mach5
Smash Journeyman
yeah but its hard to get a wii.
-
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Pro Impact BI-WEEKLIES - Calgary, AB
- Thread starter Randall00
- Start date
kithkin
Smash Champion
>.> No offense, but I could get a wii by tommorow if I wanted, easily.
And I'm not very compitent.
Its just people are **** Lazy.
And I'm not very compitent.
Its just people are **** Lazy.
mach5
Smash Journeyman
im not asking for your opinion. im asking to see if anyone wants to buy it. kithx
In my opinion, Captain Falcon isn't that bad. He's certainly not as powerful as Melee, but he still has a ton of options, and his recovery is loads better (including side B which can spike people who try to be too fancy, and don't endanger Falcon at all if he does it close to the edge). The knee has a much smaller hitbox, but up-air and back-air are just as good as Melee, and I think he can chain throw some people.
I think he'll be in the middle tier-ish, which is way better than people are pegging him now.
I think he'll be in the middle tier-ish, which is way better than people are pegging him now.
Oops!
Codes are one of those things a person should double-check before pressing the 'send' button...
Brawl Code: 1805-1849-3148
sorry.
kithkin
Smash Champion
>.> er- sorry Allan.
and Ricky, I agree, but he's certainly below a good amount of people this time which is sad,
But does his side B grab the ledge? I cant remember, cause if it can thats a ton more recovery options like you said, since it bounces if somebody gets in the way.
Oh, and can DK's downthrow chain throw? Like genereally heavy characters and at least 3 times?
Cause I kinda noticed it, but I dont have anyone good to play with so I dont know if it actually works.
But that would be cool, downthrow X 3, upthrow, Upair, Upair, Bair, and Dair.
(I think DK's dair is a lot better this time)
and Ricky, I agree, but he's certainly below a good amount of people this time which is sad,
But does his side B grab the ledge? I cant remember, cause if it can thats a ton more recovery options like you said, since it bounces if somebody gets in the way.
Oh, and can DK's downthrow chain throw? Like genereally heavy characters and at least 3 times?
Cause I kinda noticed it, but I dont have anyone good to play with so I dont know if it actually works.
But that would be cool, downthrow X 3, upthrow, Upair, Upair, Bair, and Dair.
(I think DK's dair is a lot better this time)
mach5
Smash Journeyman
i kinda like falcon except that he can't shffl knees and thats where his kills come from.
kithkin
Smash Champion
Pssh, its all about spikes.
I <3 Spikes.
They're just so cool.
Oh and I was playing Luke and found out falcons upair ***** warios bikecovery.
I <3 Spikes.
They're just so cool.
Oh and I was playing Luke and found out falcons upair ***** warios bikecovery.
Stevo
Smash Champion
I cant play falcon out of principle that he is nothing like he was in melee.
same as jiggly.
why fix something that aint broke?
DK is awesome, except he's coutered hardcore by toon link, marth, dedede.... and others.
did i mention those are some of the most popular chars too? lol
same as jiggly.
why fix something that aint broke?
DK is awesome, except he's coutered hardcore by toon link, marth, dedede.... and others.
did i mention those are some of the most popular chars too? lol
Well, first of all, you could easily make the case that it was broken.
That's why Brawl plays quite different from Melee, because they wanted to address all these tactics which the developers clearly did not want to be possible in Brawl.Secondly, any character which relied on SHFFL spams is clearly going to play significantly differently in a game where you cannot SHFFL. They didn't remove Falcon's other options, though. They only really nerfed the knee (and the hit-stun on the d-air). His recovery is better, his up-air and back-air are both better, and for kicks, his falcon punch is much better.
Falcon can still get plenty of kills without SHFFL, mainly because... no one can SHFFL anymore.
I'm finding it a lot better (with all characters, really) to NOT fast-fall most aerial moves because it just creates that lag when you land. Ganon's d-air is a prime example of a move that should almost never be fast-falled. Sonic's f-air is another good example. I'm constantly getting hit after I do Sonic's f-air because I fast fall it, and needlessly create landing lag. If I just keep it in the air for the duration of the move (the guy has to block anyway), then when I land I have full control over my character. This is going to be a huge paradigm shift from Melee, and it will take people a while to get used to it.
Stevo
Smash Champion
I agree with what you are saying, but trust me, I tried to use falcon.
I tried to brawlify my strategy with him, and play him like a totally new character, but it just didnt work that well.
his forward b doesnt link into up airs nearly as well as you would think.
he has almost no ways of approaching
As a DK player from melee, I am used to doing air moves and letting them finish before landing, so dont take it that Im just playing the characters like they are still in melee.
Im just saying, DK still feels like DK, mario still feels like mario, peach feels like peach.
Falcon.... I just dont know.... doesnt feel the same.
Even if he sucked but still felt FALCONY, I would be fine with it. BUt hes mediocre, and doesnt feel right lol.
also, I would like to add DEDEDE and METAKNIGHT to my previous tier list. Metaknight in top and DEDEDE high in high tier.
I was playing meta today, and he owns. having little kill power is nothing with all the pressure he packs.
also, his down smash and up b seem to do fine at killing. plus, he can edgeguard well.
Im still not sure where to put Sonic and Olimar... Ive played sonic a bunch, but I just dont know. He could be high tier. Im quite sure hes not top tier material tho. Unless some glitch or abuse is found with him.
EDIT: I rarely fast fall anything, mostly Back airs, but even then....
WARNING: RANT ABOUT BRAWL ABOUT TO COMMENCE, READ FURTHER AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION. (keep in mind that I dont hate brawl, im just expressing my anger/dissapointment)
What annoys me the most about brawl, is that they were on the right track in many things.
I love the idea that some moves just have to not be fast falled to be used properly. I love gliding, super armor, getting hit while grabbed doesnt lock you in, but you attack faster while you have them grabbed, etc etc.
theres more but I just cant think right now.
but... why oh why did they add things like Tripping!!!!!!!
or the fact that 90% of throws are useless?
combos = banned? why cant I combo any move that isnt an automatic combo?
why why why. they could have made brawl a party game, and left in the competetive aspects. It wouldnt have been that hard.
Samus, Ganon, Falcon, Jiggly etc were all characters I thought were perfectly balanced in melee. As in, they were good but not over powered.
guess what? they were all nerfed.
/Rant
so anyways, if anyone wants to brawl my FC is 1719-2961-9409 now
I would like to conclude with
IKE IS A BEAST and HIS FINAL SMASH WILL EAT YOUR SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for his friends
I tried to brawlify my strategy with him, and play him like a totally new character, but it just didnt work that well.
his forward b doesnt link into up airs nearly as well as you would think.
he has almost no ways of approaching
As a DK player from melee, I am used to doing air moves and letting them finish before landing, so dont take it that Im just playing the characters like they are still in melee.
Im just saying, DK still feels like DK, mario still feels like mario, peach feels like peach.
