*pound* 5

[DJRome]

i don't get it 3. why should the REASON winners deserve their money matter? you make it seem as if their being teenagers or their winnings as a result of being a video game means that plank doesn't really owe them any money at all!

 

[Pi]

When you break it down
Being in a legally binding contract with a large hotel corporation is going to trump giving prize winnings to some teenagers playing a video game any day of the week.

Past that, if I ended up in planks shoes, I would make an effort to reimburse the winners of my tournament at least for the cost of their trip, because they had every right to expect winnings.

What I am not agreeing with is everyone jumping down the mans throat and demanding that he pay 9k worth of prize money that he does not have because of a tournament that he ran.

 

[DJRome]

okay, i see your point, and i would have done the same thing, but plank isn't doing the right thing here.

i understand plank owes nothing legally. but i think that is not enough to say no legal bearing and be done with it.

i agree, if i were plank, i would pay winners back.

but the whole since he ran the tournament, winners would not have had the chance to win without it argument i find bad.

let's look at it step by step:

plank hosts tournament. people say yay and pay money to go. some win. some lose.

if plank hosts no tournament, people keep their money.

because of something plank directly did, people ended up spending money. when you decide to host an event or make promises, you take on certain responsibilities. i can't fault people for trusting plank in this case to do what he has always done, which is pay out.

 

[Laijin]

When you break it down
Being in a legally binding contract with a large hotel corporation is going to trump giving prize winnings to some teenagers playing a video game any day of the week.

Past that, if I ended up in planks shoes, I would make an effort to reimburse the winners of my tournament at least for the cost of their trip, because they had every right to expect winnings.

What I am not agreeing with is everyone jumping down the mans throat and demanding that he pay 9k worth of prize money that he does not have because of a tournament that he ran.

My "defending" of plank basically boils down to this.
I don't get why anyone would seriously be pissed off at him for avoiding 30k+ of debt. Like 3 said, whats worst? Not paying out prize money or being in debt for a very long time? 30k is a lot+ interest if you don't have an awesome stellar job.
If I was Plank, I'd work towards paying the winners somehow. But to honestly call him a thief for avoiding a situation like that shows a lot about your understanding of how the world works.

 

[Pierce7d]

I am not saying it was right in every sense of the word
But the hotel needed payment immediately, and plank made the right decision by abiding by his contract and paying them off. He needed to or he faced some seriously legal or financial backlash.

Please answer my questions. They are simple yes or no questions. You are dancing around the point trying to make Plank look more innocent than he really is. If you agree that the money was not Plank's, then how can you think Plank was right to use to to pay off the debts?

Suppose you were in charge of delivering money from one place to another. However, you were in debt. Would it then be okay to use this money to pay off your debt?

After this he was not left with any money to hand to the winners. Are you implyinig that he should have forsaken his contract w/ the hotel and instead handing the money to the winners and either taken out a loan for 9k which incurs interest or just tried to dip from his responsibilities to the hotel?

He signed a contract which he did not have the money to pay. This has dire consequences, but is HIS FAULT. He should have given the money to the winners, because it was not his money to pay the debt with. I swear I've said this at least 10 times now.

He made the same decision any one of us would have made, not saying that it wasn't poor planning, but at this point in time he does not have extra cash to hand out to the winners of a video game tournament. And if you choose to believe what he said about his financial situation, then he isn't making very much extra money, at least not enough to pay thousands of dollars to some teenagers who won his event.

Those teenagers, and ADULTS who RIGHTFULLY TRAVELED AND EARNED THEIR MONEY DESERVE TO HAVE IT. wth? It's not his money to decide "Eh, I have bills so, I don't feel like paying out prizes this time around guys." IT'S THEIR MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And you keep calling it stealing, but that's an exaggeration.

