Pokemon X and Y: Competitive Gen VI Discussion

[#HBC | Laundry]

Mega-Gengar is going to suck.

If a pokemon ability said "Get a free Mean Look when you attack" it would be a bad ability.

Losing levitate is a huge deal, though having it on switching in is nice.

If you switch it in, sub, then switch out just to gain Shadow-tag, either you're opponent is really bad to allow you to waste that much time and not gain some sort of advantage, or you are losing tempo.

Its exciting when you first hear it, but when you look what it means in game and when you compare it to the likes of Mega-Garchomp you can certainly see the huge drawback. I'd rather just use Normal Gengar.

Apparently you've never played against Shadow Tag Chanderp then. This is that on steroids.

Like, your entire argument is that "Oh he doesn't get an item and they'll switch, radarada". Okay, so they switch on your Shadow Tag. Unless it's like TTar, Scizor, or the rare Weavile, you have absolutely nothing to fear by switching out. Suddenly, your Gengar is now a 130 base speed Shadow Tag user that can revenge kill anything at will and you're willing to use Chandelure, something that has to run Choice Scarf just to match Gengar's capabilities, over it? Just because of the chance that they switch out when you're not forced to Mega Evolve in the first place?

Hell, Mega-Garchomp isn't even that likely to be good. Getting Sand Force means jack in a meta where TTar sacrifices a lot by holding a Smooth Rock (sacrifices the power of choice items, the sustainability of lefties, or the usefulness of a Chople Berry).

 

[mood4food77]

mega gengar can now survive 2 bullet punches from CB scizor even with SR damage

 

[Circa]

Apparently you've never played against Shadow Tag Chanderp then. This is that on steroids.

Like, your entire argument is that "Oh he doesn't get an item and they'll switch, radarada". Okay, so they switch on your Shadow Tag. Unless it's like TTar, Scizor, or the rare Weavile, you have absolutely nothing to fear by switching out.

Two of those three aren't really even an issue anymore. If you Substitute and Mega Evolve when you come in and they immediately switch to Tyranitar, it dies to Focus Blast because you're now faster than even its Choice Scarf variant. And you're still under your Substitute, unless of course you miss the first time. The only build that stands any sort of chance is specially defensive, and even then you can OHKO after SR about 40ish% of the time.

You also outpace Weavile now.

Scizor can still be problematic though.

 

[CRASHiC]

No TTar still counters him. TTar doesn't need choice scarf to counter him. In fact frail choice sets are the only ones that don't counter Gengar. I went through the calcs last night with Ulti.

You guys are living in magic pixie dust land where they won't have a counter and they'll stay in and let you get shadowtag off, and switching out a pokemon who took stealth rock and sub isn't a huge deal.

Scizor is not an issue anymore. It's a clean kill for Gengar no question unless you actually plan on carrying Poison stab even though Gengar has no issue fighting Togetic and still can't dent Blissey assuming she's fairy

There are still numerous counters for Gengar and losing tempo is huge, varying depending on the speed of the metagame. If Mega-Gengar was the only Mega-pokemon in this gen with its breakneck speed, I can guarantee you it would be BL.

Losing tempo is huge. you just spent the last 3 turns doing nothing. You switched in, you subed, then you switched out. By that time, if I'm half competent, I would have amassed some sort of an advantage over you. Shadowtag Gengar does something later, compare to other megas that come in and do something immediately.

 

[Wave⁂]

So for people who are having trouble keeping up, this is how Mega Gengar works:

1. Switch into an Earthquake or Close Combat OR switch in after losing a Pokemon
2. You are not allowed to predict a switch (?) and attack (?) here, you must Substitute (?)
3. The opponent will always switch (?)
4. You must now switch once again (?) and not attack (?) by utilizing your Substitute (?)
5. You must switch into something that loses to their Pokemon (?)
6. You are not allowed to revenge kill with Mega Gengar after this point (?)

Okay maybe I don't get it either

 

[Circa]

No TTar still counters him. TTar doesn't need choice scarf to counter him. In fact frail choice sets are the only ones that don't counter Gengar. I went through the calcs last night with Ulti.

I'm assuming you're going off a support set then? Basically anything else is OHKO'd.

As for Scizor, I was speaking more from the perspective of using Sub first and happening to not have HP Fire, and also not knowing what set it is beforehand. There are some weird guessing games that can be had there (granted, I don't think most people would switch in with Scizor to begin with, so the point is moot).

