Project F[allacy]

[Machiavelli.CF]

Do you often passive-aggressively grumble about the dim few of the community? Do you like argumentation and debate? Are you a Philosophy major? Good news; Machiavelli's got a thread for you! Project M is a unique game where the community has the ability to patch characters, so people often debate over what ought and ought not to be in the game. Post here with your callouts about instances of fallacious reasoning you've seen in the scene, so that you may become an intelligent, beautiful, and constructive member of the family!

Argument from the "Lesser Evil"
Deflecting balance concerns on the basis that there are "worse" cases elsewhere.
Person A: "I don't like Toon Link's down throw to up B." Person B: "But FOX has up throw to up air, AND a free Up Smash!"

Appeal to difficulty
Asserting that something powerful is balanced because said move or character takes a lot of (technical) skill to use.
"Fox is made balanced because he is the hardest character, and takes the most skillz."

The Silver Bullet Fallacy
Insisting that a move is balanced just because a counter exists for it.
"Ivy 2.6's leaf is fine; just power shield it!"

Appeal to Top Tier
Maintaining that a character shouldn't be nerfed because of another character entirely.
Why are we nerfing Ivysaur when Fox and Falco still exist?

Stagelists's Fallacy
Arguing that just because a stage has no ban-worthy traits on its own, that it deserves to be part of a stagelist.
"All seven Pokemon Stadiums should be legal within our 3 ban system, which only features one high ceiling stage."

The Band-aid Fallacy
Suggesting that, because a character is weak in an area, they should be given something there.
"Dedede has a lot of trouble with projectile spam. He should get a buffed Waddle Dee Toss so he can deal with it."

Recovery Cherry-picking
Claiming that recoveries in PM are too good, while simultaneously complaining that characters like Roy have a bad recovery.
"Dude, tethers are unedgeguardable!" ...Later... "Wow, Yoshi's recovery sucks. Brawl up-B pls!"

Appeal to Tradition Melee
When something is deemed normal/natural/correct on the basis that it exists a certain way in Melee.
Luigi has years of metagame behind him in Melee, You can't change him! You must live with all Melee's good and bad.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I found this funny for some reason but I can't quite tell why
It's probably the recognition that these are the exact kinds of logic you find here every day

 

[Fortress]

Is this real.

 

[Toph_87]

Haha, this was a good read. Thanks. Gave me a good chuckle.

 

[E2xD]

Heh, this is awesome.

 

[SSS]

mmm fallacies.

so important.

people need to learn how to think properly. i'm glad other people are as concerned about fallacies as i am.

 

[Phaiyte]

damn son..

 

[Japsy]

The Silver Bullet Fallacy
Insisting that a move is balanced just because a counter exists for it.
"Ivy 2.6's leaf is fine; just power shield it!"

This sounds like every items arguement ever. "Final Smashes should be in, you can dodge them!"

 

[SSS]

Guys you don't understand the turtles' movements on the Mario Bros stage are REALLY PREDICTABLE.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Appeal to Melee should replace Because Melee, it sounds a lot nicer.

"He should get a buffed Waddle Dee Toss" This is literally like one guy that, not to say it's any less annoying, but for real. PM's seen the suggestion, calm down dude, haha

Hopefully no one actually complains about Toon Link though, I've seen a few here and there, but come on people. They boy's got some stuff but nothing complaint worthy.

 

[arcticfox8]

This is real life
I love you man

 

[Meechman400]

Argument from the "Lesser Evil"
Deflecting balance concerns on the basis that there are "worse" cases elsewhere.
Person A: "I don't like Toon Link's down throw to up B." Person B: "But FOX has up throw to up air, AND a free Up Smash!"

If I had a nickel..

 

[Deleted member]

Hopefully no one actually complains about Toon Link though, I've seen a few here and there, but come on people. They boy's got some stuff but nothing complaint worthy.

Toonlink is BROOOOOOOOOOKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN

If I had a nickel..

Shut up keem you don't even go to dbdi anymore.

 

[GaretHax]

Lol, Unnecessary but perfect, thanks for the laugh.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Lesser evil seems like something that may start reasonable that is often taken to extremes like comparing anything good someone has to the worst **** of the spacies, who aren't yet fully balanced if I had to guess.