Please explain how it's an exaggeration to call it stealing. When you take money that you were paid to deliver, and fail to deliver it, instead using it for your own needs, that is STEALING

Prizes come after expenses are paid. If plank had any money left over that would have gone to the winners, but he didn't due to poor planning of the event. Any time a smash event is held at a venue there is a cost of using that venue. It use to be we would just dip into the pot, TIO even has a feature to dip into the pot to pay for the venue or host expenses or whatever. Now instead of that we've changed that to a venue fee but that is heavily dependent upon attendance. He didn't steal anything, we all got to enter the tournament and enter the venue.

Prizes come from the TOURNAMENT ENTRY FEE. When I purchased my tournament entry fee, it was implied that I would be getting the entire tournament service. This includes entry into the bracket, an organizer to run the tournament in an efficient fashion, and prize payouts to the winners. If I go to the car wash, YOU DAMN SURE BETTER USE WATER AND SOAP WHEN WASHING MY CAR. Just because it's not in contract when I put the 15 dollars in had for the car wash service, doesn't mean it's not agreed upon that I'm expecting you to take my car through your washers while they are fully operational. PAYING OUT THE PRIZES IS PART OF THE TOURNAMENT. THE MONEY GOES TO THE WINNERS, NOT TO THE ORGANIZER. THIS IS UNDERSTOOD AS PART OF THE HOSTING SERVICE.

Plank took the money in the tournament entry fee, and used it for the purpose that the venue fee was collected for. This is WRONG. When I paid that money, it was understood, EVEN BY PLANK HIMSELF, that the tournament entry fee money GOES INTO THE POT, and is to be distributed to the placers. WE KNOW HE KNOWS THIS, BECAUSE HE WAS A RENOWN TOURNAMENT ORGANIZER. To deny this is a lie.

Please answer the questions I asked you in the last post.

 

[Pi]

okay, i see your point, and i would have done the same thing, but plank isn't doing the right thing here.

i understand plank owes nothing legally. but i think that is not enough to say no legal bearing and be done with it.

i agree, if i were plank, i would pay winners back.

but the whole since he ran the tournament, winners would not have had the chance to win without it argument i find bad.

let's look at it step by step:

plank hosts tournament. people say yay and pay money to go. some win. some lose.

if plank hosts no tournament, people keep their money.

because of something plank directly did, people ended up spending money. when you decide to host an event or make promises, you take on certain responsibilities. i can't fault people for trusting plank in this case to do what he has always done, which is pay out.

nobody is faulting them

and it's not like plank let us all arrive there and then he wasn't there and there was no venue and the hotel didn't know wtf we were talking about

there was an event and everyone had a good time and the winners tried their hardest and put on a show for everyone, we've got videos and memories that can't be taken away

it's not like plank failed to provide a service, he planned poorly and because of that he didn't have the means to pay the winners of the event - that's the only issue that came up.

all I keep seeing is exaggerations about what a monster he was and how he did this or that wrong and he's a thief and a bunch of other bull **** by people who didn't even attend the damn thing.

 

[Pierce7d]

My "defending" of plank basically boils down to this.
I don't get why anyone would seriously be pissed off at him for avoiding 30k+ of debt. Like 3 said, whats worst? Not paying out prize money or being in debt for a very long time? 30k is a lot+ interest if you don't have an awesome stellar job.
If I was Plank, I'd work towards paying the winners somehow. But to honestly call him a thief for avoiding a situation like that shows a lot about your understanding of how the world works.

Stealing money to pay off debt is still stealing. If a kid went into my pocket, and stole $20 bucks, because he was dirty, poor, homeless and starving, I wouldn't condemn the kid, and I'd probably let him get away with the cash on top of that, but that doesn't exempt him from being a thief.

nobody is faulting them

and it's not like plank let us all arrive there and then he wasn't there and there was no venue and the hotel didn't know wtf we were talking about

there was an event and everyone had a good time and the winners tried their hardest and put on a show for everyone, we've got videos and memories that can't be taken away

it's not like plank failed to provide a service, he planned poorly and because of that he didn't have the means to pay the winners of the event - that's the only issue that came up.

all I keep seeing is exaggerations about what a monster he was and how he did this or that wrong and he's a thief and a bunch of other bull **** by people who didn't even attend the damn thing.

