Powershielding, DI, SHFFLing, etc.

[Rapid_Assassin]

People seem obsessed with whether or not wavedashing will make its return in Brawl. How about the other advanced techniques, though? I'm curious to see if powershielding, DI, SHFFLing, DJC (for the characters that have it, of course), and all the other advanced techniques that are hardly mentioned in Brawl discussions will return.

Discuss.

 

[maxpower1227]

I don't really like powershielding either. It's something I NEVER see human players do, so it seems like something they just threw in to artificially make the computer players tougher. I'd prefer for them to remove powershielding (a move that also makes no sense) and replace it with vastly improved AI.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

You've obviously never played vs. me as Samus, or you wouldn't say that about powershielding. Ask any Samus in the New England area about my powershielding. Or Spawn, for that matter... >_>

 

[maxpower1227]

Well, my other points remain valid, particularly about the computer AI.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Yes, the AI sucks. But I really don't care, because sucky AI is fun to laugh at. Plus, I'm mostly going to be playing vs. humans anyway, because even if they improve the AI, it'll still end up being bad once I get good enough at the game.

 

[THK]

I think all of those will remain actually. The powershielding is a tad irritating cause my main opponent does it a lot. But yeah, those should all be there.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Powershielding is important, it's a way to counter SHLing, I just wish I could do it (maybe they could open the frames up just a bit).

If DI isn't in the game, then... we'll someone will get hurt.

 

[THK]

Powershielding is important, it's a way to counter SHLing, I just wish I could do it (maybe they could open the frames up just a bit).

If DI isn't in the game, then... we'll someone will get hurt.

Why wouldn't it? The SSB series seem to run the platforming basics in that. If you move the control that way, you'll tend to move that way.

If not, well Brawl seems to have more knockback which would probably make it easier to get away from combo traps and the likes of chain grabbing (if it's still there).

 

[Superstar]

The advanced techs must stay. They add more flavor to the game, its a way to reward players willing to learn it, and add factors to the game that increases the skill peak. When I say they must stay, that includes wavedash, which in that while it is incredibly easy to learn, its difficult to successfully utilize.

All the advanced Techs combined make the game more thrilling competitively.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Whew so much techniques, I think Powershielding should stay since it does take some timing to pull off and is faster than.. catching and throwing it back. DI will stay in by default. and SHFFLing.. is a tough one.. It's used a lot and is crucial to fast aerial attacks.. It might get changed a bit, but it will stay in mostly.

 

[Gannondorf the fifth]

People seem obsessed with whether or not wavedashing will make its return in Brawl. How about the other advanced techniques, though? I'm curious to see if powershielding, DI, SHFFLing, DJC (for the characters that have it, of course), and all the other advanced techniques that are hardly mentioned in Brawl discussions will return.

Discuss.

I'm scared to balls what nintendo might take out. Honestly, i don't doubt their ability to make an even better smash but I hope, like melee, they make the game more favorable towards those who put more time and effort into the game to make themselves better at it and not "i'm a noob and can pick up a controller and get lucky against you). That would piss the balls outta me. Anyways, L-canceling, powershielding, shuffling, quick falling, teching, crouch canceling, all that shiza just HAS to stay in. You can almost assume they'll keep wavedashing because they intentionally left it in melee knowing full well about the physics of dodging into the ground causes you to move quickly and opens new doors. All the crybabies that don't play the game a lot are like "start over fresh, don't give any advantages and make this game over" Eliminate tiers (honestly, i'd love it if every character has SOMETHING that can keep them from even having a tier possibility) If bowser can stand up to fox in this game, rightfully, both in the hands of experts, then hal laboritories has truely went above and beyond my expectations even without knowing musical scores, levels, story lines and other characters. In my opinion, the game couldn't get better. period.

 

[Eaode]

Well, shorthopping is intentional in both games, and is 99.9% likely to remain IMO. Fastfalling is in both games and an integral part of the air game, which Sakurai seems to be emphasising. And L-cancelling, which might have been a glitch in SSB64, was tweaked and kept intentionally in Melee.

And aerial attacks are garanteed to be there.

So in all likelihod, SHFFLing won't go anywhere.


As for DI, well, if that were taken out then the noobs would get even angrier because we could pull off any random combo 100% of the time with no other factors involved. 0-deaths would pop up everywhere, and overall it'd be a step backward. I'll say DI is bound to remain.



