Post Apex 2015 thoughts

[Jebus244]

What kind of practical measures could anyone take to ensure that smashers do not implement a certain play-style?

Lab it up! People need to take these campy play styles to the lab and find the hardcounter. Maybe it's just one character, and maybe they aren't even that high on the tier list, but if they hard counter the campy strats that make certain characters high tier, problem solved. It will discourage picking that character or at least discourage that strat.

If a hard counter doesn't exist then

 

[Ur2Slow]

Here's what I thought about Apex's first smash wii u tourney:

1. Pools were actually interesting to watch, but top 8 was boring. Pools were going by way faster than top 8 with its Bo3 rule. The Bo5 rule in top 8 made many of the matches drag (and I'm not even going to get started with the other drag problems that weren't even gameplay related). They should really experiment more with the game's rules before EVO (ie: a time limit that forces camping players to be more aggressive, Bo3 being the staple for ALL matches, Finals having 3 stock instead of Bo5, etc.).

2. The amount of characters that placed in the tournament was diverse. Pacman, Olimar, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, and even greninja were all characters that many thought would reach the top 8. Sure, diddy kong won the tournament like a lot of people expected, but he didn't dominate the tournament (only 3-4 placed well, all being dedicated diddy kong players). He doesn't need a significant nerf (yet), he's just the easiest character to use. Sheik and sonic also didn't dominate like a lot of people expected.

3. It should not be forced down the melee crowd's throat. Smash 4's top 8 should (for now) separate itself from melee's top 8. Only more drama and tensions will rise if X game has to wait for Y game. And I really don't want to see another "Brawl" where people just had some of the worst arguing with each other due to preference.

And just one thing that everyone should know: the game is only 2 months old. There still needs to be more experimentation/time before thinking that smash 4's competitive scene was accurately represented in only one tournament. Melee's scene developed to what it is today after years and years of playing, and even Brawl took a while to be considered what it is today.

 

[Ur2Slow]

Here's what I thought about Apex's first smash wii u tourney:

1. Pools were actually interesting to watch, but top 8 was boring. Pools were going by way faster than top 8 with its Bo3 rule. The Bo5 rule in top 8 made many of the matches drag (and I'm not even going to get started with the other drag problems that weren't even gameplay related). They should really experiment more with the game's rules before EVO (ie: a time limit that forces camping players to be more aggressive, Bo3 being the staple for ALL matches, Finals having 3 stock instead of Bo5, etc.).

2. The amount of characters that placed in the tournament was diverse. Pacman, Olimar, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, and even greninja were all characters that many thought wouldn't reach the top 8. Sure, diddy kong won the tournament like a lot of people expected, but he didn't dominate the tournament (only 3-4 placed well, all being dedicated diddy kong players). He doesn't need a significant nerf (yet), he's just the easiest character to use. Sheik and sonic also didn't dominate like a lot of people expected.

3. It should not be forced down the melee crowd's throat. Smash 4's top 8 should (for now) separate itself from melee's top 8. Only more drama and tensions will rise if X game has to wait for Y game. And I really don't want to see another "Brawl" where people just had some of the worst arguing with each other due to preference.

And just one thing that everyone should know: the game is only 2 months old. There still needs to be more experimentation/time before thinking that smash 4's competitive scene was accurately represented in only one tournament. Melee's scene developed to what it is today after years and years of playing, and even Brawl took a while to be considered what it is today.

 

[Neoleo21]

Here's what I thought about Apex's first smash wii u tourney:

1. Pools were actually interesting to watch, but top 8 was boring. Pools were going by way faster than top 8 with its Bo3 rule. The Bo5 rule in top 8 made many of the matches drag (and I'm not even going to get started with the other drag problems that weren't even gameplay related). They should really experiment more with the game's rules before EVO (ie: a time limit that forces camping players to be more aggressive, Bo3 being the staple for ALL matches, Finals having 3 stock instead of Bo5, etc.).