Falcon.... I just dont know.... doesnt feel the same.
Even if he sucked but still felt FALCONY, I would be fine with it. BUt hes mediocre, and doesnt feel right lol.
also, I would like to add DEDEDE and METAKNIGHT to my previous tier list. Metaknight in top and DEDEDE high in high tier.
I was playing meta today, and he owns. having little kill power is nothing with all the pressure he packs.
also, his down smash and up b seem to do fine at killing. plus, he can edgeguard well.
Im still not sure where to put Sonic and Olimar... Ive played sonic a bunch, but I just dont know. He could be high tier. Im quite sure hes not top tier material tho. Unless some glitch or abuse is found with him.
EDIT: I rarely fast fall anything, mostly Back airs, but even then....
WARNING: RANT ABOUT BRAWL ABOUT TO COMMENCE, READ FURTHER AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION. (keep in mind that I dont hate brawl, im just expressing my anger/dissapointment)
What annoys me the most about brawl, is that they were on the right track in many things.
I love the idea that some moves just have to not be fast falled to be used properly. I love gliding, super armor, getting hit while grabbed doesnt lock you in, but you attack faster while you have them grabbed, etc etc.
theres more but I just cant think right now.
but... why oh why did they add things like Tripping!!!!!!!
or the fact that 90% of throws are useless?
combos = banned? why cant I combo any move that isnt an automatic combo?
why why why. they could have made brawl a party game, and left in the competetive aspects. It wouldnt have been that hard.
Samus, Ganon, Falcon, Jiggly etc were all characters I thought were perfectly balanced in melee. As in, they were good but not over powered.
guess what? they were all nerfed.
/Rant
so anyways, if anyone wants to brawl my FC is 1719-2961-9409 now
I would like to conclude with
IKE IS A BEAST and HIS FINAL SMASH WILL EAT YOUR SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for his friends
Just a few notes about your rant that are worth thinking about (wall of text imminent, because I'm bored):
The team obviously didn't like the way the metagame for Melee progressed. I think they saw things like Sheik landing a single throw and building up 80% of the roster to 100% without any effort, followed by a KO (remember, Sheik was supposed to not have much KO potential) that caused them to greatly rethink how they wanted Smash to be played. It's not that Brawl isn't a competitive game... it's that it's a game that's played differently from Melee. The de-emphasis of grabs (and, mostly, the ability to combo out of them) is a direct consequence of how easily the good characters could KO off grabs in Melee.
Similarly, I think it's a lot more difficult than you think to have a game that emphasizes combos and that isn't horribly broken. As soon as you let people combo at length, characters get broken (for evidence, look at ANY fighting game with a flexible combo engine... 0 to death or full bar combos are regular occurrences in these games. Examples include Guilty Gear, Alpha 3 (any character A-ism), CvS2 (Sakura and Bison A-groove), etc). Now I love combos as much as the next guy, and in Brawl they are possible under certain circumstances, but it's not what the game is largely about, and I don't think it's fair to say that this type of game is less competitive. Is spacing less or more important than combo ability? Is it not better to give all players, both offensive and defensive, more options at any time? I think Brawl does about a good a job of this as you can expect.
Also, as an experienced programmer and student of game making, I think you should reconsider saying things like "it wouldn't have been that hard to do [...]" until you've actually tried to do it yourself. Even the seemingly simplest of tasks is probably many orders of magnitude tougher than most people realize, and "leaving in [ability to freely combo]" is certainly far from the easiest of tasks, especially considering they want this game to be balanced with 8 million people playing it for the next 7 years.
My opinion on this may change in the coming year or so, but I currently believe Brawl has succeeded in what I think the team set out to do: create a balanced (as much as possible) fighting game that can be played in competitive circles, as well as by those who don't play games much, and be enjoyed by all. They wanted to keep the game as much like Smash as possible, while removing the aspects of Melee that caused the game to be played in a way they did not like.
Finally, I can't really defend the team's decision to include tripping. I would like to know their rationale for it. It's the only aspect of Brawl I don't like.
EDIT - Also, when you talk about characters in Melee you think are "perfectly balanced", again, you have to take into consideration that the strategies that made them balanced were only possible in the Melee engine. When you change the way the game works at a fundamental level, there is some collateral... "damage", if you want to call it that. They can't keep these 4 characters' playstyles exactly the same, because they relied on Melee timing/gravity/physics, Samus and Ganondorf especially. You can't transplant any character from Melee directly into Brawl and expect everything to work the same (except maybe Marth). You might want to think of it in this theoretical way: in order to create a roster which had maybe 20 "perfectly balanced characters" (not necessarily the same ones as in Melee), instead of 6 or fewer like in Melee, they had to change the properties for all returning characters. Coming up with 39 unique movesets that all play differently, but are all able to compete against any other character, is a task of monumental proportions. One small factor for any of the characters, or one small factor in the game engine itself, can completely shatter your game. In these early stages of analyzing the game, I'm amazed at the success to which they pulled it off.
EDIT 2 - Unfortunately, I agree with your Metaknight assessment. I don't know why, but I'm not a big fan of the character's playstyle, so I'm a bit sad that I'm going to be seeing a lot of him. Also, I'm not exactly sure how well the community is receiving Sonic, but he has a lot going for him. B-air is a great KO move, and so is f-smash (even though it's somewhat hard to hit). His d-smash is an excellent move, all of his B moves have purpose, and he's an excellent edge-guarder (not to mention, he has one of the better recoveries in the game). I still miss with b-air more than I would like, but I think once this hits with a higher frequency, he'll get some more support. What is so strong about Dedede? Is his chain throw just THAT good, or does he have a lot more going for him? I find him a solid character, but (chain throw aside) can't really see where he would have an edge over some of the other characters that you've tentatively put in the high tier list.
The team obviously didn't like the way the metagame for Melee progressed. I think they saw things like Sheik landing a single throw and building up 80% of the roster to 100% without any effort, followed by a KO (remember, Sheik was supposed to not have much KO potential) that caused them to greatly rethink how they wanted Smash to be played. It's not that Brawl isn't a competitive game... it's that it's a game that's played differently from Melee. The de-emphasis of grabs (and, mostly, the ability to combo out of them) is a direct consequence of how easily the good characters could KO off grabs in Melee.
Similarly, I think it's a lot more difficult than you think to have a game that emphasizes combos and that isn't horribly broken. As soon as you let people combo at length, characters get broken (for evidence, look at ANY fighting game with a flexible combo engine... 0 to death or full bar combos are regular occurrences in these games. Examples include Guilty Gear, Alpha 3 (any character A-ism), CvS2 (Sakura and Bison A-groove), etc). Now I love combos as much as the next guy, and in Brawl they are possible under certain circumstances, but it's not what the game is largely about, and I don't think it's fair to say that this type of game is less competitive. Is spacing less or more important than combo ability? Is it not better to give all players, both offensive and defensive, more options at any time? I think Brawl does about a good a job of this as you can expect.
