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Post Apex 2015 thoughts

digiholic

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If we can get some major streams (*coughcough* Xanadu) to start using customs, then people would likely be a lot more warm to the idea. I can understand them not wanting to do 3 stocks for time, but customs really should be allowed, especially since it's usually the same players playing on the same consoles, meaning their favorite setups will always be there.

I think we should start a movement to let EVO know that we want customs and 3-stocks.
 

Dabuz

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Just saying, I'm pretty sure Abadango didn't go Wario because at a smash local a few days back, I beat his Wario in about 80% of our friendly matches. Also he won game 1 so after losing on my CP, there isn't reason to be discouraged off his main.
 

ninrok

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Really trying to be cautious not to overstep my bounds as "the new guy", but eh...

Most perfect answer I've seen in this forum
Not.... really.

The meta is garbage. Sakurai needs to get his head out of his *** or Nintendo needs a new director. There's no excuse to not patch the game when it's finally an option, unlike previous games in the series. Improving the game for competition does not suddenly exclude casuals from playing it. I'm sick of this stupid mindset he has.

As for what we can do, boring characters should be banned until they are nerfed. Rosalina and Sonic are priorities for now. Diddy is a problem, but nowhere near as much as these two.

Omega stages should be the primary stage picks, if not the only stage picks. Smashville is boring. Viewers want to see the other stages and hear the other music in the game. Not Smashville.
The meta is young, and it just so happened that one of the more campy matchups ended up in top 8 at the biggest major.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai never said never, but just that at the moment he isn't thinking about it and has no plans to. That doesn't mean there will never ever ever be a patch, and technically there has to be one for Mewtwo to even launch since the game likely has to be rebalanced a bit with him in mind.

And its probably not entirely up to him anyhow.

And hell, isn't that kind of a good thing? Before there was a worry they'd patch it too much, remove tech as it was found, and not give the game time to breathe and develop on its own... now it's the opposite?

Boring or exciting characters are down to the player, IMO. Duck Hunt Dog, by design, is not really meant to rush down and do amazing things offensively, and yet the DHD that was in top 16 (8? I can't recall at the moment) was exciting to watch because of all the setups. The match between Dabuz and Abadango just "looked" bad because its really a match where the two characters legit neutralize each other, at least right now (who knows what tech or strats may develop later).

And you know what? Some players just aren't trying to be exciting to watch. And that should be okay.

The stage part of this I don't even get, like at all. Smashville is "boring", so your solution is to make Omegas the ONLY option, just to see and hear other music in the game.... and yet limit the play to all flat stages with little to no variation outside of terrain type and walls or no walls? Which will, of course, then only promote characters and play styles that benefit from that type of stage?

Have you watched an SF4 or Marvel tourney? Stages really don't even matter there and you still get training room 95% of the time. Hell, I'm an advocate of staying away from the usual picks and I'm guilty of it, too lol.

The same stage getting picked over and over comes down more to player comfortability in the end.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Unrefined playstyles seems like something to be expected at this point given a 2 month old meta.

Wonder what will change when people start learning more.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Speaking of the stock count, I used to be a staunch supporter of 3 stocks, but now I'm not so sure. Considering the average pace of a match, I feel like we would see a lot of timeouts with a 3-stock 8-minute ruleset. In Brawl, timeouts were usually on purpose: get a stock and/or percent lead, then stall the clock. In Smash 4, there are timeouts when the players aren't even trying to stall. Even when both players are aggressive, there is still the potential for timeouts just because it's hard to put on damage and it's hard to get KOs. If we don't want Smash 4 tournaments to take forever, I think we might be forced to go with a 2-stock ruleset.
 