But if many characters can do a really good thing, then I think saying "this is a lesser version of that" seems like a reasonable argument to make actually, and not a fallacy. You do need to balance around what is reasonable and what other characters are allowed to have is a good metric of that.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Don't forget the I'm Terrible With My Main But It Was All Your Doing and Has Nothing To Do With Me So He Needs a Buff.

I main Fox and I've lost every Marth matchup so far. You totally f***ed his metagame, some improvements need to be made.

 

[Phaiyte]

Don't forget the I'm Terrible With My Main But It Was All Your Doing and Has Nothing To Do With Me So He Needs a Buff.

I main Fox and I've lost every Marth matchup so far. You totally f***ed his metagame, some improvements need to be made.

Ahhhh yes. I call this the MOBA syndrome. It's everyone else in the universe's fault except yours for everything that goes wrong.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Some of these are fine, like why nerf Ivysaur when Fox is top tier? That's terrible balancing.

Fox is still killing people at 70% with up smash and yet the balance of the entire game is ignored "because Fox".

Why does Fox still exist in this game? I mean, really?

"THIS IS THE CHARACTER WE ALL PLAYED IN MELEE, HE MUST BE THE SAME AND/OR BETTER"

 

[shairn]

Some of these are fine, like why nerf Ivysaur when Fox is top tier? That's terrible balancing.

Fox is still killing people at 70% with up smash and yet the balance of the entire game is ignored "because Fox".

Why does Fox still exist in this game? I mean, really?

"THIS IS THE CHARACTER WE ALL PLAYED IN MELEE, HE MUST BE THE SAME AND/OR BETTER"

Shouldn't have said that, you'll have to merge this thread with the tier list thread soon.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nah, me saying a game is terribly balanced doesn't have much to do with the tier list specifically.

I'm just saying that some of the "fallacies" in the OP are right.

People just throw the word "fallacy" around when they don't have a counter argument.

"Really though, why did ivysaur get nerfed and not fox?"

"THATS A LOGICAL FALLACY LALALALALA NOT LISTENING LALALALALA"

 

[DrinkingFood]

Saying PM is terribly balanced is a bit overboard
Even if you consider fox blatantly number one, you can't help but recognize that he gap there is much smaller than it is in melee. And of course brawl.

 

[Phaiyte]

Nah, me saying a game is terribly balanced doesn't have much to do with the tier list specifically.

I'm just saying that some of the "fallacies" in the OP are right.

People just throw the word "fallacy" around when they don't have a counter argument.

"Really though, why did ivysaur get nerfed and not fox?"

"THATS A LOGICAL FALLACY LALALALALA NOT LISTENING LALALALALA"

Yet Fox STILL hasn't won any real tournaments lately.

 

[Giygacoal]

Is Fox not winning because he's well balanced, or because people are simply more interested in using other characters?

 

[Comeback Kid]

Rebalancing requires nerfing, by definition almost.

It's like saying, "Why rebuild this character at all when this one is already considered really good?"

Um, because Fox isn't being almost totally rebuilt like Ivy so any polish tweaks are going to be miniscule?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Rebalancing requires nerfing, by definition almost.

wow

I did not just read that.

... wow.

 

[Phaiyte]

Is Fox not winning because he's well balanced, or because people are simply more interested in using other characters?

I recall seeing a chart that put him at the top of the popularity list in tournaments. It's a little weird that that's happening with no truly positive results considering how "OP" people think he is.

 

[Onomanic]

I was listening to grooveshark when I opened this thread and the next song came on. It was Tupac. 2spooky4me

 

[Giygacoal]

I recall seeing a chart that put him at the top of the popularity list in tournaments. It's a little weird that that's happening with no truly positive results considering how "OP" people think he is.

In my opinion, Fox isn't necessarily at the top of tier lists for being "overpowered" in a typical sense, but rather because he's probably the least niche character in the game. Similarly, I think the mid tier characters in PM are mid tier simply because their viability averages are more influenced by the given stages and opponents.

