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Power Without Rival? A Comprehensive Meta Knight Guide by Detta [WIP]

dettadeus

Smash Lord
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Table of Contents:​
-Move Analysis-​
-Combo Analysis- (Coming Soon)​
-Advanced Techniques- (Coming Soon)​
-How to make Victory your Destiny- (Coming Soon)​
-Matchup Analysis- (Coming Soon)​


Move Analysis:

-Jab: Not terrible, but not good either. There are usually better options in almost every situation, but it's generally not punishable on hit. Can knock down opponents.

-Ftilt: Godlike. Super fast (frame 4), three hits, 12% unstaled. Pretend that this is your jab. Ftilt1 combos into a lot of things, and the hits can be delayed a long time to mix up on shield or on hit to stuff punishes. Also amazing for spacing, especially in the ditto. I'll get into specific combos in the combos section.
-Dtilt: Godlike. Quick (frame 6), at maximum range it pokes, at point blank it pops up for combos. Has pretty good IASA so it's good for poking in techchases to cover tech in place and missed tech (best to get close up and try to hit with the hilt).
-Utilt: Meh. It's not terrible and it still combos into things on hit, but the range is pretty lackluster compared to many of his other moves (horizontally, at least), and there are almost always better options to use.

-Dash Attack: Awkward. It can combo into stuff and it's pretty fast, but there are usually better options. The main reason I give it an "Awkward" rating is because it's his only move that clanks with other hitboxes, and it has the ability to clank with aerials, something no other character can boast.

-Fsmash: Good. Kills very early and hits shields hard too, and has deceptive range.
-Dsmash: Godlike. First hit comes out obscenely quickly (frame 4), both hits have fairly good kill potential and range. Very good for edgeguarding since it hits as low as Dtilt but much harder.
-Usmash: Terrible. I won't even sugarcoat this, the move is garbage and there are always better options. SH Uair covers the same range, combos/sets up better, and is less punishable on whiff. It could maybe be used as a last-ditch vertical kill move, but Grounded Shuttle Loop would still kill way earlier.

-Nair: Godlike. It kills, it combos, it gimps, it approaches. This is easily one of his best moves overall. Use it often at lower percents, but once they're around 60-70 save it for kills or gimps (DJ Nair underneath an opponent and space it so the weak hitbox connects; if you don't jump first, I guarantee you will die in basically every edgeguarding situation).
-Fair: Very Good. That is to say, the first two hits are very good. The last hit is lackluster compared to what the first two hits offer when lcancelled. Since they barely pop the opponent up and the move has very little landlag, this move combos into basically MK's entire moveset (not including obvious exceptions like Fsmash). The last hit isn't really good for anything since it never kills. Has very good range and is useful if you're trying to space your opponent out, but Nair is a better approach overall.
-Bair: Good. It's job is to provide a way to hit behind you in the air as well as a second aerial kill option (with more range) if Nair is staled, and it does this job well. However, it doesn't really do much else. It's slow and hits too hard to combo into stuff after like 20% (although if you hit with it around 0-10 it combos into basically everything).
-Uair: Godlike. It combos, it juggles, it sets up, it's a good OoS option (IMO MK's best outside of situational GSL OoS). It has a deceptive amount of horizontal range and comes out quickly.
-Dair: Not quite terrible. It's better than Usmash in that it at least combos somewhat reliably on-hit and ledge-cancels very well, but it's definitely not all it's hyped up to be. It can also be useful for getting out of juggles and... dragging your opponent down with you for a suicide kill. The biggest problem with this move is that you have very little control over it once you start it. For a character who focuses on harassing people in the air, a move that you can't control (aside from the angle) and which forces you onto the ground regardless of hitting or missing isn't exactly good design, despite being a nice reference to his canon appearances. Definitely his worst aerial and one of his worst moves overall.

-Fthrow: Bad. It's not really his worst throw since it's fast and can catch people who survival DI and provide heavy punishes (Nair), but there's almost always a better option.
-Bthrow: Good. It can get people offstage, and provides a techchase mixup with Dthrow.
-Uthrow: Terrible. You can't get any followups if your opponent has a reaction time of under two seconds and knows to DI away. Never use this move. Please.
-Dthrow: Godlike. This is Sheik's Dthrow on a faster character with more range. If they DI towards you you can regrab, if they DI away it's a techchase. MK is fast enough to cover basically everything on reaction if you run towards your opponent immediately (you should always do this after a Dthrow, no matter what). Tech in place? Regrab. Tech away? Keep running and regrab. Tech towards? Wavedash back, dash, regrab. Miss the tech? Dtilt/Ftilt. Is your opponent above 100? Instant DC whatever tech option they choose. They just died.

