Project: I (Would You Play It?)

[LiteralGrill]

Well I'd prefer brawl graphics, but how will you do the graphics for added/changed moves? Also how would you use n64 graphics? I don't think anyone has decompressed and unpacked SSB64 yet. I liked SSB64's sounds though. Captain Falcon sounded awesome.

Surprisingly some people did set out to make a texture hack for Brawl so all the characters and stages would look oldschool, so it could be possible depending.

And if no one has decompressed and unpacked it yet it's about time someone tried!

And I'll remember you when I need help, I'm currently just trying to see what might be possible within Brawl or even the N64 data to figure out what is the best option going forward and getting ideas like graphics and such.

 

[mixa]

lol "project Isai"

inb4 Isai pulling an Alan Moore

 

[clubbadubba]

I think that graphics is probably the least concern for a lot of us, seeing as how we deal with 1999 graphics all day everyday with no problems. I'd say do whichever requires the least work from you so more time can be spent focusing on adjusting the physics and balance, and adding more stages and characters.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think that graphics is probably the least concern for a lot of us, seeing as how we deal with 1999 graphics all day everyday with no problems. I'd say do whichever requires the least work from you so more time can be spent focusing on adjusting the physics and balance, and adding more stages and characters.

Good call, time to do some studying. If you could import a majority of Smash 64 code in I'd bet the old graphics might be easier, but if you had to work on it from scratch the newer graphics would be better.

After you could get an exact replica of the old characters running, then you could slowly start asking balance questions which I know some will need to be done.

Time to dig in deep and research... The not as fun part

 

[Madao]

Good call, time to do some studying. If you could import a majority of Smash 64 code in I'd bet the old graphics might be easier, but if you had to work on it from scratch the newer graphics would be better.

After you could get an exact replica of the old characters running, then you could slowly start asking balance questions which I know some will need to be done.

Time to dig in deep and research... The not as fun part

What do you need to research? Also I think it might be easier to modify variables, rather than changing actual code instructions, when it comes to game physics. What I mean is, take weight for example, it might be easier to just convert the weight values, rather than changing the entire algorithm.

If someone made a calculator for Brawl's physics, balancing would be a lot better and easier. Also when it comes to graphics, someone will either have to do them from scratch or find a way to export graphics from SSB64, so that means we may need some artists.

 

[bloodpeach]

Graphics exporting has already been done I think. It ... kinda leaves something to be desired though. And it's a lot of effort for little reward.

Editing movesets/character data I dont think will be too hard, judging from the vast number of scrubby brawl moveset mods I've seen. Movesets and character info are stored in nice seperate files which have a nice set of modification tools.

The hard parts I think will be modifying animations (3D is hard) and changes in the physics engine (will require some assembly work). Again some of this work may have been done already, but I can't vouch for the quality.

Also, the important part is that lag canceling has already been implemented, whether or not you have to press a button to do it is trival. BIG PICTURE, KIDDOS.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Alright, from the bit of fast looking I've done it does seem to lead toward taking Brawl as it and trying to change the physics, the graphics work is a lot to do for very little reward.

I do think the biggest hurdle will be getting the physics to match 64 and getting certain moves back to how they function in 64, but the latter shouldn't be AS bad.

 

[Madao]

Alright, from the bit of fast looking I've done it does seem to lead toward taking Brawl as it and trying to change the physics, the graphics work is a lot to do for very little reward.

I do think the biggest hurdle will be getting the physics to match 64 and getting certain moves back to how they function in 64, but the latter shouldn't be AS bad.

I don't think the physics should be too hard, unless you want to implement something that has been removed. When I looked at the in game code, i was surprised to see some of the same mechanics in Brawl. For instance, the knockback cap is 2500 in both games. Well, we already have most of the moveset data and about half (rough estimate) of the physics for SSB64.

Have you used PSA before? It shouldn't be too hard to edit movesets. Also when it comes to how accurate you want to copy the mechanics, it's best not to spend several hours just to get a bit more precision.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't think the physics should be too hard, unless you want to implement something that has been removed. When I looked at the in game code, i was surprised to see some of the same mechanics in Brawl. For instance, the knockback cap is 2500 in both games. Well, we already have most of the moveset data and about half (rough estimate) of the physics for SSB64.