 

[Mr.Random]

In my opinion, Fox isn't necessarily at the top of tier lists for being "overpowered" in a typical sense, but rather because he's probably the least niche character in the game. Similarly, I think the mid tier characters in PM are mid tier simply because their viability averages are more influenced by the given stages and opponents.

It's also the fact that he has the advantage of years of metagame behind him and people don't want to explore other characters. Which rubs me the wrong way.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I'm pretty sure the overlaying reason some people aren't fond of Fox and Falco is because, due to their lack of overly significant changes (besides the nerfs on shine's frame one and distance decaying lasers), it means Melee players pretty much get a free ride when transitioning to this mod. That's something that understandably won't sit well with everyone, as it means people who are trying the new characters like Lucas or Charizard (just naming some, don't really know how they are in the competitive scene) are going to have their 2 or so years of experience going up against Fox and Falco's 13 years of experience.

It also means people like Mang0 and Mew2King can either win tournaments or at the very least place very highly just by sticking with their usual Fox, Falco, and Marth. With a bit of the rest of the top 5 as well, to an extent, but the changes like Shiek's d-throw nerf tend to discourage them, lest they mess up their Melee skills and strategies.

The justification for keeping them nearly unchanged to me personally isn't that that's how they were in Melee and that any changes would be blasphemous, but rather that the free rides are what helped Project M gain traction as a mod that could be taken seriously enough to be seriously played and allowed in tournaments, spreading its popularity to the point it currently is right now.

While I personally would like to see some gradual changes to the two spacies, just remember they're one of the very reasons a lot of us ended up hearing about this wonderful mod in the first place. After all, while Fox and Falco are rather notorious in some circles, remember that they're not exactly unbeatable. At the very least, however bad they are they'll never be Brawl Meta Knight bad.

 

[Lizalfos]

I think people who want to change Fox/Falco just because they dislike leaving the top tiers largely unchanged from melee don't understand that every other character has been redone and has the capacity to be better characters than them. So far, a lot of characters that didn't win tournaments before project M are now; I see no problem with keeping Fox and Falco the way they are. I never played Melee, but Falco is my favorite character to play by far. No characters seem to require nerfs immediately, so I think buffing characters that are completely unpopular and never win tournaments is the best course of action. I wish I saw more Puff, Olimar, and Ivysaur (after nerfs nobody seems to play him). Its also really early to claim that we need to make any specific changes at all. Just a few month ago I had never heard of the arty vortex, but now Gannon seems to be a very good character because of it.

 

[Phaiyte]

A lot of people still play Ivy and place well with it. Personally I kinda wish Olimar was a bit more static. His Pikmin just look like a random factor and that alone really puts off a lot of people from taking him seriously. Puff is fine the way she is just no one plays it. I would gladly trade Rest for even more aerial mobility though. That would be so sick.

 

[shapular]

Appeal to Tradition Melee
When something is deemed normal/natural/correct on the basis that it exists a certain way in Melee.
Luigi has years of metagame behind him in Melee, You can't change him! You must live with all Melee's good and bad.

I like this thread overall, but "because Melee" is the stated reason for many of PM's changes. Like, "Why is crouch cancelling so good?" "That's exactly how it was in Melee." "Why can't I grab the ledge while facing away from it?" "Because Melee." "Why can characters grab people behind them?" "Because Melee." "Why was Falco re-cloned and why have neither him nor Fox gotten any significant nerfs from Melee?" "Because Melee."

 

[Phaiyte]

I like this thread overall, but "because Melee" is the stated reason for many of PM's changes. Like, "Why is crouch cancelling so good?" "That's exactly how it was in Melee." "Why can't I grab the ledge while facing away from it?" "Because Melee." "Why can characters grab people behind them?" "Because Melee." "Why was Falco re-cloned and why have neither him nor Fox gotten any significant nerfs from Melee?" "Because Melee."

- People ***** about how good crouch cancelling is in this game, but they don't ***** about it in Melee even though it's the exact same mechanic.
- There's never really a problem with not being able to grab the ledge because you're not facing it. If you miss the ledge like that, it's because /you/ suck.
- Characters can grab behind them because of the hitbox. **** happens. Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to perform cross-overs in other fighting games with large aerial hitboxes.
- There's no such thing as a 'clone' in this game and people are basically stupid to believe so, if not incredibly new to the game.
- There were fairly significant nerfs even though they really weren't even all that necessary. Neither of them ever win big tournaments before or after those nerfs despite the raging popularity of them, even amongst some of the best players in the world. So like, whatever man. Clearly they're some kind of balanced in this game, and it's not like their playstyles are completely unfun to play with or against unless you just plain suck at and/or new to the game.