Maffew

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Just saying, I'm pretty sure Abadango didn't go Wario because at a smash local a few days back, I beat his Wario in about 80% of our friendly matches. Also he won game 1 so after losing on my CP, there isn't reason to be discouraged off his main.
As weird as the Pac Man v Rosa match up is, at least he was able to somewhat reliably get chip damage with the fruits. I mean Rosalina can just out space both Wario and Pac so efficiently, neither of them have any solid approaches on her, at least with Pac he could do something from a distance. Despite that he really should have went Wario after the first set, it was obvious you knew what to do against his Pac by then, especially since that was a 2 out of 3 set. If he went Wario he could have at least been able to live longer and use his rage effectively, and even if he lost he could've gone back to Pac.
 

Smash Arena

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I would have liked to see more Ike and Duck Hunt, especially Ike, because I feel he can be more of a competitive threat than people take him to be. His Side-B can work wonders for recovery, stage mobility, and even KOing.
 

NotLiquid

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Smash 4 at Apex felt like an exercise in not letting something be what it's truly supposed to be.

I feel like this is generally a hurdle you have to learn to deal with as an ongoing meta develops this early, but more than anything it felt like it was the first tourney where the meta of Smash 4 started to crack a bit more wide open, and for many players, as well as several characters, this felt especially made awkward on account of the Top 8 consisting of players who were, in essence, testing the waters due to many circumstances creating something that, on paper, should have been a fascinating thing to analyze.

This was especially true with certain match ups that ended up stalling on account of various factors surrounding both the options they adopt and the rulesets they ended up running with. The top 16 had to have one of the most diverse rosters to be expected from Smash tourneys. Sky and D1 made that incredibly clear right before we went headlong into the sets, and yet the most adrenaline-filled matches when things winded down consisted mostly of dittos. The sole exception to this if you ask me was 6WX vs MVD where the former's Sonic was finally adopted to a much more optimal and interesting degree that MVD had to answer to that with an offensively oriented counter-pick of his own in the form of Little Mac. Say what you want against that blue bugger, but you can't deny that his play was on point.

Maybe that's just a sign that old habits of Melee and Smash die hard, even when something is set up to theoretically be more interesting to witness (because really, if you have to glance at it merely from a surface level it's fair to argue that a great deal of "exciting" rounds in Melee, particularly the much anticipated Leffen vs Everyone fights at this Apex, consisted of Fox dittos). But we still learned a lot of things along the way in regards to the meta of certain characters. Abadongo's Pac-Man was possibly the biggest eye opener as bringing one of the game's greatest oddities into a public light and showing that there's still an entire meta of characters left to be unexplored. Even if campy, it was fascinating to witness simply on account of brand new things being made developed in front of us.

Granted, Dabuz managed to capitalize on that and, well, Dabuz is gonna Dabuz (even Bill Trinen of all people tweeted at him to use Rosa's DownB to counter Pac-Man with the absorbed projectiles and go on the offensive), but it was interesting to see the ways in which Rosalina was ready to counter Pac-Man to the most patient extents, which in turn created a sort of tango between the characters as round 3 saw Abadongo adopting a more offensive angle with Pac-Man, and the equal give-and-take of that felt like it was the impetus of what Smash 4 should have been able to provide considering the diversity surrounding it's Top 8. But it didn't commit to it, largely because it couldn't. A shaky ruleset that favored stalling, a questionable quarters best-of set up and the impending knowledge that everything surrounding the relatively slower end of it all (no thanks to Apex's schedule being immensely crippled by the awful venue circumstances) was holding back any real positive development that could have happened when the audience was more invested in historic smackdowns and salt mines that Melee would provide.

From a character and game play standpoint I felt like the Top 8 proved a number of things to me - it has many offensive angles to it that outclass Brawl (ZeRo, aMSa, MVD and 6WX proved this much), there's a plethora of unexplored facets in regards to characters that stands as cause for woeful unpreparedness and that even in spite of stigmas surrounding several characters like Sonic and Diddy, it's possible to teach an old dog new tricks. ZeRo's notoriety aside, he paid his dues with Diddy Kong. You can't possibly convince me that it wasn't amazing to see how far he took that character, because in spite of Diddy's scrubby exterior, that is not easy.

