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Pretty in pink or true in blue, Krystal for Sm4sh!

ArcaneKitsune

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Question arose earlier:

Who's more important to the Star Fox canon, Falco or Wolf? Or are they both of equal necessity?
That's a very good question. Falco & Wolf are both the same in terms of importance, however there are others that think Falco is more important then Wolf and vice versa. An example this disagreement can be seen right now between Cliff Jumper & TheDarkNightNoivern as indicated in their posts before mine.

Falco. Wolf had no role in StarFox or StarFox Adventures, and Falco's basically Fox's second in command.
I'd probably say Wolf, Falco is really just a more helpful slippy, he doesn't really add anything except for him being part of the Star Fox Team
Falco & Wolf both are of equal importance in StarFox canon and they both have evidence to support this. Lets start with Wolf O'Donnell shall we? Wolf did have important role in StarFox canon besides challenging Fox's team to dog fight every now and then. He's the anti hero (He's considered the main villain of StarFox by some, but I think we can all agree that Andross takes that position hands down.) of the StarFox world now because of StarFox: Assault. Wolf's team helped the StarFox team 3 times in the game. The first assist by Wolf was unintentional because of his new teammate Panther being flirty with Krystal after the fight at Sargasso Space Zone which lead to the StarFox team finding out where Pigma Dengar went with the Memory Core. The 2nd time was at the Orbital Gate where the StarFox team had to reluctently revcieve help from Wolf's team to defend the Gate from Aparoid missiles. The third and final time Wolf & his team came to assist was when the StarFox team entered the core of the Aparoid Homeworld. Before Fox's team could reach the Queen a strong group of Aparoids attack StarFox, but Wolf's team intervenes and distracts them for StarFox team so they could reach the Queen's lair. Plus without Wolf we wouldn't have any his memorable quotes from SF 64 like my favorite quote of all time: "Can't let you do that StarFox."

Now with Falco Lombardi we can clearly see that he's Fox's right hand man and 2nd in command of the StarFox team. Falco's piloting skills are seen as the best in the StarFox world with Fox coming in at 2nd best. His importantance in StarFox canon comes from being Fox's primary wingmen in most of the games and his best friend as seen in some of the endings of Command. His most notable act of being in useful can be seen during the final Boss fight of Adventures where Falco pretty much saves Fox's fury a$# from being literally almost killed by Andross. Also in Assault Falco assisted Fox by allowing Fox to ride the wing of his Arwing in order to stop General Pepper who was assimilated by an Aparoid during the defense of Corneria mission.

As we can see both Falco Lombardi & Wolf O'Donnell are both of equal importance to StarFox canon. This just my opinion on the matter as I think they are both of equal importance to the StarFox series. Feel free to agree or disagree because as I said before this is just my opinion.
 
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Wintropy

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I don't think they were setting up for an argument. Both expressed their opinions with due civility.
 

ArcaneKitsune

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I don't think they were setting up for an argument. Both expressed their opinions with due civility.
I never indicated that they were starting or setting up for an argument, and if I did it wasn't meant to be taken seriously anyway.
 

Wintropy

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I never indicated that they were starting or setting up for an argument, and if I did it wasn't meant to be taken seriously anyway.
Stop right there both of you before you guys cause an unnecessary argument on this thread!!!
It's cool. Both have good points. :3
 

ArcaneKitsune

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Well, that certainly was awkward.

For the record, I didn't see Noivern's post at all.
Well that certainly changes things a lot Lol. Since the "Stop" part in my big post is causing a little controversy I removed it. My big post looks better with out it anyway.
 