When I enter a tournament, this includes paying out the winners, so if the winners are not paid, the service is not fulfilled.

 

[Pi]

Please answer my questions. They are simple yes or no questions. You are dancing around the point trying to make Plank look more innocent than he really is. If you agree that the money was not Plank's, then how can you think Plank was right to use to to pay off the debts?

Suppose you were in charge of delivering money from one place to another. However, you were in debt. Would it then be okay to use this money to pay off your debt?

Being in charge as in what, they hired you to perform this service?
Or just like 'hey dude take this money to the church over there and give it to the pastor'

Let's say that someone hires you to perform this service. It's in your best interest not to spend more money to make the delivery, than is to be made from performing the service for the employer. If you have student loan from 10 years ago that needs to be paid, of course it's not acceptable to take the money you agreed to deliver to point B and use it to pay off your loan. But that's not what happened at pound. What happened at pound would be if you acquired debt due to making the delivery, which you would expect the employer to pay off, given that it was caused in part by the delivery service that you were providing.

In this same likeness, plank announced that he would be hosting a tournament, we payed to attend his event, he held his event, the cost of his event was to be covered by the funds that we volunteered to him. As they were. The trouble comes in when he led us to believe that there would be prizes, and due to poor planning there were no prizes.

Now if it were the ladder, and you decided to just run off with the money, than the guy who gave it to you is a moron, and you're an *******.

But let's say that you got hit by a truck crossing the street to deliver the money, would it be wrong to expect the guy who gave you the task to offer some compensation for putting you in that position even though neither of you could have foreseen those events?

He signed a contract which he did not have the money to pay. This has dire consequences, but is HIS FAULT. He should have given the money to the winners, because it was not his money to pay the debt with. I swear I've said this at least 10 times now.

So you would expect him to have 20k to run this event all by himself, and that all the money made from the tournament should go back to the winners of said tournament?
Of course he didn't have the money to pay the cost in full, it was a charity event, he intended to make the money from the event and have enough left over to give prizes to the winners. It didn't turn out this way.

Those teenagers, and ADULTS who RIGHTFULLY TRAVELED AND EARNED THEIR MONEY DESERVE TO HAVE IT. wth? It's not his money to decide "Eh, I have bills so, I don't feel like paying out prizes this time around guys." IT'S THEIR MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You're being ridiculous, paying the venue has always come first, and while we choose to attempt to make a distinction between the money that is going toward the venue cost (door fee) and the money that is going to the pot (entry fee), nothing is guaranteed and all of this money gets lumped together in the end, and the venue is paid off and the winners take the rest.

If the door fee comes out to be more than what the venue cost, its the standard for the TO to put the money back into the pot, because if people found out that he pocketed money from an exaggerated door fee they would be outraged. But now when the TO has to dip into the pot because he overestimated the expected door fee, he's a thief once more.

Please explain how it's an exaggeration to call it stealing. When you take money that you were paid to deliver, and fail to deliver it, instead using it for your own needs, that is STEALING

It's not stealing because if you were to try this case in court you could not sue him for theft. You volunteered him money to enter the venue, and enter the tournament. He provided you that service without a hitch. That is the transaction that was made, he didn't take money out of your wallet, he didn't dip into armada's bank account and take 1k from him to cover the costs of the event. He charged you to participate in his event, and you did.

Prizes come from the TOURNAMENT ENTRY FEE. When I purchased my tournament entry fee, it was implied that I would be getting the entire tournament service. This includes entry into the bracket, an organizer to run the tournament in an efficient fashion, and prize payouts to the winners. If I go to the car wash, YOU DAMN SURE BETTER USE WATER AND SOAP WHEN WASHING MY CAR. Just because it's not in contract when I put the 15 dollars in had for the car wash service, doesn't mean it's not agreed upon that I'm expecting you to take my car through your washers while they are fully operational. PAYING OUT THE PRIZES IS PART OF THE TOURNAMENT. THE MONEY GOES TO THE WINNERS, NOT TO THE ORGANIZER. THIS IS UNDERSTOOD AS PART OF THE HOSTING SERVICE.