Also, as an experienced programmer and student of game making, I think you should reconsider saying things like "it wouldn't have been that hard to do [...]" until you've actually tried to do it yourself.
Even the seemingly simplest of tasks is probably many orders of magnitude tougher than most people realize, and "leaving in [ability to freely combo]" is certainly far from the easiest of tasks, especially considering they want this game to be balanced with 8 million people playing it for the next 7 years.My opinion on this may change in the coming year or so, but I currently believe Brawl has succeeded in what I think the team set out to do: create a balanced (as much as possible) fighting game that can be played in competitive circles, as well as by those who don't play games much, and be enjoyed by all. They wanted to keep the game as much like Smash as possible, while removing the aspects of Melee that caused the game to be played in a way they did not like.
Finally, I can't really defend the team's decision to include tripping. I would like to know their rationale for it. It's the only aspect of Brawl I don't like.
EDIT - Also, when you talk about characters in Melee you think are "perfectly balanced", again, you have to take into consideration that the strategies that made them balanced were only possible in the Melee engine. When you change the way the game works at a fundamental level, there is some collateral... "damage", if you want to call it that. They can't keep these 4 characters' playstyles exactly the same, because they relied on Melee timing/gravity/physics, Samus and Ganondorf especially. You can't transplant any character from Melee directly into Brawl and expect everything to work the same (except maybe Marth
). You might want to think of it in this theoretical way: in order to create a roster which had maybe 20 "perfectly balanced characters" (not necessarily the same ones as in Melee), instead of 6 or fewer like in Melee, they had to change the properties for all returning characters. Coming up with 39 unique movesets that all play differently, but are all able to compete against any other character, is a task of monumental proportions. One small factor for any of the characters, or one small factor in the game engine itself, can completely shatter your game. In these early stages of analyzing the game, I'm amazed at the success to which they pulled it off.EDIT 2 - Unfortunately, I agree with your Metaknight assessment. I don't know why, but I'm not a big fan of the character's playstyle, so I'm a bit sad that I'm going to be seeing a lot of him.
Also, I'm not exactly sure how well the community is receiving Sonic, but he has a lot going for him. B-air is a great KO move, and so is f-smash (even though it's somewhat hard to hit). His d-smash is an excellent move, all of his B moves have purpose, and he's an excellent edge-guarder (not to mention, he has one of the better recoveries in the game). I still miss with b-air more than I would like, but I think once this hits with a higher frequency, he'll get some more support. What is so strong about Dedede? Is his chain throw just THAT good, or does he have a lot more going for him? I find him a solid character, but (chain throw aside) can't really see where he would have an edge over some of the other characters that you've tentatively put in the high tier list.
kithkin
Smash Champion
DeDeDe's crouch is what makes him top tier.
Its just THAT good.
But on a serious note, I still think its too early to develope tiers, cause they WILL change once people discover more about the game, so right now I just want to play the game and figure it all out.
Main reason why I main Random, THE random.
Oh and is that the same code I already added steve? add me back.
Its just THAT good.
But on a serious note, I still think its too early to develope tiers, cause they WILL change once people discover more about the game, so right now I just want to play the game and figure it all out.
Main reason why I main Random, THE random.
Oh and is that the same code I already added steve? add me back.
Stevo
Smash Champion
@Kithkin
it might not be the same code you already added.
as I was playing on someone elses wii (cause I unlocked all the characters on that wii lol)
also, yes it is too early to have a good tier list, but its not too early to have a general list of what I think are the top contenders currently.
@Infil
I guess when I say they could have easily done such and such, im looking at it from a design perspective and not a programming perspective. I'm big into game disign (having designed many games myself). altho, as you somewhat pointed out, I do not have vast knowledge about what goes into the code etc.
I think the brawl characters are pretty balanced actually. except, I have a bad feeling that there are a few characters (such as the dreaded metaknight) that just seem to have that edge over others.
so far, the most fun ive had is playing online with Carl. I think I had the most fun there because we both are melee veterans and neither of us rolled around, spammed projectiles etc.
DeDeDe's chain grab IS that good. It totally locks down some characters. Also, he can edgeguard like metaknight (almost) and is heavy with a large up b to boot. DeDeDe against a wall = GG. DeDeDe against certain characters that he can infinite (and it is actually an infinit) = GG. I actually dont use DK just because I know that DeDeDe could kill him with a grab lol. I know that not everyone is gonna learn it, but once mastered, not even DI or anything can get you out. he can just grab all day until he wants to finish you with a forward throw.
Sonic seems pretty good, but hard to get his kill moves to hit, but like you said, if you can get his bair to hit more, you should be fine.
Ice climbers seem almost the same, minus wobble and wavedash. however, i am starting to believe that wavedash was an essential part of their game (especially grab game). I find it difficult to grab anyone with ice climbers, as most people watch for their grab. Icicles do like 2 damage now, so yeah..... XD. Makes me think I should take them off high and back down to mid.
Luigi's missfire doesnt even look like a missfire anymore lol. what makes me think luigi is high tier, is the fact that, due to how brawl works, his neutral kick can shut down lots of characters "combos". Whats even better about this for luigi, is his neutral is a kill move. Also, his up-b is a very strong attack, and if someone is tap-a ing you, just spam up b lol. On
low ceiling stages, luigi can be annoying to fight. Down-b also can beat campers.
EDIT: ROB might be high tier actually. He has good priority and power. His recovery is quite good as well.
EDIT 2: Here is my new and improved (I think) ranking list! (I guess I wont call it tier list, cause that brings in many emotions, and I also am only ranking the top characters)
Top contenders
Meta
Toon
Marth
Excellent contenders
DeDeDe
Shelda
pkm
Luigi
Ike
normal contenders
The Rest
it might not be the same code you already added.
as I was playing on someone elses wii (cause I unlocked all the characters on that wii lol)
also, yes it is too early to have a good tier list, but its not too early to have a general list of what I think are the top contenders currently.
@Infil
I guess when I say they could have easily done such and such, im looking at it from a design perspective and not a programming perspective. I'm big into game disign (having designed many games myself). altho, as you somewhat pointed out, I do not have vast knowledge about what goes into the code etc.
I think the brawl characters are pretty balanced actually. except, I have a bad feeling that there are a few characters (such as the dreaded metaknight) that just seem to have that edge over others.
so far, the most fun ive had is playing online with Carl. I think I had the most fun there because we both are melee veterans and neither of us rolled around, spammed projectiles etc.
DeDeDe's chain grab IS that good. It totally locks down some characters. Also, he can edgeguard like metaknight (almost) and is heavy with a large up b to boot. DeDeDe against a wall = GG. DeDeDe against certain characters that he can infinite (and it is actually an infinit) = GG. I actually dont use DK just because I know that DeDeDe could kill him with a grab lol. I know that not everyone is gonna learn it, but once mastered, not even DI or anything can get you out. he can just grab all day until he wants to finish you with a forward throw.