I hope EVO takes into account a lot of what worked and didn't work in Apex. Smash 4 is a game that needs to loosen up a little, both in terms of community lab time and organizing tournaments. Expect the unexpected, and let the potential for that flourish. The top 8 roster set a relatively optimistic precedent for the variety and general potential balance of the meta and now that needs to be capitalized on.

Final thought - a lot of people are ready to point out how only 2 Diddys managed to make it to the top 8, but I feel like little thought has actually gone into the why, beyond just ZeRo and M2K being really good Diddys. If the outcome of the top 8 is a telltale of anything I'd like to posit the thought that ideally, every player went into the tournament with a very vindicated assumption that everyone would jump onto the character most likely to win, and that a majority of players were actually prepared for this fact and most likely adopted their meta solely around the most optimal way to handle that threat, but little to nothing else. In essence, it feels like we basically looked for trees and ignored the entire forest for the last three-five months talking about Diddy, even though players like J. Miller had already set an example against that with a character like Luigi (which despite False being the only Luigi player in the top brackets, seemed to be the cause for a lot of players going with Luigi into the tournament and performing admirably against quite a few Diddys).
 
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◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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First, concerning 2 stocks. In the top 8, it was shown that in 73% of games, the person who dropped the first stock ended up losing that game. Dabuz's matches also showed the "camping" mentality when presented with only 2 stocks. He made no effort to approach Pac-Man after losing game 1 to Abadango. He knew that the moment he dropped a stock he would be instantly behind, so his best bet was to simply sit back. I honestly think that 2 stocks is not going to treat the meta of this game that well, and the argument that it helps makes matches shorter is pointless. The finals for Smash 4 took 45 minutes less than for Melee, which is concerning since it was 2 vs 4 stocks
I'm on the fence about 2 stocks vs 3 stocks after Apex. I used to fully support 2, but that 73% stat is concerning, and the "camping mentality" was definitely alive & well in the Top 8. However, the game is still new, so it can reasonably be argued that we just need to learn to adapt.

I think it might be wise to go ahead and switch to 3, though. Aggressive play will inherently be more encouraged, and since we DO need to adapt to this new meta no matter what, matches will start going by faster as time goes on. I mean, hey, Melee matches are much shorter than they used to be.

Fourth, I do hope that people will begin to become open to customs. Seriously, there is a lot of things in Smash 4 that we have not untapped fully. The game is only 2 months hold. Let's make the game even more exciting for years to come.
For sure. During the Smash 3DS "era", I eventually decided to just use my PowerSaves to unlock all the customs, since unlocking them the official way is BS, and I can easily assure you that customs make the game much better. Not only do they offer up more depth, but they also further balance the game. Believe it or not, some characters actually fare better with their vanilla specials, while others become substantially better with altered ones.

Customs benefit the meta two-fold, so we need to do everything we can to make them legal. Of course, there are certain ones that will need to be banned, as they're broken as hell (like DK's Storm Punch and WFT's Steady Breathing), but still... we need customs legalized.
 

Nobie

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I'm on the fence about 2 stocks vs 3 stocks after Apex. I used to fully support 2, but that 73% stat is concerning, and the "camping mentality" was definitely alive & well in the Top 8. However, the game is still new, so it can reasonably be argued that we just need to learn to adapt.

I think it might be wise to go ahead and switch to 3, though. Aggressive play will inherently be more encouraged, and since we DO need to adapt to this new meta no matter what, matches will start going by faster as time goes on. I mean, hey, Melee matches are much shorter than they used to be.
I feel like stalling will happen whether it's 2 stocks or 3 stocks, and the only issue is if tournaments want to make sure that stalling matches can end more quickly (2 stocks with shorter time limits) or that the players will feel that stalling is too much of a risk that it simply isn't worth it (3 stocks with less time). Either one risks an "annoyance" of some kind, and that's not even taking into account the players's general styles. In some cases it doesn't matter if it's 1-stock 100 minutes or 1000 stocks 5 minutes, some players will aim for the timer victory. Some characters also thrive on more defensive play styles.