Prizes come from whatever money is left over after costs of running the event are paid off. That is how it has always been and will always be. There is no actual distinction between the 'door fee' and the 'entry fee', you are invention one.

If a car wash does an unsatisfactory job of washing your car, you can't sue them (unless they damage you or your car, or charge you more than advertised), at most you can tell people about that car was and what a ****ty job they did washing your car, or maybe contact the BBC and write a bad review. Because as long as they did what they can claim was 'wash your car', you can't do anything against that. Just because they didn't use soap, water, wax, inflate your tires, polish your shoes, paint your toe nails, and do all the stuff you think is standard when getting your car washed doesn't mean they didn't 'wash your car'.

Plank took the money in the tournament entry fee, and used it for the purpose that the venue fee was collected for. This is WRONG. When I paid that money, it was understood, EVEN BY PLANK HIMSELF, that the tournament entry fee money GOES INTO THE POT, and is to be distributed to the placers. WE KNOW HE KNOWS THIS, BECAUSE HE WAS A RENOWN TOURNAMENT ORGANIZER. To deny this is a lie.

Prizes come from whatever money is left over after costs of running the event are paid off. That is how it has always been and will always be. There is no actual distinction between the 'door fee' and the 'entry fee', you are invention one.

Please answer the questions I asked you in the last post.

You mean those subjective opinion based questions? Sure why not,

You agree that the money does not belong to Plank

No. We all paid plank to attend his event. We gave that money to plank entrusting/assuming that he would use it as we saw fit, but in the end the money was planks to do with what he pleased. Had he failed to provide the advertised service (a tournament), then something could and should be done about it. But failing to provide an 'implied' or 'expected' amount of 'prize money' to the winners of the advertised tournament isn't 'wrong' in any other sense than moral.

You agree that the money does belong to the winners.

I believe that it was perfectly acceptable and expected for them to assume they would be getting paid for performing well in the tournament, as this is the norm for these type of events. But the money was still planks to do with as he pleased. Nothing was agree'd upon before hand, there was nothing signed, not even so much as a verbal contract obligating him to distribute a % of the tournament entry fee to the top placing players of this event.

So no.

How can you justify Plank spending their winnings to pay off the venue debt?

By reminding you that every TO ever has done this same exact thing, the term 'their winnings' is not defined. The venue gets paid, and then the winners get paid what is left over, that's how it has always been.

What I cannot justify is him making such terrible decisions as to put faith into this community.
I cannot justify him signing a contract of that nature, for the amount he did, it was outrageous.
And I can't justify/don't like the fact that he doesn't seem to be making an effort to help the winners who were right in their thinking that they would receive payment.

 

[skins]

Am I missing something here?

Plank clearly defrauded every entrant into his tournament.

Enter wikipedias definition of fraud:

Common law fraud has nine elements:

1. a representation of an existing fact; There would be a prize pool based on the number of entrants.

2. its materiality; Smashers would not have been there without the prize pool.

3. its falsity;
There was no prize pool.

4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
Plank knew beforehand that the money would be used to cover hotel fees and not a prize pool

5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
Plank's misrepresentation was created to get people to come to the tournament

6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity; Nobody knew they wouldn't get winnings

7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
Entrants were there and paid into a pot in hopes of receiving winnings.

8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it;
Entrants had every reason to believe they would make money with a top finish

9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.
Top finishers that should have made considerable winnings were denied them.

The fact that Plank misrepresented was that top entrants into his tournament would split a prize pool.
They would not be there if not for that prize pool. Its a pathetic mess that Plank himself created and money is owed

Too bad he is broke and what are you guys gonna do...sue and garnish his wages (you could but whats the point)??

 

[Pierce7d]

You agree that the money does not belong to Plank

No. We all paid plank to attend his event. We gave that money to plank entrusting/assuming that he would use it as we saw fit, but in the end the money was planks to do with what he pleased. Had he failed to provide the advertised service (a tournament), then something could and should be done about it. But failing to provide an 'implied' or 'expected' amount of 'prize money' to the winners of the advertised tournament isn't 'wrong' in any other sense than moral.

