Project Custom: Choosing Pikachu's custom sets for tournaments

[NairWizard]

As you may know, @ Amazing Ampharos has been trying to coordinate an easy and convenient method for legalizing custom moves in tournaments. In order for this method to work, each character must have 8 "standard" custom loadouts (not including 1111, the default set) for quick selection at tournaments. 2 slots will remain open in each Wii U for uploading custom sets outside of these 8.

Pikachu may not be the strongest in terms of custom moves, but we should still do our best to come up with 8 custom movesets for Pikachu players to use in tournament. The process of deciding should be quick and easy, but hopefully we can get some discussion going about the different uses of Pikachu's customs for matchups. We might end up discovering things that no one knew before!

Please make all suggestions in a 4-digit format (Neutral, Side, Up, Down special), such as 1111, the default set, but do not suggest the default set as it is available on every Wii U anyway.

I will start by suggesting three sets to demonstrate the format:

1311 - standard Pikachu is very strong, so I kept all the standard moves for this set, but Heavy Skull Bash is a great option to use to get quick KOs--it addresses one of Pikachu's (perceived) biggest problems (netting easy KOs).
2311 - Same as above but replaced Thunderjolt with Thunder Wave, which has less distance but can paralyze--another neat way to get some quick KOs, though maybe not as useful as Thunderjolt because you can't run up and grab quite as easily (or use it from as far away)
3311 - replaced Thunderjolt with Thunder Shock: the direction of this move is more useful in some matchups, and it might be better for teams overall because of blast at the end of the move

What suggestions do you have? Let's discuss!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Much as on the Palutena board, user SolidSense is trying to outrace me by less than an hour. Consider this like an OP for this thread describing the project:

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[NairWizard]

Much as on the Palutena board, user SolidSense is trying to outrace me by less than an hour. Consider this like an OP for this thread describing the project:

Geez, dude, don't make assumptions. I realized that my character boards didn't have custom topics, and went to make them. I didn't realize you were making some yourself.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Geez, dude, don't make assumptions. I realized that my character boards didn't have custom topics, and went to make them. I didn't realize you were making some yourself.

You should read that post with levity. I'm not upset in any way that you did this thing, and I do indeed realize that you aren't a mind-reader. Let us no longer discuss this thing and instead turn our attention to Pikachu and his thrilling custom movesets.

 

[NairWizard]

You should read that post with levity. I'm not upset in any way that you did this thing, and I do indeed realize that you aren't a mind-reader. Let us no longer discuss this thing and instead turn our attention to Pikachu and his thrilling custom movesets.

Fair enough. Resisted the temptation to post on the ZSS boards before you do, since you seem to be going in alphabetical order.

Anyway, I don't think that we'll need more than 3 custom sets, but maybe people will prove me wrong.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Why is the 3 the last one? Side B is second number, right? And yeah I think 1311 is great (3 being Heavy Skull Bash), but 2311 is also pretty viable. I've heard some good things about 1331 (Heavy SB and Quick Feet), since Quick Feet is just 1 direction it doesn't allow for as good of mixups but it has a lot of potential, I think. Meteor Quick Attack (Up 2) has potential as well as part of 1321 or 2321 but the startup being slower makes me wonder.

I seriously think Up 2 needs some testing though, I feel like all of Pika's Up Bs have a nice niche to fill. I've also heard subbing Thunder for Thunder Burst (Down 1 for Down 2) is an alright option, but have yet to hear any justification for Distant Thunder whatsoever.

So if I may suggest a few sets, I would say

1311
1321
1331
1312
2311
2312

I don't think I have any other sets to suggest. But it's definitely apparent if you want to run customs on Pikachu to always use Heavy Skull Bash. There should never be a 1 in that slot. I wouldn't mind seeing some tests on Side B 2, though.