I think the real controlling factor when it comes to time is that if you're simply running away and not dealing much damage, should the opponent get in and start to close that gap you'll wish you had been fighting more and widening your lead.
 

Ticker

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The tournament was one of the most boring things I have ever watched. Very few of the top 8 matches were aggressive or very hype. Even Sky said that smash 4 was nearly unwatchable at certain points.


if you checked the twitch stream times melee top 8 ran longer by about 45 minutes. J/S
Melee played 11 more games
 
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◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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I know Dabuz vs. Abadango got a lot of flack for being "boring" but I have to disagree entirely, because it was one of my favorite matches of the entire event. Just because a match goes to time doesn't mean it's boring, especially when you get into how Dabuz and Abadango were trying to break each others' strategies down. Abadango especially took a few risks to try and trick Dabuz (the grab for example) that didn't pan out. You could almost literally see the gears moving in the players' heads, and every moment of it for me was tense and exciting, just not in the same way as watching someone string a 10-hit juggle into a KO.
I actually didn't even realize their first match almost went to time because it was so engaging.

I feel like stalling will happen whether it's 2 stocks or 3 stocks, and the only issue is if tournaments want to make sure that stalling matches can end more quickly (2 stocks with shorter time limits) or that the players will feel that stalling is too much of a risk that it simply isn't worth it (3 stocks with less time). Either one risks an "annoyance" of some kind, and that's not even taking into account the players's general styles. In some cases it doesn't matter if it's 1-stock 100 minutes or 1000 stocks 5 minutes, some players will aim for the timer victory. Some characters also thrive on more defensive play styles.

I think the real controlling factor when it comes to time is that if you're simply running away and not dealing much damage, should the opponent get in and start to close that gap you'll wish you had been fighting more and widening your lead.
That's actually most likely what we need: less time. 6 minutes is too much for 2 stocks to begin with if you ask me, but perhaps even 5 minutes like in For Glory is too much. Less time will make (most) players want to be more aggressive, and even when matches where people still want to play so defensively that time-outs happen, it won't be as big of a deal.

Maybe we should start doing 2 stock, 4 minutes? Most aggressive matches with 2 stocks end in under 2 minutes, anyway, so they likely won't be affected, and the matches that run long can only run for 4 minutes, which is usually about the maximum length Melee matches go on for, so that might be the ideal format to go with. If we switch to 3 stock and go with a shorter time limit, though, should we do 5 minutes or 6?

Edit: By the way, I think it might be worthy of making a thread about this. Thoughts on that?
 
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micstar615

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This has been said before so I'm going to reiterate: the game is still young. SSBWU has only been out for 3 months, the meta is still developing. Melee has been around for 14 years and is still at it's prime while SM4SH is still a baby. If we want the scene for this game to develop we have to NOT compare it to ANY previous smash game and just let the meta for this game run it's course. It'll either get far based on it's own merits, or sink like Brawl. Toxic attitudes from either side of the spectrum aren't helping anyone. Melee didn't start off the way it is now, it took years to develop into such a hype competitive game. Also, Zero was one of the most aggressive players in the tournament and he wiped the floor with everyone. This just shows that most players don't have the understanding of the game that Zero has and that if anything, an aggressive play style may be more rewarding than a poke fest. Also a lot of the top ssb4 players were top brawl players but not all of them have adapted to this game like Zero has.
 

Ticker

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I actually didn't even realize their first match almost went to time because it was so engaging.



That's actually most likely what we need: less time. 6 minutes is too much for 2 stocks to begin with if you ask me, but perhaps even 5 minutes like in For Glory is too much. Less time will make (most) players want to be more aggressive, and even when matches where people still want to play so defensively that time-outs happen, it won't be as big of a deal.

