Project Custom: Choosing Pikachu's custom sets for tournaments

[CarbuncleHero]

Taking Quick Feet over Quick Attack makes Pikachu's recovery, followups (except for combos into Heavy Skull Bash/up-smash/dash attack), mixups, and ability to get out of juggles all worse. Try taking Quick Feet against a Diddy Kong and note how many times you get up-aired. You could have just avoided all of that with Quick Attack.

I don't think this is true. Especially the followup part. Quick Feet probably allows for MORE followups than Quick Attack, since the hitstun is so high and it drags the opponent in your direction. QA and Quick Feet have the exact same start-up time, so I don't see how pika gets juggled more by choosing quick feet.
The recovery is the only issue and it isn't a huge one. Simply, Quick Feet is too fast to take advantage of. You can't be stopped on your way by to the ledge. The problem is getting back onstage since you can't really maneuver around the opponent like with Quick Attack, and that's no real issue at all.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Definitely 2313. I feel like Distant Thunder could really use some more testing.

It's a full second of lag, so it can't kill off the top in a combo - I've only found it worth using for cutting off options at the edge and as a stronger means to protect it.

 

[TheASDF]

So then, what would people think of the following sets?

1311
2311
2312
1312
1313
1331
2313
2331
1333
1332

I think the first 8 should definitely be in - you can argue about the order if you want, but the order of the top 6 is largely arbitrary. I believe 7 and 8 are "optional" for TOs if they don't want to run 2222/3333 (could be wrong though), so if you think those are more important than any in the top 6, say so. 9 and 10 could be any one of a few, if people think something else should be run there (perhaps something more experimental), then say so.

 

[Nice]

Worth noting is the fact that thunder burst CAN'T be reflected or absorbed, making it extremely useful in those annoying matchups where our thunder can be used against us, robbing us of that crucial KO potential. (Ness, Rosalina, fox/falco, were a few that I tested) You can't throw it out mindlessly, since there's a lot of ending lag, but it seems you can combo into it from utilt or dthrow at mid-high percents

For this reason I would think both 1312 and 2312 would be viable builds, at least against reflecting/absorbing characters.

Other than that I would probably always be using 1311 or 2311

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It seems like the Pikachus are doing some great work optimizing the sets based on our current understanding and the new situation with how many sets we have to fill out. It's nice to see that this character will probably be an easy one to give everything he needs when the time comes.

 

[Soul.]

I can see Thunder Burst being useful for characters with reflectors but that's all there is to me. Could be useful to bait someone into reflector and then Thunder Burst. The move is so punishable though I can't see myself using it. Then again, risk vs. reward.
Thunder is best Thunder though.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

I experimented more and actually changed my mind on thunder burst. The hitboxes are so bad for that move that it isn't ever worth using. Anything potential use that move has is ruined by something.
Just a little about the move itself:
It has three hitboxes, the first of which comes out on frame 12, and does 23 damage if all three moves hit. Has a sweet spot close to pikachu that can kill around ~90 center stage and a sourspot that is much less threatening. The last hit does massive shield damage, and this move has nearly the same range as downtilt.
The bad part about all of this is the hitboxes are so spread apart that this move loses to every defensive option. The shield damage on the last hit doesn't matter because the shieldstun is so low on the first two hits the opponent can just roll out of the attack, and punish with literally anything ever. It would be great for punishing ledge get-ups, but it is far too easy to just roll through the attack. The hits have a horrible habit of not connecting into themselves, so the range on this move is useless as well.
Default Thunder truly is the best Thunder.

 

[Soul.]

Honestly the only good customs we have are Thunder Wave and Heavy Skull Bash. The rest is either not good, needs further testing, or is outclassed.

Thunder Shock is bad. Loses the versatility Thunder Jolt has, which lets us camp and get a free grab if the opponent shields it. It also loses the paralysis effect Thunder Wave gives, all for a horizontal blast that KOs early, but is it worth giving up the versatility of Thunder Jolt and paralysis shenanigans of Thunder Wave for TShock?