Sonic seems pretty good, but hard to get his kill moves to hit, but like you said, if you can get his bair to hit more, you should be fine.
Ice climbers seem almost the same, minus wobble and wavedash. however, i am starting to believe that wavedash was an essential part of their game (especially grab game). I find it difficult to grab anyone with ice climbers, as most people watch for their grab. Icicles do like 2 damage now, so yeah..... XD. Makes me think I should take them off high and back down to mid.
Luigi's missfire doesnt even look like a missfire anymore lol. what makes me think luigi is high tier, is the fact that, due to how brawl works, his neutral kick can shut down lots of characters "combos". Whats even better about this for luigi, is his neutral is a kill move. Also, his up-b is a very strong attack, and if someone is tap-a ing you, just spam up b lol. On
low ceiling stages, luigi can be annoying to fight. Down-b also can beat campers.
EDIT: ROB might be high tier actually. He has good priority and power. His recovery is quite good as well.
EDIT 2: Here is my new and improved (I think) ranking list! (I guess I wont call it tier list, cause that brings in many emotions, and I also am only ranking the top characters)
Top contenders
Meta
Toon
Marth
Excellent contenders
DeDeDe
Shelda
pkm
Luigi
Ike
normal contenders
The Rest
kithkin
Smash Champion
Why cant I think of who PKM is, Pokemon trainer?
I'm adding your new code (I did have your other one)
I personally found some characters can be metaknights undoing because he mostly just priority and shield pokes people.
I think Rob is good, he has some pretty situational attacks, but I think hes one of those characters you have to know how to use.
And just because I'm curious, what about Shelda makes her so good? I personally think sheiks a lot worse (and I hate her new needle controls cause I screw it up) I mean Zelda and Sheik are both good, but I think they both have good parts, but without the quick switching time you cant really bair them with zelda then switch while they recover.
The things you need it for seem to be out.
I'm adding your new code (I did have your other one)
I personally found some characters can be metaknights undoing because he mostly just priority and shield pokes people.
I think Rob is good, he has some pretty situational attacks, but I think hes one of those characters you have to know how to use.
And just because I'm curious, what about Shelda makes her so good? I personally think sheiks a lot worse (and I hate her new needle controls cause I screw it up) I mean Zelda and Sheik are both good, but I think they both have good parts, but without the quick switching time you cant really bair them with zelda then switch while they recover.
The things you need it for seem to be out.
mach5
Smash Journeyman
good speech infil. its agreeable that this game can be played for more people. even girls especially. melee didn't seem that popular with girls. but now i go on forums and stuff theres so many of them.
I'm not trying to knock you or anything, because it's good that you think about these things, but I just think it's a difficult thing to analyze/design games from a distance without actually implementing your designs. A lot of things look good on paper, and it's pretty easy to design a theoretically "perfect" game. Of course, almost none of these great ideas end up being implemented well, and if you read reviews for games often, you'll very frequently hear stuff like "this idea sounds good on paper, but it doesn't work in the game" and such.
It's easy to say "well, Brawl would be more fun if they just let you combo more off a throw", or whatnot... but it's really not that easy. From someone who's designed and programmed a complete game before, the process of designing without implementing (and also implementing without designing) can't really be compared to doing both. I'm not trying to flex muscle here or anything... there's still lots I don't know, of course.
I just think it's important to consider design and implementation together, since you cannot do one without the other, and when you take the two together, seemingly easy tasks become incredibly difficult.
Stevo
Smash Champion
whats your FC Brad? sorry i must have missplaced it.
Sheik is good cause she has a quick fastfall
she can go in and out of the air quickly. most her arials have little lag, grapple recovery
zelda is pretty good from what I hear, but I dont use her (dont like her kicks)
I based that placement mostly on sheik. most of what sheik lost, everyone lost.
sheiks gravity wasnt brawlified, and her forward tilt and up tilt are still very good
down tilt I have yet to find a real use for... now that crouching is out and combos are out.
pkm is pokemon trainer, i just call them all pkm. I only know how to use charizard, but the other 2 seem quite good.
pit is not in my top list because, well, his arials suck (in my opinion) his best strategy is to spam arrows till the opponant gets annoyed, then punish. all I do against pit users is sit there power shielding the arrows until they attack. (this doesnt work so well online due to lag tho)
Rob is good, but I dont know if hes good enough for high tier.
and Ike is up there either cause im biased or he actually is good. doesnt matter either way in my mind.
EDIT: I just want to point out one thing.
they have made TWO smash games already, they have some of the same people working on it, and they are backed by a huge company, with lots of time to develop and create the game. They even delayed the game at least 3 times. (as far as the public is concerned at least)
I still think there is no excuse for this game not to be perfect. This game does however have everything the casual gamer coudl dream of.
if they were making a brand new game with brand new concepts, I could see making mistakes, but they have 2 popular games under their belt already.
I admit I am very critical about games. and I will admit that, brawl was pobably designed to make money (like all games) so, they have succeeded. everyone who loves melee was already gonna buy it... so they gotta attract new gamers. and thats what they did
I have so many friends who hated melee now love brawl and play it all the time.
why? cause it was made for them. I would have bought brawl even if the only playable characters were Mario and Sonic.
I actually am starting to think that tripping was put in the game in order to make brawl unplayable in a tournament scene, without affecting the game overall.
I will inevitably play this game for less time then I anxiously awaited its release, and thats sad.
Sheik is good cause she has a quick fastfall
she can go in and out of the air quickly. most her arials have little lag, grapple recovery
zelda is pretty good from what I hear, but I dont use her (dont like her kicks)
I based that placement mostly on sheik. most of what sheik lost, everyone lost.
sheiks gravity wasnt brawlified, and her forward tilt and up tilt are still very good
down tilt I have yet to find a real use for... now that crouching is out and combos are out.
pkm is pokemon trainer, i just call them all pkm. I only know how to use charizard, but the other 2 seem quite good.
pit is not in my top list because, well, his arials suck (in my opinion) his best strategy is to spam arrows till the opponant gets annoyed, then punish. all I do against pit users is sit there power shielding the arrows until they attack. (this doesnt work so well online due to lag tho)
Rob is good, but I dont know if hes good enough for high tier.
and Ike is up there either cause im biased or he actually is good. doesnt matter either way in my mind.
EDIT: I just want to point out one thing.
they have made TWO smash games already, they have some of the same people working on it, and they are backed by a huge company, with lots of time to develop and create the game. They even delayed the game at least 3 times. (as far as the public is concerned at least)
I still think there is no excuse for this game not to be perfect. This game does however have everything the casual gamer coudl dream of.
if they were making a brand new game with brand new concepts, I could see making mistakes, but they have 2 popular games under their belt already.