2. The amount of characters that placed in the tournament was diverse. Pacman, Olimar, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, and even greninja were all characters that many thought would reach the top 8. Sure, diddy kong won the tournament like a lot of people expected, but he didn't dominate the tournament (only 3-4 placed well, all being dedicated diddy kong players). He doesn't need a significant nerf (yet), he's just the easiest character to use. Sheik and sonic also didn't dominate like a lot of people expected.

3. It should not be forced down the melee crowd's throat. Smash 4's top 8 should (for now) separate itself from melee's top 8. Only more drama and tensions will rise if X game has to wait for Y game. And I really don't want to see another "Brawl" where people just had some of the worst arguing with each other due to preference.

And just one thing that everyone should know: the game is only 2 months old. There still needs to be more experimentation/time before thinking that smash 4's competitive scene was accurately represented in only one tournament. Melee's scene developed to what it is today after years and years of playing, and even Brawl took a while to be considered what it is today.

1. Problem was mostly having Quarters and Semis being Bo5 (I mean was Melee even Bo5 in these rounds?). Shorter Time Limits encourage Campy play, something more like the Fandango Clause would be more viable though for fixing camping issue.

2. Diddy kinda does need a nerf, ZeRo used many of his tools but not all of them, and that's really not good in perspective considering its ZeRo. The character diversity was nice, but I'd like a better Stage list, 3 Stock and Custom moves thank you very much.

3. Blame GIMR for insisting that both brackets be held on VGbootcamp's Stream, what you're suggesting is backing down to the whims of a few immature individuals, that's unnacceptable for any community.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

But, no where did I say that the game has already plateau'd. What I did say was, given the current circumstances/metagame/lifespan of the game, the top players chose a more conservative playstyle. And due to this, it was a safe bet (for me, at least) to believe that they were fleshing out these characters' playstyles in the correct direction. It could be the wrong direction, but there's no reason to believe that currently, and what I was initially focused on were those that were saying that this direction is indefinitely the wrong direction, and there's an absolutely correct direction leading to a "fast-paced playstyle."

Customs are a viable option, I just haven't seen anyone talk seriously about introducing them into the competitive scene. This thread isn't really the place to talk about it though, and I haven't followed the competitive talk of customs so I'll remain quiet on the matter.


I guess throwing around the word "change" can mean different levels of severity, so I apologize for not being more specific. I used "change" in the sense that our current impressions of characters or gameplay would be invalidated due to this new "change." A young game is obviously malleable and will develop and expand, I'm just of the belief that we already have built a small foundation that we can build from. My issues earlier in this thread were with those that were under the belief that this small foundation we have developed needs to be shattered and must be rebuilt with something new ("stop playing the game this way, the game must be played in another way").

I think you and me have the right idea on this subject.

More or less, conservative or not I think it's a wait and see thing even if some matches at APEX were meh at best.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think it's interesting how you pointed out Ultrachen's views on Smash 4, about how he actually loves that there is a bigger emphasis on the neutral game in Smash 4 and others aspects of 4. There was a post on Reddit from Greward, a Mega Man/Mii Brawler from Europe who expressed his distaste for the Smash scene in the US when he was at Apex, especially with how little people actually understood the Smash meta.

I feel that people who have had years and years of playing Smash, and any other fighting game out there, have an understanding not only of what is a really good play, but what is also respectable. Simply put, the people who are loudly voicing their distaste for the games and blindly cheering for Melee are those who don't understand either game.

It's funny in a way. If it weren't for Brawl, Street Fighter 4, Blazblue, and Persona 4 Arena, I'd probably feel the same as the Melee fans. But it's due to Brawl and SF4 that I've grown to highly respect the neutral position and the importance that comes along with it.

Similarly, I notice that I can spot when a player makes a mistake much more prominently in any fighting game, but especially in Melee. Why? Because due to the technical application of the game, and how "momentum-based" it is, one mistake can often cost a match.

For instance, during Mango vs Leffen, I realized Mango was not on point with his wavedashes. In fact, that was a big reason why he lost stocks that he should have kept, because he would air dodge in place and Leffen took full advantage of them. However, there was no crowd response to Mango's mistakes and not even the commentators (which should be commenting on those mistakes) brought it up either.

I can agree that a big issue with spectators is they have no real appreciation for the neutral game because they don't understand how it works.