Have you used PSA before? It shouldn't be too hard to edit movesets. Also when it comes to how accurate you want to copy the mechanics, it's best not to spend several hours just to get a bit more precision.

I'd want it to feel as close to playing Smash 64 as possible minus whatever character adjustments are needed for balance (Pikachu MUST DIE! )

Again, I'd start by making the original cast accurately and having all the original stages (including Battlefield and Final Destination and that metal mario stage) then build from there.

 

[clubbadubba]

-Add hitstun
-Add shieldstun
-eliminate aerial lag (with button requirement or not, your choice)
-eliminate air dodges
-eliminate spot dodges

that's probably like 80% of the physics changes.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

not 64 controller? gross

 

[clubbadubba]

if someone can make a keyboard adapter to an n64, i'm sure someone can whip up a 64 controller adapter to a wii

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

http://www.raphnet-tech.com/products/n64_to_wii/

didn't feel right when I tried this on ssb VC

 

[Sedda]

yay go capps

 

[Zenyore]

Due to the different gravity, physics and speeds of Brawl which just seem to improve on those of Melee, this project could be a fvckton of work. Unless you got a serious team working on this, an actual remake / improved version worthy of being played seems hard to attain.

If you do take on this project, then obv begin with the 12 chars and the original 64 maps (already implemented in PM) along with FD and work your way from there. Character rebalancing / redesigned movesets should be done following consultation of a few 64 veterans. As mentioned, a consensus on whatever is unnecessary. Things like Z cancel which fireblaster takes so seriously for some reason are secondary.

 

[mixa]

Make it so that when airborne and about to land, a character will instead drop through the platform if input is down. The way it is this only happens when you Up-B, and I like mobility.

 

[bloodpeach]

-Add hitstun
-Add shieldstun
-eliminate aerial lag (with button requirement or not, your choice)
-eliminate air dodges
-eliminate spot dodges

Remove DI
Remove Wall and ceiling techs
Remove perfect shield
Remove ledge hop
Remove wall jump
Remove Light Shield
Remove Pummel
Remove Grab Release
Remove Charged Smashes
Implement Teleport
Implement Taunt Cancel

And hitstun/shield stun likely wouldnt work (and may not even be possible). Rather it will require tweaking of every single character's moveset. I dont count that as a physics change though, its really a move set change.

Assuming that the same knockback cap = same knockback physics is dangerous. Air movement works diferently in Brawl/P:M and air acceleration and max air speed play a big factor in knock back.

Brawl randomly (so they say, no one seems to know or sure) adds 1-3 frames of input lag arbitrarily.

 

[breakthrough]

I don't know the physics to Brawl but don't forget OoS usmash and stick jump etc

 

[bloodpeach]

Usmash OoS is in P:M. No idea about stick jump.

 

[Fireblaster]

Why would stick jump need to be implemented? It's not a feature that got removed.

 

[breakthrough]

I don't know the physics to Brawl

That's why I included this important part of the sentence. I didn't bother to look at the physics and if it's there or not, I don't play brawl at all, literally.

 

[banze]

Oh god ! I would play it until my controller have turned into dust

 

[Madao]

Make it so that when airborne and about to land, a character will instead drop through the platform if input is down. The way it is this only happens when you Up-B, and I like mobility.

Isn't that how it already is in brawl? Or are you saying we should keep it that way?

And hitstun/shield stun likely wouldnt work (and may not even be possible). Rather it will require tweaking of every single character's moveset. I dont count that as a physics change though, its really a move set change.

Assuming that the same knockback cap = same knockback physics is dangerous. Air movement works diferently in Brawl/P:M and air acceleration and max air speed play a big factor in knock back.

Brawl randomly (so they say, no one seems to know or sure) adds 1-3 frames of input lag arbitrarily.

What do you mean by hitstun/shield likely wouldn't work? At least in SSB64, hitstun is simply floor(initial knockback / 1.875) and hitlag (which i believe is the same as shield stun) is floor(Damage / 3 + 5). Only way movesets effect these is by effect, damage, and knockback. To my knowledge, there's no specific variable inside of the moveset data for hitlag and hitstun. I'm sure it's also formula based in Brawl as well.