You agree that the money does belong to the winners.

I believe that it was perfectly acceptable and expected for them to assume they would be getting paid for performing well in the tournament, as this is the norm for these type of events. But the money was still planks to do with as he pleased. Nothing was agree'd upon before hand, there was nothing signed, not even so much as a verbal contract obligating him to distribute a % of the tournament entry fee to the top placing players of this event.

So no.

How can you justify Plank spending their winnings to pay off the venue debt?

By reminding you that every TO ever has done this same exact thing, the term 'their winnings' is not defined. The venue gets paid, and then the winners get paid what is left over, that's how it has always been.

What I cannot justify is him making such terrible decisions as to put faith into this community.
I cannot justify him signing a contract of that nature, for the amount he did, it was outrageous.
And I can't justify/don't like the fact that he doesn't seem to be making an effort to help the winners who were right in their thinking that they would receive payment.

In all cases, you should finish the service, and deliver the money to the recipient, and then go back to your employer and demand compensation, if it is the fault of the employer that you have fallen into debt while performing a service for them.

If I take my car to the car wash, I do not say, "Clean my car, and make sure you use at minimum 30 galleons of water, 3 pounds of soap, and make it shine to a bright luster." It is a universally understood service that when I pay for a car wash, you are to use soap and water, and I'm also purchasing those supplies. Do not just wipe it with a dry cloth, or run it through a dry system, and call the car washed.

LIKEWISE, when I enter into a tournament, it is universally understood that I expect the entry fees to be paid out to the winners. I'm sure if you ask nearly anyone in the thread, MOST PEOPLE HAD THIS EXPECTATION UPON THEIR PURCHASE. This was based off of previous and similar purchases that have been established for YEARS. The reason we HAVE venue fee separate from entry fee is for this purpose. In fact, in 2008, a lot of Novice Brawl Tournament Hosts had $15 entry fees, and 33% of the pot would be taken out to pay for the venue (local tournaments). This presentation was unclean and unfavored, which is WHY we separated it into venue and entry fee. EITHER WAY, it is clear that the $5 goes into venue fee, and $10 goes into pot. Whether we say $5 venue, $10 entry, or we say $15 entry, and 1/3rd of the pot is taken for venue, BOTH WAYS DO NOT ENCOURAGE THE CUSTOMER/COMPETITOR TO QUESTION WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING.

The Pound Passes were ALSO in this format, so it is blasphemy to imply that money into the Pot was not promised. Entry fee goes into the pot. This is a SACRED RULE. Obviously, Plank getting the winnings robbed from his account does not leave him at fault, but I want to make sure anyone reading this UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPT I AM EXPLAINING.

Now, for your sake of not understanding a concept that has been agreed between players and TOs for ages now, in the future, I will hold all tournament organizers accountable. I will specifically outline that the must put 100% of the pot money into prizes, and I will encourage others to do the same. This is a core rule, sacred to us, and commonly understood, but you seem to think otherwise, so I will rectify the issue personally.

Red part quoted for agreement.

 

[Pierce7d]

Am I missing something here?

Plank clearly defrauded every entrant into his tournament.

Enter wikipedias definition of fraud:

Common law fraud has nine elements:

1. a representation of an existing fact; There would be a prize pool based on the number of entrants.

2. its materiality; Smashers would not have been there without the prize pool.

3. its falsity;
There was no prize pool.

4. the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
Plank knew beforehand that the money would be used to cover hotel fees and not a prize pool

5. the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
Plank's misrepresentation was created to get people to come to the tournament

6. plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity; Nobody knew they wouldn't get winnings

7. plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
Entrants were there and paid into a pot in hopes of receiving winnings.

8. plaintiff's right to rely upon it;
Entrants had every reason to believe they would make money with a top finish

9. consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.
Top finishers that should have made considerable winnings were denied them.