 

[Nekoo]

I loved the Apex , it was great .Every Tournament was great ! (That 2vs2 Zss Sonic vs Ness Wario , the last kill Back Trown with Sonic on Ness ... )

But now i can't stand anymore any melee player , it's official .
How come ?
During the Smash 4 tournament there was just a lot people who was screaming " Melee , Melee" and Never in my life I felt so bad for the player ... and especially for Zero while a win his tournament a lot of person booing and screaming for melee ...

Really guys , i feel bad for those people who live in the past ... They can't even let Smash 4 have his chance , they already kill him ... Now sorry guys but i'm gone .

 

[AnchorTea]

Why are people glad that only two Diddy's made top 8?

You do realize that a Diddy made the #1 spot, right?

 

[Timbers]

Maaaaan...

Why are people glad that only two Diddy's made top 8?

People are more appreciative of the fact that there were a lot of different characters in Top 8. If it were 2 Diddy's and 6 Sonics then nobody would be glad.

You do realize that a Diddy made the #1 spot, right?

A diddy that's being piloted by the strongest player in Sm4sh currently. Dude trains for hella hours and has been 2 stocking everyone for 3 months straight. It'd be an incredibly bold opinion for anyone to have believed that he wouldn't take #1.

 

[moofpi]

Side note: I also wish Sm4sh had it's own salty suite. Omegatyrant vs Gungnir would have been a set for the ages.

They did, and it was going to be the first thing streamed on Friday night, but they had to rush it and use the hotel's 4g which made the stream keep going out and was unwatchable. None of it was recorded. Which leaves me pretty salty.

Abadango vs Koolaid? Are you kidding me? I was so hyped. Shofu vs The World? Okay. NickRiddle and 6WX? OKAY.

 

[ninrok]

I can agree that a big issue with spectators is they have no real appreciation for the neutral game because they don't understand how it works.

Indeed, it's a problem that comes across in a lot of games really. Though I guess to be fair, that's how it is in any spectator event/sport. People don't cheer when a QB calls an audible in perfect response to the defense's setup in football - they go mad when he throws a 60 yard bomb for a TD.

Abadango vs Koolaid? Are you kidding me? I was so hyped. Shofu vs The World? Okay. NickRiddle and 6WX? OKAY.

Yooooo whaaaaaaat? I didn't know this was a thing! Fffffffffffffff I would have LOVED to see this :-(

 

[Timbers]

They did, and it was going to be the first thing streamed on Friday night, but they had to rush it and use the hotel's 4g which made the stream keep going out and was unwatchable. None of it was recorded. Which leaves me pretty salty.

*snip*

Abadango vs Koolaid? Are you kidding me? I was so hyped. Shofu vs The World? Okay. NickRiddle and 6WX? OKAY.

wow I'm actually mad. Would have been some awesome matches to see.

 

[HeavyLobster]

As far as a Diddy nerf goes, I don't really want his combo game or approach tools to be nerfed too heavily, though Uair definitely needs to be changed. It's fast, powerful, has a ridiculous hitbox, and has hardly any lag, meaning it's stupidly easy to frame trap with it. Uair frame traps are a much bigger problem than the actual Dthrow->Uair combo itself, which is fairly easy to DI out of at kill %s. If I were patching Diddy I'd make Uair laggier, both in the air and while landing, and have a smaller hitbox, and I'd also make both Dthrow and Fair do 1% less damage to make his damage racking a bit weaker. He'd still be a very good offensive and defensive character, but it'd take a bit more work to build damage with him, and his ability to get Uair kills would be more read reliant and less braindead.

 

[AnchorTea]

Maaaaan...

People are more appreciative of the fact that there were a lot of different characters in Top 8. If it were 2 Diddy's and 6 Sonics then nobody would be glad.

A diddy that's being piloted by the strongest player in Sm4sh currently. Dude trains for hella hours and has been 2 stocking everyone for 3 months straight. It'd be an incredibly bold opinion for anyone to have believed that he wouldn't take #1.

Very well then, I stand incorrect.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I wanted the pacman to win it got boring after he got knocked out the rest of the remaining characters were pretty standard.