 

[NairWizard]

Yes, I think I messed up the numbering. I'll fix that. But I agree: Heavy Skull Bash is obviously our best option in all cases. I think Quick Feet's only problem is that it's much more readable (you can't do only half the move and land in front of your opponent, you can't zip behind your opponent from non-diagonal angles above him, etc.) than our standard Quick Attack.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

For that reason I don't see it as being used too much, I see QA1 being used the most, with maybe some trying out QA2, but the startup on QA2 is a bit of a turn-off where it takes longer.

Pikachu definitely has some usable customs it's just that one option is usually the best by a sizable margin.

 

[NairWizard]

What's the advantage of Thunder Burst? I've never seen it used, and I can't see how it would be superior to his default Thunder (which is *so* good). Does it assist in gimps on any characters?

 

[Nocally]

If all of this just sounds like nonsense, then disregard this post

maybe we should discuss which sets to use against different opponents/stages. This is of course hard since the other players are able to use customs as well.

Thunder burst is a good surprise against areal attackers, and since pikachu´s kill power is very limited in the air, it could be useful. I don't know if the move is reflect-able like thunder is, but I could see it being used a lot against Rosalina and luma by simply jumping in between them

Thunder shock can be used like a kill move too, but it might see limited use since it is not that versatile since it has a set range.

Pikachu´s up specials could be used in some match-ups since they have different properties, Pikachu with meteor attacks are scary. I eagerly await some new tech to get discovered in the future by using these moves.

Out of the side-B´s, only heavy skull bash is worth mentioning, unless the others have some niche effects in some match ups.

 

[Krysco]

I don't use Pika in this game but I have been reading every one of these threads to see what customs I should try for characters I use and what customs to look out for when it comes to other characters.

A while back I found a 'tech' if you can call it that with Pika's utilt.

Here's the post I made back in October about it:

Just found a neat use for that utilt thing I mentioned before. If you have Pika be right up against a ledge with his back facing towards it and do utilt > thunder he goes off stage to do the thunder. I tried it with his other specials and he stayed on stage. I was trying to see if it could be like dtilt from brawl where you could do dtilt > sh > thunder but in this case the sh isn't even needed although it does help.

Just did utilt > sh > thunder x3 > double jump > thunder x2 and got back with both uses of QA. So utilt might be the new dtilt.

Edit: Also works with both Thunder customs but Thunder Burst has way too much lag and doesn't keep Pika in the air so you can't even pull off 1 without sding. Can be used on the edge of any platform. Was able to get 2 distant thunders with and without a sh and 3 distant thunders with a fh.

Should also mention that I tested this on Battlefield so the numbers might change depending what stage you try it on.

Just wanted to post it here since it may or may not help in deciding what customs to use, namely Thunder/Distant Thunder for edge guarding and Burst for onstage shenanigans.

 

[Apriori]

Yes, I think I messed up the numbering. I'll fix that. But I agree: Heavy Skull Bash is obviously our best option in all cases. I think Quick Feet's only problem is that it's much more readable (you can't do only half the move and land in front of your opponent, you can't zip behind your opponent from non-diagonal angles above him, etc.) than our standard Quick Attack.

If you're on the ground, you can have some control over the horizontal distance of the Quick Feet by tilting the control stick down at different angles. At the lowest angle that doesn't take you straight down, it goes about half the distance of the full forward.

 

[Makai Wars]

Meteor Quick attack is iffy, honestly. Quick Feet even moreso but I haven't actually used it that much, but I really feel stock QA is best overall.
Anyway some sets:
2312
2311
1311
1312

Honestly as long as the side special is set to 3, and the up special is set to 1, the other 2 numbers are entirely up to the player

 

[Psyant]

Quick Feet is massively underrated around here and is really god damn good imo. On par with normal QA but specializes in different areas. It's the same recovery distance, but easier to use, travels faster (effectively in half the time as it's only one zip, better for burst movement) and most importantly has significantly more hitstun than the second hit of normal Quick Attack. It can set up into a lot of stuff, including smashes and uncharged Heavy Skull Bash as a true combo when they fall towards you after being hit by it. The only downsides are that it's more linear as a recovery, can't be used quite as creatively, and is worse for moving around platforms and such especially factoring in QAC, on the few stages that works on (most notably the Smashville platform).

