Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[KingFeeF]

i actually have no point...i was jus stating the fact that the person in windwaker is not meant to be link...but a person following in links footsteps

 

[DarkKnight077]

i actually have no point...i was jus stating the fact that the person in windwaker is not meant to be link...but a person following in links footsteps

Err..wrong? Actually WW Link is suppose to be the new Hero. Of course he isn't the "Hero of Time" just the "Hero of the Winds." But he still has the characteristics of Link. He has the Triforce of Courage he, he welds the Master Sword, defeats Ganny and saves Zelda. I think he is earned the title Link. He is just another version of Link in a different time that's all.

 

[freeman123]

Wiseguy
1) It doesn't matter how you feel about Bowser Jr. He's the second most prominent villian in the Mario series and a sure bet to appear in Brawl.

Maybe it doesn't matter what I think, but he's still lame.

Wiseguy
2) Because Twili Midna would take less time to program if she were a Zelda clone. Sakurai may not have the luxery of designing all new movesets and still finish the game in time for our grandchildren to play it.

If he doesn't have time to add regular Midna, then he should just not use Midna at all. That's like adding Super Sonic & not Sonic, or Zero-Suit Samus & not Samus, or Dr. Mario & not Mario.

I got an idea, let's not add Geno because it would take too much time, but we'll add the spirit of Geno that posseses the doll as a Jigglypuff clone.

I'm telling you, either both versions of Midna get in, just the imp version get in, or neither of them get in. There is no way they're going to add Twili Midna & not the imp Midna. If you think that you're wrong.

Wiseguy
3) In cases where two charcaters have similar fighting styles, one has always been a clone of the other. Marth and Ike have similar fighting styles, but they are just different enough that they couldn't be clones.

What about Mario and Luigi?

 

[Chief Mendez]

I think he's got you, Wiseguy, in his middle point. Imp Midna or no Midna. And you know, with all the positive feedback about Midna, I'd be surprised if they haven't already made Midna.

Oh, right. My point is that they're most likely not going to need to resort to cloning Zelda, and if it ever becomes an issue, I agree with freeman123 on just leaving Midna out altogether (in that highly unlikely scenario).

 

[killbeast301]

Marth is a staple of Smash: the only fast footed, up close and personal swordsman in the game.

Huh? Marth is not a staple of smash. I don't think you understand what a staple of something is. Let me give you an example. Green tunics, the Master Sword, and Ganon, are staples of Zelda (technically the master sword wasn't in the first LoZ but whatever). Overalls are a staple of Mario. staples are recurring things/themes in games/stories. Smash would still be smash without marth. He was in 1 smash game. 1 game out of 2. There really aren't any "staples" of smash yet. Maybe collectible figurines (the dolls in the first smash, trophies in Melee) but that's it. Also, there are only 4 swordsmen in Melee. Link, Y. link, Marth, and Roy. Roy has no projectiles, so he is up close and personal too. Link, if you play him that way, can be as well. Young link, not really. However Y. link is fairly fast-footed. so he can be cut based on those reasons. He was in the first fire emblem is the "face" of fire emblem so he needs to be in for those reasons but not the ones you said.

*ppbth* marth as a staple.

 

[the_air_up_there7]

I like this thread, Jesus how much time did you spent to do this? What does plausible mean? I just hope falco makes it back. I also hope to use lucario. Some characters are nada que ver no offense but aight.....let's see if you are right. I use pichu am I insane? jeje

 

[DarkKnight077]

All right here is my last thing on Sora. I will not try to bash on him too much. Ok here is the problem with Sora. First off there are way too many Square Enix Characters. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Dragon Warrior and as well KH. That's a lot of characters to go through, though the DQ and DW characters wouldn't be noticed and Skurai will probably not add them. That leaves either KH or FF...but there is a problem six of the original FF games were on the Japanese Nintendo systems. As well re-released on the GBA and one of the DS for people who haven't played them. That's 12 games right there and plus one on the GCN. That means you have a lot more selection of those characters than you do on KH. Personally I wouldn't use Sora because that will just ignore those characters from FF. Plus..Kefka is just an awesome villain that maybe will get in. But that is the reason why I would say no to Sora.

 

[Chief Mendez]

But Kefka's not on the poll...so...

And if I could pick a FF Brawler...I'd go with Setzer or Celes.

 

[DarkKnight077]

I go with Celes since he was the main character from FFVI. I think he was. >.>

 

[Chief Mendez]

I go with Celes since he was the main character from FFVI. I think he was. >.>

Er, VI's lead wasn't even male...

To be honest, I only said Celes because she's sexy, and a 3D model from the Smash team'd be excellent.

Honestly, I think Locke'd work better than her in Smash.

 

[DarkKnight077]

...I forgot I have FFVI for the GBA and yet..well I keep forgetting. >.> You just want to oogle her? Gee most people like Zamus because she's **** hot and want to oogle her all ready. But it really depends what the Smash team wants. But..Sora? Come on there are plenty more Square characters to go around.

 

[Inkslinger]

I actually also agree that Midna should be included in the form you suggested mainly because i think looks more "serious" than her imp form (I guess you could argue that this form should be included because it's her "true" form).

There are some biases which ruin the list, like the very noticeable dislike of sheik and marth. I gotta admit thought, i also have a feeling that sheik won't reappear because she only appeared in orcarina of time, but OoT considered a masterpiece ( I actually haven't played it all myself >_<). I don't see Marth leaving the game at all, he's far too important and besides ken needs his favorite character. (It's either Marth or Ken as a playable character LOL).

I bet that either IC or G&W will make a come back and maybe both? Liked mentioned before, they are both very popular in japan and i feel that we need an obscure "oldschool" character.

I also will like to add that I disagree about adding baby bowser, sure he's got some credentials but do we really need another "mario world" (general) character. I see it more like a suggestion than a possibility that slot can be used for another great character.