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Strider_Bond00J

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So what changes would you like to see made to the OP? Supporters list, moveset section and the possibility of a Star Fox X Smash Bros DLC Pack?
 

jahkzheng

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Agreed. To be honest, the FE roster should have been better off with 3 at the moment there which would have been Marth, Ike and Robin and there you have it. That other slot should have been for someone else because having Lucina to be the clone of Marth with all the moves there including the Final Smash, that was a bit ******** in Sakurai's part. As for Starfox, as I said before, that was no excuse for him to remove Wolf from the roster and give some of Wolf's moves for Fox's customs and his grey palette swap was lame. Wolf has to come back for DLC and to hopefully include Krystal(want the most of all).
I likewise agree. Although, Lucina could've been made unique and I wouldn't have minded her as a fourth rep. Her fate as a clone, alt, or nothing was fairly set however since she would not have been on the roster upon release if she'd required full character development. What I know of her character tells me that another FE rep would probably have more potential uniqueness than her though. Regardless of FE's reps though, I'm still annoyed they cut one of the Star Fox characters. Basically comes back to those relevancy points again.

And I know that clones don't take slots and all that, but when you see them on the CSS and you think about how small the dev team will be willing to make the character portraits when the supposed DLC starts to pile up, you wonder how many characters can we really expect. Yes, yes, the workload of making characters is a much much more significant factor when considering what we can expect, but it's still hard not to look at the character select screen and think, "yeah, there's room for five or more characters in there", heh. And I kind of don't like the idea of hiding DLC characters in a expandable slot with a drop down menu or a second page if the CSS gets crowded... at least in terms of presentation. If that must happen though, I don't mind it being something to manage the limited screen size of the 3DS or if they just push the clones in there since they're already out of place where they are on the CSS.

That's a very good question. Falco & Wolf are both the same in terms of importance, however there are others that think Falco is more important then Wolf and vice versa. An example this disagreement can be seen right now between Cliff Jumper & TheDarkNightNoivern as indicated in their posts before mine.


Falco & Wolf both are of equal importance in StarFox canon and they both have evidence to support this. Lets start with Wolf O'Donnell shall we? Wolf did have important role in StarFox canon besides challenging Fox's team to dog fight every now and then. He's the anti hero (He's considered the main villain of StarFox by some, but I think we can all agree that Andross takes that position hands down.) of the StarFox world now because of StarFox: Assault. Wolf's team helped the StarFox team 3 times in the game. The first assist by Wolf was unintentional because of his new teammate Panther being flirty with Krystal after the fight at Sargasso Space Zone which lead to the StarFox team finding out where Pigma Dengar went with the Memory Core. The 2nd time was at the Orbital Gate where the StarFox team had to reluctently revcieve help from Wolf's team to defend the Gate from Aparoid missiles. The third and final time Wolf & his team came to assist was when the StarFox team entered the core of the Aparoid Homeworld. Before Fox's team could reach the Queen a strong group of Aparoids attack StarFox, but Wolf's team intervenes and distracts them for StarFox team so they could reach the Queen's lair. Plus without Wolf we wouldn't have any his memorable quotes from SF 64 like my favorite quote of all time: "Can't let you do that StarFox."

Now with Falco Lombardi we can clearly see that he's Fox's right hand man and 2nd in command of the StarFox team. Falco's piloting skills are seen as the best in the StarFox world with Fox coming in at 2nd best. His importantance in StarFox canon comes from being Fox's primary wingmen in most of the games and his best friend as seen in some of the endings of Command. His most notable act of being in useful can be seen during the final Boss fight of Adventures where Falco pretty much saves Fox's fury a$# from being literally almost killed by Andross. Also in Assault Falco assisted Fox by allowing Fox to ride the wing of his Arwing in order to stop General Pepper who was assimilated by an Aparoid during the defense of Corneria mission.

As we can see both Falco Lombardi & Wolf O'Donnell are both of equal importance to StarFox canon. This just my opinion on the matter as I think they are both of equal importance to the StarFox series. Feel free to agree or disagree because as I said before this is just my opinion.
Exactly. They're of equal importance. One is like the anti-Fox and the primary rival and adversary. The other is the wingman, the right hand man.. a friend and friendly rival that pushes Fox to be better.