Meteor Quick Attack is the real loser of the Up Bs. It has like half the recovery distance of QA/Quick Feet, starts up slower and travels much slower. Really not worth it. Why would you ever wanna give up your godly recovery as Pikachu?

Personally, the sets I use and recommend are:

1311
2311
1331
2331

Heavy Skull Bash is just a massive direct improvement over the other Skull Bash variants and should always be taken. Besides that it's basically Thunder Jolt/Wave + Quick Attack as two sets, and Thunder Jolt/Wave + Quick Feet as the other two. I'd consider these all about equal and use them depending on the MU. I think 1331 is probably the strongest overall set though. Quick Feet has more on stage presence than Quick Attack, being better for chasing and escaping juggles as well as getting better followups than Quick Attack when used aggressively due to higher hitstun.

Thunder Burst I think has some minor usage as a crazy dive off the stage edgeguard tactic, as it catches people pretty well as you fall and hits stronger than any aerial, but the end lag is so long it can be hard to not SD doing that. I'd personally always just rather have the normal thunder over it's variants.

 

[NairWizard]

Quick Feet is massively underrated around here and is really god damn good imo. On par with normal QA but specializes in different areas. It's the same recovery distance, but easier to use, travels faster (effectively in half the time as it's only one zip, better for burst movement) and most importantly has significantly more hitstun than the second hit of normal Quick Attack. It can set up into a lot of stuff, including smashes and uncharged Heavy Skull Bash as a true combo when they fall towards you after being hit by it. The only downsides are that it's more linear as a recovery, can't be used quite as creatively, and is worse for moving around platforms and such especially factoring in QAC, on the few stages that works on (most notably the Smashville platform).

Meteor Quick Attack is the real loser of the Up Bs. It has like half the recovery distance of QA/Quick Feet, starts up slower and travels much slower. Really not worth it. Why would you ever wanna give up your godly recovery as Pikachu?

Personally, the sets I use and recommend are:

1311
2311
1331
2331

Heavy Skull Bash is just a massive direct improvement over the other Skull Bash variants and should always be taken. Besides that it's basically Thunder Jolt/Wave + Quick Attack as two sets, and Thunder Jolt/Wave + Quick Feet as the other two. I'd consider these all about equal and use them depending on the MU. I think 1331 is probably the strongest overall set though. Quick Feet has more on stage presence than Quick Attack, being better for chasing and escaping juggles as well as getting better followups than Quick Attack when used aggressively due to higher hitstun.

Thunder Burst I think has some minor usage as a crazy dive off the stage edgeguard tactic, as it catches people pretty well as you fall and hits stronger than any aerial, but the end lag is so long it can be hard to not SD doing that. I'd personally always just rather have the normal thunder over it's variants.

Quick Attack is mainly better because you can mix up the one-burst and the two-burst to be unpredictable. You can also use it for edgeguarding if you cancel it at the edge (with the single burst) into a n-air, b-air, or jump n-air. On stages like Battlefield and Town And City I would take Quick Attack over Quick Feet by a mile because of the variety of approach options that you get. On flat stages, Quick Feet might be better.

 

[Psyant]

Quick Attack is mainly better because you can mix up the one-burst and the two-burst to be unpredictable. You can also use it for edgeguarding if you cancel it at the edge (with the single burst) into a n-air, b-air, or jump n-air. On stages like Battlefield and Town And City I would take Quick Attack over Quick Feet by a mile because of the variety of approach options that you get. On flat stages, Quick Feet might be better.

Worth noting you can edge cancel with Quick Feet too though, and it can reach the ledge from the center of FD in one quick zip. For getting somewhere quickly, as long as it's in a straight line, it's better than QA. You can do some pretty crazy long-distance tech chasing with it as well.