I haven't heard anything yet about Blissey changing to Normal/Fairy, so I was assuming it was still just Normal. Part of me could see them leaving Blissey be, so I'm holding my breath on this one.

I'm thinking if Gengar's standard set is still Substitute+SB+FB+whatever, then that whatever is probably going to be Pain Split more often than not in Mega Gengar's case.

 

[mood4food77]

it could also be disable, which can royally screw over his "counters" more-so than any other move there could

greninja apparently gets hydro pump, nasty plot, and dark pulse as level up move

with only a few pokes resisting this, greninja looks destined for OU

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

No TTar still counters him. TTar doesn't need choice scarf to counter him. In fact frail choice sets are the only ones that don't counter Gengar. I went through the calcs last night with Ulti.

You guys are living in magic pixie dust land where they won't have a counter and they'll stay in and let you get shadowtag off, and switching out a pokemon who took stealth rock and sub isn't a huge deal.

Scizor is not an issue anymore. It's a clean kill for Gengar no question unless you actually plan on carrying Poison stab even though Gengar has no issue fighting Togetic and still can't dent Blissey assuming she's fairy

There are still numerous counters for Gengar and losing tempo is huge, varying depending on the speed of the metagame. If Mega-Gengar was the only Mega-pokemon in this gen with its breakneck speed, I can guarantee you it would be BL.

Losing tempo is huge. you just spent the last 3 turns doing nothing. You switched in, you subed, then you switched out. By that time, if I'm half competent, I would have amassed some sort of an advantage over you. Shadowtag Gengar does something later, compare to other megas that come in and do something immediately.

I dunno how subbing up in the face of something that's probably a check at best counters you or sacrifices turns. I dunno whatever logic you're applying but if Gengar subs up as TTar switches in, there is absolutely nothing TTar does but die from two focus misses because there is not a single TTar set in existence that will take those bar running full sp.def evs and that's a damn waste of a ttar.

So, pray tell, what are these magical counters to Mega Gengar you keep referring to? Because with the steel type changes, I can only think of dark-types or normal-types taking the stab shadow ball and most of them are blown up by focus miss. Outside of that you need priority and only a handful of Pokemon get it and most of I think get blown up in the process.

 

[mood4food77]

think about it

wobb was Uber in gens III and IV because of shadow tag, without it, it would reside in NU and probably would never get used there
chandelure would've been a staple in OU if it got shadow tag, possibly even getting banned
dugtrio is only OU because of arena trap
trapinch had a niche in OU in gen III because of arean trap
gotithelle was NU before it got shadow tag, and now it's BL

so now we're taking a poke that has been an offensive force in OU for 5 gens, making it stronger and faster, and giving it shadow tag and you think it would be BL at most?

this **** cries uber

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

chanderp 100% would've gotten banned. that thing's a ****ing nightmare to deal with.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

ebwop: and i'm saying this because pokemon online did ban it from their dream world tier. po's not the greatest thing in the world but i do contest that they did two smart things: allow their dream world tier to have a banlist so as to see how strong things were before they were released and banning roserade from uu.

 

[mood4food77]

so megamedicham has base 99 attack with pure power........

expect craters the size of alaska

 

[Wave⁂]

Medicham with effective 250 base Attack still can't OHKO Duskull

252 +2 Atk Jirachi (+Atk) Zen Headbutt vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Duskull (+Def) : 50.82% - 60.25%
2 hits to KO

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

wot

duskull you confound me

 

[mood4food77]

yea, i'm confused on how duskull took that little damage with something that has near 700 attack

 

[Grizzlpaw]

On second thought, disregard this post.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Anyone think the new ability "Protean" could be any good?

I see people being able to take advantage of it

It changes the users type to the type of the move they use

Does it change the type AFTER they use the move though?

 

[mood4food77]

idk, depends on the moves the poke gets

i don't see it being that useful

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Eh, it reminded me of Color change but not as sucky because you control it instead of the opponent

Makes me wonder why Porgyon doesn't have these abilities since type changing was his gimmick for 2 gens before kecleon, then Arceus

 

[Circa]

It also makes me wonder how this will work on something like Greninja, who has two types. I'm assuming he'll lose both of his original types in favor of the new one, but idk.