Quick Attack's customs aren't worth using, especially Meteor QA. You move slower, which lets opponents gimp you (ahem, Cape, F.L.U.D.D., Hydro Pump) and is overall poor reward. You don't gain anything by using this move. I could see it being used for things like Thunder Wave chains > Meteor QA on the ground > Thunder meteor but eh, it's just not worth it.

Quick Feet is niche at best. No second jump, could potentially be edgeguarded, eh. Even though it has the same hitstun and startup as Quick Attack, it hits opponents at a good angle to hit with something else. So yeah, niche.

I won't bother talking about Thunder's customs. Everyone knows regular Thunder is better.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think this is true. Especially the followup part. Quick Feet probably allows for MORE followups than Quick Attack, since the hitstun is so high and it drags the opponent in your direction.

Quick Attack has more followups than Quick Feet because you can do one burst or two, leaving your opponent guessing about where you're going to attack from. Also, because you can do one or two, there are many more positions from which you can start the QA to end up near your opponent--for example, if your opponent is landing, you can throw out a Tjolt. He will airdodge or aerial to catch the Tjolt, and you can QA behind him and b-air him right before he lands. It's harder to position yourself for these followups when you have Quick Feet instead. Quick Feet has more guaranteed combos and is probably better for KO confirms into Heavy Skull Bash, but the flexibility of Quick Attack gets you more hits overall, so it's better in that regard.

QA and Quick Feet have the exact same start-up time, so I don't see how pika gets juggled more by choosing quick feet.

Because when you use Quick Feet the direction in which you land is linear, and also because of the distance there are places that you just can't land at all. Like on Battlefield, with QA you can land on more than a dozen places when falling toward any given place, including the ledge. But you have maybe 2 options for landing with Quick Feet. That's a big difference.

Recovery is the smallest difference between the two. Quick Attack is just all-around better.

Pikachu without Quick Attack is like Sonic without Spindash honestly. It's a heavy loss for us!

 

[mercy]

Thunder wave --> heavy skull bash is legit.

 

[captain clutch]

Why isn't it Thunder Shock (n3) getting any love? The main set I've been using is 3321.

While all of his neutral b's are great, I think giving pikachu a killing projectile is definitely worth considering. Especially for certain match ups. Against zoning characters like DH, Shock is great to counter the spacing. Hitting with the sweet spot does 10% and sends them flying off stage. If you hit with the sweet spot off stage, you most likely get a kill. As Pikachu is already a tremendous off stage fighter, neutral 3 gives even another layer of edgeguarding.
Now for more rush down characters, I would probably prefer Thunder Wave (n2). And I've actually used Jolt the least since I started using customs, though it's still a good move, I don't understand why it's such a heavy favorite.

I'm glad everyone seems to agree that Heavy Skull Bash (s3) is the way to go. And I prefer default thunder as well.

I'm not particular crazy about meteor QA (U2) but I see it's potential. A character like Pika who travels off stage often, does benefit from having a meteor move (and boy is it satisfying). And you still have side b to help recover. But I completely understand the turn-offs.

So I suggest 3311, 3321, and think 2321 should be considered.

 

[NairWizard]

I agree that one Thunder Shock custom could be considered simply because it is so strong, and Pikachu struggles in getting KOs.


It's more worthwhile than QA and Thunder variants for the most part, really.

 

[Cocoa Brova]

I feel like thundershock is a really useful move for pikachu, if only in that it gives pika an extra kill move and edge guarding tool. I've been able to do forward throw to thundershock, though I doubt that's guaranteed at all. Can someone explain the benefits of the different skull bash's, or should I even bother considering it, since I only use it to mix up recovery. My most used set is just 3111.

 

[NairWizard]

I feel like thundershock is a really useful move for pikachu, if only in that it gives pika an extra kill move and edge guarding tool. I've been able to do forward throw to thundershock, though I doubt that's guaranteed at all. Can someone explain the benefits of the different skull bash's, or should I even bother considering it, since I only use it to mix up recovery. My most used set is just 3111.

Don't you mean 3311? Why would you use Skull Bash over Heavy Skull Bash?

 

[Soul.]

There is no point in using Skull Bash when HSB exists.
Recovery distance doesn't matter. Quick Attack exists.
Thunder Shock is still meh material to me.