I admit I am very critical about games. and I will admit that, brawl was pobably designed to make money (like all games) so, they have succeeded. everyone who loves melee was already gonna buy it... so they gotta attract new gamers. and thats what they did
I have so many friends who hated melee now love brawl and play it all the time.
why? cause it was made for them. I would have bought brawl even if the only playable characters were Mario and Sonic.
I actually am starting to think that tripping was put in the game in order to make brawl unplayable in a tournament scene, without affecting the game overall.
I will inevitably play this game for less time then I anxiously awaited its release, and thats sad.
JAPMAN
Smash Journeyman
Hoooly so much drama O_O
Stevo
Smash Champion
I could 4 stock Sakurai
on pokefloats
with kirby
holding a headless hammer
after getting a poinson mushroom
with handicap on
3v1
with a no-name brand controller
that isnt plugged in
while I was asleep
in a subway station
in northern europe
while eating a sandwich
and watching whos line is it anyway
while completing a rubix cube with my other hand
blindfolded
My Smash bros Haiku:
when I smash your face
you will be sent soaring high
you must recover!
on pokefloats
with kirby
holding a headless hammer
after getting a poinson mushroom
with handicap on
3v1
with a no-name brand controller
that isnt plugged in
while I was asleep
in a subway station
in northern europe
while eating a sandwich
and watching whos line is it anyway
while completing a rubix cube with my other hand
blindfolded
My Smash bros Haiku:
when I smash your face
you will be sent soaring high
you must recover!
lemonlau36
Smash Journeyman
Here's my thoughts. Since that's the popular trend here.
Brawl is... different. I have to give it a fair shot though, since I felt the exact same way after Melee. After about two months of Melee, I barely ever wanted to play it cause I found everything unnecessarily different from SSB64. That changed, and I still remain faithful that the metagame will evolve to something much greater. Only time will tell.
Also, not going to touch on this much, but WTF tripping??!?!??!
K. So after a week with this game, I haven't had many issues in adapting to a new style of play. Really, I haven't changed much from how I play Melee. I go into Training with a character, throw out a few moves, take note of their attributes, then apply them in a way I see fit. If I keep playing, it'll take me a long while to settle on a character. I tend to develop a unique style for characters; not for the reason of being unique, but for comfort. Unfortunately, sometimes it turns out that my character is not-so-fantastic compared to common play styles of other characters (read: Pikachu).
Such is the case for Brawl. I have a prediction that Luigi will end up being absolutely fantastic, but I just don't find him comfortable to play in a manner that can make good use of his moveset.
Rather than talk more about Brawl, I'd rather play some people. Soon. And not online. But here are my personal character "rankings" if you will.
Awesome
- Meta Knight (Plenty of KO potential IMO)
- Lucas (I think I have a bit of bias here, but oh well)
- Wario
- Wolf (I feel that he can pressure well)
- Pit (His b-air is a sick kill move, and I like using his mirror shield for melee attacks when approaching)
- Luigi
Good
- Falco
- Ike (just deadly...)
- Toon Link (he's got spam. And spam. And spam. But I find him average overall)
- Ness
- Squirtle (I like his side+B attributes, and his usmash is killer. Not to mention very quick)
Alright
- Ivysaur (wtf recovery)
- Charizard
- Fox
- Zelda
- Sheik
- Snake (I think Snake will end up being a lot better than I currently think of him)
- Pikachu
- Lucario
- DeDeDe (Sure he has a chain grab, but I've yet to see that in action against me. Otherwise, I put him here)
Lacking
- Sonic (I don't see the KO potential. I see recovery, I see hit+run, but not much else).
- R.O.B. (Laggy aerials. I don't like).
- Ganondorf
- ZSS (I don't like her KO options)
Lame
- Peach (I like her attacks. I really do. But her recovery?? Her 2nd jump barely goes anywhere. You get hit out either that or floating, and you're absolutely screwed)
- Falcon (Exactly like Steve said... but I know he'll be better)
All other characters I have extremely limited experience with. Which is pretty much anyone that's NOT new to SSB. I'll be experimenting more with them this week.
Brawl is... different. I have to give it a fair shot though, since I felt the exact same way after Melee. After about two months of Melee, I barely ever wanted to play it cause I found everything unnecessarily different from SSB64. That changed, and I still remain faithful that the metagame will evolve to something much greater. Only time will tell.
Also, not going to touch on this much, but WTF tripping??!?!??!
K. So after a week with this game, I haven't had many issues in adapting to a new style of play. Really, I haven't changed much from how I play Melee. I go into Training with a character, throw out a few moves, take note of their attributes, then apply them in a way I see fit. If I keep playing, it'll take me a long while to settle on a character. I tend to develop a unique style for characters; not for the reason of being unique, but for comfort. Unfortunately, sometimes it turns out that my character is not-so-fantastic compared to common play styles of other characters (read: Pikachu).
Such is the case for Brawl. I have a prediction that Luigi will end up being absolutely fantastic, but I just don't find him comfortable to play in a manner that can make good use of his moveset.
Rather than talk more about Brawl, I'd rather play some people. Soon. And not online. But here are my personal character "rankings" if you will.
Awesome
- Meta Knight (Plenty of KO potential IMO)
- Lucas (I think I have a bit of bias here, but oh well)
- Wario
- Wolf (I feel that he can pressure well)
- Pit (His b-air is a sick kill move, and I like using his mirror shield for melee attacks when approaching)
- Luigi
Good
- Falco
- Ike (just deadly...)
- Toon Link (he's got spam. And spam. And spam. But I find him average overall)
- Ness
- Squirtle (I like his side+B attributes, and his usmash is killer. Not to mention very quick)
Alright
- Ivysaur (wtf recovery)
- Charizard
- Fox
- Zelda
- Sheik
- Snake (I think Snake will end up being a lot better than I currently think of him)
- Pikachu
- Lucario
- DeDeDe (Sure he has a chain grab, but I've yet to see that in action against me. Otherwise, I put him here)
Lacking
- Sonic (I don't see the KO potential. I see recovery, I see hit+run, but not much else).
- R.O.B. (Laggy aerials. I don't like).
- Ganondorf
- ZSS (I don't like her KO options)
Lame
- Peach (I like her attacks. I really do. But her recovery?? Her 2nd jump barely goes anywhere. You get hit out either that or floating, and you're absolutely screwed)
- Falcon (Exactly like Steve said... but I know he'll be better)
All other characters I have extremely limited experience with. Which is pretty much anyone that's NOT new to SSB. I'll be experimenting more with them this week.
Don't you think perfection is different for a ton of different people? How is it a fair measure? You may not think it's perfect, but there are likely other gamers that think it is. A universally perfect game is, of course, an impossibility, and no game maker ever shoots for "perfection", because it's unattainable.
I don't know their rationale behind tripping, but I think that's just being a bit overly paranoid, don't you?