That's the great thing about Star Fox is that each character fulfills a well known trope that makes any adventure fun and interesting. The primary constellation of characters that surround our hero Fox would naturally include his friend and wingman, his rival and antithesis, and his love interest. Arguably his mentor is just as important, and Slippy plays the role of the comic relief of course, but with his own special niche of usefulness. You could probably look at other popular stories and find similar characters.

I will say though that I hope and believe that Krystal can grow and be so much more than just this trope to Fox's hero. I don't have a ton of faith the new Star Fox will do anything for us in that regard. Command failed in this effort somewhat since it built her character off the one-dimension it granted her to begin with. A character shouldn't change based on just one aspect of themselves if they want to be interesting. I'd have liked it if something more interesting and less melodramatic or predictable could've grown from the adversity that Krystal faced in Command, but oh well. The story there was part of the weakness of her character development. But I don't think too much on that game, and I don't claim to have a great amount of character development written somewhere that I think would be better.

Well that certainly changes things a lot Lol. Since the "Stop" part in my big post is causing a little controversy I removed it. My big post looks better with out it anyway.
I didn't see it until after the edit. And I agree with it so I liked it, heh.
 
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Delzethin

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And I know that clones don't take slots and all that, but when you see them on the CSS and you think about how small the dev team will be willing to make the character portraits when the supposed DLC starts to pile up, you wonder how many characters can we really expect. Yes, yes, the workload of making characters is a much much more significant factor when considering what we can expect, but it's still hard not to look at the character select screen and think, "yeah, there's room for five or more characters in there", heh. And I kind of don't like the idea of hiding DLC characters in a expandable slot with a drop down menu or a second page if the CSS gets crowded... at least in terms of presentation. If that must happen though, I don't mind it being something to manage the limited screen size of the 3DS or if they just push the clones in there since they're already out of place where they are on the CSS.
I don't think there'd be a problem, to be honest. You could stretch the Wii U CSS to five rows if needed and still viably be able to see everything you'd need to see. The 3DS version would be able to use a pop up box for DLC characters since every person has their own CSS. Logistics aside, I doubt they'd let something like that limit how many characters they might or might not want to add. Other factors would be more important.
 

jahkzheng

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I don't think there'd be a problem, to be honest. You could stretch the Wii U CSS to five rows if needed and still viably be able to see everything you'd need to see. The 3DS version would be able to use a pop up box for DLC characters since every person has their own CSS. Logistics aside, I doubt they'd let something like that limit how many characters they might or might not want to add. Other factors would be more important.
Certainly, that's all true. There really is no limitation... within reason. Like I said in the post you quoted, I know that the true limitations lie within the sheer amount of work required. But with so little to go on right now, one can't help but look at the CSS and perhaps draw false conclusions. All I can say is that when I look at the CSS, I just hope that they get creative with it because if they chose not to resize all the portraits... then there's limited space and it could get ugly at the very least. Assuming they add enough characters for that to be an issue to begin with. I sure hope they do, heh.
 
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Wolfheart07

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Certainly, that's all true. There really is no limitation... within reason. Like I said in the post you quoted, I know that the true limitations lie within the sheer amount of work required. But with so little to go on right now, one can't help but look at the CSS and perhaps draw false conclusions. All I can say is that when I look at the CSS, I just hope that they get creative with it because if they chose not to resize all the portraits... then there's limited space and it could get ugly at the very least. Assuming they add enough characters for that to be an issue to begin with. I sure hope they do, heh.
Which is why looking at the rosters for both versions of the game, if they really want to take that extra mile, after Mewtwo, if we get just DLC characters, then at least 3 or 4 more would do the trick to fill out the roster and make it even. However, when that happens then we will expect for new trophies on those characters in both their Classic and All Star forms especially with adding them in the All Star roster when you have to face them. Besides, here's what I would see if these characters were to be included and where they will be as DLC in All Star mode:

-Mewtwo(1994-1998 lineup)
-Wolf O' Donnell(1994-1998 lineup)
-Krystal(2001-2006 lineup)
-Impa(1994-1998 lineup)

So from the looks of it, yeah your 1994-1998 lineup will perhaps be the biggest in the bunch if that were to happen from a technical standpoint.
 

