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Project A.R.W.I.N.G.

Conviction

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
13,390
Location
Kennesaw, Georgia
3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
So let me start off with I'm pissed that I found out the Wolf Boards already started this! It's not any of you guys fault because I've been lazy and haven't really worked on it since I started it 2 months ago haha.

This thread is about how you should be punishing characters attacks. I have a small amount of characters already done and tested offline and an incomplete ones, and please do not theorycraft in this thread because you just can't go off of frame data because you have to keep in mind proper spacing and shield pushback other variables in punishing. As this thread becomes complete and more organized we can discuss match-ups at a higher level and see if there are things we have been missing because we have been doing it wrong. New:Also as a new addition I've added on frametraps and mix-ups because those are just as important as punishing.

Uzimaki I'm counting on you to also get frame data to help out on this. Everyone is welcome to help out because a community that's what we are supposed to be doing.

Table of Contents
I. Punishments
II. Mix-ups
III. Frametraps
_________________________________________________________________________

I. Punishment
_________________________________________________________________________

Falco Punishment TKD's post
__________________________________________________________________________

  • vs jab (blocked)
    Case A - predict a single jab: usmash from block immediately after blocking jab 1.
    Case B - predict the 2nd jab: As soon as the 2nd jab touches your shield, usmash from block ASAP. Neither Falco's jab cancel nor his rapid jabs have time to come out.
    Note: I wouldn't go for these reads while in chaingrab % (< 28%).
  • vs usmash/fsmash/dsmash (whiffed/blocked): (unblock,) dash usmash. Lots of cool-down.
    Note: Seems difficult vs sour-spot fsmash. Either sourspot's hitbox comes out later, or it's just more difficult to notice. I think I've had trouble with it, may just be me, or maybe there's never been a problem and my memory fails me.
  • vs landing dair/bair: usmash from block. Powerblock preferable (and makes it more likely for the spacing to work out. If the spacing's right, powerblock confirms your usmash because Fox won't be pushed back.
  • vs landing whiffed dair/bair: dash usmash to hit during Falco's landing cool-down.
  • vs dash attack: usmash from block, or unblock+turn around+usmash. Depends on whether he'll go through Fox or not, and timing. If you wrongly usmash from block while Falco goes through you, usmash will sour hit.
    Note: it's not a bad idea to watch out for DACUS.
  • vs phantasm: face away from Falco, predict the timing, usmash.

    Notes: deadly when Falco, at KO %, only has the option to phantasm onto either the stage or the ledge, and you're near the ledge. This is because, given proper execution, there's a 50/50 chance of him losing a stock: either by an usmash or a ledgehog. In case someone's wondering about phantasm cancel Lv.1, that dies to ledgehog too.
    If Fox isn't near the ledge, Falco can either go for the ledge or Lv.1or2 cancel so he reaches the stage but not Fox.
    If Falco's not at KO %, there are easier moves to land, like utilt while facing Falco (because it comes out behind Fox), and dash attack (into Falco if far away, away from Falco if closer).
    This hitting away from Falco thing is because the first 3rd of phantasm's trajectory is invincible.
    If you ever pin Falco out of his phantasm into the ground with a dair, jab him once to activate his landing pentalty, then hit him with a smash of your choice.
  • PREDICTION. vs SHDL from too close: dash usmash. This is because he's stuck in the air during this. You can predict as soon as he hops, but it's always a possibility for him to air-dodge instead of SHDLing.
__________________________________________________________________________

Snake Punishment
__________________________________________________________________________
  • vs utilt: Block, unblock, dash usmash.
  • vs utilt (whiff): You can bait this move by standing/moving around just outside of its range. Dash usmash.
  • vs ftilt (hit 2): block, unblock, dash usmash.
  • vs ftilt (hit 1): powerblock, usmash from block.
    Note: I've tried baiting this whiff, which is possible I guess, but then I just get hit by the 2nd hit...which you can block, unblock, usmash against. Interesting...
  • vs dtilt (whiff): dash usmash.
    Note: if you block this and are close enough you can usmash from block, however uncommon this scenario may end up being.
  • vs dash attack: Predict it and turn your back vs Snake and block. Usmash from block.
_________________________________________________________________________

Kirby Punishment
__________________________________________________________________________

- Kirby's Dair on shield is a Free Usmash, our Fair trades with his Dair a better option is Bair if you are going for trading hits.