The fact that Plank misrepresented was that top entrants into his tournament would split a prize pool.
They would not be there if not for that prize pool. Its a pathetic mess that Plank himself created and money is owed

Too bad he is broke and what are you guys gonna do...sue and garnish his wages (you could but whats the point)??

Well, Plank actually worked hard to pay out the winnings, so he did not deliberately deceive us, but he held back the knowledge far longer than I would deem reasonable.

 

[Pi]

In all cases, you should finish the service, and deliver the money to the recipient, and then go back to your employer and demand compensation, if it is the fault of the employer that you have fallen into debt while performing a service for them.

Certainly, but plank did finish the service that was advertised. The tournament happened. All the way from R1 teams pools to singles GF.

If I take my car to the car wash, I do not say, "Clean my car, and make sure you use at minimum 30 galleons of water, 3 pounds of soap, and make it shine to a bright luster." It is a universally understood service that when I pay for a car wash, you are to use soap and water, and I'm also purchasing those supplies. Do not just wipe it with a dry cloth, or run it through a dry system, and call the car washed.

Saying 'universally understood' doesn't make it so. If I take your car and wash it with water and an old sock, and it shines, have I not washed your car? If I spray windex on your window and dry it with an old newspaper, have I not in some sense washed your window?

LIKEWISE, when I enter into a tournament, it is universally understood that I expect the entry fees to be paid out to the winners. I'm sure if you ask nearly anyone in the thread, MOST PEOPLE HAD THIS EXPECTATION UPON THEIR PURCHASE. This was based off of previous and similar purchases that have been established for YEARS. The reason we HAVE venue fee separate from entry fee is for this purpose. In fact, in 2008, a lot of Novice Brawl Tournament Hosts had $15 entry fees, and 33% of the pot would be taken out to pay for the venue (local tournaments). This presentation was unclean and unfavored, which is WHY we separated it into venue and entry fee. EITHER WAY, it is clear that the $5 goes into venue fee, and $10 goes into pot. Whether we say $5 venue, $10 entry, or we say $15 entry, and 1/3rd of the pot is taken for venue, BOTH WAYS DO NOT ENCOURAGE THE CUSTOMER/COMPETITOR TO QUESTION WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING.

Again, just because you say it's 'universally accepted' doesn't make it so.
Not all tournaments take money directly from the entry fee and return it to the winners. Some come with non-cash prizes. 'Established for years', within our community only. If you talk to most non-video game players about a video game tournament they won't automatically assume that there is a cash prize derived from the entry fee of the tournament. Hell everyone I talked to at work asked me 'well what does the winner get'. I could have said anything and they would have been like oh that's cool.

The Pound Passes were ALSO in this format, so it is blasphemy to imply that money into the Pot was not promised. Entry fee goes into the pot. This is a SACRED RULE. Obviously, Plank getting the winnings robbed from his account does not leave him at fault, but I want to make sure anyone reading this UNDERSTANDS THE CONCEPT I AM EXPLAINING.

Now, for your sake of not understanding a concept that has been agreed between players and TOs for ages now, in the future, I will hold all tournament organizers accountable. I will specifically outline that the must put 100% of the pot money into prizes, and I will encourage others to do the same. This is a core rule, sacred to us, and commonly understood, but you seem to think otherwise, so I will rectify the issue personally.

You're living in your own little world aren't you.

 

[Pierce7d]

Certainly, but plank did finish the service that was advertised. The tournament happened. All the way from R1 teams pools to singles GF.

Although prizes were not specified, prizes was advertised, and implied simply when he called the event a tournament.

Saying 'universally understood' doesn't make it so. If I take your car and wash it with water and an old sock, and it shines, have I not washed your car? If I spray windex on your window and dry it with an old newspaper, have I not in some sense washed your window?

Fair enough, but if I drive up to a car washing facility where they drive the car through cleaning brushes, paid money, asked them to wash my car, and they pulled out a sock, I would consider that fraud. Would you honestly allow yourself to be insulted in such a manner?