I was thinking the same on flat stages vs platforms though. I'd rather have Quick Feet on FD, but on Battlefield, as you say, I'd rather have QA.

 

[NairWizard]

Worth noting you can edge cancel with Quick Feet too though, and it can reach the ledge from the center of FD in one quick zip. For getting somewhere quickly, as long as it's in a straight line, it's better than QA. You can do some pretty crazy long-distance tech chasing with it as well.

I was thinking the same on flat stages vs platforms though. I'd rather have Quick Feet on FD, but on Battlefield, as you say, I'd rather have QA.

Quick Attack is also a better recovery I think. Since Quick Feet is linear, it's easier to intercept offstage (even though it is faster). The angles really make it hard to edgeguard Pikachu as basically every character.

And, once you're on the ledge, you can Quick Attack over your opponent's head (as he waits to f-smash you or whatever) or straight through (once or twice), so I think it's also better in that situation.

Quick Feet is not strictly inferior unlike Heavy Skull Bash vs. Skull Bash, but to be honest I'd have a hard time giving up all the advantages of QA for the better hitstun of QF.

 

[Psyant]

I'd agree, but as it is right now if you're playing customs you can recover completely for free with Heavy Skull Bash's momentum glitch anyway, so you don't really have to worry about Quick Feet being more edgeguardable, lol.

And yeah they're comparable but better in different areas. It's not a clear cut case, thus why I have sets that use both.

 

[Funkermonster]

No Love for Thunder Shock?

 

[QuickLava]

Am I the only one who actually likes Distant Thunder? In my experience, it's actually really strong near the cloud. Like really strong. Like, KO's at 80% strong. And since the people I play with aren't particularly fond of Sm4sh, they always fall for grab-release Up-Smash, which leads into DT pretty well.

 

[Phoenix Lord']

I like Distant Thunder. I personally use 2313.

 

[Kerenthar]

Only for informative purpose: why Heavy Bash is so overrated here? Is good, but too slow in my opinion, and Shocking Bash help me more to counter edgeguarders.

EDIT: my votes for 2211 or 2213 (both thunders are nice picks)

 

[Rakurai]

Heavy Skull Bash is preferred because it actually has offensive value. When uncharged and smashed, it kills at about the same percents as a sweetspotted forward smash, but comes out much faster and can be used instead of a grab as a punish in many situations. If you charge it even slightly, the KO power ramps up hugely from there.

Also, Pikachu's recovery is so good already that he doesn't really need the extra distance the other two customs provide.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

Set 1321 in AA's custom project should be replaced. Has anyone even found a use for meteor QA yet?
I'm thinking that the meteor effect just isn't worth the distance and speed loss, and the stun effect is completely outclassed by thunder wave. Another quick feet set could be a replacement, that move has plenty of potential; it's crazy fast and has near guaranteed setups!

Is the reason that neutral b 1 is considered better than neutral b 2 just because of the range loss?

 

[Psyant]

Yeah, less range and it's also not as good for building up damage. IMO Jolt and Wave are both about on par with each other and it mostly comes down to your opponent's character. For example, if you're facing a character like Villager with an ungodly recovery that you will probably struggle to gimp, being able to land Fsmash/Usmash becomes far more important, and Thunder Wave is a great help in achieving that.

On the other hand, against easily gimpable and slow characters, you might favor jolt's long range damage racking and pressure, as you don't need to rely on thunder wave's setups as much to get kills.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

Yeah, less range and it's also not as good for building up damage. IMO Jolt and Wave are both about on par with each other and it mostly comes down to your opponent's character. For example, if you're facing a character like Villager with an ungodly recovery that you will probably struggle to gimp, being able to land Fsmash/Usmash becomes far more important, and Thunder Wave is a great help in achieving that.

On the other hand, against easily gimpable and slow characters, you might favor jolt's long range damage racking and pressure, as you don't need to rely on thunder wave's setups as much to get kills.