- Kirby's Fair on shield is OoS Usmashable. If he retreats his Fair DO NOT follow him. On a whiff due to Kirby's horrible aerial movement we can easily Dash Usmash him, Fair vs. Fair trades hits, better to trade with a Bair on his whiff, you can also Usmash him on a whiff.

- Kirby's SH Rising Bair is OoS Usmashable, SH Falling Bair is tricky if he doesn't do it perfectly near the ground you can OoS Usmash it, same goes for a sky falling Bair. Retreating Bair is safe though. On a whiff Bair is easily Dash Usmashable, also tradeable with our own Bair.

- Kirby's Uair on shield is an obvious punish and so is whiff

- Kirby's Fsmash on shield is an easy OoS Usmash, on whiff Dair him hand follow-up

- Kirby's Dsmash is another easy punish OoS Usmash, on whiff do the same as Fsmash

- Kirby's Usmash on shield is lol, OoS Usmash him, on whiff Bair, Jab, Pivot Boost Grab, Dash Usmash

- Kirby's Down Special (LOLOOLOLOLOLOL) grab out of shield, on whiff wait for him to turn back to normal and procceed to **** him.

- Kirby's Side Special IS unpunishable on shield, on whiff **** him.

- Kirby's Up Special is OoS Usmashable, interrupt him while he is falling with his Up B either Usmash or Uair, Up B can't really whiff but, PS the shockwave and punish accordingly.

- Kirby's Dtilt is OoS Usmashable, on whiff walk grab don't try anything else

- Kirby's Utilt is OoS Usmashable, on whiff Dash Usmash or Pivot Boost Grab

- Kirby's Ftilt is not OoS Usmashable BUT you can unshield Dash Usmash, on whiff Dash Usmash, walk grab, or Pivot Boost Grab

- Kirby's Jab is unpunishable on shield and on whiff DO NOT challenge it.

- Kirby's Grab is an obvious you can't shield it, on whiff you can dash Usmash or grab back yourself, now if you are in the air FF Nair and Dair also work.
__________________________________________________________________________

Sonic Punishment
__________________________________________________________________________
Nair- is OoS Usmashable and easy to shieldgrab, on a whiff you can Fair, Bair wait till he starts his fall and dair, Usmash, grab, Dsmash, or Fsmash (don't ever expect to see this move from a good sonic though)

Fair- is OoS Usmashable you can't shieldgrab it, on whiff you can beat it with Fair, Usmash, or Bair

Dair- is OoS Usmashable and also another one easy to shieldgrab, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dair follow up him

Rising Bair- is NOT OoS Usmashable sonic is completely safe, on whiff strike back with Fair,Bair, or Usmash

Falling Bair- will cause lag which you can unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff grab,Usmash
Don't even worry about Uair cause you won't even see a sonic try to Uair a grounded opponet if he does just **** him

Fsmash - IS NOT OoS Usmashable BUT you can Unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash

Dsmash - is another that is not OoS Usmashable but you unshield and dash Usmash or Dash attack, on whiff the best reconmendation is SH Dair

Usmash - is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff punish with what you feel like (this is another move you shouldn't expect a Sonic to do against a grounded opponet)

Ftilt- can only be shieldgrabbed, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash all other moves are too slow

Dtilt - can be tricky you can't shieldgrab but if you predict it you can SH Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dash attack

Utilt- is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff Usmash, grab, ftilt, reverse Utilt, don't aerial this move's whiff

DO NOT TRY AND SHIELD ANY OF HIS SPINDASHES! If you can see them coming you stop with basically and move i would go the safe way and use a falling aerial on it though, use Nair or Dair, jab and utilt does clank with it though

Lol don't try to punish the rise in Sonic's Spring Jump, read his fall and punish Uair will be best since it outproitizes all of his aerials

Don't even worry about Homing Attack don't expect a good one to use this either he does it's easy to dodge and punish, interupt with Fair
__________________________________________________________________________

Lucas Punishment
__________________________________________________________________________

- Lucas Fsmash is Unpunishable on shield. On whiff do what you like to him.