Again, just because you say it's 'universally accepted' doesn't make it so.
Not all tournaments take money directly from the entry fee and return it to the winners. Some come with non-cash prizes. 'Established for years', within our community only. If you talk to most non-video game players about a video game tournament they won't automatically assume that there is a cash prize derived from the entry fee of the tournament. Hell everyone I talked to at work asked me 'well what does the winner get'. I could have said anything and they would have been like oh that's cool.

Alright, but this is a service within the community, for the community, by a member of the community. They might do things different in other countries, but if I elicit a service in the United States, I expect it to be done in the U.S. way. Likewise, when I shop at a familiar tournament organizer's tournament, I expect my tournament to be completed in the traditional way. Plank not alerting us that things would be different would be DECEIVING US, AND HENCE FRAUD. Now, like I said, I acknowledge Plank having no initial knowledge or intention of not being able to pay out prizes, but if he did at the point of accepting my money, then that's fraud.

You're living in your own little world aren't you.

I'd be willing to bet money that at least 90% of people on this forum agree with me, so not really. I don't live in a world where I drive to car washes and permit people to clean my car with a sock after paying them my money. What world do you live in?

 

[Pi]

At least you've stopped calling it theft.

Fraud is the only thing that I could see standing up here, skins post attests to that

The only thing different about this tournament was the cost of the venue. Aside from that everything was run as per standard. As I have said paying off the venue has always come first, whether the door fee covered it in its entirety or not. And not having all the money required to pay the venue up front has always been the standard. Nobody hosts a tournament and plans for nobody to show up.

You can't just fabricate rules and policies and standards and know that things will turn out and go according to plan. If you are trying to rely on something you need more than good faith, any time you base a decision/thought merely on past experiences there is a risk. Everybody took a risk when they sent some guy they never met and only knew about through a video game forum money over the internet. And everyone took a risk when they entered the tournament that they might not win, everyone.

If you buy 100 lottery tickets advertising that 1 in 100 wins, and you don't win, you can't sue the company for fraud, they have no control over what tickets you buy.

 

[GimR]

I feel really bad for the top placers since most of them are long distance traveling out of staters and they would not of attended the event if no prize money was to be given


Melee

Dr. PeePEe - North Carolina
Armada - Sweden
Hbox - Florida
Axe - Arizona(or is it New Mexico?)


Brawl

Ally - Canada
Anti - New York
Seibrik - Florida
Esam - Florida

 

[Pi]

I feel really bad for the top placers since most of them are long distance traveling out of staters and they would not of attended the event if no prize money was to be given


Melee

Dr. PeePEe - North Carolina
Armada - Sweden
Hbox - Florida
Axe - Arizona(or is it New Mexico?)


Brawl

Ally - Canada
Anti - New York
Seibrik - Florida
Esam - Florida

what about the rest of us who traveled to the event from the same states as these people...?

 

[GimR]

what about the rest of us who traveled to the event from the same states as these people...?

you got what you paid for. You didn't win so you didn't deserve any of the money that was taken thus I don't feel bad for you. Are you seriously asking me this?

 

[Pi]

^lol good to know.

so if i had won even though i essentially 'got what i paid for' when i didn't win
you would feel bad for me

what if armadas Ylink plan fell through and hbox bested him in winners, and then he met pp/axe/hax in losers before he was in significant money

you don't pay to get a prize, you pay for a chance to compete in a tournament
prizes are rewards for doing well

 

[GimR]

What? Dude, you can't argue with me on this. Entry fee was for the pot. The best players earned that money. I don't even know why you're starting something with me. I never bad mouthed plank. I simply stated I felt bad for the players who didn't get paid, especially since they had big traveling expenses.

 

[Pierce7d]

^lol good to know.

so if i had won even though i essentially 'got what i paid for' when i didn't win
you would feel bad for me

what if armadas Ylink plan fell through and hbox bested him in winners, and then he met pp/axe/hax in losers before he was in significant money

you don't pay to get a prize, you pay for a chance to compete in a tournament
prizes are rewards for doing well

That payment isn't to the organizer though, it's to the POT. You also payed for the organizer to run the tournament, which implies that the pot will be paid to the winners, because that's part of running the tournament.