Overall, the list is well presented (the lines introducing the characters were amusing), but what hurts this list is the subjectivity induced in it. I certainly see that you tried to move away from making a "wish list",but hints of bias are still all over the place. Really, I don't care if you like pokemon or not, but you gotta admit they're important. I'm not a fan myself, but it would've been nice if you also had talked about them more and in a more positive way.
But you probally weren't aming for an accurate list, but rather a mix of personal preference and very good possibilities.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

All right here is my last thing on Sora. I will not try to bash on him too much. Ok here is the problem with Sora. First off there are way too many Square Enix Characters. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Dragon Warrior and as well KH. That's a lot of characters to go through, though the DQ and DW characters wouldn't be noticed and Skurai will probably not add them. That leaves either KH or FF...but there is a problem six of the original FF games were on the Japanese Nintendo systems. As well re-released on the GBA and one of the DS for people who haven't played them. That's 12 games right there and plus one on the GCN. That means you have a lot more selection of those characters than you do on KH. Personally I wouldn't use Sora because that will just ignore those characters from FF. Plus..Kefka is just an awesome villain that maybe will get in. But that is the reason why I would say no to Sora.

No problem there. Sora is owned by Disney.

 

[Fawriel]

Er, VI's lead wasn't even male...

To be honest, I only said Celes because she's sexy, and a 3D model from the Smash team'd be excellent.

Honestly, I think Locke'd work better than her in Smash.

No, no, no!
Terra! Terra would be lovely and awesome and hot and cool and sad and pretty and... yes.
She's the real protagonist, although she disappears for a long time. Heck, the main theme carries her name! And it's pretty much the most recognizable and alive themes of any Final Fantasy ( if you don't count stuff like ye good ole victory fanfare )... Uematsu, if he composes more or all of the other songs, would have a blast composing her victory fanfare. It would either be like.. "Nadadadaaa... ( echo: nadadadaaa... )" or a remix of the VICTORY FANFARE! "Na-da-da-daaaa-daaa-daa-dap-da-daaa!" with e-guitars!! *air guitar*

 

[Kazuya]

Ehh, Ehh, EHH...

I really don't care if Ike is a less sissified version of Marth.

Part of the reason I like Marth is because he's a sissy. Seriously, Marth deserves to be in Brawl above any other FE character. I know I'm being slightly biast, but Marth's gotta be in.

Idon't htink Simon Belmont will be in it, it should be Crono instead.

Crono should be ranked higher than Sonic, comon - 2nd best game ever made in the world... Guy deserves SOME recognition...

 

[Kazuya]

Oh, and also, Sora - although I'd love to see him in it, I think thats a taking a serious chance... Marth + Crono!

 

[Wiseguy]

Good morning Gentlemen, let's see what you guys have been up to:

Wiseguy why do you want/expect so many clones in brawl.

The reason I want and expect more clones in Brawl is because:

1) They take less time to program into the game. This means that Sakurai could complete the game faster if he is running out of time. Even if he is on skedule, adding clones means more charcaters and ultimatly more fun for us.

2) There were quite a few clones in Melee. That isn't a bad thing, many clones were popular and fun charcaters that made the game more enjoyable.

My list includes 45 charcters, a bit optimistic to be sure. However, since 9 are cloned from one of the other 36 originl characters, its possible that Sakurai might just include that many.

Last time i checked "WW link" isnt link at all

Chech again. Like the Links in most games, WW Link is a seperate individual. However, he has just as much right to the name "Link" as the hero of 0oT.

I can agree (or allow myself to live through) with most of them, but cutting both Marth and Roy would make me very, very upset. Marth is a staple of Smash: the only fast footed, up close and personal swordsman in the game. While I never used them, the IC's were unique characters, and I value them for that; and Mewtwo, however bad, is still one of the more popular Pokemon (not that I really care). Finally, I think if Midna makes the game, she should be predominantly in her Imp form, but we need not start that crap here.


By the way, Simon Belmont all the way.

Dude, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Rocks!

Anyway, I think most of us are the same. We're willing to see older characters cut to make way for new one's as long as it does not include our favorite characters. You say you'll be upset when they cut Marth and Roy. I'll be upset when they (inevitably) axe Dr. Mario, my favorite Smash character. However, at the end of the day, I would far rather see Bowser Jr. in the game than Dr. Mario, Ike far more than Marth, Deoxys far more than Mewtwo, Olimar far more than Ice Climbers, etc. You have to realize that every charcater cut means another new one is included, and the last thing I want is to find out that Brawl is really Melee with a new paint job.

Maybe it doesn't matter what I think, but he's still lame.


If he doesn't have time to add regular Midna, then he should just not use Midna at all. That's like adding Super Sonic & not Sonic, or Zero-Suit Samus & not Samus, or Dr. Mario & not Mario.

I got an idea, let's not add Geno because it would take too much time, but we'll add the spirit of Geno that posseses the doll as a Jigglypuff clone.

I'm telling you, either both versions of Midna get in, just the imp version get in, or neither of them get in. There is no way they're going to add Twili Midna & not the imp Midna. If you think that you're wrong.


What about Mario and Luigi?

1) So is Jigglypuff. I win.

2) Or like adding a Ganondorf charcater cloned from Captain Falcon becasue they don't have nough time to create a new moveset.

Twili Midna is the true, definitive form of the character. She is not a "ghost" her her character like your suggestion.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so. I think most Twilight Princess fans would rather see Twili Midna than no Midna at all. I suspect that Sakuarai would probably rather include Imp Midna, but will settle for Twili Midna if he is pressed for time.

3) Luigi is a clone of Mario. Yes, Luigi has different stats and several unique moves, but his moveset is an altered version of Mario's.

I think he's got you, Wiseguy, in his middle point. Imp Midna or no Midna. And you know, with all the positive feedback about Midna, I'd be surprised if they haven't already made Midna.

