Project M 3.0 Released! (Changelog in post)

[Weedy Spyze]

Metal Cavern: STGMARIOPAST_00.pac AND STGMARIOPAST_01.pac (Reinstates Mushroomy Kingdom.)
Castle Siege: STGEMBLEM.pac
Norfair: STGNORFAIR.pac (Actual stage changes are beyond my knowledge.)
Dracula's Castle: STGMANSION.pac (Reinstates Luigi's Mansion.)
Rumble Falls: STGJUNGLE.pac
Distant Planet: STGEARTH.pac
Green Hill Zone: STGGREENHILL.pac (I know that there is a version of the stage that is similar to what you were talking about. Will hunt it down later.)
Final Destination: STGFINAL.pac
Kongo Jungle: STGDONKEY.pac (Reinstates 75m... But why would you do a thing like that? )
Saffron City: STGTENGAN_#.pac (All three. Reinstates Spear Pillar.)
Hyrule Castle: STGOLDIN.pac (Reinstates Bridge of Eldin.)
Fourside: STGNEWPORK.pac (Reinstates New Pork City... If you dare. *shudder*)

Those should be accurate. Keyword "should."

Ok, thank you so much for helping me out. And lol, I didn't know Kongo Jungle replaced 75m, so perhaps it will survive the cut after all. I just wish it was Melee's KJ instead. And it really is a pick your poison between NPC and Fourside. Maybe I'll just leave it in. I did find fighting Porky to the Fourside theme in SSE oddly entertaining.

For curiosity's sake, what stage did Fountain of Dreams replace? Mario Bros?

For the stages you also need to delete the rel file if it has one in the module folder.

I'll keep a look out for that as well then, thanks.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I think it replaced mario bros. since in classic I fought ROB there.

 

[Yeerk]

edit: Derp. Wrong thread.

Thanks Strong Bad I didn't realize that affected percentages AND replays.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeerk: Go into VS mode settings and set Damage Gauge to On. Replays should then work.

 

[Sean & Richmond]

Dear Project M Team,

 

[Kati]

Just finished a fun 2 player session on All Star. Thank you (PMBR) for adding Roy and Mewtwo into it!

 

[John12346]

Just a random thought that's been on my mind...

It seems like that characters that weren't part of the top tier lineup of Melee(that includes bad Melee chars and Brawl newcomers alike) always appear to get shafted in followup patches. When one of these chars seems to approach Fox/Falco/Jiggz/idk levels of goodness, they seem to take the nerfhammer right in the face while the Melee greats remain untouched, likely because they are meant to remain constants in this always changing game.

And those characters remaining unchanged through this game's lifespan, I completely understand. I'm not against chars like Fox and Falco and Jiggz and everyone else who was top/high tier in Melee keeping what makes them absurdly good chars, but where's the love for everyone else...?

Of course, maybe I'm mistaken and all these nerfs actually are warranted, but it is a bit of a disturbing trend I've been seeing between updates. And I'm not bashing this or any other update or anything, I love the work you guys have been doing! But... I did want to point this out, so...

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Just a random thought that's been on my mind...

It seems like that characters that weren't part of the top tier lineup of Melee(that includes bad Melee chars and Brawl newcomers alike) always appear to get shafted in followup patches. When one of these chars seems to approach Fox/Falco/Jiggz/idk levels of goodness, they seem to take the nerfhammer right in the face while the Melee greats remain untouched, likely because they are meant to remain constants in this always changing game.

And those characters remaining unchanged through this game's lifespan, I completely understand. I'm not against chars like Fox and Falco and Jiggz and everyone else who was top/high tier in Melee keeping what makes them absurdly good chars, but where's the love for everyone else...?

Of course, maybe I'm mistaken and all these nerfs actually are warranted, but it is a bit of a disturbing trend I've been seeing between updates. And I'm not bashing this or any other update or anything, I love the work you guys have been doing! But... I did want to point this out, so...

While I'm not so sure you're right, I have noticed how bad a character Ness is in tourneys (he gets DEVASTATED by Marth), yet he doesn't really get improvements.

Lucas, on the other hand, is fine. He might as well be considered spacie good now. Same with Mario, he's soooo good now. But, again, I don't know if this is a valid argument other than that. People who main characters other than the top 7 Melee combatants (Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Shiek, Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon) would be better able to address your concern.

 

[standardtoaster]

Almost every single "nerf" we do is to improve the character's overall design.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Almost every single "nerf" we do is to improve the character's overall design.

**** balance, I don`t care about balance and since I don`t care you guys should completely change the game because of what one person says.

 

[John12346]

Well as I said I don't know that much aside from what I've seen in tournies and the changelists, but it was just an afterthought, I suppose.

I just get that feeling because I see formerly good characters become much less effective while spaceez and the like more or less get to keep all of their perks. My ideal way of adjusting the characters would have Melee's Top 8 or so(whoever more or less remained unchanged from Melee to P:M) unchanged, and then adjusting everyone else to be good enough to rival those positions, but that's just my own crummy, uneducated philosophy on character design.