I agree that they are on par. I prefer thunder jolt in most cases, but I have started to play around with thunder wave. Utilizing it in the same way as ness's pk fire actually works really well for twave. By that i mean using it mid range for a quick grab or aerial, and using it up close like JC pk fire. It's a huge risk, but the reward is incredibly high. Range isn't an issue this way, and I never use tjolt for damage anyway.

 

[Soul.]

Distant Thunder is a lot more underrated than Quick Feet. Despite it having more lag than regular Thunder, it has the ability to hit opponents that prefer the air and in earlier percents compared to regular Thunder. For example, it KOs Diddy at approximately 125% compared to the 140% regular Thunder does. Now I'm not saying Distant Thunder is the way to go; I'm saying it is a useful move vs. floaty characters like Jigglypuff, Kirby, etc. and allows us to KO earlier, provided the opponent doesn't DI the up throw (which I think you can stop them from DIing by pummeling).


Most of the time Pikachu will be using regular Thunder because that's the best Down B. In other words, most characters will be KO'd by regular Thunder, but Distant Thunder is good vs. floaty characters and heavyweights that cannot land (Bowser, who is KO'd at 127% with DT).

The move is worth using, worth using in fact for its ability to KO at earlier percents compared to regular Thunder. Only downsides are the slightly increased lag and the fact that you can't meteor smash characters in the air.


As for sets involving the move, I can't say for sure. Maybe 1313 and 2313. If it's not listed there's always the 3DS.

I may be overselling this move, but yeah. Extremely underrated.


TL;DR: We KO earlier in exchange for more lag. Seems like reward. Regular Thunder is better. Down B 3 has its uses.

 

[Ussi]

I like distant thunder simply cause killing with thunder off the top was a thing in brawl. I can see it coming back, it just isn't as free of an option anymore. Unexpected (meaning badly DI'd) usmash/utilt/uthrow > thunder is my favorite thing.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

Distant Thunder is a lot more underrated than Quick Feet. Despite it having more lag than regular Thunder, it has the ability to hit opponents that prefer the air and in earlier percents compared to regular Thunder. For example, it KOs Diddy at approximately 125% compared to the 140% regular Thunder does. Now I'm not saying Distant Thunder is the way to go; I'm saying it is a useful move vs. floaty characters like Jigglypuff, Kirby, etc. and allows us to KO earlier, provided the opponent doesn't DI the up throw (which I think you can stop them from DIing by pummeling).


Most of the time Pikachu will be using regular Thunder because that's the best Down B. In other words, most characters will be KO'd by regular Thunder, but Distant Thunder is good vs. floaty characters and heavyweights that cannot land (Bowser, who is KO'd at 127% with DT).

The move is worth using, worth using in fact for its ability to KO at earlier percents compared to regular Thunder. Only downsides are the slightly increased lag and the fact that you can't meteor smash characters in the air.


As for sets involving the move, I can't say for sure. Maybe 1313 and 2313. If it's not listed there's always the 3DS.

I may be overselling this move, but yeah. Extremely underrated.


TL;DR: We KO earlier in exchange for more lag. Seems like reward. Regular Thunder is better. Down B 3 has its uses.

It might be underrated, I honestly haven't spent very much time with it. But my impression of it as of now is that is pikachu's second worst custom. The issue with it for me isn't just the lag, it's the time it takes for it to actually get onscreen to hit the opponent. It takes so long there's simply no way it will hit the opponent at a reasonable percent.

Here's what you lose vs the regular thunder:
-The spike. You lose so much just because of this alone. You lose the ability to gimp the opponent, but even worse you lose the threat. Spike>into Pika is 8 (bolt)+15 (base) damage plus a chance to kill horizontally, that's much more than Distant thunder ever has hope of hitting plus it has set-ups.