Oh, right. My point is that they're most likely not going to need to resort to cloning Zelda, and if it ever becomes an issue, I agree with freeman123 on just leaving Midna out altogether (in that highly unlikely scenario).

Why wouldn't they resort to cloning Zelda? They've included plenty of clones in the past.

Huh? Marth is not a staple of smash. I don't think you understand what a staple of something is. Let me give you an example. Green tunics, the Master Sword, and Ganon, are staples of Zelda (technically the master sword wasn't in the first LoZ but whatever). Overalls are a staple of Mario. staples are recurring things/themes in games/stories. Smash would still be smash without marth. He was in 1 smash game. 1 game out of 2. There really aren't any "staples" of smash yet. Maybe collectible figurines (the dolls in the first smash, trophies in Melee) but that's it. Also, there are only 4 swordsmen in Melee. Link, Y. link, Marth, and Roy. Roy has no projectiles, so he is up close and personal too. Link, if you play him that way, can be as well. Young link, not really. However Y. link is fairly fast-footed. so he can be cut based on those reasons. He was in the first fire emblem is the "face" of fire emblem so he needs to be in for those reasons but not the ones you said.

*ppbth* marth as a staple.

Yeah, I think he meant that Marth is one of the charcaters most associated with Smash. This is not, however, enough reason for him to be included.

I like this thread, Jesus how much time did you spent to do this? What does plausible mean? I just hope falco makes it back. I also hope to use lucario. Some characters are nada que ver no offense but aight.....let's see if you are right. I use pichu am I insane? jeje

I'm glad you like the thread. I worked on it on and off over the Easter weekend, but I've been thinking about it for some time.

Plausible means not something is not only possible, but likely to happen. In my list, a charcater listed as "plausible" is below "Very Likely".

Using Pichu doesn't make you insane, it means you must really enjoy a challenge. Expecting him to return in Brawl, however, does make someone insane.

All right here is my last thing on Sora. I will not try to bash on him too much. Ok here is the problem with Sora. First off there are way too many Square Enix Characters. Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Dragon Warrior and as well KH. That's a lot of characters to go through, though the DQ and DW characters wouldn't be noticed and Skurai will probably not add them. That leaves either KH or FF...but there is a problem six of the original FF games were on the Japanese Nintendo systems. As well re-released on the GBA and one of the DS for people who haven't played them. That's 12 games right there and plus one on the GCN. That means you have a lot more selection of those characters than you do on KH. Personally I wouldn't use Sora because that will just ignore those characters from FF. Plus..Kefka is just an awesome villain that maybe will get in. But that is the reason why I would say no to Sora.

I haven't played the GBA Final Fantasies yet, but I'm betting that none of the characters you mentioned are well known enough to appear. Therefore they are guaranteed to be left out regardless of whether Sora makes an appearance or not.

Aside from Mallow and Geno, Sora was the only Square Enix charcater on the list. And, unless I'm mistaken, don't Final Fantasy charcaters appear in his games? (That's not sarcasm, I really haven't played any KH games.) Any way you slice it, Sora is the only Square rep that has a shot in Brawl.

I actually also agree that Midna should be included in the form you suggested mainly because i think looks more "serious" than her imp form (I guess you could argue that this form should be included because it's her "true" form).

There are some biases which ruin the list, like the very noticeable dislike of sheik and marth. I gotta admit thought, i also have a feeling that sheik won't reappear because she only appeared in orcarina of time, but OoT considered a masterpiece ( I actually haven't played it all myself >_<). I don't see Marth leaving the game at all, he's far too important and besides ken needs his favorite character. (It's either Marth or Ken as a playable character LOL).

I bet that either IC or G&W will make a come back and maybe both? Liked mentioned before, they are both very popular in japan and i feel that we need an obscure "oldschool" character.

I also will like to add that I disagree about adding baby bowser, sure he's got some credentials but do we really need another "mario world" (general) character. I see it more like a suggestion than a possibility that slot can be used for another great character.

Overall, the list is well presented (the lines introducing the characters were amusing), but what hurts this list is the subjectivity induced in it. I certainly see that you tried to move away from making a "wish list",but hints of bias are still all over the place. Really, I don't care if you like pokemon or not, but you gotta admit they're important. I'm not a fan myself, but it would've been nice if you also had talked about them more and in a more positive way.
But you probally weren't aming for an accurate list, but rather a mix of personal preference and very good possibilities.

Glad to see SOMEONE doesn't think I'm nuts for including the non-cursed Midna form.

Like any human being, I will admit I have biases - particularily on a subject as near and dear to me as Smash Bros. However, I didn't cut Marth and Sheik because I don't like them. If that were the case, there is no way I would have included Jigglypuff. I gave reasoning to justify cutting Marth. Don't assume I'm wrong just because I used entertaining jokes as well.

There are plenty of old school charcaters that deserve to take the place of ICs and G&W. Geno, Simon Belemont, Poo, and Megaman are all examples of retro charcaters on my list (not to mention charcters like Mario) so I don't think that I've given old school gamers anything to whine about.

You may not want any more Mario charcaters, but I've seen people convinced that Toad, Waluigi and Daisy deserve to be included. I decided to compromise and include a Mario charcater that doesn't suck.

Actually, I was aiming for an accurate character roster and not another wish list. The charcaters I've included were designed to give fair representation to all of the Nintendo series. The opinions expresssed in my list are designed to show my feelings towards each character. For what its worth, I left out charcaters like Paper Mario and Bonk (which I would like to see in the game) and included characters like K. Rool and Poo which I really don't care about.

I'm sorry for hurting the Pokemon's feelings. Do you want me to apologize to all ten million of them personally?

No problem there. Sora is owned by Disney.

Doesn't matter. Disney will sign off on Sora's inclusion if they get a check from Nintendo with enough zeros.