Mainly because tripping is an annoyance at a casual and competitive level, and it won't stop this game from being played at either level. It's not meant to "single out" competitive players.If you play this game for less than, say, 1.5 years, then I think that's a testament that Smash in general, as a concept, might be getting a little tired. The only true annoyance I see here is tripping, which we'll just have to get used to. I don't feel you (the general you, not Stevo in particular) can call lack of so-called "advanced techniques" from Melee an annoyance that will prevent this game from developing a true hardcore tournament scene. There's no point in bemoaning L-canceling (this game has a way to execute aerials with less landing lag, but it involves timing and height of your jump, not pressing an extra button when you land) and wavedashing (an abuse of physics which was not intended to be as powerful as it ended up being). Melee players ended up using those to make certain characters more powerful, but they're not the be-all and end-all of how Smash is meant to be played.
I just find it silly when I hear that people are upset that these techniques are removed, as if it affects the competitiveness of Smash. That's naiveté at its highest level, in my opinion.
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
I don't believe anyone has fair say that the advanced techniques that were removed haven't been replaced by things equally awe-inspiring. In fact, I believe that not only could Brawl potentially be as deep as Melee but also just as (if not more) difficult. Ricky, you and I are the only two people I know who I haven't heard jumping to conclusions about this new game as though they really have some idea of how to play it. Ya gots to let these things mature, yo!
EDIT: Also, Nana squall desync, ftw.
*runs away to crack more panels*
EDIT: Also, Nana squall desync, ftw.
*runs away to crack more panels*
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
Stevo
Smash Champion
I think I sound more annoyed in my posts then I really am.
We should do a tourney sometime so we can all chill and brawl.
and thanks Randall, I liked my post as well lol.
We should do a tourney sometime so we can all chill and brawl.
and thanks Randall, I liked my post as well lol.
kithkin
Smash Champion
2320-5866-2976 Don't worry about it just add me this time =D
And quoted for great justice.
Brawl sold over 120 a minute over the last week. Declared the fastest selling game ever.
And sheik has a tether recovery? that makes more options, me like. I'll have to try her out more.
oh and zelda too, just for kicks XD
kithkin
Smash Champion
oh and guys.
Just saying, I love brawl, I just figure its not worth making huge posts like you are (FOR ME TO MAKE THEM, yours are good) simply because I will sound like an idiot or make an invalid point anyways,
So just know that I really do agree/disagree and have lots to say, but I do prefer my spammish messages because then its less to deal with if I made a mistake.
Also, Ricky, FFing/height of aerials affects the lag time on the ground? I think so, I notice it all the time with pit.
Just saying, I love brawl, I just figure its not worth making huge posts like you are (FOR ME TO MAKE THEM, yours are good) simply because I will sound like an idiot or make an invalid point anyways,
So just know that I really do agree/disagree and have lots to say, but I do prefer my spammish messages because then its less to deal with if I made a mistake.
Also, Ricky, FFing/height of aerials affects the lag time on the ground? I think so, I notice it all the time with pit.
Yeah kith, check out my Ganondorf expose on Youtube. His d-air can effectively land with 0 lag if you let the entire move execute before you land... which means you have to do the move as soon as you short hop, and not fast-fall. This strategy is important for all characters.
And Randall understands. Pretending to know how a game will be played after 1 week with it is ridiculous. But even at its current state, playing Brawl is a great deal of fun. Getting Melee with a shinier coat of paint is almost like the worst case, for me. I grew tired of Melee and wanted to learn new playstyles. We already know who are the best Melee players, anyway.
Also, Stevo... one thing to consider is that a lot of people are getting into Brawl because they feel like they have a chance to compete. I know some of my close gaming friends (who play 3rd strike with me) are trying to get into Brawl now, because they feel like they have equal footing. My 6 years of Melee practice, my knowledge of wavedashing and L-canceling... it doesn't mean I have this insurmountable edge over them. We're all learning a brand new game from scratch, and when you all get in on the ground floor, it's easier and more fun to learn a game. If this game allowed perfect transition of my Melee skills, I guarantee you many of my friends would never consider learning it. This does not really apply to the casuals, of course, but this example shows exactly why new engines and new techniques are important for the longevity of your game.
And Randall understands. Pretending to know how a game will be played after 1 week with it is ridiculous. But even at its current state, playing Brawl is a great deal of fun. Getting Melee with a shinier coat of paint is almost like the worst case, for me. I grew tired of Melee and wanted to learn new playstyles. We already know who are the best Melee players, anyway.
Also, Stevo... one thing to consider is that a lot of people are getting into Brawl because they feel like they have a chance to compete. I know some of my close gaming friends (who play 3rd strike with me) are trying to get into Brawl now, because they feel like they have equal footing. My 6 years of Melee practice, my knowledge of wavedashing and L-canceling... it doesn't mean I have this insurmountable edge over them. We're all learning a brand new game from scratch, and when you all get in on the ground floor, it's easier and more fun to learn a game. If this game allowed perfect transition of my Melee skills, I guarantee you many of my friends would never consider learning it. This does not really apply to the casuals, of course, but this example shows exactly why new engines and new techniques are important for the longevity of your game.
kithkin
Smash Champion
Yeah, I agree, it repones the community a TON.
So yeah, i wasnt just seeing things.
Ballin bowser it too good BTW
So yeah, i wasnt just seeing things.
Ballin bowser it too good BTW
I think Ike is placed really high right now because of his raw power, but as people get used to his moves (or the person playing him style), he'll become easier and easier to punish.
I'm really enjoying Toon Link right now. He's everything I've ever wanted a Link character to be. Nimble, Powerful sword attacks, wall jumps (for style), and absolutely awesome spam. The boomerang no longer knocks around my bombs, so I can throw them safely right as my boomerang is coming back increasing the rate of spam! I'm sure you're all happy about that... the bombs also don't knock eachother around, although that has little impact on my style. I'm just glad they all have good knockback and the boomerang can be angled off surfaces again!
I've also been trying out alot of Olimar. He seems to fit my "let them come to you" playstyle perfectly. All his smashes involve sending the pikmen out, so they're completely disjointed. He has a long throw range to shield-grab with, and if you keep your distance, his spam is constant and annoying.
I try not to take to the air too often with him, since his recovery is so poor and easily gimped, but I seem to be overcoming that problem.
I'm not sure about his future though... I'm confident that people will only get better at gimping him. I forsee alot of relatively low-percentage deaths for poor Olimar.
I'm having alot of fun with it, and like Ricky said, the different nature of this game allows other people that might of missed the Melee bandwagon (such as my roommate, Troy) to hop on at the ground floor and Smash it up.
If more people get involved, it can only mean good things for the community!
As for tripping... I have no bloody clue...
It was cute and funny the first few times, but I've already tripped head-first into Ike's F-Smash. It's only a matter of time before that scenario unfolds during a finals match.