Imagine if the organizer decided to run a tournament, except he refused to create brackets and call matches. You'd want your money back. In the same fashion, paying out the pot is part of running the tournament.

 

[Pi]

What? Dude, you can't argue with me on this. Entry fee was for the pot. The best players earned that money. I don't even know why you're starting something with me. I never bad mouthed plank. I simply stated I felt bad for the players who didn't get paid, especially since they had big traveling expenses.

I had big travel expenses. Everyone who went to that tournament took a risk on whether or not they would win. In every persons case they should have prepared for the chance that they did not make money at the event. To not do that would be irresponsible.

Hbox, esam, seibrik are in no worse positions than myself or the 5+ other florida smashers who went to the event.

Same goes for everyone who travelled from canada & ally

or the group from europe & armada

That payment isn't to the organizer though, it's to the POT. You also payed for the organizer to run the tournament, which implies that the pot will be paid to the winners, because that's part of running the tournament.

Imagine if the organizer decided to run a tournament, except he refused to create brackets and call matches. You'd want your money back. In the same fashion, paying out the pot is part of running the tournament.

assumptions & implications is all you keep giving me

If, in the OP, or on the pre reg site, or anywhere surrounding the tournaments organization and advertisement it stated that the entry fee was to go directly and explicitly to the 'pot' (which also, was never mentioned), and to be distributed in standard fashion out to the winners of the tournament then I could see why you would keep repeating that.

Do I agree with you that it's the norm, yes.
Any tournament I would run would follow the standard, and it's to be expected from most tournaments.

But when nothing is written down, signed, or verbally discussed and agreed upon there's no basis for claiming a wrong has been done other than on a moral level.

plank essentially kept us in the dark about the expenses for the tournament, if he had in fact shed some light on the situation do you honestly believe things would have turned out any better?

if a month before the tourney plank announces that if we don't meet quota there won't be payouts to the winners of the event, and that he's locked into the contract w/ the hotel, and that he could really use our support here, and that if anyone needs a refund he'll still give it

he would have been ****ed, so many people would have canceled, if he handled it any other way, the way ya'll seem to think he should have handled it

he would be screwed, and everyone would feel sorry for HIM, but i grantee you the 'debt' acquired between the winners of the event, compared to the debt plank would have acquired if he had called off the tournament/announced the financial situation & risk to the payouts is a significant degree less serious, especially because it's shouldered by more than 1 person.

please tell me at what stage of the game do you think plank should have called off the event.

when he realized he wasn't going to meet quota? as in, after the event when all the charges to the room came in?
when he realized that not enough people were coming? as in, pretty much the day of the event?

the best decision plank could have made through all of this was not to rely on the smash community and not sign into a contract w/ that hotel for the amount of money he did

after he did that, the snowball was already down the hill and gaining speed and mass

 

[GimR]

yeah but, 3, you're trying to pretend that there isn't any precedent that should be gathered from past nationals or even from the last pound tournaments. You know that no one went to the event thinking that there were no pay outs. Everyone was playing for that prize and for you to pretend that since the OP was carefully worded so Plank could bail if he needed to that the pot still wasn't supposed to go towards prizes then you are delusional.


edit: also, you don't get to decide who I feel bad for.

 

[stingers]

i already told y'all 3 is delirious. you really need to just put him on ignore, you're doing yourselves no favors reading his drivel

 

[Pi]

it's fine to expect a payout
but not to count on it

do i feel bad for the winners? of course
but not because they didn't get money, but because this tournament is going to be remembered for planks mistake and not for the performances put on by
axe (astounding placement with pika)
armada's commitment and dedication to the game which allowed him to finally beat hbox
PP's never wavering determination to become the best shining through as he established himself as most dominate player right now
hax's upset over amsah

and the countless other tournament memories that are tarnished now.

not because they didn't get a prize

 

[AlphaZealot]

Take it to this thread!