Edit: Kazuya, I didn't cut Marth because he's a sissy (although that's what he is). I cut him becasue he's too unimportant to the FE series. And although Chrono Trigger was really good (from what I hear) I don't think he was on Sakurai's poll. Sora was.

 

[Chief Mendez]

They wouldn't end up copying Zelda onto Midna because Midna's the titular character of the latest (some, not I, would say greatest) Zelda game, which, if the past and the current info is any indication, will be the basis for all the Zelda smashers. ["Current info" is Link's model, not to mention your own feelings on Ganon and Zelda. "Past" in this case is that in Melee, all the Zelda characters were based off of the (not latest, but...) greatest Zelda game (Ocarina), so I don't see why they wouldn't follow that trend here.]

Anyway, if they're going to include Ganon from TP (as you assume),

Spoiler

who was a relatively minor character in the game

, then they basically have to include

Spoiler

the Twilight Princess herself

. Midna's the most important character in TP, second only to Link, and if they're going to include Princess "You Ride And I'll Shoot" Zelda and Evil King "Curls His Hair" Ganondorf, then they can't ignore her and simply clone Zelda.

Edited to add spoilers.

 

[Stryks]

The hell? I agree midna has to get a moveset that can be made using the magic attacks she does and all the abilities she has in TP, and believe me theyll add ganondorf and zelda...

U c ganondorf and zelda, even tough they had a minor role in TP unlike the rest of the zeldas, theyre important to the series in general, ganondorf is the main boss in all the home console zeldas, and zelda, well seriously its called legend of ZELDA for a reason, I bet midna, ganondorf and zelda will get in, and hell if were luckey we'll get Zant and WW link in the process...

 

[Wiseguy]

They wouldn't end up copying Zelda onto Midna because Midna's the titular character of the latest (some, not I, would say greatest) Zelda game, which, if the past and the current info is any indication, will be the basis for all the Zelda smashers. ["Current info" is Link's model, not to mention your own feelings on Ganon and Zelda. "Past" in this case is that in Melee, all the Zelda characters were based off of the (not latest, but...) greatest Zelda game (Ocarina), so I don't see why they wouldn't follow that trend here.]

Anyway, if they're going to include Ganon from TP (as you assume),

Spoiler

who was a relatively minor character in the game

, then they basically have to include

Spoiler

the Twilight Princess herself

. Midna's the most important character in TP, second only to Link, and if they're going to include Princess "You Ride And I'll Shoot" Zelda and Evil King "Curls His Hair" Ganondorf, then they can't ignore her and simply clone Zelda.

Edited to add spoilers.

The hell? I agree midna has to get a moveset that can be made using the magic attacks she does and all the abilities she has in TP, and believe me theyll add ganondorf and zelda...

U c ganondorf and zelda, even tough they had a minor role in TP unlike the rest of the zeldas, theyre important to the series in general, ganondorf is the main boss in all the home console zeldas, and zelda, well seriously its called legend of ZELDA for a reason, I bet midna, ganondorf and zelda will get in, and hell if were luckey we'll get Zant and WW link in the process...

Yes and yes, all things being equal, Midna would likely be included in Imp form with a unique moveset. However, are you guys seriously saying that if the choice comes down to cloning Twili Midna from Zelda or leaving out the most important TP charcater from Brawl, Sakurai wouldn't choose the lesser of two evils and include Twili Midna?

Ideally, all the charcaters would have unique movesets but I seriously doubt Sakurai has the time to include 45 completely new charcaters.

 

[DarkKnight077]

I think Zant should get in even before Minda. My reason is simple the story was around Zant neither Ganny or Zelda. We got to know more of Link and Minda was just a partner. In my opinion Minda to me seem like Navi you can actually ride on. Zant was the TRUE enemy at the end of the game. He was the major character of TP. Zelda and Ganny get a yes because they have been in mostly every Zelda game I know of. OoT is still dubbed the greatest Zelda game of all time. All they really need is some new moves. As for Shiek..eh I can care less.

But Zant is the major enemy of TP. He basically gives Ganny his powers back, that's like putting Boweser Jr. before Bowser. It really doesn't make sense. Of course the boss battle with Zant was nuts. (If you even played TP).

Spoiler

However even at the end of the game, Zant reappears to kill Ganny with a twitch of the neck. Which indicate that Zant wanted revenge because Ganny took his powers after the fight with Link and left him there.

Edited because of Spoilers.

 

[Wiseguy]

I think Zant should get in even before Minda. My reason is simple the story was around Zant neither Ganny or Zelda. We got to know more of Link and Minda was just a partner. In my opinion Minda to me seem like Navi you can actually ride on. Zant was the TRUE enemy at the end of the game. He was the major character of TP. Zelda and Ganny get a yes because they have been in mostly every Zelda game I know of. OoT is still dubbed the greatest Zelda game of all time. All they really need is some new moves. As for Shiek..eh I can care less.

But Zant is the major enemy of TP. He basically gives Ganny his powers back, that's like putting Boweser Jr. before Bowser. It really doesn't make sense. Of course the boss battle with Zant was nuts. (If you even played TP).

Spoiler

However even at the end of the game, Zant reappears to kill Ganny with a twitch of the neck. Which indicate that Zant wanted revenge because Ganny took his powers after the fight with Link and left him there.

Edited because of Spoilers.

First of all, Midna rides on Wolf Link not the other way around, and she is given far more charcater development than any of Link's other sidekicks including Navi.

Second, I would argue that TP is far superior to OoT. There is no supreme court ruling on which is the definitive "best Zelda game of all time".