Maybe we should start doing 2 stock, 4 minutes? Most aggressive matches with 2 stocks end in under 2 minutes, anyway, so they likely won't be affected, and the matches that run long can only run for 4 minutes, which is usually about the maximum length Melee matches go on for, so that might be the ideal format to go with. If we switch to 3 stock and go with a shorter time limit, though, should we do 5 minutes or 6?
Less time means it's easier to time someone out
 

Ticker

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Except the majority of smash 4 matches aren't aggressive. I have never seen a top 8 game of smash 4 consistently finish in under 2 mins. Additionally, it's easier to time out with less time. 2 stocks doesn't change that. If I have a stock lead or percentage lead and i see 3 min on the clock, it is more feasible to continue playing run away while racking up damage for 3 mins rather than 5 min or 54 min.
 

BestTeaMaker

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Lowering the time limit doesn't lead to faster games. As weird as it sounds, raising the time limit actually helps games run faster. When you're at 1v1 stock and 4 minutes into the match for a 6 minute match, you're gonna end up trying to outcamp your opponent. But if you're at that point and it's 1v1, then you'll feel that there's more wiggle room to eke out a victory.

It's much harder to camp when there's a long time limit because even if you have the % lead, you can quickly lose a life still.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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Except the majority of smash 4 matches aren't aggressive. I have never seen a top 8 game of smash 4 consistently finish in under 2 mins. Additionally, it's easier to time out with less time. 2 stocks doesn't change that. If I have a stock lead or percentage lead and i see 3 min on the clock, it is more feasible to continue playing run away while racking up damage for 3 mins rather than 5 min or 54 min.
You're not watching the right tournaments, then. The majority of the streams I've watched have had monumentally more entertaining matches than Apex Top 8 did, namely S@X and Smash 4-Ever. Smash 4-Ever 9 in particular had very hype matches and had things happen that I didn't even know were possible, especially in the Grand Finals.

As for the "easier to time out" thing, that's only if you're willing to be a little ***** and run away for what's likely the majority of a match, which isn't going to fly in high-level play. Doing such can also be added to the list of stalling, thereby banning it. Perhaps it can be made so that if you intentionally try avoid attacking your opponent for more than 30 seconds, you automatically lose. Maybe even lower so people don't try to loophole it.
 
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Morbi

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I was pulling for 6WX; I hate Sonic as a character, but his story inspires me I suppose. ZeRo was always going to make it to Grand Finals and I am really proud of him. I just feel bad that he is considering Shulk or Falcon to become a crowd favorite. It would be nice if people were not pressured out of using characters or play-styles that they enjoy.

The Top Eight felt slower than usual, but in hind-sight it really was not so bad. The hype for Melee was far too prominent. Smash 4 was just off to a bad start with quarters being three out of five and Dabuz vs. Abandago as one of the first games. It was a really slow match-up, but an interesting one nonetheless. I got to see Little Mac in Grand Finals, that was a privilege. He did not do much... but he was there! The M2K and ZeRo match was a lot of fun, almost Melee-esque in terms of crowd energy.

Overall, I am excited to see how different the meta-game is from Apex 2015 to Evo 2015.
 

Smog Frog

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zero says he legitimately enjoys shulk, so i honestly think he would have switched without crowd pressure
 

ninrok

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I was pulling for 6WX; I hate Sonic as a character, but his story inspires me I suppose. ZeRo was always going to make it to Grand Finals and I am really proud of him. I just feel bad that he is considering Shulk or Falcon to become a crowd favorite. It would be nice if people were not pressured out of using characters or play-styles that they enjoy.
I agree, even if its a character I don't necessarily want to win, I'd rather the person playing said character stick to their guns.

That said, I get it, too - I've played some characters that are considered the best in other games, and while I was never at a point where I was winning all that much, it can be really irritating being "that guy" or hearing how braindead you or the character you chose is because of whatever reason fits for that week.

End of the day, people are human, and you really have to want to be the "villain" to accept that. Otherwise, all the jeering can get to you.