-Nspecial: Good. This is basically designed to gimp spacies. It catches their recoveries and sends them at a downward angle for further edgeguarding. It's also good vertical recovery if you're at a bad angle for Shuttle Loop.
-Sspecial: Good. Only use this for recovery and ledgestalling. Although it can combo in some circumstances, you're better off with something else in any given situation. Ledgecancel it if you wanna look fancy.
-Uspecial: Amazing. This move does a lot of things, and it does them well. It's MK's best recovery move if he's above the level of the stage, and I recommend starting it early and away from the stage to build up a lot of glide time. It ledge cancels on all sorts of things on its own, and Glide Attack can help ledge cancelling once you're in the glide. You can grab the ledge while gliding if you're moving downward as well. It's also a good vertical kill move (basically MK's only one), and a good OoS option if you're in the right place under a platform so you can ledge cancel it. Pretty much all of MK's advanced techniques stem from Shuttle Loop's various properties.
-Dspecial: Godlike. This is another one of MK's moves which is hyped up a lot, but for the wrong reasons. While it can be used for mindgaming or getting one last aerial in in a combo (which it can't actually because there's way too much startup and endlag before the aerial even comes out to combo into anything), it's most useful when the slash is used immediately. This turns Dimensional Cape into a frame 7 flashstep that teleports MK three character lengths away and kills obscenely early, easily catching bad DI, punishing misspaced moves, and shredding techchase options.

Rest coming soon. Hopefully I'll finish everything important before X and Y come out.
 

dettadeus

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Upsmash is a godsend vs spacies and other fastfallers.
And yet SH Uair has better followups at a larger range of percents, is harder to punish on whiff, and has about the same startup and range.

It's just not worth using Usmash when another move does everything better.
 

Oro?!

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I would love to see some video proof of sh uair being effective vs a grounded spacie, or perhaps sh uair effectively comboing at earlier %s than upsmash can.
 

dettadeus

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I would love to see some video proof of sh uair being effective vs a grounded spacie, or perhaps sh uair effectively comboing at earlier %s than upsmash can.
I'd like to see some video proof of people who know how to actually SDI Usmash, but alas, nobody seems to.
I'll try to get vids of me vs spacies players in my region at my next tournament.
 

Lawn Chair

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Nspecial is definitely Meta Knight's best recovery option, his Sspecial has no vertical mobility his Uspecial is okay but I perfer Nspecial about 90% of the time
 

Run DMX

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I've discovered that a great use for MK's dair is to use it like a Falcon player would use his. You know, by predicting which way the opponent will tech, and if you're correct, then they'll bounce up for a combo. If you're wrong, no punish. Other than that, I agree. Dair is an awkward move.
 

Lawn Chair

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I showed Detta a thing or two when we got to play at Apex, Usmash and dair are good moves MK has no bad moves
 

Mera Mera

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that stale moves does not affect knockback in Melee or PM (only damage), so there should be no reason to try to "save up" nair.

Like in brawl I think knocback is: base_knockback + knockback_growth * percent_damage_done / enemy_weight
And in Melee and PM knockback is: base_knockback + knockback_growth * percent_damage_move_does_before_applying_stale_moves / enemy_weight

I really might be wrong on this, since I don't remember where I read this... sorry if I'm crazy here :p
 
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Lawn Chair

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that stale moves does not affect knockback in Melee or PM (only damage), so there should be no reason to try to "save up" nair.

Like in brawl I think knocback is: base_knockback + knockback_growth * percent_damage_done / enemy_weight
And in Melee and PM knockback is: base_knockback + knockback_growth * percent_damage_move_does_before_applying_stale_moves / enemy_weight

I really might be wrong on this, since I don't remember where I read this... sorry if I'm crazy here :p
I've heard that knockback does not stale either. Not sure though.
 

Chesstiger2612

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Knockback itself doesn't stale directly, but damage stales and damage affects knockback but because it is just one of many variables weighing in and not proportional, the staling effect is there to a much lesser extent.
 

dettadeus

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IIRC knockback is also calculated after the damage for the move has been dealt, which is why hitting someone at a certain percent with a staled move will deal less knockback than a fresh one - the fresh one increases their damage more before the knockback is calculated.

We should continue matchup discussion sometime.
 
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Lawn Chair

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Yeah but I just want to discuss about the CT tier list, I had an insider tell me it was being developed and I'm glad about the outcome not too many placements are outrageous.

(X) = I disagree with placement. I'll have levels for disagreement.