As for powershielding, I don't really care either way. I don't see a reason to take it out.

 

[WhiteZER0]

My opinion: people shouldn't invest so much time in a video game. There are much more enjoyable things to do in life, these games, be good or bad (but my opinion is that Brawl will be SOOO much more awesome than Melee, bloody advanced techniques or not ((they can burn for all I care XD)) are for fun, not to make something like a career out of it. No offence to all the hardcore gamers, but anyone who would fly to another town just to go to a tournament, really NEEDS to sit down and look at their life, and not invest so much OF their life into a game.

Just an opinion though, the ADV. TECH's can rot in... a place where things rot, for all I care XD

 

[maxpower1227]

Eh, I don't feel THAT strongly about the advanced techs, but I'm right with you on your other point. I've played this game a lot.. and I mean a LOT.. over the years, but I'm starting to have to devote my time to more important things.

And you're right, Brawl will packed full of so much awesomosity it will be ridiculous.

 

[Klowne]

It'd be nice if they made the CPUs more realistic in terms of advanced techs. Right now, you can't use ANY attack with more than one hit because of their rediculous smash DI. You can't use projectiles because of automatic power shielding.

I think they should just do away with the 'power shielding' of physical attacks (the white flash thing), because it's simply NOT POSSIBLE for a human to incorporate into their gameplay. The ONLY reason this 'hack block' is in the game is for computers to have a ********, unrealistic advantage over players.

In conclusion: if your computers suck and you don't know how to improve them, just leave them easy instead of making attacks randomly bounce off them, K thanks.

 

[Linari Sabre]

I agree with klowne, ^
On the terms of the cpus.

As for the other things they are most likely to go because of more incorporate air battle almost for sure they're gonna figure something for that. Adding more or new adv. techs

 

[Pr0g]

My opinion: people shouldn't invest so much time in a video game. There are much more enjoyable things to do in life, these games, be good or bad (but my opinion is that Brawl will be SOOO much more awesome than Melee, bloody advanced techniques or not ((they can burn for all I care XD)) are for fun, not to make something like a career out of it. No offence to all the hardcore gamers, but anyone who would fly to another town just to go to a tournament, really NEEDS to sit down and look at their life, and not invest so much OF their life into a game.

Just an opinion though, the ADV. TECH's can rot in... a place where things rot, for all I care XD

Why shouldn't people play Melee or Brawl, for that matter, professionally? It's like saying people who devote 12 hours a day training to be a professional javelin thrower are wasting their lives on one thing.

It's a completely hypocritical way of looking at things. You can't say one form of physical activity is more worthy of being professional at than any other. And yes, I do consider playing Melee a physical activity. It requires immense concentration, quick reflexes and the ability to out mind game your opponent by knowing what he'll do next and countering it. It's not meant to be played by mindless brutes who think they can button mash and expect to get a complicated and technical combo out of it.

 

[Takeshi245]

I agree with klowne, ^
On the terms of the cpus.

As for the other things they are most likely to go because of more incorporate air battle almost for sure they're gonna figure something for that. Adding more or new adv. techs

They might add on some new advanced techniques. They've done it before. They can do it again while keeping all of the advanced techniques in Melee intact as well.

 

[Pr0g]

I don't really like powershielding either. It's something I NEVER see human players do, so it seems like something they just threw in to artificially make the computer players tougher. I'd prefer for them to remove powershielding (a move that also makes no sense) and replace it with vastly improved AI.

You NEVER see human players do it? You must not watch any pro videos then. Powershielding shuts down SHL and Samus' missiles.

 

[Takeshi245]

Why shouldn't people play Melee or Brawl, for that matter, professionally? It's like saying people who devote 12 hours a day training to be a professional javelin thrower are wasting their lives on one thing.

It's a completely hypocritical way of looking at things. You can't say one form of physical activity is more worthy of being professional at than any other. And yes, I do consider playing Melee a physical activity. It requires immense concentration, quick reflexes and the ability to out mind game your opponent by knowing what he'll do next and countering it. It's not meant to be played by mindless brutes who think they can button mash and expect to get a complicated and technical combo out of it.