I'm really enjoying Toon Link right now. He's everything I've ever wanted a Link character to be. Nimble, Powerful sword attacks, wall jumps (for style), and absolutely awesome spam. The boomerang no longer knocks around my bombs, so I can throw them safely right as my boomerang is coming back increasing the rate of spam! I'm sure you're all happy about that... the bombs also don't knock eachother around, although that has little impact on my style. I'm just glad they all have good knockback and the boomerang can be angled off surfaces again!
I've also been trying out alot of Olimar. He seems to fit my "let them come to you" playstyle perfectly. All his smashes involve sending the pikmen out, so they're completely disjointed. He has a long throw range to shield-grab with, and if you keep your distance, his spam is constant and annoying.
I try not to take to the air too often with him, since his recovery is so poor and easily gimped, but I seem to be overcoming that problem.
I'm not sure about his future though... I'm confident that people will only get better at gimping him. I forsee alot of relatively low-percentage deaths for poor Olimar.
I'm having alot of fun with it, and like Ricky said, the different nature of this game allows other people that might of missed the Melee bandwagon (such as my roommate, Troy) to hop on at the ground floor and Smash it up.
If more people get involved, it can only mean good things for the community!
As for tripping... I have no bloody clue...
It was cute and funny the first few times, but I've already tripped head-first into Ike's F-Smash. It's only a matter of time before that scenario unfolds during a finals match.
kithkin
Smash Champion
Fix'd
But yeah, the Ike thing I agree with a lot. But I will admit, his side B does make him really good at approaching, which a lot of slow characters lack.
Oh, and Who was LUN? or whichever it was who was with you? I'm just curious.
Eh, I don't really see what's so great about Ike's side B entry. Once you see it, you all know it's going to stop short of you and he's going to do a neutral A combo. It's easy to predict and easy to punish, in my opinion. He can use it to get around the stage a bit, I guess, but I don't imagine it'll catch too many players by surprise.
I think Olimar has options off being gimped... if he has a purple pikmin, he can throw that at the guy (and now that we know exactly how his whistle works, good Olimar players will make sure they have one ready). At the very least, he's not completely and totally defenseless... but he will have a hard time when he's off the stage. This is probably for the best, though, since he's such a beast when he's on the stage.
Not sure how I feel about Toon being so good. No amount of air-dodging can overcome his fast aerial combos? I haven't played with him enough. At least he's a super cool character, so it won't be too bad seeing him in matches.
Also, it looks like Dedede can't chain throw shorter, smaller characters? I couldn't get it to work too well against Kirby and stuff, and I think my timing was pretty good. I have no trouble on bigger bodied characters. If all Dedede has is chain throw, this might make Metaknight and such pretty strong counters against him. He's still a cool character, though... I'm finding his u-tilt to be ridiculously good, and his n-air is also good for a heavyweight. His down B jet hammer thing works surprisingly well against edge-guarders, since you can charge it, walk around (and TURN around), and it comes out basically instantly.
I think Olimar has options off being gimped... if he has a purple pikmin, he can throw that at the guy (and now that we know exactly how his whistle works, good Olimar players will make sure they have one ready). At the very least, he's not completely and totally defenseless... but he will have a hard time when he's off the stage. This is probably for the best, though, since he's such a beast when he's on the stage.
Not sure how I feel about Toon being so good. No amount of air-dodging can overcome his fast aerial combos? I haven't played with him enough. At least he's a super cool character, so it won't be too bad seeing him in matches.
Also, it looks like Dedede can't chain throw shorter, smaller characters? I couldn't get it to work too well against Kirby and stuff, and I think my timing was pretty good. I have no trouble on bigger bodied characters. If all Dedede has is chain throw, this might make Metaknight and such pretty strong counters against him. He's still a cool character, though... I'm finding his u-tilt to be ridiculously good, and his n-air is also good for a heavyweight. His down B jet hammer thing works surprisingly well against edge-guarders, since you can charge it, walk around (and TURN around), and it comes out basically instantly.
Stevo
Smash Champion
Ike forward-b to up smash is too good
nobody sees it coming.... and if they roll.... it still hits them lolololol
also, Ike up tilt is too good.
if they wanted to take out chain throwing from smash, they did a bad job of it.
its actually pretty easy, its just that almost nobody can do it. But those who can, its easy as hell.
seriously, pick ice climbers, and grab someone and down throw them.... its the easiest thing ever to chain throw. It barely seems to get affected by percent as well.... so I think it works till like 70% or something (something rediculous like sheiks chain grab in melee, WITHOUT THE DIFFICULTY! if you can even call that difficult)
DEDEDE can infinit chain grab Samus, DK, Mario, Luigi, and BOwser I believe. NO MOVING REQUIRED, ONE BUTTON WIN!
He can normal chain grab a lot of other characters.
and he can infinit chain grab agaisnt a wall anyone that doesnt fall down from his throw.
Rediculous.
whats-his-name-pokemon-that-looks-like-a-jackal-guy can chain grab at low percents with his forward-b.
nobody sees it coming.... and if they roll.... it still hits them lolololol
also, Ike up tilt is too good.
if they wanted to take out chain throwing from smash, they did a bad job of it.
its actually pretty easy, its just that almost nobody can do it. But those who can, its easy as hell.
seriously, pick ice climbers, and grab someone and down throw them.... its the easiest thing ever to chain throw. It barely seems to get affected by percent as well.... so I think it works till like 70% or something (something rediculous like sheiks chain grab in melee, WITHOUT THE DIFFICULTY! if you can even call that difficult)
DEDEDE can infinit chain grab Samus, DK, Mario, Luigi, and BOwser I believe. NO MOVING REQUIRED, ONE BUTTON WIN!
He can normal chain grab a lot of other characters.
and he can infinit chain grab agaisnt a wall anyone that doesnt fall down from his throw.
Rediculous.
whats-his-name-pokemon-that-looks-like-a-jackal-guy can chain grab at low percents with his forward-b.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
I really should type something intelligent, because I have alot to say about the game, but I'll check my maturity for another day.
My list:
Characters aren't ordered within tiers:
Top tier(Most of them have swords...INTERESTING....)
Metaknight
Ike
Pit
Toon link
Marth
Game and Watch
Upper tier
Falco
Snake(Snake could be top, I havent seen the alleged **** with him yet)
Dedede (will probably end up lower once I get over the chaingrab)
Olimar
High tier
Fox
Zero suit samus
Wolf
Lucario
Mid tier
Wario
Lucas
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Not bad/Not great tier
Diddy Kong
Sonic
Bowser
Mario
ROB
Peach
Worthless tier
Everyone else
My list:
Characters aren't ordered within tiers:
Top tier(Most of them have swords...INTERESTING....)