TheDarkKnightNoivern

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I don't think there'd be a problem, to be honest. You could stretch the Wii U CSS to five rows if needed and still viably be able to see everything you'd need to see. The 3DS version would be able to use a pop up box for DLC characters since every person has their own CSS. Logistics aside, I doubt they'd let something like that limit how many characters they might or might not want to add. Other factors would be more important.

Another row can easily fit on the 3DS CSS if the portraits are resized a little

And the wii u version can probably add multiple rows to the left if necessary
 
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IanTheGamer

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The only part of Command I liked was the breakup between Krystal and Fox (though the reasoning was stupid), it added a realistic element to their relationship, which added a lot more depth to their characters.
Can I tell you all some improbable DLC characters I want?
(Improbable doesn't mean they are impossible, my character wish list only consists of characters eligible for Smash, No Kratos, Nathan Drake, Goku, or Shrek, anyone who wants Goku or Shrek is an idiot, also no Conker, Banjo and Kazooie, or any other Rareware IP (except Donkey Kong Country, or Star Fox Adventures), Ion't care if they appeared on N64 classics, they are currently owned by Microsoft, and as long as they are owned by Microsoft they will NEVER EVER be in Smash, No Wreck It Ralph either for similar reasons as Goku or Shrek)
 
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jahkzheng

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Which is why looking at the rosters for both versions of the game, if they really want to take that extra mile, after Mewtwo, if we get just DLC characters, then at least 3 or 4 more would do the trick to fill out the roster and make it even. However, when that happens then we will expect for new trophies on those characters in both their Classic and All Star forms especially with adding them in the All Star roster when you have to face them. Besides, here's what I would see if these characters were to be included and where they will be as DLC in All Star mode:

-Mewtwo(1994-1998 lineup)
-Wolf O' Donnell(1994-1998 lineup)
-Krystal(2001-2006 lineup)
-Impa(1994-1998 lineup)

So from the looks of it, yeah your 1994-1998 lineup will perhaps be the biggest in the bunch if that were to happen from a technical standpoint.
I like your four DLC examples there. Obviously there's Mewtwo but the other three characters you listed are in my top 5 most wanted characters list.


Another row can easily fit on the 3DS CSS if the portraits are resized a little

And the wii u version can probably add multiple rows to the left if necessary
Nice job on that CSS. Good example.

Also, nice new avatar.
 

N3ON

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I don't mind fleshing out the characters, I think there's a lot of untapped potential to explore in that area, but Command wallowed in melodrama to the point of basically becoming a soap.

I imagine SF Wii U will go the opposite direction. Like I said before, I wouldn't even be surprised if it cut every character who wasn't in SF64, though I hope it doesn't.
 

Jason the Yoshi

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I don't mind fleshing out the characters, I think there's a lot of untapped potential to explore in that area, but Command wallowed in melodrama to the point of basically becoming a soap.

I imagine SF Wii U will go the opposite direction. Like I said before, I wouldn't even be surprised if it cut every character who wasn't in SF64, though I hope it doesn't.
I wouldn't go as far as thinking they'd scrap everything new after StarFox 64, but if they do decide to scrap a bunch of things, I think characters such as Krystal and Panther Caroso should still be safe at the very least.
 
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N3ON

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No non-EAD-created characters are safe.

You need to look past your bias and see that if EAD can cut Diddy from a DK game, they can cut Krystal from a Starfox game.

I don't think it's guaranteed they will, but Miyamoto likes what Miyamoto makes, and even though he's the reason Krystal is part of the SF series in the first place, he didn't make her.

So, might she return? Yeah it's a definite possibility. But is she safe? Not for a minute.
 

Jason the Yoshi

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No non-EAD-created characters are safe.