- Lucas Rising Dair IS punishable OoS Usmash, timing is key! Usmash his last hit of Dair. If he whiffs Rising Fair after him, our tipper Uair trades with his dair so not an option.

- Lucas Sh Bair is NOT punishable on shield. On a whiff your best option of punishment is Dash attack his aerial movement is hard to reach. Trying punish this move is not reconmended. Sit back and laser.

__________________________________________________________________________

Metakinght Punishment *From TKD*
__________________________________________________________________________

- Full hop fair (whiffed): Dash into MK and Usmash or dash into MK and short hop fair.
- Full hop nair: Very difficult (although possible) to punish because of its low cool-down (although impossible from block unless maybe when powerblocked). Counterable with a preemptive short-hop dair and it's possible to interrupt it if the opponent does actually commit to it) though.
- Full hop dair (whiffed): Full hop fair.
- Short hop fair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack (dash usmash is better of course). DIFFICULT/UNSAFE/UNLIKELY
- Short hop nair (whiffed): Dash usmash, dash attack.
- Short hop dair (whiffed or blocked): Dash usmash, dash short-hop fair; unblock, dash usmash.
- Dash attack (blocked): Unblock, dsmash.
- Short hop fair (miss-spaced and blocked): Usmash from block. If not "inside" Fox and completely at Fox's backside, unblock and utilt.
- Landing fair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing nair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing dair (blocked): Usmash from block. Requires Meta Knight to not drift away (be in usmash range).
- Landing uair (anything): Shield-grab if blocking, anything if not (including moving away because its landing cool-down is very small). If this happens it's probably the opposing player's mistake.
- Dsmash (blocked or whiffed): Dash usmash or unblock, dash usmash. Punish dsmash every time you block it. Be aware that the second hit only has a 4 frame window for usmash to hit it, so it may be hard if it's tippered. Always possible when powerblocked.
- Shuttle loop (back facing Meta Knight): Full hop bair.
- Shuttle loop (facing Meta Knight): Full hop fair/nair.
If there's no time, walk under Meta Knight to usmash him. Dash under him uair works too. If there's really no time at all, block the glide attack. If it's miss-spaced horizontally (too close), shield-grab. If it's miss-spaced vertically (too high), usmash from block.
- Mach Tornado: Usmash or powerblock.
- Ftilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dtilt: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
- Dsmash: Short-hop dair (short-hop over the attack. Must be predicted).
__________________________________________________________________________

Marth Punishment
__________________________________________________

- Marth's Rising or Falling Fair is OoS Usmashable but can't be shieldgrabbed, on whiff SH Fair him, when landing Dash attack/Usmash his landing

- Marth's Nair can not be shieldgrabbed but in-between Nair hit 1 and Nair hit 2 you can OoS Usmash him, on whiff dash shieldgrab his landing or don't follow him at all

- Marth's Dtilt is not OoS Usmashable or shieldgrabbable but only on prediction you can Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Marth is safe

- Marth's Dancing Blade hit 4 can be OoS Usmashed, on whiff Dash Usmash

- Marth's Ftilt is not shieldgrabbable or OoS Usmashable, on whiff basically do what you'd like to him

- Marth's Dolphin Slash gets ***** on whiff or block no need for advice here

- Marth's Jab also gets ***** like DS

- Marth's Bair can only be punished by unshielding Dash Usmashing/attacking, on whiff SH Fair or Dash attack/Usmash

__________________________________________________________________________

Game and Watch Punishment
__________________________________________________________________________

- GnW's Bair is OoS Usmashable in-between hits and is not shieldgrabbable, on whiff Dash Usmash
__________________________________________________________________________

Toon Link Punishment
__________________________________________________

- Rising Nair is not shieldgrabbable but OoS Usmashable, if retreated unshield and dash Usmash/attack, on whiff SH Fair, Usmash/Dash Usmash, Dash attack