 

[Cocoa Brova]

I'd never used heavy skull bash (i might not even have it unlocked), but if that's the case, i'll just use that, thanks!

 

[NairWizard]

I'd never used heavy skull bash (i might not even have it unlocked), but if that's the case, i'll just use that, thanks!

It's like an f-smash with twice the range. Great move.

 

[captain clutch]

My initial reaction, like most, was that Thunder Jolt was by far the best, but I've grown to really like Shock, and f throw to Thunder Shock does work at certain percents.

 

[TheASDF]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind a Thunder Shock set on there. 3311. I don't think it's nearly as good as the other two, but it's not a bad move. From the list I posted earlier, I'd probably switch out 1333 or 1332. Really, since Quick Feet is niche to begin with, we could probably switch both of those out for 3311 and 1321 and call it a day.

 

[JustDan]

I personally go with a 2311. A lot of cool things you can do with thunder wave and Heavy Skull Bash (especially the awesome momentum glitch).

 

[captain clutch]

I personally go with a 2311. A lot of cool things you can do with thunder wave and Heavy Skull Bash (especially the awesome momentum glitch).

What exactly is the momentum glitch? I think I experienced it for the first time today.

 

[Psyant]

Use Heavy Skull Bash (uncharged) right as you come out of hitstun. It seems to take the knockback you just took and adds it to HSB's normal momentum, resulting in you shooting super far (further the harder you just got hit).

Doesn't matter what kind of knockback you took. If you got knocked off the stage sideways, HSB will rocket you back above the stage. If you get sent flying directly up (like from a throw) you can even get a boost off that and HSB left/right to escape followups.

It seems to be similar to Wario's old momentum glitch but only for HSB, and it never got patched out.

 

[captain clutch]

Use Heavy Skull Bash (uncharged) right as you come out of hitstun. It seems to take the knockback you just took and adds it to HSB's normal momentum, resulting in you shooting super far (further the harder you just got hit).

Doesn't matter what kind of knockback you took. If you got knocked off the stage sideways, HSB will rocket you back above the stage. If you get sent flying directly up (like from a throw) you can even get a boost off that and HSB left/right to escape followups.

It seems to be similar to Wario's old momentum glitch but only for HSB, and it never got patched out.

Yeah I definitely had that happen to me. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering why I flew across the map

 

[JustDan]

Yeah I definitely had that happen to me. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering why I flew across the map

Be Careful when using it. I tried to use it after getting hit directly up and it rocketed me straight into the blast zone XD.

 

[mercy]

Use Heavy Skull Bash (uncharged) right as you come out of hitstun. It seems to take the knockback you just took and adds it to HSB's normal momentum, resulting in you shooting super far (further the harder you just got hit).

Doesn't matter what kind of knockback you took. If you got knocked off the stage sideways, HSB will rocket you back above the stage. If you get sent flying directly up (like from a throw) you can even get a boost off that and HSB left/right to escape followups.

It seems to be similar to Wario's old momentum glitch but only for HSB, and it never got patched out.

Cool. Let's keep this a secret from Sakurai though.

On another note, what are the advantages of thunderjolt over thunder wave. Other than the farther travel distance and increased damage obviously. I feel as though thunder wave gives us a much needed kill setup.

 

[NairWizard]

Cool. Let's keep this a secret from Sakurai though.

On another note, what are the advantages of thunderjolt over thunder wave. Other than the farther travel distance and increased damage obviously. I feel as though thunder wave gives us a much needed kill setup.

Thunder Jolt is better for edgeguarding.

The greater travel distance allows for more mixups, like using platforms to carry the jolt.

 

[mercy]

Thunder Jolt is better for edgeguarding.

The greater travel distance allows for more mixups, like using platforms to carry the jolt.

When it comes to edgeguarding, we have much better tools. For mixups, we have quick attack.

I'm thinking big picture. At, let's say, 100 %, if a jolt connects, that's 6% and then what? Whereas for thunder wave, if it hits, then you get a upsmash and possibly a stock.