Nice logical explanation. The fun thing about Melee is that it can be played casually and professionally. That's why the game is so good. It's easy to pick up and play, but it is difficult to master as well with all of the advanced techniques. I'm not saying that everyone should play professionally nor do I mind when people like casual play. I don't mind playing with items every once in a while. People CAN have a social life playing a game professionally, you know. It's all about balance.

 

[slikvik]

I don't really like powershielding either. It's something I NEVER see human players do, so it seems like something they just threw in to artificially make the computer players tougher. I'd prefer for them to remove powershielding (a move that also makes no sense) and replace it with vastly improved AI.

lol, i powershield. ive seen other HUMAN players powershield too. How bout they just remove all the techniques you cant do

 

[Pr0g]

Nice logical explanation. The fun thing about Melee is that it can be played casually and professionally. That's why the game is so good. It's easy to pick up and play, but it is difficult to master as well with all of the advanced techniques. I'm not saying that everyone should play professionally nor do I mind when people like casual play. I don't mind playing with items every once in a while. People CAN have a social life playing a game professionally, you know. It's all about balance.

Exactly. I have no problem with people playing it casually. But to assume that people who play it professionally have no lives is just completely ********. The two best players in Canada, Vwins and Bam, play at such a ridiculous level, but they're still extremely chill dudes. Just because you're professional at something, doesn't mean your entire life revolves around that one thing.

For instance. I play Melee (not professionally, but still at a relatively decent level), compose and play music daily, go to school, work and read a book a week.

Human beings are capable of incorporating multiple activities into their lives and be good at all of them. It's just a matter of how you organize your time.

 

[Takeshi245]

Exactly. I have no problem with people playing it casually. But to assume that people who play it professionally have no lives is just completely ********. The two best players in Canada, Vwins and Bam, play at such a ridiculous level, but they're still extremely chill dudes. Just because you're professional at something, doesn't mean your entire life revolves around that one thing.

For instance. I play Melee (not professionally, but still at a relatively decent level), compose and play music daily, go to school, work and read a book a week.

Human beings are capable of incorporating multiple activities into their lives and be good at all of them. It's just a matter of how you organize your time.

My point exactly.

 

[Pye]

I agree with Takeshi245 and Pr0g. What's wrong with beeing a professional gamer? If you are a professional gamer, more power to you! You're making money doing something you love to do, and as far as I'm concerned, that's success in life, not a problem with it.

As far as the thread topic is conerned, the reason I would like wavedashing to return is because I never played SSB64. The only Smash Bros game I played extensively has wavedashing, so now I'm more or less dependant on it. I can't imagine having to ground-cancel shines instead of jump canceling them.

That's not to say I don't want shffling/powershielding/DJCing/etc not to return. The one thing I DO want to return over anything else (even wavedashing) is DI. I think the way DI works in SSBM is absolutely ingenious, and gives Melee a huge extra dimention of depth to it. Watch the "mindgames combo" video on youtube, the first clip between Ganon and Marth, to see how deep SSBM gets thanks to DI.

Removing DI would be silly, since there's absolutely no con to having it; just a ton of pros (no pun intended). Casual players don't have to use it. In fact, they can be completely oblivious to it and still play and love the game. However, players who like to go deeper into the game can use it to escape combos and survive longer. Nobody loses out (except perhaps the casual player dying at 90% to fsmashes, playing against a more compeditive gamer who's surviving at 130%).

 

[Linari Sabre]

If people are saying to you that too much video games ruin your brain they are absolutely wrong ,check out our posts and our logic. many ppl have lives from the looks of it and are smart too

 

[Pr0g]

Well.. Video games may ruin the eyes, at most, but in terms of the brain? I highly doubt it. Video games tap into parts of our brains that no other form of stimuli can. It heightens certain perceptions of reality and allows us to act primarily instinctively in the sense that you're not always thinking about what you have to do in the video game, but you just do the right thing anyway because you KNOW it's the right thing to do.

It also tunes peoples reflexes to new degrees of competence.

 

[THK]

I think they should just do away with the 'power shielding' of physical attacks (the white flash thing), because it's simply NOT POSSIBLE for a human to incorporate into their gameplay. The ONLY reason this 'hack block' is in the game is for computers to have a ********, unrealistic advantage over players.

Wrong.