Third, I like Zant and I suppose you could argue that he is the more prominent villian of TP (I disagree) but Ganondorf is THE villian of the Zelda series and his appearance at the conclusion of TP was his most impressive to date. In short, Ganondorf is far more Brawl-worthy than Zant.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

I have to agree with Wiseguy here (hey, it happens), as you can't really compare Midna to the rest of Links partners, as the story does revolve around her more than anything. She is probably the Zelda character with the most personality and development in general IMO. As for Zant, despite being somewhat prevalent during the story (though he only really appeared a few times), really isn't the main villain of TP, and I definitely wouldn't say he is more important than Midna, or more likely to enter brawl than her.

Though despite Midna's importance in TP, her overall importance to the Zelda series is nothing compared to Zelda and Gannondorf, despite how little we see of them in TP.

 

[Zarasai]

Using Pichu doesn't make you insane, it means you must really enjoy a challenge.

Not neccesarily (sp?) true. i mean if you can beat event match 51 (and i could, im no pro) with pichu, hes not entirely uselsss. thinking of trying to actually get some KOs on cruel melee with him would be pretty freaking hard though.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Yes and yes, all things being equal, Midna would likely be included in Imp form with a unique moveset. However, are you guys seriously saying that if the choice comes down to cloning Twili Midna from Zelda or leaving out the most important TP charcater from Brawl, Sakurai wouldn't choose the lesser of two evils and include Twili Midna?

Ideally, all the charcaters would have unique movesets but I seriously doubt Sakurai has the time to include 45 completely new charcaters.

No no,never that. What I am saying, though, is that I can't see a reality in which we don't get Imp Midna with an original moveset (except,of course, a crazy parallel universe where we don't get Imp Midna with an original moveset).

And another thing! Ganon wasn't as cool in TP as he has been in the past. If they had hinted that

Spoiler

Zant was being controlled earlier

; basically just dropped more hints

Spoiler

as to who we were really fighting before the final sections of the game

, it would've been better. I ended up being pissed that they basically

Spoiler

just tossed out this really **** cool villain for one that must

, out of necessity, sleep with rollers to keep those dainty curls nice and trim. Although I will say it was the best Ganondorf boss battle we've ever had, especially the music during the final showdown.

DarkKnight077: ...You're a strange one.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Yes I am an odd person. But anyways let's think about this. First off there are three major enemies that I know of. Vatti, Ganny and Pig Gannon. Of course Zant was controlling Ganny because he did give him the powers and killed him at the end. But...imp Minda is more of a good choice than full grown Minda. But..it's up Sakuri to choose.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Yes I am an odd person. But anyways let's think about this. First off there are three major enemies that I know of. Vatti, Ganny and Pig Gannon. Of course Zant was controlling Ganny because he did give him the powers and killed him at the end. But...imp Minda is more of a good choice than full grown Minda. But..it's up Sakuri to choose.

Okay, let's just quit this line of discussion before it gets out of hand. It's irrelevant anyways.

But yay for Imp Midna!

 

[freeman123]

Wiseguy
2) Or like adding a Ganondorf charcater cloned from Captain Falcon becasue they don't have nough time to create a new moveset.

That's not the same thing at all. You want to add Midna's lesser seen form over the form she takes through out the entire game, & that makes no sense & will never happen in a million years.

And who the **** bases their character picks on how easy it is for the creators? Couldn't you make the same argument against anybody that isn't a clone? Why is Midna the one character that you're deciding they won't have time to come up with moves for?

The truth is it has absolutely nothing to do with how long it would take the creators to develop her. You just like Twili Midna better then Midna, but you know if you just say that you won't convince anybody that Twili Midna will be in over Midna. So instead you came up with some BS story about how it would be easier on the developers.

I don't think you're losing any sleep at night knowing how hard it is for the developers to make this game.

Wiseguy
Maybe I am wrong

you are.

Wiseguy
but I don't think so.

Think again.

Wiseguy
I think most Twilight Princess fans would rather see Twili Midna than no Midna at all.

Yeah, if those were the only two options. Most Mario fans would rather see Frog-Suit Mario then no Mario at all. Those aren't the only choices, though! They have the option of adding Midna just like they have the option of adding Mario.

Wiseguy
3) Luigi is a clone of Mario. Yes, Luigi has different stats and several unique moves, but his moveset is an altered version of Mario's.

No he's not.

Wiseguy
Expecting him to return in Brawl, however, does make someone insane.

I don't think so. I think any character that was in Melee is likely to return until it is specifically said that they won't.

Wiseguy
Aside from Mallow and Geno, Sora was the only Square Enix charcater on the list. And, unless I'm mistaken, don't Final Fantasy charcaters appear in his games? (That's not sarcasm, I really haven't played any KH games.) Any way you slice it, Sora is the only Square rep that has a shot in Brawl.

What? How is Sora the only SE rep that could be in Brawl? Sora has literally no chance, because not only is he 3rd party but he's from a 3rd party that has other characters who would get in before him. It's just like how Ecco the dolphin has no chance. He's owned by Sega, & if they get anyone from Sega it'll be Sonic. If they get anyone from Square, it'll be from Final Fantasy(or Geno). Thinking that Sora would get in over a Final Fantasy character is like thinking Twili Midna would get in over Midna. Oh, wait...

Wiseguy
Actually, I was aiming for an accurate character roster and not another wish list.

Well, you missed.

Wiseguy
Doesn't matter. Disney will sign off on Sora's inclusion if they get a check from Nintendo with enough zeros.

Why would Nintendo pay Disney anything to use Sora?

Chief Mendez
Anyway, if they're going to include Ganon from TP (as you assume), who was a relatively minor character in the game

Are you stupid? He's the final boss!

Chief Mendez
then they basically have to include the Twilight Princess herself.

Yeah, in the form she's most known as.

And I don't see why everyone thinks Midna has to be included. For all we know, we'll never see Midna in another game again. So far, the only Zelda characters that have been in Smash have been reccuring characters that are in almost all Zelda games. The one exception is Sheik, but Sheik is basically the same person as Zelda.