Not that tI know whether he was fine with it or not, mind you; I've never even met ZeRo so who knows :p

The Top Eight felt slower than usual, but in hind-sight it really was not so bad. The hype for Melee was far too prominent. Smash 4 was just off to a bad start with quarters being three out of five and Dabuz vs. Abandago as one of the first games. It was a really slow match-up, but an interesting one nonetheless. I got to see Little Mac in Grand Finals, that was a privilege. He did not do much... but he was there! The M2K and ZeRo match was a lot of fun, almost Melee-esque in terms of crowd energy.

Overall, I am excited to see how different the meta-game is from Apex 2015 to Evo 2015.
Agreed, really. My only real complaint - and what probably led to things taking so long in the first place - was having so many matches be 3 out of 5. That, I felt, was pretty goofy to do, and along with all the coaching, prolonged the sets.

EDIT:

zero says he legitimately enjoys shulk, so i honestly think he would have switched without crowd pressure
Oh, well there is that, then. :p
 
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Ticker

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You're not watching the right tournaments, then. The majority of the streams I've watched have had monumentally more entertaining matches than Apex Top 8 did, namely S@X and Smash 4-Ever. Smash 4-Ever 9 in particular had very hype matches and had things happen that I didn't even know were possible, especially in the Grand Finals.

As for the "easier to time out" thing, that's only if you're willing to be a little ***** and run away for what's likely the majority of a match, which isn't going to fly in high-level play. Doing such can also be added to the list of stalling, thereby banning it. Perhaps it can be made so that if you intentionally try avoid attacking your opponent for more than 30 seconds, you automatically lose. Maybe even lower so people don't try to loophole it.
Except Apex had alot more top players in it than the majority of the S@x matches. Dabuz clearly showed that "willing to be a little ***** and run away" clearly works. Unless people just don't know how to counter it which is doubtful due to smash 4's mechanics. Adding rules like that is so arbitrary and only is useful to complicate things. How would it work with a character like olimar or any other projectile character? Would hits with projectiles count? Those just too much fluff to enforce a rule like that. Unless something drastic happens to smash 4, I only see it getting more defensive. Now this isn't a bad thing as many enjoy gameplay like that. The issue you will run into is how to keep spectators watching.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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Except Apex had alot more top players in it than the majority of the S@x matches. Dabuz clearly showed that "willing to be a little ***** and run away" clearly works. Unless people just don't know how to counter it which is doubtful due to smash 4's mechanics. Adding rules like that is so arbitrary and only is useful to complicate things. How would it work with a character like olimar or any other projectile character? Would hits with projectiles count? Those just too much fluff to enforce a rule like that. Unless something drastic happens to smash 4, I only see it getting more defensive. Now this isn't a bad thing as many enjoy gameplay like that. The issue you will run into is how to keep spectators watching.
Except Dabuz didn't even do that. If you think he was running away the entire time, then you weren't paying attention. He only ran away when the clock was ticking down to its final seconds.
 

Ticker

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By run away style gameplay I don't mean that final second stay away, I'm talking about the strong keepaway game he plays. Watch his olimar gameplay. Run back a little bit, throw some pikmin, bait a grab, followup, than reset back into neutral in which he continues to throw pikmin until his opponent does something punishable. Smash 4's gameplay revolves around quick 2-3 hit combos and a reset to neutral. Often times it's not even two hits. Why be aggresive for 10-20% when you can throw a projectile and wait for a slip up, than punish with a hit. This isn't gonna change, and more than likley will go the route of brawl in which the game get's more defensive as time goes on as it is the most viable gameplay strategy.
 