- Rising Bair is unpunishable on whiff dash Usmash/attack, however falling bair is punishable, unshield Dash attack, Usmash

- Uair is something you will not encounter while grounded

- Dair is something you will not ecounter while grounded

- Dtilt is unpunishable on whiff and block but if predicted can be Dair/Nair/Bair'd over

- Ftilt on block is punishable unshield dash Usmash/attack, on whiff the punishments are the same

- All jabs are punishable, OoS Usmash, OoS Nair, OoS Dair on Jab 3
__________________________________________________________________________

Fox Mix-ups and Frame Traps Key

*Stuffed - An aerial that goes through until landing
*Rising - An aerial performed while rising in the jump
*Falling - An aerial performed while falling in the jump
*Cross-up - landing behind opponent
*JJC - Jab Jab Cancel
*AD - Airdodge
*RAR - Reverse Aerial Rush
*AC- Auto Cancel
*SH - Short Hop
*FH - Full Jump
*Nair - Neutral Air
*Fair - Foward Air
*Bair - Back Air
*Dair - Down Air

Note to Readers on Mix-ups: Mix-ups are meant to catch and punish players habits or force a certain reaction out of them to punish, they are not 100% foolproof.
_____________________________________________________________
II. Mix-ups

- Stuffed SH Nair Cross-up>Utilt on shielded opponent (works best if they grab because of hit confirm on shield from Nair)

- Cross-up AC Bair (SH or FH depends on their habits) completely safe even if shielded

- Cross-up RAR SH Nair

- Shading

_____________________________________________________________
III. Frametraps

-FH Rising Uair to Falling Uair on ADing opponents, works best at a Fox head above FH height

- AC FH Falling Dair, traps ADing opponents can lead to kills

- AC Bair, -2 frame disadv. on shield enough time to utilt, jab, run away

- JJC>Shine,JJC,grab

- Stuffed SH Nair on ADing opponents

- Stuffed SH Dair on ADing opponents

- Stuffed SH Nair on spotdodges

- Stuffed SH Dair on spotdodges



So we need to get to work!
 
*CT*

*CT*

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
1,861
Location
Fayetteville, NC
I need to keep notecards now so I can apply this stuff when I play x.x
I suck at memorizing things.
Great info though.
 
luke_atyeo

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
what happened to this guys, this all looks very promising, it'd be great if we could finish it.

I might, if I get the chance, do some testing of my own and put my results up
 
rPSIvysaur

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
16,415
You can't Up-Smash Lucas in between hits of his D-air. He has 8 frames from when the hitbox hits your shield and with a HLM of .5, you're going to still be in SHL while Lucas continues with the move which will make a 1 frame SHLD then add the 1 frame of shieldstun that you get from the move. After that you only have 6 frames. Then you have to jump OoS to do the Jump Cancel U-smash which means you have 5 frames. In which you will not be able to perform a U-smash OoS.
 
rPSIvysaur

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
16,415
Oh. When you said rising D-air I assumed you meant the rising part. lol.

Lucas will probably space it so he doesn't get hit by the U-smash unless he's stupid.
 
TKD

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,587
Location
Tijuana, México
You need to specify more. Some are possible simply from block, others are possible with unblock+dash usmash, etc..

Here are some of mine. Some of these may already be in post 1, some are new. Dash attack makes a ton of these easier and many others possible, but this is only a list of usmashes vs whiffed/blocked moves.

vs MK:
  • This is new, and very useful. After predicting a dtilt, buffer usmash from block during shield-stun. Easier than it sounds. There's no existing video recording of this technique yet, but everyone should be doing this.

    Notes: Works vs things like single hit of ftilt. Comes out between hits vs usmash and bair. The usmash gets buffered for auto-release after fair's 3 hits (Fox doesn't unblock until after the 3rd hit). Convenient stuff.
    If you didn't expect the dtilt, but think he'll quickly dtilt again (which makes MK scoot forward), you can wait for the 2nd dtilt to do this. I don't think the opponent should double dtilt quickly because of the scoot, but if you're facing that kind of opponent, fine.