Overall I think this is less abusable than at first appearance. Not fully sure though. One thing this does though is make Hidden Power kind of awesome, even with its power being nerfed.

I'm assuming the type change happens before the attack. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense otherwise.

 

[mood4food77]

greninja apparently only has 95 SpA and 115 Spe and no dark pulse.....no OU for him

 

[Circa]

I didn't expect him to be. It was just the only example I knew of.

 

[mood4food77]

if it got dark pulse, it could have been

Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam is a pretty good moveset with great neutral coverage (I don't think anything resists this combo now that dark is neutral against steel)

 

[Circa]

Water/Dark, Water/Fighting, and Water/Fairy all resist that. I believe there are only two semi-relevant Pokemon with any of those combos though.

 

[mood4food77]

so greninja, poliwrath, sharpedo, crawdaut, and keldeo resist the combo

i think i can live with that

 

[Circa]

Well, the two semi-relevant ones I was thinking of were Mega Gyarados and Azumarill.

And for all we know there could be another.

I admittedly forget about nearly everything from Gen V, so forgive me for not thinking of Keldeo.

 

[mood4food77]

completely forgot about azumarill and mega gyarados so that lessens it anyways

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Anyone think the new ability "Protean" could be any good?

I see people being able to take advantage of it

It changes the users type to the type of the move they use

Does it change the type AFTER they use the move though?

Yeh but for something with at or around 120 base speed like Greninja, it's not gonna matter as much.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Eh, it reminded me of Color change but not as sucky because you control it instead of the opponent

Makes me wonder why Porgyon doesn't have these abilities since type changing was his gimmick for 2 gens before kecleon, then Arceus

There's probably a decent chance he would if they bump the number up to 4 but somehow I doubt that'll happen.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

fwiw i don't think mega gyarados'll be that relevant. crunch wasn't an important coverage move for him and losing intimidate/moxie for mold breaker just kinda sucks

 

[mood4food77]

megazam and megagyarados seem to be the most useless megalutions right now, maybe megapinsir (seriously...bug/flying)

sleep mechanics got reverted back to gen IV and crit hits now do 1.5x damage instead of 2x

sweet jesus that's awesome

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

all these little subtle changes are making stall better and better and i am the happiest ************ for it. if cresselia gets psychic/fairy typing then i have everything i've ever wanted out of this meta (besides another poison heal 'mon that uses it defensively)

 

[Wave⁂]

Cresselia is for wimps

Blissey @ Leftovers
Calm | 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Wish / Aromatherapy / Safeguard / Healing Wish

Gotta support your Mega evolution

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

dear lord why

 

[mood4food77]

so there's a new move electrify "if the target is electrified before it uses a move during that turn, the target's move becomes electric type"

while it sounds gimmicky as hell, the only poke i could see using this is jolteon, thanks to it's amazing speed and having volt absorb

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

sounds like doubles shenanigans to be had

 

[Wave⁂]

Six Scarf Jolteons with Electrify

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

watch ground-types be immune to it

hilariously enough it's actually good on electivire and zapdos due to motor drive and lightningrod but i don't know why they'd ever use it.

 

[Circa]

Well if you're using Electivire you might as well just do it. You already look crazy and stupid, so you might as well just turn it up to 11.

 

[UltiMario]

Aegislash is gunna wreck ****

Goodra's pretty solid, big movepool

Speed Boost Scolipede is the ****, imagine Ninjask but actually good

Mega Gengar is going to end up shafted for other Megas and Shadow Tag Chandelure (which you should be able to get now with the ability capsule, methinks?), partially because non-mega gar does so well anyways you're better off using 2 near Ubers instead of 1 basically Uber mon. Shadow Tag is hella good but 1 turn activation and no Levitate is really holding Mega Gar back.

Klefki is **** but it gets Prankster Spikes and might get some other goodies down the line we don't know of yet. God knows if it gets stuff like Rocks, Magic Coat, Taunt, whatever.

Furfrou is hella weak to Mold Breaker, but if it gets reliable recovery it might actually becomes a new big wall.


Avalugg
Ice-type
Ice Body / Own Tempo
100 110 182 45 37 27

One of my favorites of this gen simply because of how ridiculously polarizing its stats are. This thing is basically invincible to physical attacks, and its prevo holding an eviolite even moreso. It's absolutely worthless against anything but purely physical attackers, but holy hell does it wall the **** out of anything that is one.