I've seen many a human intentionally pull off powershielding. My friend does it exceptionally well.

 

[maxpower1227]

It'd be nice if they made the CPUs more realistic in terms of advanced techs. Right now, you can't use ANY attack with more than one hit because of their rediculous smash DI. You can't use projectiles because of automatic power shielding.

I think they should just do away with the 'power shielding' of physical attacks (the white flash thing), because it's simply NOT POSSIBLE for a human to incorporate into their gameplay. The ONLY reason this 'hack block' is in the game is for computers to have a ********, unrealistic advantage over players.

In conclusion: if your computers suck and you don't know how to improve them, just leave them easy instead of making attacks randomly bounce off them, K thanks.

That was exactly my point about power shielding.

And, ok, some people here know humans who can power shield. That's not surprising on a board such as this. But what percentage of people who play Smash can do it? I'd wager it's EXTREMELY low. It's mostly a way to cheaply and artificially make computers tougher in the absence of better AI.

 

[Pr0g]

Extremely low percentage? You're quite wrong, as usual.

 

[maxpower1227]

Care to elaborate on that?

There are millions of people who play SSBM. What percentage of them do YOU think are proficient at power shielding?

 

[Pr0g]

I wouldn't know. But I'm also not presumptions enough to suggest that the percentage is in fact extremely low.

 

[Takeshi245]

I wouldn't know. But I'm also not presumptions enough to suggest that the percentage is in fact extremely low.

Same here as well.

 

[THK]

That was exactly my point about power shielding.

And, ok, some people here know humans who can power shield. That's not surprising on a board such as this. But what percentage of people who play Smash can do it? I'd wager it's EXTREMELY low. It's mostly a way to cheaply and artificially make computers tougher in the absence of better AI.

Yes I do agree it's sort of a way to boost AI toughness. But the majority of all fighters do this.

Many 3D fighters have AI opponents have higher damage mods than you. Others use "psychic" AI to predict what you're going to do and respond to it.

And as for a percentage of Smash players that can actually do it. I'd say it's pretty low, but why remove it? If anything the timing needs to be fixed, but at the same time I don't want it to become a SF3 style parry fest.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Well, it is an extremely low percentage, if you consider the number of people who are casual players vs. the number of people that go to tournaments...

In any case, yes there are people that can powershield intentionally, both projectiles and physical attacks. I'm one of them... If you don't believe me, look up me vs. any Samus. Here's one that's kind of old, but i powershielded both attacks and missiles in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cydgS56w_c8&feature=PlayList&p=64C4E6E952838B07&index=1

 

[maxpower1227]

I wouldn't know. But I'm also not presumptions enough to suggest that the percentage is in fact extremely low.

Notice how I said "I'd wager...", while you just flat out stated that I was wrong, as if it were a fact.

Who's presumptuous?

And it seems people tend to agree with me. Huh.

 

[Takeshi245]

Well, it is an extremely low percentage, if you consider the number of people who are casual players vs. the number of people that go to tournaments...

In any case, yes there are people that can powershield intentionally, both projectiles and physical attacks. I'm one of them... If you don't believe me, look up me vs. any Samus. Here's one that's kind of old, but i powershielded both attacks and missiles in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cydgS56w_c8&feature=PlayList&p=64C4E6E952838B07&index=1

This at least shows how powershielding is useful. I argee with THK with making powershielding easier to do, but not so much as to make it a walk in the park.

 

[Takeshi245]

This better not develop into yet another flame war.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'd say powershielding should have the same difficulty. If it were too easy, any idiot would be able to do it, and characters like Samus and Falco would be almost useless...

 

[maxpower1227]

I'd say powershielding should have the same difficulty. If it were too easy, any idiot would be able to do it, and characters like Samus and Falco would be almost useless...

Not to mention characters who have actual reflecting moves (Fox, Falco, the Marios, Zelda) would seem cheapened in a way.

And yes, I'm aware that Fox's reflector and the power shield are NOT the same thing at all, but I just liked it better when only certain characters would reflect projectiles. At least it makes sense when Fox or Mario does it.

 

[Takeshi245]

I'd say powershielding should have the same difficulty. If it were too easy, any idiot would be able to do it, and characters like Samus and Falco would be almost useless...

And the game would lose some depth as well, but not all of it.