• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

problems against fox

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
ok so I'm using marth against fox; so far I've tried everykind of trick in the book to beat good fox players. Shuffle and dashdancing strategies seem to work for the most part, but I still end up losing matches. The fox player I play against seems to enjoy dashdancing alot and playing mindgames; I try to play mindgames like dashdance grabing but he seems to adapt quickly to my strategies. Does Marth not fare well against fox or are there things that I'm not doing correctly with Marth?
 

Rapid_Assassin

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,163
Location
RI
There are things you aren't doing correctly with Marth. Or, your friend is simply just a better player. Did you check the Marth boards?
 

Cereal Rabbit

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,536
Location
Davis, CA
Practive your chain grabs. Marth should be one of Fox's worse match up. Once you've chained grabed Fox, pull in a few U-airs then go into a Ken Combo.

Uhm, a video would be nice. :)

Yeah... Try the Marth Boards.
 

iMichael

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
1,900
Location
NorCal
Chain grabs and good edgeguards =D and like cereal wabbit said =D....a ken combo....but listen to this...this is the most important info against a fox...get some sugar, spice and everything nice and you'll know what to do from there.
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
ok I do all of that but eventually he grabs me , throws me up and does the up air kick with fox. I do my best to counter it by hitting him as soon as he does the kick again to throw him back down; but he starts to short up repetely and predict my momevemts. But the thing that makes it worst is that he enjoys to ground dodge ALOT; so I try to dodge his attacks but he still knows when I'm going to dodge. Is there anything (like I said) new that I haven't done and I should do to prove effective against him, or is fox just a counter for marth if you don't count marth's chain grabs?
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
If you're being juggled up in the air, you need to shift left or right to an edge to grab. You're opponent can't juggle you if there is no ground to repeatedly jump from.
 

lolomgwtfbbq

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
119
Marth has a pretty big advantage over Fox. All fox has is the shine while Marth has the dreaded chain throw + tipper fsmash (not that shine isn't AMAZING). Also, watch some videos of pros playing, it'll improve your game lots. Try posting in the Marth forums so that you don't get flamed by forum trolls.
 

Puffer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
171
From what it sounds like, you play the same Fox player over and over again. Thus, he knows your playing style inside and out and can quickly react to anything you're doing, pretty much all of the time.

I'd recommend making some sort of change in the way you play Marth. If you have to, sit back a bit and put yourself on the defensive. Be a beast with the wavedashing, shorthop lots and spam lots of annoying forward-airs to ensure that Fox doesn't get in too close. Remember that Marth has the range advantage over Fox (excepting Fox's lasers), and you should milk that as much as possible. Make sure you keep distance between you and him, and if you have to, work on EVADING the Fox player. You can often trick opponents into attacking riskily when they see that you're trying to avoid them or play defensively, especially when they're comfortable with the match, as your Fox opponent evidently is.

The bottom line right now is that your Fox opponent knows your game too well. Even if you're trying tactics that "should work", he'll always be one step ahead of you and be able to predict your next move, like you said. The smartest thing to do, in my opinion, would be to force that Fox player to COME to you. Harass him with short-hopped forward airs, and if he's big on dodging, just forward-smash him to heck and back after he dodges. If that's too difficult, try throwing him after he dodges - that chain throw of Marth's can lead to 0%-to-death combos in some cases. Again, if you get the sense that your opponent knows what you're doing, retreat from the attack and play as defensively as possible. Watch for stupid mistakes your opponent will make trying to get to you, and in the meantime, watch their playing style and see if you can read into them. That's probably your biggest obstacle (as well as mine and many other players'): learning to read your opponent, while not allowing them to read you. It's what Smash is about.
 

legendofme

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
273
Location
Galveston, Texas
Since you play him very often. I suggest you try out ew stages to counter pick him with. Like pick stages that have very high ceilings like the legal DK stages or Rainbow Cruise. He sounds like a Fox who doesn't rely on the shield to win..more using of Up airs. So pick high ceiling stages, and if he switches his style up take him to moving stages that are hard to combo Marth on.

Yezzir.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
ok so I'm using marth against fox; so far I've tried everykind of trick in the book to beat good fox players. Shuffle and dashdancing strategies seem to work for the most part, but I still end up losing matches. The fox player I play against seems to enjoy dashdancing alot and playing mindgames; I try to play mindgames like dashdance grabing but he seems to adapt quickly to my strategies. Does Marth not fare well against fox or are there things that I'm not doing correctly with Marth?
Don't worry about shuffling vs fox. Generally you don't want to approach fox with an aerial attack, stick to grabs. dashdancing works well, but any good player is gonna catch on. Run behind them and grab, it's a pretty safe option. You'll get the grab off if they dd away, or wd backwards, and if they don't then you're still safe. That should help you with his dd'ing. I stress not using aerials, as Fox WILL grab you in your landing lag. If you do happen to get grabbed, smash your control stick back and forth, like your dd'ing. This is called Smash DI, and it will make sure Fox's Uair combos are limited. Also, there are things you can practice by yourself that will help you IMMENSELY when it comes to actual playing. For now, focus on practicing being in an advantageous position. Here are some examples:

Chaingrabbing, When you're below a platform and your opponent is on it, Edgeguarding, Making them miss techs with a quick dthrow. Practice all that over and over. They are things you can do vs a computer, and although your opponent will still be beating you when you're at an equal state, meaning he may get 2 grabs off for every 1 of yours, just make sure you capitalize on every grab you get to the maximum, to compensate for the fact that he gets more grabs than you.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
1,846
Location
Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
Marth has a pretty big advantage over Fox. All fox has is the shine while Marth has the dreaded chain throw + tipper fsmash (not that shine isn't AMAZING). Also, watch some videos of pros playing, it'll improve your game lots. Try posting in the Marth forums so that you don't get flamed by forum trolls.
Lol. Fox vs. Marth is even.
 

