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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
Well, since it's not clear either way, and because of the things that usually go down in friendlies (if there's nothing on the line, you're going to do crazier things than in tourneys, etc...), I personally wouldn't consider this.
I heard from someone a LONG time ago that Reflex got to beat M2K in a friendly once... Doesn't mean that PT is better than other characters M2K hasn't lost to.
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
obviously.
i'm not arguing that him beating AZ makes ganon a better character, i know he sucks.
but i am saying that fonz could be on an even playing field with AZ skill wise.
Ah yeah, I can agree with that. I don't know much about Fonz, but AZ's characters' tools might make him look like he's a LOT more skilled than Fonz, where they probably are pretty even skill-wise.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2008
- Messages
- 3,432
In case you are wondering:
MK: 25-75
Snake: 30-70
Mr. Gay and Watch: 25-75
Wario: 40-60
Falco: 40-60
Diddy: 40-60
Marth: 35-65
Pika: 45-55
DDD: 55-45
IC: 60-40
Olimar: 35-65
ZSS: 40-60
Ness/Lucas: 50-50
Yeah, she gets ***** by MK and Snake ;-; Although I dont tihnk MK is that bad. IMO MK and Snake are both 35-65, but we had very intelligent discussion over those two matchups. Better underrate than overrate imo to a certain extent. Makes you more prepared and less layedback. Good thing they have downb though, which is why Zelda/Sheik is too good :x.
This is from what we have rediscussed so far. The ratios look bad, but:
1) Shes low tier. She's suppose to be disadvantaged
2) At least she has advantages/winnable mathups pretty much across the board after MK and Snake. Minus Olimar, who isnt that popular anyway, and Mr. Gaw (again, Sheik handles this).
Im curious to see what someone else posted....
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
question, why don't we just use a matchup based tier list like all other communities?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Isn't there a certain community where the #2 has no disadvantaged matchups, while the #1 spot does?
Also I feel if it was matchup based, it needs to be weighted. Having a matchup that is good against a more popular character / character with a lot of advantageous matchups would matter more then a less popular character / character with a lot of disadvantageous matchups.
Also I feel if it was matchup based, it needs to be weighted. Having a matchup that is good against a more popular character / character with a lot of advantageous matchups would matter more then a less popular character / character with a lot of disadvantageous matchups.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Because matchups are very difficult to pin down correctly due to bias. It's also really hard to weigh stage advantages and other factors that most other fighter games don't have.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Yes, this is Blazblue. But if you look at the chart, you see that the number 1 charecter actually scores higher, despite lossing to the second best character.
As for weighted, that would favor our community more, since our metagame revolves more around top tier than other fighting games.
I don't see that as the case in the DDD boards, though we are very reluctant to change our numbers in case someone is proved wrong, such as Seibrik and Co18's current opinion on the Wario matchup being 60-40 or 65-35 in DDDs favor.
The matchup should be the ability to win a set, not a single match.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
It would absolutely need to be weighted for it to work. I still don't think matchups are sound enough in this game to base the tier list off of, atleast not yet.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Best you can get is the 2nd image of this thread. Which is exactly what we are discussing. xD
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315
Oh, and expect Snake to rise soon. We're redoing our matchups, and being a lot more honest this time around. <_<
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315
Oh, and expect Snake to rise soon. We're redoing our matchups, and being a lot more honest this time around. <_<
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Wait, did you guys make it seem like had worse matchups than you actually did on purpose?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Many people simply agreed with my ratios, and I had Falcon as a 55-45.....Snake's favor....as an example of being to kind...
:|
I was far to kind with my ratios...we easily 65-35 Falcon (give or take 5 points either way I guess? 5 bs points dont matter much lol)
:|
I was far to kind with my ratios...we easily 65-35 Falcon (give or take 5 points either way I guess? 5 bs points dont matter much lol)
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
I only really see Snake as having DDD and Olimar as disadvantages personally.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Olimar is even. 55-45 Olimar at worst. I had it as like 65-35 or 60-40 Olimar... I've been told its 50:50, I've seen a few matches of how it's played, and I'm finally starting to learn the matchup.
But I agree. At worst we only have DDD and Olimar as disadvantages. And at that, it's small.
(Of course, I'm not even considering MK in this. xD)
But I agree. At worst we only have DDD and Olimar as disadvantages. And at that, it's small.
(Of course, I'm not even considering MK in this. xD)
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
So you think Mew2King just plays the matchup wrong Susa?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
No, I was just stating that I didn't consider MK as a disadvantaged matchup because... everyone has a disadvantaged matchup towards him. <_<
Also we'll see... I'm working (with the snake boards) on some in depth stuff to try and better the matchup for us. Check the Snake boards for more.
/assuming you are talking about M2K playing MK
Also we'll see... I'm working (with the snake boards) on some in depth stuff to try and better the matchup for us. Check the Snake boards for more.
/assuming you are talking about M2K playing MK
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I was. Has Mew2King played Snake with his DDD yet?
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Either not for a very, very, very long time. Or no.
That's why I assumed MK.
That's why I assumed MK.
Lucas 60-40's Zelda. Did someone forget about PSI Magnet?
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
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- 3,432
That was a bit snotty dude. No, nobody cares about Dins anyway. It sucks. Lucas cant approach Zelda safely and cant camp her very easily due to NL actually being a good defence against PK Fire unlike most projectiles. She is also not as threatened in the air against Lucas, because his aerials dont combo well and dont kill. Lucas as a blind spot below him against Zelda's uair. Lucas is really vulnerable when recovering with PKT because it makes him semi stationary, and is perfect for LK or *gasp* Dins spam. Did you know that if predicted Dins can cancel out PKT if it doesnt hit his body? Zelda's isnt going to Dins when its obviously going to get absorbed, use it when its a guarantee hit.