 

[Ur2Slow]

1. Problem was mostly having Quarters and Semis being Bo5 (I mean was Melee even Bo5 in these rounds?). Shorter Time Limits encourage Campy play, something more like the Fandango Clause would be more viable though for fixing camping issue.

2. Diddy kinda does need a nerf, ZeRo used many of his tools but not all of them, and that's really not good in perspective considering its ZeRo. The character diversity was nice, but I'd like a better Stage list, 3 Stock and Custom moves thank you very much.

3. Blame GIMR for insisting that both brackets be held on VGbootcamp's Stream, what you're suggesting is backing down to the whims of a few immature individuals, that's unnacceptable for any community.

1. I guess it just comes down to whatever stops the campy play style from being viable.

2. Don't get me wrong, I still feel he needs a nerf of some kind, just currently not a very big one (maybe just makes the up air less annoying to play against). I agree that more stages should've been played (at the very least, more omega stages. Smashville was getting repetitive)

3. What I meant was to have the top 8 for both games on seperate days in order to satify both crowds. That way the immature side of both communities don't get mad at each other, and both games get their spotlight on stream.

 

[Aygent]

To those who doubt this game, go watch the beast 5 smash wii u grand finals. Fast foreword to the final match and enjoy. And I think if you give players a stock or 2 more, they will play wayyyyy more aggressive. The only thing I think melee has over Sm4sh is player personalities . I don't take any credit away from any of the current big players, but there's a reason why people enjoy watching some of the melee players play. It's because they really put on a show playing and away from playing. Give this scene a little bit longer, and you will see pure bliss.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As far as a Diddy nerf goes, I don't really want his combo game or approach tools to be nerfed too heavily, though Uair definitely needs to be changed. It's fast, powerful, has a ridiculous hitbox, and has hardly any lag, meaning it's stupidly easy to frame trap with it. Uair frame traps are a much bigger problem than the actual Dthrow->Uair combo itself, which is fairly easy to DI out of at kill %s. If I were patching Diddy I'd make Uair laggier, both in the air and while landing, and have a smaller hitbox, and I'd also make both Dthrow and Fair do 1% less damage to make his damage racking a bit weaker. He'd still be a very good offensive and defensive character, but it'd take a bit more work to build damage with him, and his ability to get Uair kills would be more read reliant and less braindead.

The only thing I think is legit too good with him is his Uair.

Otherwise I think he is pretty fair all things considered.

 

[Conda]

But, no where did I say that the game has already plateau'd. What I did say was, given the current circumstances/metagame/lifespan of the game, the top players chose a more conservative playstyle. And due to this, it was a safe bet (for me, at least) to believe that they were fleshing out these characters' playstyles in the correct direction. It could be the wrong direction, but there's no reason to believe that currently, and what I was initially focused on were those that were saying that this direction is indefinitely the wrong direction, and there's an absolutely correct direction leading to a "fast-paced playstyle."

Customs are a viable option, I just haven't seen anyone talk seriously about introducing them into the competitive scene. This thread isn't really the place to talk about it though, and I haven't followed the competitive talk of customs so I'll remain quiet on the matter.


I guess throwing around the word "change" can mean different levels of severity, so I apologize for not being more specific. I used "change" in the sense that our current impressions of characters or gameplay would be invalidated due to this new "change." A young game is obviously malleable and will develop and expand, I'm just of the belief that we already have built a small foundation that we can build from. My issues earlier in this thread were with those that were under the belief that this small foundation we have developed needs to be shattered and must be rebuilt with something new ("stop playing the game this way, the game must be played in another way").

The hyperbolic simplification of things has to stop. Just because you saw dabuz and abadango in the top 8 doesnt mean smash 4 is slow and campy.

Things in TF2, LoL, and Starcraft change when different classes and strategies are used. You are placing a silly amount of weight on the playstyle and characters a couple of players utilized.

Smash 4 allows for variable pace, like many competitive games. Not understanding this is a vital misstep and behind most kneejerk reactions. People want Smash 4 to be Brawl-esque so it can be an easy target to insult again for another 6 years, but Smash 4 is very different.