 

[captain clutch]

I'd say thunder shock is better in the air, adding to its edge guarding effectiveness and zoning potential. It's an off-stage kill move especially at 100%.

 

[JustDan]

All three are viable and each of them have advantages. I prefer thunder wave as it can set up for kills, but I'm not opposed to using any of the others.

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1311 2311 2312 1312 1313 1331 2313 2331 3311 1321

Seems like you guys are already raring to go, and your sets are already decided on.

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

Pikachu:
TheASDF's proposed sets: http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...s-for-tournaments.380338/page-2#post-18628163 and http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...s-for-tournaments.380338/page-2#post-18653672
1311 2311 2312 1312 1313 1331 2313 2331 3311 1321

 

[Soul.]

Yeah, I think the sets are fine the way they are. There's nothing much to discuss imo so... main sets (the ones with major focus) would be 1311 and 2311, with the others being not that common. Although I think I may be underestimating them, I dunno.

 

[TIL]

Why is the 3 the last one? Side B is second number, right? And yeah I think 1311 is great (3 being Heavy Skull Bash), but 2311 is also pretty viable. I've heard some good things about 1331 (Heavy SB and Quick Feet), since Quick Feet is just 1 direction it doesn't allow for as good of mixups but it has a lot of potential, I think. Meteor Quick Attack (Up 2) has potential as well as part of 1321 or 2321 but the startup being slower makes me wonder.

I seriously think Up 2 needs some testing though, I feel like all of Pika's Up Bs have a nice niche to fill. I've also heard subbing Thunder for Thunder Burst (Down 1 for Down 2) is an alright option, but have yet to hear any justification for Distant Thunder whatsoever.

So if I may suggest a few sets, I would say

1311
1321
1331
1312
2311
2312

I don't think I have any other sets to suggest. But it's definitely apparent if you want to run customs on Pikachu to always use Heavy Skull Bash. There should never be a 1 in that slot. I wouldn't mind seeing some tests on Side B 2, though.

I am currently trying to get good w/ distant thunder. As your throws can be DI'ed, both are hard to land out of a grab. But I like the idea of an instakill on the rare occurence you're in position for DT, a bit more than I like the idea of learning the offstage tricks with default thunder. One way I've been practicing is ThunderWave > Upsmash > DistantThunder, at higher percents. A bit tough to land, but even if they catch on, it's instant enough where they'll have trouble avoiding it if you don't always time it the exact same way.

 

[wm1026]

So I posted this on the social thread, but then I saw this and figured it should go here too. I think you can jab lock with the sour spot of thunder shock, and if spaced correctly it will push your opponent back enough to where if you use thundershock again it will sweet spot on their get up every time. If someone could be awesome and confirm this for me, it would be great

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

It's actually a little sad at how good HSB is, as it means Psycho Crusher has no real merits other than "it looks BA."

 

[Soul.]

Alright I'm gonna post here to make sure everyone is okay with the already posted sets now that the goal is almost there.

1311
2311
2312
1312
1313
1331
2313
2331
3311
1321

Are you all okay with this?

 

[Teran]

So what's the main draw to thunder over distant? I mean thunder has traditionally been used to kill off the top, I sort of assumed it would make sense to switch to distant even if it does have more overall lag, since you won't use it in a position where you can be punished anyway.

 

[Pikabunz]

Thunder comes out much faster and lower so it's easier to hit with and it's a lot safer to use off stage. Distant thunder is just way too slow to hit anyone with. Normal thunder can also be used as a combo breaker since it comes out on frame 2 and it can also spike which is pretty fun to hit with off stage.

 

[TheASDF]

Yeah, the fact is that it just comes out too slowly to be able to really hit much. Default Thunder, on the other hand, is good for quickly catching people in the air, for upthrow->Thunder, for edgeguarding purposes, for recovery... It's such a fantastic tool for so many situations that it's not really worth giving up. The meteor in the cloud makes a world of difference.

On another note, I guess we should add 2321 in a later update, huh?

 

[busken]

I think at Low percents heavy skull bash can combo into back throw.

 

[Kaladin]

I think at Low percents heavy skull bash can combo into back throw.

You mean bthrow into HSB? Cuz otherwise its just into grab.