And how long are we supposed to black out stuff about TP? Who didn't guess Ganon was going to be the last boss & Midna was going to be the Twilight Princess 6 months before the game came out? You don't need Scooby & the gang to solve these mysteries. They even showed the entire ending of Twilight Princess on TV just the other day, for God's sakes.

And why is TP the only game we have to warn people about spoilers? What if some people are playing Wario: Master of Disguise? Maybe they don't want to be told what costume you get when you draw a reverse thunderbolt.

Spoiler

It's Sparky Wario.

But we don't have rules for that game.

When they show the ending of a game on television, it's been out long enough to talk about it.

Wiseguy
Yes and yes, all things being equal, Midna would likely be included in Imp form with a unique moveset. However, are you guys seriously saying that if the choice comes down to cloning Twili Midna from Zelda or leaving out the most important TP charcater from Brawl, Sakurai wouldn't choose the lesser of two evils and include Twili Midna?

Yes, that's exactly what we're saying.

 

[Numa Dude]

Wiseguy brawl has no set release date it could be the end of this year or it could be the beginning of next year and the only reason there where clones in melee was because of time restraints so there really is no reason to add clones.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Hey, freeman123...ease up, we're all friends here.

Ganon didn't really do anything til' the very end of the game, so I say he's minor. The final boss in alot of the FF games never appear or are described before fighting them, example: FFIX's last battle was vs. some random god of death called Necron. Being a boss does not a major character make.

And it's a crying shame that TP's ending's (the 2nd best Zelda story) would be ruined like that. From what I read on Joystiq though, it's just EB Games "subtly" trying to get more TP trade-ins...

The game isn't that old yet, and I'm sure all those Wii-less people appreciate spoiler tags.

 

[Wiseguy]

I have to agree with Wiseguy here (hey, it happens), as you can't really compare Midna to the rest of Links partners, as the story does revolve around her more than anything. She is probably the Zelda character with the most personality and development in general IMO. As for Zant, despite being somewhat prevalent during the story (though he only really appeared a few times), really isn't the main villain of TP, and I definitely wouldn't say he is more important than Midna, or more likely to enter brawl than her.

Though despite Midna's importance in TP, her overall importance to the Zelda series is nothing compared to Zelda and Gannondorf, despite how little we see of them in TP.

Yeah, it is strange for us to be in agreement. Maybe because its Friday the 13th...

Not neccesarily (sp?) true. i mean if you can beat event match 51 (and i could, im no pro) with pichu, hes not entirely uselsss. thinking of trying to actually get some KOs on cruel melee with him would be pretty freaking hard though.

Fair enough. I suppose Pichu has his purposes in Melee, but I doubt too many people are holding their breath for his return in Brawl.

No no,never that. What I am saying, though, is that I can't see a reality in which we don't get Imp Midna with an original moveset (except,of course, a crazy parallel universe where we don't get Imp Midna with an original moveset).

And another thing! Ganon wasn't as cool in TP as he has been in the past. If they had hinted that

Spoiler

Zant was being controlled earlier

; basically just dropped more hints

Spoiler

as to who we were really fighting before the final sections of the game

, it would've been better. I ended up being pissed that they basically

Spoiler

just tossed out this really **** cool villain for one that must

, out of necessity, sleep with rollers to keep those dainty curls nice and trim. Although I will say it was the best Ganondorf boss battle we've ever had, especially the music during the final showdown.

DarkKnight077: ...You're a strange one.

Mendez, you're really fixated on Ganondorf's supposedly curled hair aren't you? To be honest I still don't see it.

I will agree, however, that Ganondorf should have played a bigger role in the story of Twilight Princess. As the most awesome incarnation of Ganon to date,

That's not the same thing at all. You want to add Midna's lesser seen form over the form she takes through out the entire game, & that makes no sense & will never happen in a million years.

Are you sure? You don't think that Sakuarai wanted to include OoT Ganonondorf in Melee with a unique moveset, but settled on cloning him in order to save time? Sounds like an identical circumstance to me.

The fact is that if Midna has to be cloned, then her Twili form will be included. Imp Midna is too dissimilar to be cloned.

And who the **** bases their character picks on how easy it is for the creators? Couldn't you make the same argument against anybody that isn't a clone? Why is Midna the one character that you're deciding they won't have time to come up with moves for?

1) I do. I was trying to predict which characters would most likely be included, that means considering which characters would be less time consuming to program.

2) You could, but you'd be wrong. Clones, as everyone knows, were included in Melee not because the Sakuari's team ran out of ideas, but because they had a limited amount of time in which to work and were forced to prioritize. Stating the same about any other charcater is just speculation.

3) Actually, if you took the time to read what I wrote, you'll notice that Twili Midna is one of nine clones on my list. Others inlcude Saumerai Goroh, the Black Knight, Poo and King Dedede. My argument is that Sakurai may be forced to decide to make one unique moveset for one of these four charcaters of clone all four of them from existing movesets (assuming that this option would take a longer period of time.)

The truth is it has absolutely nothing to do with how long it would take the creators to develop her. You just like Twili Midna better then Midna, but you know if you just say that you won't convince anybody that Twili Midna will be in over Midna. So instead you came up with some BS story about how it would be easier on the developers.

I don't think you're losing any sleep at night knowing how hard it is for the developers to make this game.

Your right, I do prefer Twili Midna. I also believe that she is more likely to be included because ahe would be less time consuming. It's just a happy coincidence that my preferance and the most likely outcome are one and the same.

And its also true that I don't stay awake until the late hours of the night worrying about the developers. Sue me.

you are.


Think again.

Go suck on eggs.

Yeah, if those were the only two options. Most Mario fans would rather see Frog-Suit Mario then no Mario at all. Those aren't the only choices, though! They have the option of adding Midna just like they have the option of adding Mario.

