Project: I (Would You Play It?)

[Kati]

Project 64 sadly is already another project in existence...

So we have to have another name. If it's true that we could find 64 models it'd be kinda cool, but I'm considering trying to keep "true to the era" if possible by not having characters that didn't exist before the N64 era (which only means messing with like, 4 characters) and trying to make somes moves for them to make more sense for games of the era if possible. (Though this is the dream of if I can fill the entire Brawl roster.)




Totally removing it would be weird, but I'm not against shortening it.

names don't really matter, and Project:_______ is a pretty silly cliche in the smash community now.

Start with the 12, but if the team actually succeeds and makes a stable build that accurately replicated ssb64 gameplay, then go for the new comers after.

 

[clubbadubba]

We could just call it "Super Smash Bros 64", as that is not actually a name of a game yet.

 

[bloodpeach]

Project ISAI is a perfectly fine working title. We can come up with a real name once we have something playable.

 

[Skrlx]

This thread has me like

 

[LiteralGrill]

Woah... We could turn off pausing during matches and have timers... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH YEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!

 

[Madao]

Anyone figure out how to change the physics yet? I mean changing the whole algorithm to make it more like SSB64.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Anyone figure out how to change the physics yet? I mean changing the whole algorithm to make it more like SSB64.

That one might be more difficult, we need to know what 64's is like so we know what to change it to, then learn how.

I can at least do some research on the how.

Edit: I'd better mention that there's no guarantee I'll get results though, mayhaps we ask the Project M team how they handled it? Maybe if we're lucky someone has already done it too and it's just hidden somewhere.

 

[Madao]

That one might be more difficult, we need to know what 64's is like so we know what to change it to, then learn how.

I can at least do some research on the how.

Edit: I'd better mention that there's no guarantee I'll get results though, mayhaps we ask the Project M team how they handled it? Maybe if we're lucky someone has already done it too and it's just hidden somewhere.

I've been debugging the game and writing down formulas / code for the past few weeks for SSB64. I've got some of the stuff down like angle, velocity, knockback, hitstun, hitlag (shield stun seems to use the same numbers as hitlag), Z-Cancelling, Crouch Canceling, etc. What I'm missing right now is stuff like angle change after bouncing off the wall. I also don't know how they alter the angle when you ground spike someone with a move that isn't a -90º angle. Looking at the sine and consine formula in assembly is a disaster! I will probably need to study some math if I ever hope understand all that code!

I can continue collecting more information, but it would be nice if other people helped as well. Also, I'm sure I'm forgetting some obscure mechanics, so I'd be greatful if anyone pointed out anything important that I haven't mentioned.

One last thing is, I won't be able to spend as much time on this stuff like I've been doing in the past few weeks, so let me know whether I should invest my time into learning more about SSB64 or Brawl? I won't be able to study both games extensively.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd say be the grand master of Smash 64, we need to know EVERYTHING possible for this to work and feel as close to 64 as possible.

I'll try and write up a master list of things that 64 had that Brawl didn't.

Also, a ton of the old threads recommend trying to use the physics in brawl+, perhaps we can find good stuff there to start with.

 

[clubbadubba]

I've been debugging the game and writing down formulas / code for the past few weeks for SSB64. I've got some of the stuff down like angle, velocity, knockback, hitstun, hitlag (shield stun seems to use the same numbers as hitlag), Z-Cancelling, Crouch Canceling, etc. What I'm missing right now is stuff like angle change after bouncing off the wall. I also don't know how they alter the angle when you ground spike someone with a move that isn't a -90º angle. Looking at the sine and consine formula in assembly is a disaster! I will probably need to study some math if I ever hope understand all that code!

If you need help understanding math stuff I can help, and a number of other people here as well

 

[Madao]

So what I guess I will do is, finish up my moveset data list (it will just have the damage and knockback values, but it will include projectiles and throws). Then maybe see if I can tweak my knockback calculator to have perfect accuracy. Then I can post both, so you guys can play around with it to get a better understanding of the physics. Then I can take a break and after that, I can just take suggestions and look into anything I've missed that other people want to know.

 

[Kati]

When Brawl+ was alive there was a thread with all the relevant codes needed to modify stuff like hitstun and physics. I can't find it now, but I found the first attempt at recreating smash 64:

"Brawl 64"

http://smashboards.com/threads/brawl-64-dont-get-hit.294893/

 

[bloodpeach]

Once I'm done doing real person stuff this week, I'll get a testing setup going. I'll try and throw some of the leftovers in there and see how it feels. Then hopefully we'll be able to know with more certainty which aspects of the physics engine are gonna be the toughest.

 

[LiteralGrill]

When Brawl+ was alive there was a thread with all the relevant codes needed to modify stuff like hitstun and physics. I can't find it now, but I found the first attempt at recreating smash 64:

"Brawl 64"

http://smashboards.com/threads/brawl-64-dont-get-hit.294893/

We might be able to beg some people who worked on Brawl+ for the codes... Maybe.