-Speed. The speed of thunder1 is what makes it so potent. It allows for set ups and all but forces an airdodge. Thunder3 can't do that. It takes too long for any set-up to be reliable. In addition, It leaves you open to attacks on whiff. You lose a somewhat reliable combo-breaker, and distant thunder's base is unusable.

-Stalling. It takes too long for the bolt to reach pika. Offstage you won't be able to ever get more than one off, at a huge risk to pika because the invincibility doesn't start until the bolt touches pika. Opponents basically get a free card back onto the stage if you ever decide to use it, and Thunder1 raises your height after a DJ>Thunder; Thunder 3 lowers it. That's a pretty big deal considering you'll be even more open to attacks trying to recover. If you use thunder3 you simply have to accept not using it offstage, so pika's edgeguarding suffers.

-You can't hit through platforms afaik. At least, not reasonably. That means when being edgeguarded you can't strike the opponent from underneath the stage.

Overall, you lose nothing when using thundr1 over distant thunder. Percents where you can get distant thunder to kill, they are already in kill range for pika's other moves, including spike>thunder1 which is far more reliable imo. Thunder1 can kill off of the top and it's actually a huge threat since this happens if your opponent airdodges poorly. Thunder Burst has more use as replacement a kill move, plus it does massive shield damage.This is just my thoughts on why I wouldn't use it, but if it has some set-ups that work it could have a use. When I first saw distant thunder i was pretty excited about it, but the "distant" part is a bit of a letdown for me...

 

[Soul.]

It might be underrated, I honestly haven't spent very much time with it. But my impression of it as of now is that is pikachu's second worst custom. The issue with it for me isn't just the lag, it's the time it takes for it to actually get onscreen to hit the opponent. It takes so long there's simply no way it will hit the opponent at a reasonable percent.

Here's what you lose vs the regular thunder:
-The spike. You lose so much just because of this alone. You lose the ability to gimp the opponent, but even worse you lose the threat. Spike>into Pika is 8 (bolt)+15 (base) damage plus a chance to kill horizontally, that's much more than Distant thunder ever has hope of hitting plus it has set-ups.

-Speed. The speed of thunder1 is what makes it so potent. It allows for set ups and all but forces an airdodge. Thunder3 can't do that. It takes too long for any set-up to be reliable. In addition, It leaves you open to attacks on whiff. You lose a somewhat reliable combo-breaker, and distant thunder's base is unusable.

-Stalling. It takes too long for the bolt to reach pika. Offstage you won't be able to ever get more than one off, at a huge risk to pika because the invincibility doesn't start until the bolt touches pika. Opponents basically get a free card back onto the stage if you ever decide to use it, and Thunder1 raises your height after a DJ>Thunder; Thunder 3 lowers it. That's a pretty big deal considering you'll be even more open to attacks trying to recover. If you use thunder3 you simply have to accept not using it offstage, so pika's edgeguarding suffers.

-You can't hit through platforms afaik. At least, not reasonably. That means when being edgeguarded you can't strike the opponent from underneath the stage.

Overall, you lose nothing when using thundr1 over distant thunder. Percents where you can get distant thunder to kill, they are already in kill range for pika's other moves, including spike>thunder1 which is far more reliable imo. Thunder1 can kill off of the top and it's actually a huge threat since this happens if your opponent airdodges poorly. Thunder Burst has more use as replacement a kill move, plus it does massive shield damage. This is just my thoughts on why I wouldn't use it, but if it has some set-ups that work it could have a use. When I first saw distant thunder i was pretty excited about it, but the "distant" part is a bit of a letdown for me...

Meh. You still lose the three main things that make regular Thunder better with Thunder Burst (speed, meteor smash, stalling). Stalling is even worse with TB. If you fast fall it (as a mistake of course) Pika goes straight down, making it worse for using it to recover.

It has a long startup as well which makes me doubt if it's a useful way to KO. You could bring up shields and say "If opponent uses shield they get hit to the point that their shield will break". I don't know if this is true, but that's what I think about Thunder Burst. The Thunder customs are just... eh.