    IMPORTANT: This is an approach+read. You walk or dash up to him and do this because Fox slides forward allowing usmash to reach and/or the opponent to miss-space. You can't just stand still being all stiff (like a noob) and think that you can block a dtilt and do this. You'd be a sitting duck for other moves and making it easy for him to space.
  • vs dsmash: block, unblock, walk/dash usmash. No need to expect anything. You should do this every time. Very difficult vs dsmash's 2nd hit. You probably have to be one of those guys that play a lot to do that...it ***** of course.
  • vs shfair: wait for a close whiff (or walk into him so you get closer to his whiff) and dash usmash him. Usmash should land between his landtime and couple of autocancel frames.
    Note: you can, of course, usmash this from block if the opponent miss-spaces it.
  • vs ftilt: Predict its end at hit 1 or 2 and usmash from block immediately after whichever you predicted. If the opponent does all 3 hits (you can wait for that too, but it's very very risky for them so it shouldn't be common), you can unblock and dash usmash as if you blocked a dsmash (so you can usmash him even if he's out of range because of the chance to unblock + dash...again, just like vs dsmash).
  • vs dash attack: Predict it and turn your back vs MK and block. Usmash from block.
  • vs dash grab (whiff): somehow usmash him during his long cool-down.
    Note: I think you may be able to easily spot-dodge and usmash vs his dash grab as a counter. I don't care enough to check the frame data right now.

    Note: I never developed this reaction, but it's possible theoretically. Unblock ASAP, turn around usmash (buffered during unblock recommended if you have the tech-skill...and developing that skill is recommended if you want to pull this off). <- vs dash atk

vs Snake:
  • vs utilt: Block, unblock, dash usmash.
  • vs utilt (whiff): You can bait this move by standing/moving around just outside of its range. Dash usmash.
  • vs ftilt (hit 2): block, unblock, dash usmash.
  • vs ftilt (hit 1): powerblock, usmash from block. <- not recommended as he may just grab you or anything
    Note: I've tried baiting this whiff, which is possible I guess, but then I just get hit by the 2nd hit...which you can block, unblock, usmash against. Interesting...
  • vs dtilt (whiff): dash usmash.
    Note: if you block this and are close enough you can usmash from block, however uncommon this scenario may end up being.
  • vs dash attack: Predict it and turn your back vs Snake and block. Usmash from block.

vs Falco:
  • vs jab (blocked)
    Case A - predict a single jab: usmash from block immediately after blocking jab 1.
    Case B - predict the 2nd jab: As soon as the 2nd jab touches your shield, usmash from block ASAP. Neither Falco's jab cancel nor his rapid jabs have time to come out.
    Note: I wouldn't go for these reads while in chaingrab % (< 28%).
  • vs usmash/fsmash/dsmash (whiffed/blocked): (unblock,) dash usmash. Lots of cool-down.
    Note: Seems difficult vs sour-spot fsmash. Either sourspot's hitbox comes out later, or it's just more difficult to notice. I think I've had trouble with it, may just be me, or maybe there's never been a problem and my memory fails me.
  • vs landing dair/bair: usmash from block. Powerblock preferable (and makes it more likely for the spacing to work out. If the spacing's right, powerblock confirms your usmash because Fox won't be pushed back.
  • vs landing whiffed dair/bair: dash usmash to hit during Falco's landing cool-down.
  • vs dash attack: usmash from block, or unblock+turn around+usmash. Depends on whether he'll go through Fox or not, and timing. If you wrongly usmash from block while Falco goes through you, usmash will sour hit.
    Note: it's not a bad idea to watch out for DACUS.
  • vs phantasm: face away from Falco, predict the timing, usmash.