And if Zelda thinks either EB kid is going to absorb Din's fire, she'll just miss on purpose and explode it somewhere far from them.
Why would lucas be approaching Zelda? Also NL doesn't do anything more than act as a shield since the PKF will most likely disappear before it gets near lucas. Zelda can't do anything to lucas offstage. Dins gets Absorbed and Tether says hi. Not to mention Zelda offstage isn't very good.
Lucas has the same thing going against him. No projectile use since NL reflects them all and she can move again before you get close, he can't do anything against her offstage either since she will be recovering high as well as use NL to reflect your projectiles (and aerial you if you get too close), and she has no need to approach Lucas on-stage if she has the advantage.
Point? It sounds like 50:50 to me.
Why would a lucas approach a Zelda when he knows how horrible zeldas approach game is? Even if hes not getting damage.
Offstage he has PKT, even if Zelda NLs it she's gonna get herself killed in the process since NL lasts long.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Why would a Zelda approach Lucas if she knows Lucas has no safe approach against her? Even if she's not getting d...
Wait a second, that sounds pretty even.
Wait a second, that sounds pretty even.
So, if Ness/Lucas are offstage, Zelda can use Din's Fire to bait an airdodge and force you to fall even lower, or force you do use downB to absorb it, which would also send you lower... And probably even miss the din's on purpose just to make you fall, and you'll HAVE to do either of those or get hit by Din's fire.
What's your point?
They can easily DJ to get back on.
Lucas can't approach Zelda safely, Zelda can't approach lucas safely and neither can camp the other so one is going to have to appraoch. Also tell me how Zelda will beat out lucas' approaches.
EDIT: Just read in an old matchup discussion that Lucas' Dair goes through her Usmash. Ahhh so now lucas can safely approach zelda.....................
DJ while Zelda hits him with Din's fire and gets free damage on you.
Approach, or camp it out and see who gets the first hit. So, whoever gets the first hit stays defensive and maintains the lead theoretically, sounds 50:50 to me.
Hmm... This bit is interesting, seeing as:
Zelda is a defensive character, she beats out your approach by just being... Zelda. Lots of her attacks punish people who try approaching if they simply suck at approaching safely.
Yes, because Zelda will always be below you usmashing you, when it's obvious you might dair her and beat it out... What would you do if she just got out of the way and baired you for trying a dair?
Deoxyribonucleic_acid
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2009
- Messages
- 58
When did people suddenly stop thinking MK isn't that good anymore?
Was I gone for that long?
meta master
Smash Journeyman
I agree. Last I was on (it waaassss a while ago...) The top were MK, DDD, Snake, and Diddie.
lolwut? Zelda's grab sucks not to mention lucas' Dair autocancels. Moving out of the way won't work. Its not as simple as that.
@Kewkky: That sounds ridiculous. Good look pulling that off in an actual match.
My thoughts exactly.
It's not like Lucas' dair can't be seen a mile away, and if he uses it close to the ground he gets landing lag and Zelda won't be getting thrown anywhere because you didn't hit her with the hitbox that matters... Zelda's bair is A BAJILLION times easier to hit a Lucas with, than the chances Lucas has to hit Zelda with the good hitbox of his dair while she usmashes his landing.
Oh, and, Zelda's won't be throwing in random usmashes. They use it to punish LANDINGS and dodges, they don't use it where you might have enough time to retaliate... And yeah, I forgot about jump-cancelled usmashes. Zelda can do one of those by shielding your dair, and you have no choice but to eat it since once you hit her shield, the deal's made.
It autocancels. If you try one of those your going to hit a shield or get jabbed.
How will Zelda will turn around then jump and use a Bair before lucas hits her with Dair.
@Kewkky: ............... Any good lucas will always autocancel Dair. No, lucas' dair is over 1,000 times easier to hit with than Zelda's Dair, not to mention way better.
My point is that Zelda can't do anything to stop Lucas' dair.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
So moving out of the way and D-tilting you on your fall because she outranges you is not practical anymore ?
zeldspazz
Smash Master
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- Dec 29, 2008
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Dsmash comes out in frame 4. Im pretty sure Lucas's dair has more landing lag than that.
Who says we have to turn around. Bair comes out in frame 5 and isnt that hard to sweetspot. Since Zelda will be on the side of Lucas, Zelda wont get hit.
I love this color ^^
So, if Zelda shields your dair hitboxes and starts her lightning-fast usmash when you're touching the floor and getting a couple of frames of lag, you're somehow going to find the time to shield the attacks and/or jab Zelda? Do you even know the purpose of OoS jump-cancelled usmashes? They're for when you hit her shield, she can react before you have the time to do anything and punish you for that.
so, while you're looking at her from real high, before she does her usmash, you know if she's going to usmash or not? If you start a dair, she will run to any side and aim a bair on you. If you don't start the dair, she'dd usmash you. IF you hit her with a dair while she's usmashing you (because you started it at the last possible moment), then once you touch the floor it won't autocancel and you'll have ugly landing lag, which she can abuse and punish you with anything.
Edit: Chu, it's 50:50, don't deny it. This is a thread for the future tier list, not an MU discussion between Zelda and Lucas. If you REALLY want to discuss it, take it up on the respective character board (Zelda's if you're so confident).
Autcancel means it has 0 landing lag. You'll have to wait for shieldstun to end drop shield(7 frames) and then Dsmash (4 frames). How will that hit when shield is 2 frames?
Because thats way too predictable.
@Kewkky: Thats why lucas initiates the Dair ASAP when he jumps. Oh, fine i'll stop but your still forgetting Zelda offstage.