True, but Midna isn't like Mario. She's only starred in one game and her full importance as a charcater wasn't made clear until Brawl was already in development. That means having her appear may not have always been part of Sakurai's plan.

No he's not.

He is a modified clone, but a clone nevertheless.

I don't think so. I think any character that was in Melee is likely to return until it is specifically said that they won't.

Good for you.

What? How is Sora the only SE rep that could be in Brawl? Sora has literally no chance, because not only is he 3rd party but he's from a 3rd party that has other characters who would get in before him. It's just like how Ecco the dolphin has no chance. He's owned by Sega, & if they get anyone from Sega it'll be Sonic. If they get anyone from Square, it'll be from Final Fantasy(or Geno). Thinking that Sora would get in over a Final Fantasy character is like thinking Twili Midna would get in over Midna. Oh, wait...

Sora was the only Square Enix charcater to appear on Sakurai's list, besides Geno who was included on my list.

It is also worth noting that Sora is the clear representative of his (highly popular) series while other Square Enix properties like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have no clear representative.

Well, you missed.

Bite me.

Why would Nintendo pay Disney anything to use Sora?

Asuming that Disney has some ownership of the franchise, Nintendo would pay Disney so that they could count on all the Kingdom Hearts fans purchasing Brawl as well as Wii to play it on. Its no different than other 3rd party charcaters like Sonic or Megaman.

Yeah, in the form she's most known as.

And I don't see why everyone thinks Midna has to be included. For all we know, we'll never see Midna in another game again. So far, the only Zelda characters that have been in Smash have been reccuring characters that are in almost all Zelda games. The one exception is Sheik, but Sheik is basically the same person as Zelda.

You may not consider Sheik to be a true charcater addition, but she took just as time consuming to create as Zelda. Midna is the same as Sheik in that she is a popular character who has starred as the most recent Zelda game.

Yes, that's exactly what we're saying.

But all things aren't equal, so Sakurai may have to put in Twili Midna.

Have a nice day.

Wiseguy brawl has no set release date it could be the end of this year or it could be the beginning of next year and the only reason there where clones in melee was because of time restraints so there really is no reason to add clones.

Yes, but what makes you think Brawl won't face similar time constraints? Nintendo wants that system seller out ASAP.

 

[Numa Dude]

Actually it's the other way around. Waiting for a game makes hype and if the game takes a long time to make then people will think they worked real hard to make it perfect (which in Nintendo's case is true) so the longer the wait the more they will sell which gives them more time to make all the characters not clones and make the game perfect. Just a side note I'm not really against clones I just doubt they will be in.

 

[Wiseguy]

Actually it's the other way around. Waiting for a game makes hype and if the game takes a long time to make then people will think they worked real hard to make it perfect (which in Nintendo's case is true) so the longer the wait the more they will sell which gives them more time to make all the characters not clones and make the game perfect. Just a side note I'm not really against clones I just doubt they will be in.

True, releasing a game too soon can sometimes hurt sales. However, releasing too late can be just as damaging.

This holiday season, millions of gamers will decide where to spend their hard earned money. Releasing Brawl might will many gamers to purchace a Wii rather than a 360. The other consoles will have their big franchises in time for launch, so Nintendo should as well.

Including some charcaters as clones could be a way for Sakurai to realease Brawl before year's end.

 

[freeman123]

Wiseguy
Are you sure? You don't think that Sakuarai wanted to include OoT Ganonondorf in Melee with a unique moveset, but settled on cloning him in order to save time? Sounds like an identical circumstance to me.

The fact is that if Midna has to be cloned, then her Twili form will be included. Imp Midna is too dissimilar to be cloned.

Am I speaking Chinese? I'm not talking about clones at all, I'm talking about how Twili Midna getting in without Midna will never happen in a billion years. Anybody that thinks it will is ********. The fact that you have to say Twili Midna just so people know which one you're talking about proves that that's not her most recognizable form. All I have to say is Midna & people know I mean the imp Midna. I don't have to call Mario Plumber Mario, I just say Mario & people know who I mean. But if I wanted to talk about any other version of Mario, I couldn't just say Mario or people wouldn't be sure who I was talking about.

Wiseguy
1) I do. I was trying to predict which characters would most likely be included

Well, you didn't do a very good job.

Wiseguy
Clones, as everyone knows, were included in Melee not because the Sakuari's team ran out of ideas, but because they had a limited amount of time in which to work and were forced to prioritize. Stating the same about any other charcater is just speculation.

So why isn't it just speculation when you do it?

Wiseguy
It's just a happy coincidence that my preferance and the most likely outcome are one and the same.

Okay, you're right... They're not adding Link either, but they're still going to add Wolf Link as a clone of Wolf from Star Fox.

Wiseguy
True, but Midna isn't like Mario. She's only starred in one game and her full importance as a charcater wasn't made clear until Brawl was already in development. That means having her appear may not have always been part of Sakurai's plan.

What does that have to do with anything?

Wiseguy
It is also worth noting that Sora is the clear representative of his (highly popular) series while other Square Enix properties like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have no clear representative.

Black Mage

And if you want to talk about clear representatives, Final Fantasy is the clear representative of SE, not Kingdom Hearts.

They can't add Sora anyway, it would be too time consuming. But they're still going to add Crossdresser Sora, who has never appeared in any game, because he can be a clone of Peach.

Wiseguy
Asuming that Disney has some ownership of the franchise, Nintendo would pay Disney so that they could count on all the Kingdom Hearts fans purchasing Brawl as well as Wii to play it on. Its no different than other 3rd party charcaters like Sonic or Megaman.

No they wouldn't.

Wiseguy
Midna is the same as Sheik in that she is a popular character who has starred as the most recent Zelda game.

She's also the same as Sheik in that they didn't say, "Zelda is taking too long to make. Let's add Sheik as a clone of somebody to save time, & leave Zelda out completely which will make no sense at all."