    Notes: deadly when Falco, at KO %, only has the option to phantasm onto either the stage or the ledge, and you're near the ledge. This is because, given proper execution, there's a 50/50 chance of him losing a stock: either by an usmash or a ledgehog. In case someone's wondering about phantasm cancel Lv.1, that dies to ledgehog too.
    If Fox isn't near the ledge, Falco can either go for the ledge or Lv.1or2 cancel so he reaches the stage but not Fox.
    If Falco's not at KO %, there are easier moves to land, like utilt while facing Falco (because it comes out behind Fox), and dash attack (into Falco if far away, away from Falco if closer).
    This hitting away from Falco thing is because the first 3rd of phantasm's trajectory is invincible.
    If you ever pin Falco out of his phantasm into the ground with a dair, jab him once to activate his landing pentalty, then hit him with a smash of your choice.
  • PREDICTION. vs SHDL from too close: dash usmash. This is because he's stuck in the air during this. You can predict as soon as he hops, but it's always a possibility for him to air-dodge instead of SHDLing.

PS: QCDIing upwards during MK's nado seems to SHARPLY increase chances of popping up. I like to pop out and dair him. Pretty broken. Whatever you do, just don't pop out and air-dodge. MT will outlast that.
 
knuckles213

knuckles213

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
654
Location
Up smashing your girlfriend
Thanks for the info.
I got couple of questions:

1)do you have any replays to demonstrate some of this techniques in play?
2) got any way to get past Mk's shuttle loop spam?
3) what if snake plays a tough ground game, what can I do? (consisting of pivot grabs, lot of grenades, power shielding, and set ups)
4)got advice on vs marth + recover against his edge guard skills
 
Chef Fox

Chef Fox

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
169
TKD I tested in training mode what percent Upsmash is safe on Meta Knight. From 0 - 15% Upsmash is not safe on MK, he can use Dair after the Upsmash and Fox is unable to do anything because of his lag.

FOR STANDING UPSMASH: At the earlier percents(0 to ~6%), Meta Knight can simply Dair right after the Upsmash hit, possibly even Nair. After that, he has to predict the Upsmash or maybe just react quickly, because he needs to Smash DI the Upsmash into Fox to get the Dair off.

FOR DASH UPSMASH: Fox is not safe at all from 0 - 15% because the Dash Upsmash puts Fox underneath Meta Knight, where the Dair can hit Fox during his lag. Meta Knight does not need to Smash DI the Upsmash at all to get in the correct position to Dair. The earlier the percent, the more likely it is that Meta Knight can also us Nair after Fox's Dash Upsmash, again with no Smash DI needed.

These percents were tested with fresh Upsmashes, I'm not sure how far it goes with stale Upsmashes, should that ever occur.

Bottom line: Don't Upsmash Meta Knight before 16%

I thought this information was important if anyone actually manages to develop the reaction of Upsmashing Meta Knight after his moves
 
TKD

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,587
Location
Tijuana, México
@cheffox: nice! so it's 16% then. 7% for standing (though i wonder why you'd standing usmash at that %). and 48% or something for dash attack (it'd rock if you checked that too)...but for dash attack, i remember it working at 0~10% because they had to air-jump dair since falling aerial doesn't have time to come out (probably shuttleloop works too) and most players won't react that well.

knuckles213 said:
Thanks for the info.
I got couple of questions:

1)do you have any replays to demonstrate some of this techniques in play?
2) got any way to get past Mk's shuttle loop spam?
3) what if snake plays a tough ground game, what can I do? (consisting of pivot grabs, lot of grenades, power shielding, and set ups)
4)got advice on vs marth + recover against his edge guard skills
Click to expand...
1) no
2) punish them
3) bait the pivot grab to dash usmash or dash attack him. laser his grenades or catch+toss, or avoid. if you're getting powerblocked you're being predictable.
4) marth is good at edgeguarding. i say get away from him enough that he has to upb to return to the stage and sideb to the stage yourself as he's stuck at the ledge, or lv3 illusion into the stage from a greater height than he's at so he can't reach you (airspeed vs groundspeed). also, if you're at the ledge, watch the spot marth's at to return. if he's far away, a simple ledgeclimb will do. if he's close up, you can ledgedrop airjump and illusion through him. if you want, you can do the classic recovery from ledge and ledgejump,airjumpfair,regainground. those are the ideas that pop into my head right now.

i'm studying this stuff a bit as well as my smash blogs...i lost touch of being good at brawl some time ago. i'm all rusty and dumb now...it's fun, but not cool.