 

[Krysco]

Just found a neat use for that utilt thing I mentioned before. If you have Pika be right up against a ledge with his back facing towards it and do utilt > thunder he goes off stage to do the thunder. I tried it with his other specials and he stayed on stage. I was trying to see if it could be like dtilt from brawl where you could do dtilt > sh > thunder but in this case the sh isn't even needed although it does help.

Just did utilt > sh > thunder x3 > double jump > thunder x2 and got back with both uses of QA. So utilt might be the new dtilt.

Edit: Also works with both Thunder customs but Thunder Burst has way too much lag and doesn't keep Pika in the air so you can't even pull off 1 without sding. Can be used on the edge of any platform. Was able to get 2 distant thunders with and without a sh and 3 distant thunders with a fh.

Should also mention that I tested this on Battlefield so the numbers might change depending what stage you try it on.

So here's a post I made back in October since people are talking about Distant Thunder compared to Thunder along with Thunder Burst.

utilt with your back at the ledge > short hop > Thunder x3 > double jump > Thunder x 2 > Quick Attack back to the ledge is a possible edgeguard with default Thunder. With Distant you can get 3 at most with this method and Burst doesn't allow you to get even one. Could possibly full hop, double jump off stage with it and get back with Quick Attack though. Distant would create 3 long walls at most while default could create 5 slightly shorter ones. I personally prefer default Thunder but then I'm just now getting into Pikachu and not so much his customs.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

Meh. You still lose the three main things that make regular Thunder better with Thunder Burst (speed, meteor smash, stalling). Stalling is even worse with TB. If you fast fall it (as a mistake of course) Pika goes straight down, making it worse for using it to recover.

It has a long startup as well which makes me doubt if it's a useful way to KO. You could bring up shields and say "If opponent uses shield they get hit to the point that their shield will break". I don't know if this is true, but that's what I think about Thunder Burst. The Thunder customs are just... eh.

Sorry, my point was that you don't really gain anything with thunder 3. Thunder Burst probably should be used differently than thunder, if at all. I've played with it a little, the start-up is long but usable. It should definitely always be used out of a SH hop, and never be ever paired with any neutral b except thunderjolt. The SH lets it cover more space and jump over moves. It can also punish spot-dodges and it's the closest pika will ever get to breaking a shield. Thunder Burst has it's uses, but you're right that the down-b customs are just...eh.

So here's a post I made back in October since people are talking about Distant Thunder compared to Thunder along with Thunder Burst.

utilt with your back at the ledge > short hop > Thunder x3 > double jump > Thunder x 2 > Quick Attack back to the ledge is a possible edgeguard with default Thunder. With Distant you can get 3 at most with this method and Burst doesn't allow you to get even one. Could possibly full hop, double jump off stage with it and get back with Quick Attack though. Distant would create 3 long walls at most while default could create 5 slightly shorter ones. I personally prefer default Thunder but then I'm just now getting into Pikachu and not so much his customs.

The bolt's are the same size iirc. Can you recover from from the 3 distant thunder?

Also, three more ways to do this: 1)dtilt works too 2)foxtrot at the ledge w/o falling off and thunder during foxtrot 3) crawl at ledge w/o falling then thunder.

 

[Krysco]

Well, longer wall in the sense that it starts higher so the area it takes up is longer overall and yes you can recover from the 3 distant thunders though I believe you need to use both uses of Quick Attack. I only tested it on Battlefield on the 3DS version so on a stage like Lylat the results could be different and dangerous. I didn't know about the 3 other methods though I knew dtilt worked in Brawl.

Edit: So in my post that I quoted from October I said that Thunder Burst has too much lag to be used off stage. Just tried it again and I was able to full hop Thunder Burst off stage and get back with a double jump and one use of Quick Attack. Able to short hop Thunder Burst and barely get back with a double jump and both uses of Quick Attack. Not sure if the recent patch changed this or if past me just failed (tested this on 3DS Battlefield) Not that it matters too much. One of the main reasons to use Thunder off stage is the bolt and Burst gets rid of that.