I'll just let it rock 'cause P:M is awesome, but you can see where I'm coming from, right?

 

[Shadic]

That's basically what we're doing, but some characters end up with stupid stuff that we miss in development. Examples:

• Ike/Lucario in 2.0/2.1
• Sonic in 2.5
• Ivysaur in 2.6

These characters generally have one or two attributes that make them fairly shallow and "flowchart" while still being abnormally effective, even compared to Melee high tiers. Generally we go after the most problematic aspects in the following patch, and then make follow-up balancing adjustments after that, once we can see what they're lacking. I don't think too many people are complaining that Ike, Lucario, or Sonic are in bad places for 3.0... And honestly, I think Ivysaur will be generally fine after the dust settles on her, even without any "Project M Next Version" buffs.

The other problem with characters having single polarizing attributes that define their entire gameplan is that it stunts the characters in other respects, so it's infeasible for us to judge where they're at without that particular tool.

 

[trojanpooh]

That hadn't even occurred to me, it's actually kind of brilliant. Like, I got that characters got nerfed for being too one dimensional, but explicitly choosing not to try to fix them entirely right then and there is genius. If a character is bad the fans will try much harder to make them work which makes your job much easier and also indirectly results in major player input. Kudos, PMBR, kudos.

 

[Kally Wally]

If a character is bad the fans will try much harder to make them work which makes your job much easier and also indirectly results in major player input.

[collapse=And yet...]

 

[John12346]

I was gonna say something to the effect of trojanpoo myself. I've always been against a character being able to base their gameplan on a single move or two or being too braindead, and yet I didn't even realize that these updates were fixing just that issue in most cases. That is some good work right there in retrospect now that I'm observing what most of these changes actually were. So yeah, now I understand what's going on, good job.

Altho I'm still not sure what chars like GaW and Dedede are doing with nerfs because I thought they weren't very good chars but I can probably attribute that to me not knowing anything about the game

 

[trojanpooh]

Again, it's not necessarily about being too good, it's about being boring. I'm not positive because I haven't played a lot of high level PM against many people yet, but when I use Dedede I mostly spam dees, grab, and fair people. There isn't a lot going on there.

 

[John12346]

Well, it's all fine and good if each character is modeled to be able to think on their feet and use more of their moveset, but we can't forget that they still need some love in the 'being a good character' department. I feel like the priorities of what might constitute a cast update are gonna switch at some point from the former to the latter once each characters' gameplan is more firmly established and doesn't ultimately revolve around 'press the same button in these billion different scenarios.'

 

[bubbaking]

Just gotta accept that spacees are the best. The one true constant of Smash. Everone raves about how Eli is so incredible and then M2K comes and 4-stocked him with Fox not even a couple months ago. Just a couple weeks ago, Zero's Fox came out of nowhere and triumphed over JCaesar and everyone else at two back-to-back MD/VA tournaments. Every bracket can now be split into two phases:

1. Survive against the diversity of the cast.
2. Figure out how to beat Fox at the top (if he doesn't take you out beforehand).

Just like Melee. Can't wait to see how APEX turns out.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just gotta accept that spacees are the best. The one true constant of Smash. Everone raves about how Eli is so incredible and then M2K comes and 4-stocked him with Fox not even a couple months ago. Just a couple weeks ago, Zero's Fox came out of nowhere and triumphed over JCaesar and everyone else at two back-to-back MD/VA tournaments. Every bracket can now be split into two phases:

1. Survive against the diversity of the cast.
2. Figure out how to beat Fox at the top (if he doesn't take you out beforehand).

Just like Melee. Can't wait to see how APEX turns out.

I sincerely hope this is not an approach the PM:BR advocates or applies.

Of course the 'changes to spacies' thread a while back demonstrated this a real tender topic, so as someone who will prolly never compete in a tourney and just wants a good game to play with his friends, let Fox stay at the top, I guess.

 

[MagnesD3]

I sincerely hope this is not an approach the PM:BR advocates or applies.

Of course the 'changes to spacies' thread a while back demonstrated this a real tender topic, so as someone who will prolly never compete in a tourney and just wants a good game to play with his friends, let Fox stay at the top, I guess.

No Im sure if after the dust settled for a few years and the spacies were all you saw winning tourneys that the PMBR would finally change them but right now I think they see no need to.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I don't think too many people are complaining that Ike, Lucario, or Sonic are in bad places for 3.0...

Probably because they just accepted that he's too boring, tedious and confusing of a character to figure out how to play as now and just switched to somebody else.

Seriously, 3.0 Sonic makes me miss 2.6b Sonic. I'm finally starting to get the hang of it, but I find myself getting bored when I play as him. Kind of a killjoy since I originally only got this game for Sonic to begin with. Aside from his aerial side-b, f-air, b-air, u-tilt and d-smash, he honestly feels worse than his Brawl counterpart now. To me, anyway.