Also I know the physics are different in Brawl, but I was just saying how it's interesting how much stuff they kept the same (like electric attacks increasing hitlag by 1.5x). It's not hard to check the in game data anyway. I just hope my laptop can run dolphin, if you guys actually decide to work on this project.

 

[MrMarbles]

Implement Taunt Cancel

this

 

[LiteralGrill]

Don't worry, as silly as this will sound I did think to myself "gotta remember to put in taunt cancel".

But back to seriousness, I'm on board to try and make this happen. My hacking skills are not the best but with some help I know I can find ways to be useful. If anybody else is in or might know hackers interested in trying this, send em here!

Edit: Just had a strange realization that should have been obvious, we'd have to remove forward b moves to make it real to the 64 version. Interesting.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Why would stick jump need to be implemented? It's not a feature that got removed.

he might've said that because stick jump goes higher than c button jump in 64, whereas stick jump is same height as x/y jumps in melee/brawl

 

[clubbadubba]

Edit: Just had a strange realization that should have been obvious, we'd have to remove forward b moves to make it real to the 64 version. Interesting.

leaving them in might be pretty cool. It would give a lot of characters more recovery options so their might not be so many gimptastic matchups.

 

[Fireblaster]

leaving them in might be pretty cool. It would give a lot of characters more recovery options so their might not be so many gimptastic matchups.

Fox needs to have a forward B nowhere near as good for recovery as the one in melee then.

 

[LiteralGrill]

leaving them in might be pretty cool. It would give a lot of characters more recovery options so their might not be so many gimptastic matchups.

I could see them being added, it would add a lot to 64 to have an extra special per character, more to explore! Besides, this is supposed to add some new stuff to 64 right?

 

[clubbadubba]

@Fireblaster, yea that could be a balance issue, but that can be dealt with later and things like that can and will need to be patched. I doubt the first try will result perfect balance.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So, as it looks like we'll be adding a special attack, is there anything Smash 64 is lacking that a later game added people might want?

 

[KnitePhox]

is there anything Smash 64 is lacking that a later game added people might want?

spot dodge
directional throws

all i got for now

 

[Madao]

So, as it looks like we'll be adding a special attack, is there anything Smash 64 is lacking that a later game added people might want?

Wall teching

 

[Sangoku]

Personally I wouldn't want wall teching and spot dodges, but you know... Don't mind me if I'm alone.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hm, I figured wall teching and spot dodges might be a point of contention.

I bet there are people on both sides for sure, I don't want to take away from the integrity of smash 64 TOO much, maybe we can try it both ways and see what feels better.

 

[clubbadubba]

I'd rather not have them. Wall teching won't matter because with all the extra stages wall teching won't be a big deal. Spot dodging would be a pretty significant change. Not a deal breaker, but I'd avoid adding in overarching movement tech additions like spot dodging, wave dashing, power shielding, air dodging, etc.

 

[LiteralGrill]

What are thoughts on Brawl's snapping to the ledge?

 

[Sangoku]

Wall teching won't matter because with all the extra stages wall teching won't be a big deal.

I don't understand that part. You mean all the stages that will be added will have no solid ledges à la Congo?

 

[Madao]

Hm, I figured wall teching and spot dodges might be a point of contention.

I bet there are people on both sides for sure, I don't want to take away from the integrity of smash 64 TOO much, maybe we can try it both ways and see what feels better.

I know that it takes more work, but if you get far enough, you could have an options menu to turn certain things on or off.

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't understand that part. You mean all the stages that will be added will have no solid ledges à la Congo?

I meant wall combo's won't be common because there would be so many wall-less stages. Dreamland technically has walls but the situations in which they could be used are much less than Hyrule for example. Maybe di'ing into the wall while recovering could lead straight into wall tech, which could be pretty annoying i suppose. Whether it has a big impact or not still not a fan.

What are thoughts on Brawl's snapping to the ledge?

No.



@Madao, that would be awesome if it isn't too difficult.