 

[SpandexBullets]

I like Distant Thunder. I personally use 2313.

A lot of people started saying that distant thunder was like Pikachu's old thunder, but it actually comes out after a full second, whereas the original move had about 0.75 seconds before hitting Pikachu.
The new one is even faster, at about 0.5-0.6 seconds. Would players still use it? It might just be useful for traps and REALLY high ceilings with heavy opponents.

I don't believe that quick attack has been nerfed in range; compared it to melee and brawl, it's pretty much identical, but with end lag that can't be cancelled.

I think electric skull bash should be considered - it's got pretty good followups like grabs and dacus(dash jump cancel upsmash works) given the slow horizontal launch distance.

 

[TheASDF]

So, our current sets are:

1311
2311
2312
1312
1321
1331

We're looking to add 4 more to the list. I think 1313 and 2313 are pretty obvious picks, since Distant Thunder is a move that, while not as good as default Thunder, still isn't bad.

I think we all seem to agree that Meteor Quick Attack isn't really that good, and could possibly be removed, but that would still leave us with 3 sets to fill out. 2331 could probably be added, and then for the last 2 you add Shocking Skull Bash and/or Thunder Shock sets, I guess? Or maybe sets with both Quick Feet and Thunder Burst. I dunno, the first two sets on the list seem to be pretty objectively the best anyway, so it seems kinda arbitrary.

Thoughts?

 

[Phoenix Lord']

Definitely 2313. I feel like Distant Thunder could really use some more testing.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

I'd like to retract my statement on meteor quick attack being bad. The start-up reduction put it right over the line from being unusable to being usable. 1321 or 2321 is fine for it, the fifteen frame start-up was really the major flaw before.

 

[NairWizard]

1311 and 2311 will forever be Pikachu's best sets. Quick Attack is the best attack in the game and shouldn't be messed with at all. Quick Feet is OK at best. Thunder (or a move like it) is absolutely necessary for Pikachu as a character to work, because it makes his edgeguarding lethal against the likes of Diddy, who otherwise could just recover high to avoid being hit offstage when recovering. You need a move that covers a lot of vertical distance quickly. Distant Thunder is slow, but workable, and Thunder Burst is... useless; it has some niche KOing utility but you lose so much offstage strength, and the ability to stall cleanly without risk of getting hit.

We could definitely add 2331 and some experimentation with Distant Thunder.

Thunder Wave and Thunder Jolt are equally viable (highly matchup dependent) and you need to have the option of either with every single set that you run. So 5 of our sets should have twave and 5 should have tjolt.

Let's just please remove Meteor Quick Attack. It is the worst of all worlds, and under no circumstances should you ever run it. Regular Quick Attack is too good. Quick Feet is a passable substitute.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

1311 and 2311 are pikachu's best sets, i agree. But quick feet is far better than just okay. Meteor Quick attack probably should go but most of pika other customs don't offer anything over Thunder Jolt/Wave , Thunder, or Quick Feet. I'm shocked so many people think Thunder Burst is too slow, but Distant Thunder is worth experimentation. I feel like i'm missing something really crucial when it comes to that move. :S

 

[NairWizard]

1311 and 2311 are pikachu's best set i agree. But quick feet is far better than just okay. Meteor Quick attack probably should go but most of pika other customs don't offer anything over Thunder Jolt/Wave , Thunder, or Quick Feet. I'm shocked so many people think Thunder Burst is too slow, but Distant Thunder is worth experimentation. I feel like i'm missing something really crucial when it comes to that move. :S

Taking Quick Feet over Quick Attack makes Pikachu's recovery, followups (except for combos into Heavy Skull Bash/up-smash/dash attack), mixups, and ability to get out of juggles all worse. Try taking Quick Feet against a Diddy Kong and note how many times you get up-aired. You could have just avoided all of that with Quick Attack.