btw it'd be nice if you specified possibilities at post 1
usmash from block: yes/no/requires powerblock/requires buffer during shieldstun, +recommendation
unblock, usmash: yes/requires dash usmash/requires turnaround usmash (buffer recommended)
dash attack vs whiff: yes
dash usmash vs whiff: yes

examples:
falco
landing dair
usmash from block: yes (powerblock recommended for spacing)
unblock, usmash: no
dash attack vs whiff: yes
dash usmash vs whiff: yes

mk
dtilt
usmash from block: yes (requires buffer during shield-stun) <- shieldgrab is super easy compared to this :)
unblock, usmash: no
unblock, dash attack: no
dash attack vs whiff: no
dash usmash vs whiff: no

i'll explain the usmash from block vs mk's dtilt:
- it's like this. i tell my friend to block my dtilt and usmash from block. he does it. he does it again. before i can block. why? because he knows i'm going to dtilt him, and he knows i'll try to space it well (so i'll activate it from pretty far away).
- so, if you act as though you KNOW a dtilt's coming, you're able to react to it with your usmash. during a match, you may be wrong on your read (but with practice you'll learn to spot the moments your opponents will want to do certain moves), but if you're right, you're sure to KO him. that's why this is important. you kill with a read. you just have to be confident about it.
- with the opponent being able to die by one of many reads, it can become easy to get him to 140% and kill with sweetspot utilt at the ground, or an uair while they're in the air. you need to polish your usmash reads though, to make sure they're that limited all the way through (if you're not limiting them as much as you can, it sucks because they retain lots of options even at high percents).
- granted, this is difficult at high level. the opponent will probably roll through you at moments you'd like to standing grab or usmash. a cool read is facing your back to him and dash usmashing his roll xD it's all reads.
 
Chef Fox

Chef Fox

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
169
So I've been testing MK v. Dash Attack, and I've found out a lot of different possibly useful information. All the following info was tested with a fresh Dash Attack in Training Mode. No stale moves were used.

And by punishable I mean Fox's shield does not come out in time to block MK's attack.

Fox's Dash Attack has three stages/parts/phases, whatever you want to call them.
• The first is the Initial Dash Attack(IDA). It does 7% damage and when it makes contact with the opponent, it puts them directly above Fox. Meta Knight can punish IDA until 60% with Dair, no SDI used (not to say that SDI would affect his ability to punish Fox, but when I was testing I did not use SDI). From 0-26% Meta Knight can use jump Dair, after that regular Dair works fine(note MK can start using regular Dair before 27%, ~20% and up, but jump Dair also works until 27%).
• The second is Middle Dash Attack(MDA). This is the part of Dash Attack after IDA, but I'm not sure what frame it comes out on. It still does 7% damage, but when it hits the opponent, it puts them in front of and above Fox. Meta Knight can punish MDA with Dair until 55% with no SDI used. MK can use jump Dair from 0-23%, after that regular Dair is fine(same as IDA, regular Dair can be used before 24%).
• The third stage of Dash Attack is End Dash Attack(EDA). This comes out after MDA, and is during the very final frames of Dash Attack, although I'm still not sure of the exact frame data. EDA only does 5% damage, and has very little knockback. It puts the opponent directly in front of Fox; if you hit a standing opponent with EDA, they will not move at lower percents. Because Fox's Dash Attack ends almost immediately after the EDA hitbox, there is very little cool down, so things like a buffered grab work well if EDA is used. MK "can't" punish you after EDA because Fox's shield comes out too quickly. At mid to high percents, shield grab works well after EDA because you can shield a predictable Uair or Nair very easily, just don't grab if the MK jumps, it can be punished. Same with OoS Up Smash.

EDA was quite funky to be honest. Some times I was able to get off a buffered grab, and even once or twice I did EDA -> Buffered Grab -> Buffered pummel -> air release MK -> Dash Up Smash. But other times I got Uaired by MK. It seems like you really have to hit with the very end of Dash Attack for things like grab to work, and even then it has to be at mid percents. Too early and MK is on the ground, ready to spot doge the grab. Too late and he is too far away to grab. Plus it's almost impossible to use this in a real match, because why would a MK be standing still? Most of the time you will get MDA, so be aware that it's punishable until 55%.