I'm sure the majority still thinks otherwise, though. I know I unfortunately have no choice but to either deal with it and keep trying to figure out how the hell this character works now, or just play one of my many other mains. L-Canceling feeling off to me now doesn't help either.

Which is something I've been meaning to ask about since 3.0's release but held off of until now since I figured it was just me. Was L-Canceling changed at all? I got it down to muscle memory in all other versions of P:M, but when I play 3.0 it seems that it barely ever works like the timing has changed for everyone. I went back and played older versions to test it out and still had no problems there, then went back to 3.0 and just couldn't do it to save my life.

I'm convinced that something was changed, but no one else ever brought it up so maybe it's just me, my controller, or everyone else has gotten used to the new timing and I'm too slow and need to step it up. Can someone give me some clarification on this?

 

[MonkUnit]

L-Canceling hasn't changed.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

L-Canceling hasn't changed.

So there's either something up with my controller or my game is just plain off. Guess I need more practice, then. Better start playing for several hours a day again.

Thanks for the answer, Monk. Simple and straight to the point without any nonsense. Just the kind of responses I like when asking questions.

 

[Nazo]

I'm not sure I understand,

2.6b Sonic and 3.0 Sonic are practically the exact same. The only real difference is the increase in kill power from 2.6b to 3.0.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

I'm not sure I understand,

2.6b Sonic and 3.0 Sonic are practically the exact same. The only real difference is the increase in kill power from 2.6b to 3.0.

Not at all. They feel completely different. It doesn't help that you can't walljump out of up-b or air-dodge after attack after it, you can't air-dodge out of down-b after jumping, Homing Attack's range was greatly reduced and there's a significant amount of lag/cooldown for when you can jump to do a second one or a different attacks.

In it's entirety, 3.0 Sonic is much less versatile in mobility than 2.6b Sonic. His already nerfed recover is even worse and it often feels like the only relatively safe and quick way to move along the stage is the use air side-b and well-timed jumps/hops with it.

I dunno, I prefer the typical way to move around. This just feels weird and wrong to me. I hated 2.6b Sonic but eventually got used to him. The fact that 3.0 makes me miss him is nothing but an even bigger turnoff to me.

 

[Kally Wally]

Not at all. They feel completely different. It doesn't help that you can't walljump out of up-b or air-dodge after attack after it, you can't air-dodge out of down-b after jumping,

... I don't think you could do any of those things in 2.6b.

 

[Bowser D.X]

All right downloading now, tried this out at a tournament and now I'm hooked.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

... I don't think you could do any of those things in 2.6b.

Preeetty sure you could. At least I did in mine.

This is all getting away from the initial point I was making anyway.

Edit: Ah, didn't notice the down-b part in the quote. That, I do believe was already taken out in 2.6b.

 

[Nazo]

Preeetty sure you could. At least I did in mine.

Everything you mentioned before was only possible in 2.5 ;
If they were possible in 2.6b, the PMBR would have mentioned the removal of all these things in the changelog you see before us.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Everything you mentioned before was only possible in 2.5 ;
If they were possible in 2.6b, the PMBR would have mentioned the removal of all these things in the changelog you see before us.

Changelog or not, what I'm playing in one version versus another doesn't lie.

But again, I already resolved what I initial came for, so this is all moot. Drop now, please?

 

[cmart]

Yeah all that stuff was not in 2.6. I don't know why you think it was, but when the basis of your complaint is false, it's fine for other people to call you out on it.

 

[Kati]

I know you guys must just be getting started with item tweaks but I just wanted to say that I'm loving everything so far!

Like seriously. That Pokemon Sneavil or Weavil. Damn you guys rock.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I know you guys must just be getting started with item tweaks but I just wanted to say that I'm loving everything so far!

Like seriously. That Pokemon Sneavil or Weavil. Damn you guys rock.

It's just Weavile.

And I LOVE how Latios and Latias don't have windboxes now ^_^

 

[Empyrean]

Items have changed? Ididnotnodat...I feel like an idiot right now....
...not really tho.

 

[M1ke_89]

I'm the only one that hates the "Front Air" of Marth? The attack throw your opponent very far, and that breaks the ability of Marth to create combos.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I'm the only one that hates the "Front Air" of Marth? The attack throw your opponent very far, and that breaks the ability of Marth to create combos.

Marth = Spacing
Roy = Combos

 

[M1ke_89]

Marth = Spacing
Roy = Combos

The Front Air of Roy is same than the Marth. Both don't work for combos.

 

[Player -0]

They both have the same animation but the knockback is different.

You can "combo" with Fair as Marth fine.

 

[MLGF]

F-Air is half of the Ken combo.
And you DON'T deny the Ken combo.

I don't care if standard Ken combos in todays meta is less practical, it's still amazing to pull off damn it!