Metaknight
Ike
Pit
Toon link
Marth
Game and Watch
Upper tier
Falco
Snake(Snake could be top, I havent seen the alleged **** with him yet)
Dedede (will probably end up lower once I get over the chaingrab)
Olimar
High tier
Fox
Zero suit samus
Wolf
Lucario
Mid tier
Wario
Lucas
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Not bad/Not great tier
Diddy Kong
Sonic
Bowser
Mario
ROB
Peach
Worthless tier
Everyone else
Interesting how FalseFalco's list doesn't have Zelda or Ness anywhere, but puts G&W in the highest possible tier.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it's exciting to me to see that there are so many different opinions on which characters are good and which are bad. That's the sign of a well-made game! Of course, in 12 months we'll have a better idea of who actually remains in the highest tier, but the initial confusion is actually a good thing. Many people say ZSS sucks, but she's a good character according to me (and apparently FalseFalco as well).
Anyway, Stevo, chain grabbing is basically impossible to eliminate, I think. The one-button chain grab seems a bit too much, but if you want to eliminate chain grabs you basically have to make all throws useless and/or KO moves (like SSB64). Any combo ability off a throw means there's possibility for extending your combo with another throw instead of another attack, and it's a fact that some characters are designed to have a larger grab range than others (understandably).
I do hope there are ways out of Dedede's chain grab, though, but it seems like he's a character which could be counterpicked, and this might actually just promote people learning more characters. Hopefully we can figure out how to not make it a one-button win for him against certain people, though.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it's exciting to me to see that there are so many different opinions on which characters are good and which are bad. That's the sign of a well-made game! Of course, in 12 months we'll have a better idea of who actually remains in the highest tier, but the initial confusion is actually a good thing. Many people say ZSS sucks, but she's a good character according to me (and apparently FalseFalco as well).
Anyway, Stevo, chain grabbing is basically impossible to eliminate, I think. The one-button chain grab seems a bit too much, but if you want to eliminate chain grabs you basically have to make all throws useless and/or KO moves (like SSB64). Any combo ability off a throw means there's possibility for extending your combo with another throw instead of another attack, and it's a fact that some characters are designed to have a larger grab range than others (understandably).
I do hope there are ways out of Dedede's chain grab, though, but it seems like he's a character which could be counterpicked, and this might actually just promote people learning more characters. Hopefully we can figure out how to not make it a one-button win for him against certain people, though.
Stevo
Smash Champion
First things first, above and beyond everything I say about brawl, Im looking at the cup is half empty side of things, and I realise this. I think brawl is a good game and I will have lots of fun playing it, even competetively. However, it seems it will not "replace" melee, as I had initially thought.
To make throws usable for combos without letting them chain is just a matter of making the stun time (where the opponant cant move) greater. if you throw someone but they can jump away in .1 seconds... doesnt help. If they get thrown too far to grab, but are stunned enough for you to jump and attack, the throw is both useful AND not broken with chain grabbing.
oh course you cant just say "they should have made it so you can combo off throws!"
but had they decided this early in the design process, they could have balanced the game around it.
a throw should
1 - kill
2 - combo
3 - damage
4 - be used simply as a counter to shielding (Ike would be in trouble without a grab, simply because shielding his attacks leaves him wide open)
5 - Harass (such as, if a character had the best grab in the game and could easily grab anyone without getting punished very easily, it could deal only 1 damage, but if you could do enough, could add up. Or lead to.........
MINDGAMES !!!
mindgames isnt really a category in my mind, cause it should be mixed in with the above.
I think most throws in brawl end up in category 4. (mostly)
which is OK i guess...... but when we are used to them doing 1 and 2 (and 3 with chain throws)
its hard to have them not be able to do that.
maybe Im just ignorant, but I seriously dont see it being that difficult. Which leads me to believe they had no intent on throws being anything more then something to get past shields (and counters I guess)
EDIT: oh and I take back what I said about falcon, hes probably not that bad.
To make throws usable for combos without letting them chain is just a matter of making the stun time (where the opponant cant move) greater. if you throw someone but they can jump away in .1 seconds... doesnt help. If they get thrown too far to grab, but are stunned enough for you to jump and attack, the throw is both useful AND not broken with chain grabbing.
oh course you cant just say "they should have made it so you can combo off throws!"
but had they decided this early in the design process, they could have balanced the game around it.
a throw should
1 - kill
2 - combo
3 - damage
4 - be used simply as a counter to shielding (Ike would be in trouble without a grab, simply because shielding his attacks leaves him wide open)
5 - Harass (such as, if a character had the best grab in the game and could easily grab anyone without getting punished very easily, it could deal only 1 damage, but if you could do enough, could add up. Or lead to.........
MINDGAMES !!!
mindgames isnt really a category in my mind, cause it should be mixed in with the above.
I think most throws in brawl end up in category 4. (mostly)
which is OK i guess...... but when we are used to them doing 1 and 2 (and 3 with chain throws)
its hard to have them not be able to do that.
maybe Im just ignorant, but I seriously dont see it being that difficult. Which leads me to believe they had no intent on throws being anything more then something to get past shields (and counters I guess)
EDIT: oh and I take back what I said about falcon, hes probably not that bad.
Fox Machine
Smash Journeyman
It's always nice to see intelligent discussion. Why you guys picked the Calgary thread to do it in is beyond me. Is Brad on vacation?
It's interesting to see what others think of the tiers, cause right now I think individual playstyles really affect what you think of them. It's no surprise that Chad would think Toon Link is top tier, with that spam-happy Link of his in Melee. Carl puts Falco ahead of the other spacies. Personal preference? I dunno, you tell me Carl. Also while you're at it, could you explain why you put G&W as top and Diddy in the same tier as Bowser? Sid, I think you forgot to include Marth in your list.
I'll probably be borrowing my buddy's Wii over the weekend. Hopefully I can wi-fi it up with some of you guys. (I just need to find a wi-fi access point.)
@Unreal - Welcome! Yes, most of the Calgary smashers know of Kevin/Koda. If you want to improve your game, my advice would be to get together and play with the fellow smashers in your area. Sure you can participate in online tournaments, but nothing really beats playing with someone in person in terms of the valuable experience you gain and how much fun it can be.
It's interesting to see what others think of the tiers, cause right now I think individual playstyles really affect what you think of them. It's no surprise that Chad would think Toon Link is top tier, with that spam-happy Link of his in Melee. Carl puts Falco ahead of the other spacies. Personal preference? I dunno, you tell me Carl. Also while you're at it, could you explain why you put G&W as top and Diddy in the same tier as Bowser? Sid, I think you forgot to include Marth in your list.
I'll probably be borrowing my buddy's Wii over the weekend. Hopefully I can wi-fi it up with some of you guys. (I just need to find a wi-fi access point.)
@Unreal - Welcome! Yes, most of the Calgary smashers know of Kevin/Koda. If you want to improve your game, my advice would be to get together and play with the fellow smashers in your area. Sure you can participate in online tournaments, but nothing really beats playing with someone in person in terms of the valuable experience you gain and how much fun it can be.