I would also like to note that if you use Dash Attack really late while passing through MK, he is launched backward so far that it is unpunishable.
 
knuckles213

knuckles213

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
654
Location
Up smashing your girlfriend
TKD said:
@cheffox: nice! so it's 16% then. 7% for standing (though i wonder why you'd standing usmash at that %). and 48% or something for dash attack (it'd rock if you checked that too)...but for dash attack, i remember it working at 0~10% because they had to air-jump dair since falling aerial doesn't have time to come out (probably shuttleloop works too) and most players won't react that well.



1) no
2) punish them
3) bait the pivot grab to dash usmash or dash attack him. laser his grenades or catch+toss, or avoid. if you're getting powerblocked you're being predictable.
4) marth is good at edgeguarding. i say get away from him enough that he has to upb to return to the stage and sideb to the stage yourself as he's stuck at the ledge, or lv3 illusion into the stage from a greater height than he's at so he can't reach you (airspeed vs groundspeed). also, if you're at the ledge, watch the spot marth's at to return. if he's far away, a simple ledgeclimb will do. if he's close up, you can ledgedrop airjump and illusion through him. if you want, you can do the classic recovery from ledge and ledgejump,airjumpfair,regainground. those are the ideas that pop into my head right now.

i'm studying this stuff a bit as well as my smash blogs...i lost touch of being good at brawl some time ago. i'm all rusty and dumb now...it's fun, but not cool.


btw it'd be nice if you specified possibilities at post 1
usmash from block: yes/no/requires powerblock/requires buffer during shieldstun, +recommendation
unblock, usmash: yes/requires dash usmash/requires turnaround usmash (buffer recommended)
dash attack vs whiff: yes
dash usmash vs whiff: yes

examples:
falco
landing dair
usmash from block: yes (powerblock recommended for spacing)
unblock, usmash: no
dash attack vs whiff: yes
dash usmash vs whiff: yes

mk
dtilt
usmash from block: yes (requires buffer during shield-stun) <- shieldgrab is super easy compared to this :)
unblock, usmash: no
unblock, dash attack: no
dash attack vs whiff: no
dash usmash vs whiff: no

i'll explain the usmash from block vs mk's dtilt:
- it's like this. i tell my friend to block my dtilt and usmash from block. he does it. he does it again. before i can block. why? because he knows i'm going to dtilt him, and he knows i'll try to space it well (so i'll activate it from pretty far away).
- so, if you act as though you KNOW a dtilt's coming, you're able to react to it with your usmash. during a match, you may be wrong on your read (but with practice you'll learn to spot the moments your opponents will want to do certain moves), but if you're right, you're sure to KO him. that's why this is important. you kill with a read. you just have to be confident about it.
- with the opponent being able to die by one of many reads, it can become easy to get him to 140% and kill with sweetspot utilt at the ground, or an uair while they're in the air. you need to polish your usmash reads though, to make sure they're that limited all the way through (if you're not limiting them as much as you can, it sucks because they retain lots of options even at high percents).
- granted, this is difficult at high level. the opponent will probably roll through you at moments you'd like to standing grab or usmash. a cool read is facing your back to him and dash usmashing his roll xD it's all reads.
Click to expand...
thanks for the info. when you say specify possibilities, I dont know all the terms you guys use/smash lingo to get really detailed. Plus your TKD, I watched some of your matches, you dont seem rusty to me unless you have stopped playing for a while.
 
Chef Fox

Chef Fox

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
169
I agree that this thread is important. Next weekend, if it's alright, I'll test all the punishments for King Dedede. It's a matchup that I play frequently and my crew mate will help me out with it.
 
Kuares

Kuares

Pizza
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
732
Location
"G-Ames?" Iowa
I'll see about working on Diddy and Wario this coming week. Really got to find something to punish Diddy's dashattack.

How'd you want it formatted or should I just look to the OP for an example?
 
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