[Deuce]

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Except Dabuz didn't even do that. If you think he was running away the entire time, then you weren't paying attention. He only ran away when the clock was ticking down to its final seconds.
You're missing his point. His assertion was that if you lower the time limit it will make playing passively a MORE viable strat. You will get more matches like Dabuz'
 

Jigglymaster

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-Lack of Miis of any kind was even more dissapointed. Were they banned from the start or just no one got the courage to use them? Because :4miibrawl: is really underlooked and so is :4miigun: to a lesser extent.
No offense, but if you're talking about default mii fighters then no, they're not underlooked at all, they're actually are that bad. Default Mii Brawler is on the same level of terribleness as Mii Swordfighter. Nobody is really underlooking Mii Brawler however you look at it, with customs he's one of the best, without he's one of the worst. I mean, thats what happens when you take away his ability to kill, remove his recovery, and in return give him an Up B that covers less distance than Links that can't even snap to the ledge or grab it backwards.

There is a reason nobody used them at APEX because they are limited and terrible characters without any customization.
 
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◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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You're missing his point. His assertion was that if you lower the time limit it will make playing passively a MORE viable strat. You will get more matches like Dabuz'
1) Like I said, aggressive matches usually last under 2 minutes.

2) I said that a rule can be enforced to severely limit the ability to run the clock out.

I'm not missing any point at all. I know what he's saying, but I've already covered the bases.
 

S0 B00sted

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To be honest, Apex is such a ****ty tournament and I'm not happy with the decisions they made with Smash Bros. for Wii U. It's poorly run and that was only made worse by this year's situation.

I really hate that Apex is used as the standard for rule sets. I really hope custom moves are legal at Evo along with Miis. Not allowing custom moves was shear laziness. They could easily have requested that Nintendo provide Wii Us that had all the custom moves unlocked but they didn't.

Also the Melee chant was just downright disrespectful to Zero. I feel bad for him. I understand that people were excited for their game and were sick of waiting and I agree that both games shouldn't have been on the same stream, but Melee took longer than SSB for Wii U did. Another poor decision by Apex. Zero shouldn't have been disrespected for something that wasn't his fault.

Also, brace yourselves for a ****-storm at Evo. A lot of people really don't want this game at Evo.
 
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Morbi

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To be honest, Apex is such a ****ty tournament and I'm not happy with the decisions they made with Smash Bros. for Wii U. It's poorly run and that was only made worse by this year's situation.

I really hate that Apex is used as the standard for rule sets. I really hope custom moves are legal at Evo along with Miis. Not allowing custom moves was shear laziness. They could easily have requested that Nintendo provide Wii Us that had all the custom moves unlocked but they didn't.

Also the Melee chant was just downright disrespectful to Zero. I feel bad for him. I understand that people were excited for their game and were sick of waiting and I agree that both games shouldn't have been on the same stream, but Melee took longer than SSB for Wii U did. Another poor decision by Apex. Zero shouldn't have been disrespected for something that wasn't his fault.

Also, brace yourselves for a ****-storm at Evo. A lot of people really don't want this game at Evo.
Correct, the Smash 4 hate is still only within the Smash community at this very moment. Once the game is exposed to the more broad FGC audience, we are probably going to have to deal with a lot of the same criticism. A lot of people are already disappointed that Smash got two EVO slots, so they are going to go into the event with preconceived notions about the game.
 

Team Plasma N

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i really really REALLY hate the "pick a top tier" mentality that ppl have when a new fighting game comes out. most fighting games tier list are no way near correct in the first 6 months, smash 4 is no different.
But even after the tier list is solid, players still have that "pick a top tier" mentality. In Melee I usually just see Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marths because of it :/. Barely any character diversity.
 

HeavyLobster

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Keep in mind that Dabuz wasn't able to keep Diddy out at all as Rosalina, and for that matter Sheik could get in pretty easily on Rosa too, she just couldn't kill very well due to Rosa's floatiness. Olimar was effective against M2K mainly because M2K was playing the matchup wrong and fishing for grabs instead of mixing in aerial pokes. Also, the better characters in the game are plenty capable of getting more than 10-20% when they get in. It isn't always reliable but the characters with good reward can generally get 25-40% provided they read what the opponent does after the guaranteed 10-20%, and some can get even more than that. It is still true that characters who can camp generally have an advantage over those that can't, but it's not as if Sheik and Diddy can't get in on people, nor is it the case that they have no incentive to try.
 