I'm thinking of making a post in the appropriate forum and announcing the project, it may get us some help and codes faster, I just want some stuff to properly pretty it up.

Edit: ALRIGHT! I'm making a wonderful master thread. I would like the names of anyone who wants to support the project and anyone who is willing to put time in to actually program so I can get those into the OP as soon as possible. I want to make this become a reality. I think you guys will like the thread, I'll get a link here when it's done.

 

[LiteralGrill]

OKAY! Sorry for the double post but here we go!

http://smashboards.com/threads/reality-64-a-smash-64-mod-for-brawl-help-needed.340730/

I know some of you guys have said you were interested in helping, be sure to let me know so I can get you on the list of team members!

 

[Kati]

I agree with every point in your proposal, but what do you mean by implementing a teleport?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I agree with every point in your proposal, but what do you mean by implementing a teleport?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Teleport_(SSB)

A little glitch people use in SSB, it's very useful.

 

[Madao]

Count me in. I'll be the grand master of Smash 64 .
When it comes to porting over Smash64 formulas, we will need to make sure that the measurements are correct. For instance moving the X position of a character by 1000 may yield significantly different results. So we need to double check on that stuff if we want to have an accurate copy. In the meantime I will studying math and other subjects and when I'm free I'll be collecting data and finishing my smash 64 work.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Count me in. I'll be the grand master of Smash 64 .
When it comes to porting over Smash64 formulas, we will need to make sure that the measurements are correct. For instance moving the X position of a character by 1000 may yield significantly different results. So we need to double check on that stuff if we want to have an accurate copy. In the meantime I will studying math and other subjects and when I'm free I'll be collecting data and finishing my smash 64 work.

Found this in another thread, might it be helpful?

 

[Madao]

Found this in another thread, might it be helpful?

That's the data for Japanese version, but I already have NTSC's character data.
What I'm missing is some moveset data (mostly projectile stuff), which I am working on this weekend. I'm also missing other obscure things, like wall bouncing (which I'll try to figure out soon).

What we will need are Brawl hackers, and possibly some artists too.

 

[LiteralGrill]

That's the data for Japanese version, but I already have NTSC's character data.
What I'm missing is some moveset data (mostly projectile stuff), which I am working on this weekend. I'm also missing other obscure things, like wall bouncing (which I'll try to figure out soon).

What we will need are Brawl hackers, and possibly some artists too.

I asked for help in the thread, we can only hope some people volunteer!

 

[mixa]

and please put some light on Congo Jungle, I don't want black characters being discriminated against once more.

 

[LiteralGrill]

and please put some light on Congo Jungle, I don't want black characters being discriminated against once more.

I'll see what I can do, I did list that I'd like to make stages better for competition if possible, that is an easy possibility.

Also, anyone here who wants to help and is good with searching I am scouring the boards for codes to implement all of the mechanics changes for Version 0.5, if anyone can provide code for any of the sections I don't have code for yet, post it here or there.

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Kati]

No one has ever complained about lighting in P:M on Kongo Jungle. Capps, don't worry about that for now. Also, as there is no barrel in the replicated version for brawl, it is already better for competition. I made a solid form of the stage seeing as it had no ceiling collisions due to the barrel.

Stages won't be an issue for the project. Just focus on character physics and obtaining code knowledge. I see the biggest issue being landing detection. In order to achieve proper landing detection in P:M, Samus' midair jump was nullified as an unforseen consequence (or something like that). Besides her, Yoshi's brawl attributes are also a hurdle that will have to be dealt with.

 

[Madao]

No one has ever complained about lighting in P:M on Kongo Jungle. Capps, don't worry about that for now. Also, as there is no barrel in the replicated version for brawl, it is already better for competition. I made a solid form of the stage seeing as it had no ceiling collisions due to the barrel.

Stages won't be an issue for the project. Just focus on character physics and obtaining code knowledge. I see the biggest issue being landing detection. In order to achieve proper landing detection in P:M, Samus' midair jump was nullified as an unforseen consequence (or something like that). Besides her, Yoshi's brawl attributes are also a hurdle that will have to be dealt with.

I agree with you about focusing on physics and code knowledge. What's different about the landing detection? That's something I never looked into yet, so I'm interested in finding out.

 

[Kati]

Brawl changed the way the game detected characters landing on stuff compared to melee. So the P:M team had to spend a gargantuan amount of time redoing the nitty gritty underlying rules of brawl's engine. I am not familiar with ssb64's technical aspects, so I'm just guessing that brawl will differ from 64 as well. But as you guys are trying to replicate all the fine details, I assume that you wish to be able to z-cancel with the exact same timing.