Wiseguy
But all things aren't equal, so Sakurai may have to put in Twili Midna.

What?

Wiseguy
Yes, but what makes you think Brawl won't face similar time constraints? Nintendo wants that system seller out ASAP.

That's not true. If they wanted it out ASAP don't you think it could be out by now? They've been making it since 2005. It's pretty obvious they want to take their time on it.


Oh yeah, and instead of adding Midna or Twili Midna they're going to add that spirit looking form Midna takes outside of the Twilight realm as a clone of Boo from Mario Bros.

 

[Numa Dude]

True, releasing a game too soon can sometimes hurt sales. However, releasing too late can be just as damaging.

This holiday season, millions of gamers will decide where to spend their hard earned money. Releasing Brawl might will many gamers to purchace a Wii rather than a 360. The other consoles will have their big franchises in time for launch, so Nintendo should as well.

Including some charcaters as clones could be a way for Sakurai to realease Brawl before year's end.

Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3 will be released then I believe and those are both big franchises. Also Nintendo has a habit of delaying games that aren't up to snuff until they are perfect so I doubt we will get brawl till like 2008 but I've been wrong before.

 

[Wiseguy]

Your not going to let this go, are you?

Am I speaking Chinese? I'm not talking about clones at all, I'm talking about how Twili Midna getting in without Midna will never happen in a billion years. Anybody that thinks it will is ********. The fact that you have to say Twili Midna just so people know which one you're talking about proves that that's not her most recognizable form. All I have to say is Midna & people know I mean the imp Midna. I don't have to call Mario Plumber Mario, I just say Mario & people know who I mean. But if I wanted to talk about any other version of Mario, I couldn't just say Mario or people wouldn't be sure who I was talking about.

I'll try to explain this in the simplest possible terms.

I don't know anything you don't. I'm just making educated guesses based on the available facts. Let's look at those facts.

Ganondorf was included as a Captain Falcon clone in Melee. This made no sense, given that the two charcaters have nothing in common other than that they are roughly the same size and shape, but including the character was so important and time was so valuable that Sakuarai chose to include him as a clone rather than not at all.

I don't know whether Midna will be included or not. All I'm saying is that Sakuarai may be forced to make a similar decision and include Minda as a clone rather than not at all. It's just a guess. Don't bite my head off.

Well, you didn't do a very good job.

I know you are but what am I?

So why isn't it just speculation when you do it?

I'm "speculating" that clones take less time to program than charcaters with original movesets. Pretty far fetched I know, I have this hunch...

Okay, you're right... They're not adding Link either, but they're still going to add Wolf Link as a clone of Wolf from Star Fox.

Unlike Link and Mario, Midna is has only one game under her belt and is not guaranteed to appear. Therefore, it is not a stretch to assume that she could possibly be included in her more clonable form. But again, I'm JUST guessing.

What does that have to do with anything?

Her imporatnce has to do whether she is worth the time consuming process of designing a unique moveset.

Black Mage

And if you want to talk about clear representatives, Final Fantasy is the clear representative of SE, not Kingdom Hearts.

Black Mage didn't appear on Sakuarai's poll. And you might like Final Fantasy best, but in Japan other series like Dragon Quest are more popular.

They can't add Sora anyway, it would be too time consuming. But they're still going to add Crossdresser Sora, who has never appeared in any game, because he can be a clone of Peach.

Sora represents an entire game series. Midna is a supporting charcater in a series already represented. Get over yourself.

No they wouldn't.

Says you.

She's also the same as Sheik in that they didn't say, "Zelda is taking too long to make. Let's add Sheik as a clone of somebody to save time, & leave Zelda out completely which will make no sense at all."

No, they decided to clone Ganondorf instead.

What?

*Sigh*. In my original post. I said that since Twilight Princess was not released until Brawl was already in development, she was probably not part of Sakurai's original plan. That's why all things aren't equal and he may have to put in Midna as a clone if at all.

That's not true. If they wanted it out ASAP don't you think it could be out by now? They've been making it since 2005. It's pretty obvious they want to take their time on it.

As soon as POSSIBLE. That doesn't mean now, it as soon as they can get the game finished. That means including clones if it will allow them to realease it by the holiday rush.

Oh yeah, and instead of adding Midna or Twili Midna they're going to add that spirit looking form Midna takes outside of the Twilight realm as a clone of Boo from Mario Bros.

Now THATS an idea...

@ Numa Dude: you make an excellent point. Mario and Metroid are also being released this year. But with heavy hitters like Halo 3 and GTA 4 on the horizon, Nintendo could really use 3 big releases this year.

 

[Red Exodus]

Ok I feel I just HAVE to say this. I remember seeing something on that Sakurai translation thread about only having 2-3 third party characters, so you can throw out some of those third parties. And as far as I know Sora was never on a Nintendo console, unless you count the GBA KH.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Man, I haven't been this entertained since...well, I've never been this entertained, actually.

"Ganon's SUPPOSEDLY curled hair"? It's a fact: the man has a killer fashion sense.

 

[Wiseguy]

Ok I feel I just HAVE to say this. I remember seeing something on that Sakurai translation thread about only having 2-3 third party characters, so you can throw out some of those third parties. And as far as I know Sora was never on a Nintendo console, unless you count the GBA KH.

You are correct, Sakurai did say that. My decision to include six third party characters is a bit optimistic, to be sure, but I wouldn't say its outside the realm of possibility.
Also, I do count KH: Chains of Memories.

 

[Stryks]

I gotta say this, tough I doubt it will make a diference...

Sakurai said: "... and when talking 3rd party characters, ill add 2-3 characters?..."

He said is a question, so he doesnt know exactly how many, maybe 2-3, maybe more maybe less... I think this same thing was placed in the translation in smashwiki or some smash related page her in SWF, u know that page where they put the smashcast, that one ...