Saith

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
130
yeah marth is better than fox way better. marth has good reach also ya
 

Tajem

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
127
Location
Louisiana
I play my Marth against my friend's Fox all the time. While Marth is more or less my secondary, he actually mains Fox. The matchup is pretty even everytime.

DI-ing out of the dreaded u-throw to uair is **** near impossible at the critical %. So take Puffer's advice and avoid his grabs. D-tilt works wonders as a sort of panic button to push the fox back while you WD into more of a defensive position. Just my thoughts. ^^
 

lolomgwtfbbq

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
119
Well personally, I feel that Marth does have a fairly large advantage against Fox due to his amazing grabs and long sword. He just seems to have many more options available to him. I really haven't played someone who mains fox which is probably why I have I feel this way.
 

xeno

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
910
Location
sydney
I main fox, and I'll let you know what irritates / kills me: f-airs through platforms (not much fox can do about this). Ie, Fox is on the platform, Marth comes up from below and the side.
Spacing: Wavedashing. Marth's wavedash is annoyingly good! Keep your distance, waveland, Fox can't tell where you're going.
You have extreme grab range. If Fox whiffs ANYTHING but a jab, running and JC-grab>up throws is usually a safe bet. Take note of the distance though -- the Fox might whiff to make you attempt to grab, but he has enough distance that he can dodge your grab and then grab you instead.
Things to not do, imo: don't spam f-smash (you probably don't.. but just in case :p)
Don't let Fox get too close. Shines can be deadly -- a common Fox tactic is to wavedash spacing, then run, shine or aerial>shine> chase + combo.
The things I get hit most by Marths are grabs when I whiff, d-tilts and f-airs. Perfect your timing on your aerials (ie run, jump f-air then jump back and do a f-air / d-air if fox chases to shine/nair you).
As an above poster said, d-tilt is an amazingly good poke, especially since it can cancel into itself. F-tilt is pretty bad at low damages because of so little knockback+stun. Grabs / fairs are much better imo. Gl, hope this helps, someone correct me if I said anything wrong.
 

Ace83

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
215
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
reborn, i have some advice that might really help your current situation, instead of just general advice. If you're getting hit by the up-throw to up-air combo, you aren't DI'ing correctly (you probably know what this is, but just in case, DI = directional influence. If you are holding a direction such as left or right at the exact moment he up-throws you, you will not go straight up and be an easy target for the up-air; you will be thrown up and to the left, or up and to the right, making you much harder to hit with that combo, and at some damage %'s, impossible to hit). This may be hard since he probably up-throws you immediately, but if you continue to dash dance, chances are you will be holding left or right if he grabs you and you will not be thrown straight up for an easy upkick.

Also, like a few others have said, chaingrab. after maybe 3-4 chaingrabs (hitting fox once each time before you throw again for extra damage), use your uptilt to keep the combo going. Fox is a fastfaller just like falco and falcon, and you have to take advantage of this (his recovery time after being hit is about the same, but it seems longer since after you've hit him in the air, he will have fallen back down before he can shine or kick you, since he's a fastfaller). Fox will have to DI in this case to try to escape your combos. Get practice chasing him down with forward airs, forward tilts and maybe even a dash attack here and there. Once you get good at this I guarantee this fox will hate your guts :)

Check out videos of m2k (fox) and ken (marth) [these are 2 of the greats] to notice the good DI (and see what happens when they mess up, they go straight up and are an easy target just like in your case). Also there are some great vids of Cort (marth) and spawn (Fox) that show some great tactics.

One more thing. platform levels!! battlefield is great for sweetspotting tip-shot forward smashes through the platform, and is a difficult edge for fox to grab. Try your best to remain on the ground and NOT in the air during this matchup. hope that helps some.
 

reborn394

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
133
Location
New York, NY
I can't believe I abandoned this thread. Four months have passed since I requested help in this site, and all I've been doing is focusing on Brawl. Regardless, I appreciate all of the help here. Thanks to all of you guys in this thread for helping me out during a time of frustration, and during a time when I wasn't sure of what to do with my life. But now, I'm in college with a goal, and I feel great for being part of the Smash Boards community :)
 

The Last Dragon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
138
Location
London, UK
You need to avoid his grab to uair...if thats what he even does. Use fairs if he trys to approach, thats your defence. And throw a few counters in there as well. when he off the edge make sure he never gets on again. Do that m2k stuff where you use counter when the fox is trying to come back, then instantly follow the fox down and hit him, then jump back on.
 

KyloWinter

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
780
Location
Omaha, NE
Master your chaingrab combos against fox. If you get a grab against fox, fox should end up off the stage. Watch mew2king videos for some help. Fox's best move against you is his uthrow to uair combo. DI left then right then left then right to get out of fox's uair juggles. I hear that when fox is about to hit you with an uair, smash the control stick left and right to cause the uair to only hit you with the weak part of it... I've never actually tried this myself but i hear it works. Don't try to shield grab fox's dash attack, it won't work. Utilt through platforms and keep fox above you. Don't try to shield grab an aerial by fox, he will l-cancel it into a shine and you will be hit.

Once you get fox off the stage use your jab to edgeguard if fox is going to sweet spot forward b. If fox is using his up b, use counter to send fox back out. You can also jump out there when fox is charging his up b and hit was an aerial or reverse up b.

Melee is better than brawl.
 
Top Bottom