You need to look past your bias and see that if EAD can cut Diddy from a DK game, they can cut Krystal from a Starfox game.

I don't think it's guaranteed they will, but Miyamoto likes what Miyamoto makes, and even though he's the reason Krystal is part of the SF series in the first place, he didn't make her.

So, might she return? Yeah it's a definite possibility. But is she safe? Not for a minute.
Refresh my memory, Which DK game did Diddy Kong miss?
 

Jason the Yoshi

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Jungle Beat. The only mainline one made by EAD.
Ah.

Either way, I'm kinda leaning towards it more likely than not Krystal will return. I suppose we will have an answer when we see the StarFox Wii U demo at E3. (Or not, considering how they held back Ganondorf's appearance in Hyrule Warriors until the August Direct)
 

N3ON

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Ah.

Either way, I'm kinda leaning towards it more likely than not Krystal will return. I suppose we will have an answer when we see the StarFox Wii U demo at E3. (Or not, considering how they held back Ganondorf's appearance in Hyrule Warriors until the August Direct)
That's a nice little caveat you've provided for yourself if she doesn't show up in the trailer. :smirk:

But Hyrule Warriors was like Smash, you spread out the character reveals to maximize hype because it's a largely character-based game. SF Wii U not so much, the characters are secondary to the gameplay. This holds especially true to EAD games. I mean in the Arwing or the Landmaster they pretty much all play the same anyway.

I agree you can't judge the entirety of a game by its trailer, but if she doesn't show up in it, I wouldn't hold out too much hope for her having any sort of major role in the game. We'll see I guess.
 

jahkzheng

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I guess so. I'm currently looking for a copy of Donkey Kong 64 since I just purchased an N64 recently, is that one as hard as the other ones?
It's been soooo long since I've played that game. I guess I should spoiler this, just in case...

I don't remember any levels being too hard, but I do remember that K. Rool was a tough boss battle that took more than a few tries. One of my favorite features was the instrument playing and having all those Kongs to play with, each specializing in something specific. The multiplayer was fun too. Played that a lot with my old friends back in the day, heh. Oh, I do remember one thing that was hard in Donkey Kong 64... I think one of the coins or gold bananas or something had to be unlocked by beating the original Donkey Kong. There's literally an arcade machine hidden in DK64 that you can play the original Donkey Kong on.

Basically, the difference between a hard platformer and a hard 3D platformer is kind of hard for me to compare, but I'd say DK64 is probably fairly equivalent to the Country games. Being a little more open in general, I think you die less but spend more time on a level. Again, been a real long time so it's hard for me to say. It's fun. That's the important part.
 
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JapanGuy

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Krystal is ****ing hot, add he pls. Oh, and her staff would make her unique, and shes a girl, so yeah, legit reasons...
Being a girl and having a staff doesn't equate to legit reasons to be included. I think Sakurai should bring back Wolf.
 

jahkzheng

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Being a girl and having a staff doesn't equate to legit reasons to be included. I think Sakurai should bring back Wolf.
You're responding to an ancient half joking post btw.

Most of us here feel Wolf should come back too and it was a shame he was cut. We also have many other more reasonable reasons for why we're in support of Krystal. Her potential uniqueness for one and just being an extra rep for Star Fox. Being part of this thread though, you can imagine we have some bias in her favor of course. In general, we're biased to liking Star Fox and wanting more reps for it.
 
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JapanGuy

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You're responding to an ancient half joking post btw.

Most of us here feel Wolf should come back too and it was a shame he was cut. We also have many other more reasonable reasons for why we're in support of Krystal. Her potential uniqueness for one and just being an extra rep for Star Fox. Being part of this thread though, you can imagine we have some bias in her favor of course. In general, we're biased to liking Star Fox and wanting more reps for it.
I don't see why she should be in Smash 4. She's mostly hated in her own community, and from what I hear, she isn't going to be in Star Fox Wii U, and if that's the case then she would literally have no reason to be in Smash 4. Of course I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.
 
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