1 = kinda of disgree
2 = disagree but chance that is close to a right placement
3 = do not agree at all

Top Tier: Fox, Falco
High Tier: Zelda, Pit, Meta Knight, Wolf(X)(X), Link(X)(X), Ivysaur, Marth(X)(X)(X), Mario
Upper-Mid: Tier: Lucas, Snake, Ike, Mewtwo, Sonic
Mid Tier: King Dedede, Wario(X)(X), Captain Falcon(X)(X), Lucario, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Roy, ROB(X), Pikachu, Samus, Bowser, Diddy Kong(X), Sheik(X)(X)(X), Squirtle, Ness, Kirby
Lower-Mid Tier: Yoshi, Luigi, Ice Climbers(X), Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus(X)(X), Mr. Game and Watch, Peach(X)(X)(X)
Low Tier: Olimar, Toon Link

My Tier List (haven't made one until this one came out. Notice this is not my final opinion.):

Top Tier: Fox, Falco, Marth
High Tier: Zelda, Pit, Metaknight, Ivysaur, Mario
Upper-Mid: Tier: Lucas, Snake, Link, Ike, Mewtwo, Sonic, ROB, Wario, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Peach
Mid Tier: King Dedede, Captain Falcon, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Charizard, Roy, Pikachu, Samus, Bowser, Squirtle, Ness, Kirby
Lower-Mid Tier: Yoshi, Luigi, Ice Climbers, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game and Watch,
Low Tier: Olimar, Toon Link
 
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Chesstiger2612

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Fox on 1 makes sense, I can't see why Zelda should be so high she is not that good imho. Falco is kind of a double-edged sword because his recovery issues got worse, but he also got the RAR and some other stuff, so I am OK with rank 2. Pit is just placed in top 5 because Armada he is probably a bit better than 10. I agree with MK, Wolf and Link, I would argue Diddy should be up there too (so much potential) but no player like Pit has Armada... Concerning the lower half, I am mostly OK but it isn't that obvious, most of those characters have much to explore yet. Judging by the full potential the characters have much of this is inaccurate but if you take the current metagame most of it is understandable.
 

Lawn Chair

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Fox on 1 makes sense, I can't see why Zelda should be so high she is not that good imho. Falco is kind of a double-edged sword because his recovery issues got worse, but he also got the RAR and some other stuff, so I am OK with rank 2. Pit is just placed in top 5 because Armada he is probably a bit better than 10. I agree with MK, Wolf and Link, I would argue Diddy should be up there too (so much potential) but no player like Pit has Armada... Concerning the lower half, I am mostly OK but it isn't that obvious, most of those characters have much to explore yet. Judging by the full potential the characters have much of this is inaccurate but if you take the current metagame most of it is understandable.
Pit has crazy good dthrow chain grabs on almost everyone at 0- to the 80s or 90s. Armada may have not known that because I heard he barley played PM for Apex from a friend that played him. Or he was being honorable. Done my Tier list above btw
 
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SpiderMad

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IIRC knockback is also calculated after the damage for the move has been dealt, which is why hitting someone at a certain percent with a staled move will deal less knockback than a fresh one - the fresh one increases their damage more before the knockback is calculated.

We should continue matchup discussion sometime.
I also remember something like Brawl and Melee differed in this that one calculated the other before the other
 

Armada

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Pit has crazy good dthrow chain grabs on almost everyone at 0- to the 80s or 90s. Armada may have not known that because I heard he barley played PM for Apex from a friend that played him. Or he was being honorable. Done my Tier list above btw
Yeah it is true I don't play the game much at all except for tournaments.
I don't think this change grab you explain does work that way though. Do you have any videos of it? (do not even have PM so can't test it)

Based on the way many chars are flying I really doubt it (even vs certain chars they fly high enough to reach a plattform even if it would be a CG on FD which could be banned very easily with 3 stage bans per player).
 

Lawn Chair

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Yeah it is true I don't play the game much at all except for tournaments.
I don't think this change grab you explain does work that way though. Do you have any videos of it? (do not even have PM so can't test it)

Based on the way many chars are flying I really doubt it (even vs certain chars they fly high enough to reach a plattform even if it would be a CG on FD which could be banned very easily with 3 stage bans per player).
You have easy free chain grabs on Metaknight with dthrow, fox and falco I think you have to be like frame perfect from around 0% and 30% there is more leniency but still very difficult IIRC.

Read your Private Message Armada!
 
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Armada

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Yeah I do know about this chars.
But you more or less stated "Pit has crazy good dthrow chain grabs on almost everyone at 0- to the 80s or 90s."