Iirc, melee's characters landed depending on what they were doing, whereas brawl had one central point or bone that was applied to everything. You can see this I think if you go into training with Link in vBrawl and land with a nair in slow motion. He will teleport slightly.

These are the redesigns I spoke of in the official project thread:

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/Bra...ll#ByUserID=13561&Moderated=All&Moderated=All

That link should take you to Hope4newday's vault.

 

[bloodpeach]

I don't think the landing physics changed too much between 64 and melee, so hopefully we can save a bit of work by building directly off P:M.

Also i've heard that yoshi and samus both exist in alpha stages in P:M, but have severe issues. I think yoshi's main problem is none of the devs care enough to deal with his weird mechanics, but I think samus may have some more serious challeneges.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i...thought the idea was to make improvements on the original 64

 

[Madao]

After I'm finished with my current work (hopefully this week), I'll look into landing detection. All I know right now, is the variable that shows whether the character is in the air or not. Any extra info on landing detection would be helpful.

i...thought the idea was to make improvements on the original 64

If you mean hack the n64 rom, I don't think anyone here knows how to hack n64 roms.

 

[bloodpeach]

Until someone reverse engineers the 64 file structure and compression algortihms, a 64 mod is pretty much impossible. Maybe it'd be possible with some extravagant GS codes, but I don't think anyone currently in the community has the skills required to do that. Perhaps if Madao makes a breakthrough, it'd be a possibility. Even then, the mod would be very imporactial to run on an actual console, as it would require an absurb amount of time entering GS codes (unless there is a shortcut I'm unaware of), flash cart ($200) or custom cart (impossible?).

I haven't given up hope, but think of it this way: if we mod brawl, samus will get MISSILES

 

[Kati]

Brawl is the most moddable. It affords you the most stage, song, and if you wish, character slots. N64 models are available for every 64 veteran, and are easily modified for your custom colour desires. For instance, with this project, one could have a 64 model over every one of Samus' but that would even include her blue team colour which is not available in ssb64 unless playing on teams. Even custom sound effects are now possible.

Just look at melee. Sure, it can be modded, but has anything really been done? not to the extent that modding brawl has. From what I read when I recently got back into ssb64 four weeks ago, n64's lag and are often modded to make up for it. I'm not sure if ssb64 is known to lag during teams though, so my last point is only viable if someone can confirm.

Yoshi has severe issues. Not gamebreaking like Samus, but his egg toss works quite differently, so unless you 64 players aren't as stubborn as the melee purists, Yoshi presents a comparable challenge.

i...thought the idea was to make improvements on the original 64

Second sentence in the op dude.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Second sentence in the op dude.

you should read the entire first page dude

meh nvm i'll stick to OG

 

[Kati]

^Smart.

---

Capps I noticed that you already have obtained many codes. If you are missing anything in particular, I have the brawl+ codeset and could quickly search it or better yet post it if it isn't available elsewhere.

 

[bloodpeach]

The codes are mostly left over from the old brawl 64 projects, and a couple of the miscellaneous onces were before the days of brawlbox afaik. I'm not really in tune with the barwl modding scene though, I just kinda went where google took me.

Seems like you know whats going on up there tho. If you could find and annotated version of the Brawl+ or P:M or any big mod that would be a HUGE help. None of us really have extensive brawl modding experience, so anything to look at would be pretty helpful.

 

[KnitePhox]

there's easy ways to add codes to a gameshark quickly, use parallel cable, win98 and some cool kid software, all of which i have. you edit a .txt file on modern pc/phone/tablet/ANYTHING THAT EDITS .TXT and send the contents to the gameshark with old pc + flash drive + parallel cable.

but you only get 250 lines to change per gaming session and each line can have a different value depending on the address changed

non-perfect example: 250 codes in one session that start with "800xxxxx"
125 codes in one session that start with "810xxxxx"
or MIXED codes 200 "800xxxxx" codes with 25 "801xxxxx"

there are about 4 common variants of address changes for ssb64 iirc


it would probably be easier to patch a rom, test on a 64 flashcart, then patch an original cartridge with my cool kid setup

but i dunno about rom hacking

i can dump my own 64 roms and i assume patch carts as well


i got a softmodded wii i'd try this if it ever came to even pre-alpha stages

 

[clubbadubba]

If it ever gets to the point where a single character is holding the project back, just skip them, even if its one of the original 12.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

ssb64 with real DI would be awespme

 

[Sangoku]

ssb64 with real DI would be awespme

It would be awesome as another game, but that's not what 64 purists want. I for example would still prefer no DI as it keeps the nature of the game and won't significantly change the way the game is played.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

"purists" wouldn't want this to begin with

 

[Sangoku]

Well by purist I meant people who exclusively play smash 64 or find it the best of the 3 game by a fair margin.