 

[DahremRuhar]

OP, I love you.
I love you because the existence of Project M has been both a blessing and a curse. So many new users... So much complaining... You are the light in the darkness. The... uh... good metaphor... among... stuff.

But seriously, anyone wanna take bets on how long it takes for this thread to descend into pandemonium?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

One of the best threads existing

 

[Giygacoal]

I think people who want to change Fox/Falco just because they dislike leaving the top tiers largely unchanged from melee don't understand that every other character has been redone and has the capacity to be better characters than them. So far, a lot of characters that didn't win tournaments before project M are now; I see no problem with keeping Fox and Falco the way they are. I never played Melee, but Falco is my favorite character to play by far. No characters seem to require nerfs immediately, so I think buffing characters that are completely unpopular and never win tournaments. I wish I saw more Puff, Olimar, and Ivysaur (after nerfs nobody seems to play him). Its also really early to claim that we need to make any specific changes at all. Just a few month ago I had never heard of the arty vortex, but now Gannon seems to be a very good character because of it.

1.Ivysaur is female.
2.I've seen quite a few people in my area use her.
3.The reason some people want Fox and Falco to be changed isn't necessarily that they don't want the "top tier" characters to be changed; the proof is that Jigglypuff is top tier in Melee, but nobody complains about her in Project M. The real reason some people want Fox and Falco to be changed is that they're perceived by some people as a tad overpowered (which, in such a matchup based game like this, I think means that they just have too many advantageous matchups while so many other characters are more niche, not necessarily that they are broken).

 

[shapular]

- People ***** about how good crouch cancelling is in this game, but they don't ***** about it in Melee even though it's the exact same mechanic.

Then would it be okay if I complained about it in Melee? I don't play it much but I have enough competitive experience to do so. Here we go: ughh, my scrub G&W got its butt kicked last week in tournament by a crouch cancel dsmashing Dr. Mario. How am I supposed to approach? Nerf pls. (this really happened, QQ)

- There's never really a problem with not being able to grab the ledge because you're not facing it. If you miss the ledge like that, it's because /you/ suck.

I've mostly gotten over that fact and it never happens to me anymore, but why not allow it? It's just taking away one of the good things Brawl added for the sake of Melee.

- Characters can grab behind them because of the hitbox. **** happens. Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to perform cross-overs in other fighting games with large aerial hitboxes.

Yes, I get that it's the hitbox. But I don't recall it happening in Brawl, at least not nearly as much as in PM. If that's the case, PMBR changed the hitboxes to allow it for a reason, and I have the right to ask why it was made this way. Why shouldn't crossovers be a viable option? They're one of the best tools to use against characters with good shieldgrabs. Grabs should be an option for punishing someone in front of you, but behind you too?

 

[Lizalfos]

I've mostly gotten over that fact and it never happens to me anymore, but why not allow it? It's just taking away one of the good things Brawl added for the sake of Melee.


Yes, I get that it's the hitbox. But I don't recall it happening in Brawl, at least not nearly as much as in PM. If that's the case, PMBR changed the hitboxes to allow it for a reason, and I have the right to ask why it was made this way. Why shouldn't crossovers be a viable option? They're one of the best tools to use against characters with good shieldgrabs. Grabs should be an option for punishing someone in front of you, but behind you too?

1. Ledge grabbing backwards prevents people from grabbing the ledge when they want to edguard, and it also buffs gimping in general (especially for those mario mains).
2. OoS options are important because in Melee and P:M you are in an inherent disadvantage in sheild. If you are behind someone, but still close enough to be hit by the grab hitbox then you aren't properly taking advantage of a situation that should play out in your favor.

 

[Narpas_sword]

1.Ivysaur is female.

I've seen this mentioned a lot. but where in the game is that said?

Brawl manual uses gender neutral pronouns...