Im sure Pit do not have this kind of CG on the entire cast and for sure not that long.
Besides if MK DI into Pit I don't think that CG works very good either
 

Lawn Chair

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Yeah I do know about this chars.
But you more or less stated "Pit has crazy good dthrow chain grabs on almost everyone at 0- to the 80s or 90s."

Im sure Pit do not have this kind of CG on the entire cast and for sure not that long.
Besides if MK DI into Pit I don't think that CG works very good either
I'll have to do some testing when I get my setup back.
 

Chesstiger2612

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You can get out fairly soon with slightly in upwards DI and jump out. The idea is to be directly bit above Pit so he won't reach with his grabs both pivot and command. Pit can get at least an up-tilt out of that escape but that might be it... Most people tend to DI away+down since thats pretty often the way to go against grabs and that give Pit an easy dash grab.
 

Lawn Chair

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You can get out fairly soon with slightly in upwards DI and jump out. The idea is to be directly bit above Pit so he won't reach with his grabs both pivot and command. Pit can get at least an up-tilt out of that escape but that might be it... Most people tend to DI away+down since thats pretty often the way to go against grabs and that give Pit an easy dash grab.
Well
You put marth as XXX but his placemnt is almost the same in your own tier list lol.
Just realized that, fixed it thanks.
 

xPerplex

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Well


Just realized that, fixed it thanks.
Could you explain your justification for putting Marth that high up? I've found Marth to have many more bad matchups in PM and its quite frustrating. My Marth is by far by most played and most technically sound character, but it still gets trashed in every PM tourney that I enter. I always switch to Diddy or MK and then start winning games. I just feel like Marth gets out priortized by too much of the PM cast, and his edge guarding game isn't as scary because of how good everyones recoveries are.

and for reference.. i probably have like ~1000 hours of marth played and maybe ~100 of diddy/MK... I can do all of marth's tech near perfectly and he's the only character that I never miss wavelands on, yet I still get rocked. what gives? I figured he would be mid to midlow tier in PM
 
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Lawn Chair

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Could you explain your justification for putting Marth that high up? I've found Marth to have many more bad matchups in PM and its quite frustrating. My Marth is by far by most played and most technically sound character, but it still gets trashed in every PM tourney that I enter. I always switch to Diddy or MK and then start winning games. I just feel like Marth gets out priortized by too much of the PM cast, and his edge guarding game isn't as scary because of how good everyones recoveries are.

and for reference.. i probably have like ~1000 hours of marth played and maybe ~100 of diddy/MK... I can do all of marth's tech near perfectly and he's the only character that I never miss wavelands on, yet I still get rocked. what gives? I figured he would be mid to midlow tier in PM
The fact is his zoning game is the best out of the whole cast and his guaranteed combos on throws and his edge guarding is still viable. He is there for a reason and if you can't edgeguard them he can still ken combo :) Marth is just a really hard character to play. But he is godlike
 

leekslap

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I disagree with your rating of dair. Dair racks up damage and pops 'em up to start or continue combos with ease. It's also a great tech chase option if you are in a position where you can't quite IDC. It beats a lot of moves and to me is a great move. Up tilt is great for comboing and in some of my longest and saltiest combos, I used up tilt and dair.

When will you finish? Forget X and Y, Omega Ruby and Alpha Saphire are already coming out!
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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You don't use dair very often, to start combos. It's better used during the combo. If you can't IDC, just boost grab or dtilt...
 
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Dext3rM.

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-Usmash: Terrible. I won't even sugarcoat this, the move is garbage and there are always better options. SH Uair covers the same range, combos/sets up better, and is less punishable on whiff. It could maybe be used as a last-ditch vertical kill move, but Grounded Shuttle Loop would still kill way earlier.
i had to say i disagree on this one, i consider up smash one of his best moves vs fast fallers for example falcon that if he execute a d air vs up air of mk he will have priority and win the hit most of times and start the tech chase game so better wait to up smash, yo can even execute 2 3 up smash with u airs in a row if they dont di correctly wich is most of cases cuz they dont spect a lot of up smashes, if u change things like this you will evade almost all falcon tech chase game that is extremly dangerous vs mk in conclusion mk up smash is super good
 
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Chesstiger2612

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Yeah the first post is kind of outdated (but it contains some useful information still). At this point most MKs use up-smash as you described
 

Blank Mauser

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Usmash is good because it can't be CC'ed also. As I stated in another thread, if you have problems with CC mix up grabs, Usmash, and retreating full jump Nairs(Made safe by platforms).

Also after getting everyone to pick up this character in my state, I've found that CC IDC and IDC OOS are criminally underrated.
 
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