People saw a few slow sets and suddenly Smash 4 = Brawl. The rest of Smash 4 - pool and top 16 - were much faster and did not primarily feature Rosalina and campy strategies.

Some patience and tied tongues would be a good first step for everyone who doesn't appreciate Smash 4's intricacies.

 

[Timbers]

Just because you saw dabuz and abadango in the top 8 doesnt mean smash 4 is slow and campy.

I didn't say that at all.

Quite the opposite actually. I didn't engage this thread until contesting against a few choice individuals as they were calling Top 8's playstyles "Brawl-esque" and that everyone needs to play a "fast-paced style" instead.

 

[dguy6789]

Top 8 was incredibly boring. I really hope the metagame evolves so that Smash 4 doesn't become another Brawl.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I wonder...if you took footage of the more hype matches, scrubbed the audio and blacked out the bits with player names and cams, would it still be hype?

Who knows? Maybe. I certainly believe it wouldn't be AS hype, but it would probably still be fun to watch.

It might get a little boring after a while, though, seeing the same characters with the same edgeguards and the same combos without the things you mentioned. Even with that, it does get kind of static over time, only being mixed up by the occasional unexpected crazy happening that you likely won't see again. I can't help but wonder how many more years Melee will go on before it becomes overcentralized because of this. (In other words, when will we finally reach 20XX?)

 

[DavemanCozy]

So what should I comment on? The Wii U matches or the awful experience that tournament was in general? Seriously, I know this is the competitive discussion group, and I probably should be posting about the metagame. But you know what? This tournament honestly reflects very little on the current players of Wii U and the matchups, and has to do with why the schedule of the tournament was SOOOO bad.

This tournament ended up as an awful disaster that could've and should've been prevented. But nooooo, of course whoever chose the venue did not conduct a thorough inspection of the building at all. Of all the tournaments I have attended, this was the worst experience I've ever had. Not a single day did I wake up excited, because every morning it was trouble.

Why am I bringing this up? Because this chaos of the first day was what led to the over-scheduled matches that caused frustration in many people and the most awfully seeded Smash brackets I have EVER seen in my entire tournament life. Nakat + False and Ally + Boss in the same Wii U doubles pool? What the hell is up with Nakat going up against half of his crew in Round 2 Wii U singles pools? And what about Larry or Nietono eliminating each others region members as well? This wouldn't have happened if their original plan had involved a venue they properly analyzed, not some structural disaster waiting to fall on 1000+ people.

I kid you not with R2 pools: One bracket consisted of nearly all the Canadian players, another had half of Norcal, the other had 3/4 of the East Coast, one had nearly all of Japan... what in the hell was up with that seeding. It only made sense to me after I kept reminding myself they were pressed for time.

I was at this tournament. You can ask DEHF, M@v, Tearbear, Eddy Mexico, Nakat, Ally... this was the biggest fraud of a tourney I've ever been to and tells me nothing about player records due to the awful seeding, dq-happy pool captains and terrible last-minute chaos. The only thing this reflects in the Wii U meta is an awfully seeded bracket with inaccurate records of players

 

[Roukiske]

There are some really good ranged (or "spacing") attacks in this game. Because of this I don't think campy play will go away completely. Regardless of whether or not it is high tier or low tier, some characters in this game benefit from ranged play a lot and that's a mechanic I think the devs wanted to explore. If I had a Hadouken that was useful I'm gonna use it.

Even if the campy play became low tier, there's still a chance for that low tier to make it to Top 8 (At this moment I really think every character can make Top 8). We can't hate on someone with a campy play style for making Top 8, they beat out a lot of good people because of it. Obviously this is heavy on the character and match-up. I highly doubt two Falcons would play campy (don't know how you'd do that), so its just something that's in this game.

This Apex GF wasn't super exciting for me, but I've seen GF that were really exciting (ZSS and Falcon). It happens with ANY game, not every tournament has to be exciting, and not every tournament will be.

 

[Ulevo]

The only thing I think is legit too good with him is his Uair.

Otherwise I think he is pretty fair all things considered.

His down tilt could be toned down also.