Blazing Ambition

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Messages
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Overall, I actually enjoyed Sm4sh as Apex. The microgame was real this time aound. Bo5 was a little... eh, but it was nice seeing abadango go to work as pacman. No falcons to be seen, but falcon will never win a major tournament so it's ok. :ohwell: Other than that, I'm a little miffed about the limitation on Miis. Fighter would have been a nice change of pace, though I'm not sure if I'd be able to watch gunner vs Rosalina. *shrugs*


Side note: I also wish Sm4sh had it's own salty suite. Omegatyrant vs Gungnir would have been a set for the ages.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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You've yet to explain how. Please, tell me all about how matches can't possibly end in under 2 minutes in Smash 4. Please tell me how Dabuz was indeed running away the entire match instead of playing in a game with two defensive-oriented characters. By all means, tell me how creating a rule like I pitched wouldn't discourage running away from a match -- I'd love to hear how being threatened with an automatic loss would do such.

Correct, the Smash 4 hate is still only within the Smash community at this very moment. Once the game is exposed to the more broad FGC audience, we are probably going to have to deal with a lot of the same criticism. A lot of people are already disappointed that Smash got two EVO slots, so they are going to go into the event with preconceived notions about the game.
Depends. Are we going to allow the same stupid ruleset to be at EVO? Or are we going to take a stand and do everything we can to ensure that Smash 4 gets the treatment it deserves?
 
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Smog Frog

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i honestly think that infractions should be handed out for game bashing because the melee vs brawl debates of old were ****ing terrible and i dont want to see that happen again


@above: the winner is the player with the lower %, so you could just get some safe pokes in and run away the rest of the match
 

Ticker

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Messages
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Depends. Are we going to allow the same stupid ruleset to be at EVO? Or are we going to take a stand and do everything we can to ensure that Smash 4 gets the treatment it deserves?
Based off the FGC and their thoughts on Apex the few people I've talked to enjoyed Melee was far more enjoyable to watch than smash 4. Many FGC people enjoy watching Melee because of a variety of things that people have already talked about. What smash 4 has to do is offer something different to melee. As of right now, it's initial community is essentially riding off of melee and brawls previous competitive community. Smash 4 needs to show that it can be just as exciting, or offer an enjoyable experience that is different enough from melee to warrant it's competitive community.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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@above: the winner is the player with the lower %, so you could just get some safe pokes in and run away the rest of the match
If you're willing to try that for a while, sure. If it's set to something lower than 30 seconds, though, you're likely not going to get away with it unless you're vastly more skilled than your opponent. Believe it or not, running away and getting away with it takes skill.

Just so we can get over and done with that possibility, though, how about I amend my hypothetical rule? If it's clear that you're intentionally trying to stall out a match before the final 30 seconds, then you automatically lose.

Honestly, this is getting way too dramatic for something so simple.
 

◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ

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Based off the FGC and their thoughts on Apex the few people I've talked to enjoyed Melee was far more enjoyable to watch than smash 4. Many FGC people enjoy watching Melee because of a variety of things that people have already talked about. What smash 4 has to do is offer something different to melee. As of right now, it's initial community is essentially riding off of melee and brawls previous competitive community. Smash 4 needs to show that it can be just as exciting, or offer an enjoyable experience that is different enough from melee to warrant it's competitive community.
I enjoyed watching Melee more myself. Smash 4 Top 8 wasn't nearly as enjoyable as it could have been, and for a wide variety of reasons (quite a few of which weren't even gameplay-related). It wasn't a proper display of what the game is offensively capable of outside of a few matches, and it was frustrating to watch because of that. Seriously, half the time people were playing like it was Brawl.

We need to take measures to ensure that kind of stuff doesn't happen in the future.
 
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