asob4
Smash Champion
rainbow cruise is the bane of my existence
delfino is 50-50
frigate really isn't that bad :/
delfino is 50-50
frigate really isn't that bad :/
-
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Pokemon Trainer vs. Olimar
- Thread starter Steeler
- Start date
yeah dudes since zard gets ***** by olimar so bad (can get killed at like 120% with an upsmash or anything really, compared to other characters where they can only kill him at 150+, AND gets combo'd so bad at lower percents), and without him my whole game is thrown out (i don't know about you guys but as a ivysaur starter i NEED to switch to charizard above 50% after my first kill or else ivy gets gimped so bad, especially against a tether where they can hang down low where i can't razor leaf them, then go up for invincibility frames when i'm close so i can't latch on; AND since squirtle is so light i need him at a fresh 0% which is why i tank with charizard which is useless against olimar run on sentence here's some more words) so definitely don't average the matchups, it's all about how all 3 work together here.
in summary if you couldn't understand my terrible grammar and sentence structure: olimar ***** me
OH AND EDIT: to you guys saying you could just jump after a dthrow or whatever that accursed throw olimar has: even if you jump, what then... you come back down. any good player is going to take advantage of you being above them, and don't just say "airdodge" because, and rich has learned this, airdodging isn't effective against a player that is good enough to read it. you WILL be punished for being above olimar, especially since his up moves are absolute ****.
in summary if you couldn't understand my terrible grammar and sentence structure: olimar ***** me
OH AND EDIT: to you guys saying you could just jump after a dthrow or whatever that accursed throw olimar has: even if you jump, what then... you come back down. any good player is going to take advantage of you being above them, and don't just say "airdodge" because, and rich has learned this, airdodging isn't effective against a player that is good enough to read it. you WILL be punished for being above olimar, especially since his up moves are absolute ****.
well typh, what about jump with di away from oli and using your second midair jump right after? it'll give you some more breathing room, i'd think.
also oli can kill zard pretty nicely, but zard can at least rack up a lot of damage quickly on olimar to "kinda" make up for it. playing a defensive zard could be more effective, to just kinda pick your spots for rock smash/flamethrower/grab games or something.
also oli can kill zard pretty nicely, but zard can at least rack up a lot of damage quickly on olimar to "kinda" make up for it. playing a defensive zard could be more effective, to just kinda pick your spots for rock smash/flamethrower/grab games or something.
RichBrown
Smash Master
you could always go to the side of the stage like pokemon trainer does... he has this game figured out, he is unhittable XD
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
YES! I HAVE TEH WIFI!
I'm excited to fight a decent Pokemon Trainer now. I'll just PM the OP, but anyone else open?
I'm excited to fight a decent Pokemon Trainer now. I'll just PM the OP, but anyone else open?
Excellence
Smash Champion
Spiked! =]
zard could try getting to the di'ing to the side a bit and rock smashing as he falls to deter olimar.
also good games meno, both your oli and peach are great.
i'm really interested in hearing what you say about the matchup...and maybe you could help with peach when the time comes to analyze her? :D
also good games meno, both your oli and peach are great.
i'm really interested in hearing what you say about the matchup...and maybe you could help with peach when the time comes to analyze her? :D
I see a lot about how people should rate a match ups for Pokemon Trainer.
The thing is, it doesn't matter how good their teamwork is because only one can be out at a time and since Squirtle is really Olimars only problem in this matchup he doesn't have to worry as much when the other two are out, or switchin around.
I get what you're saying though, each Pokemon has a different role and knowing when to use which Pokemon is vital to being any good with PT. It seems like a 60/40 match up to me because Charizard is terrible against Olimar, I know nothing about Ivysuar... And Squirtle saves the day!
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I iz here! And what's this about my Olimar being great? I haven't played him in AWHILE, I never realized how rusty I'd gotten. I think I got three-stocked at least twice... I'll stick to Peach. :]
Anyway, onto the match-up:
I suppose unless you've practiced the match particularly, Pokemon Trainer is HARD TO UNDERSTAND. It's three freakin' characters cycling over and over. That's three movesets to be aware of, three different strategies you have to change, approachs, physical traits... T_T
So all of this caught me by surprise - I would have lost if this was a tournament. And seeing as there are so few of these people to fight against, I assume this will be a major advantage for PT mains.
I'll add more later, once I'm not as sleepy...
But any questions or anything?
Anyway, onto the match-up:
I suppose unless you've practiced the match particularly, Pokemon Trainer is HARD TO UNDERSTAND. It's three freakin' characters cycling over and over. That's three movesets to be aware of, three different strategies you have to change, approachs, physical traits... T_T
So all of this caught me by surprise - I would have lost if this was a tournament. And seeing as there are so few of these people to fight against, I assume this will be a major advantage for PT mains.
I'll add more later, once I'm not as sleepy...
But any questions or anything?
zard is "kinda bad" at worst, i think.
i think there's a lot of stuff about pt that you can't really put down on paper, you know? but eh iduno.
thanks for the matches meno.
also i found that charizard survived a uair or usmash at like 120% so...iduno. maybe i should test that in training mode to make sure.
also, zard's speed and grab range are so deceptive that he can just dash up to oli at the start of the match if he's busy plucking out the other 3 pikmin.
i think there's a lot of stuff about pt that you can't really put down on paper, you know? but eh iduno.
thanks for the matches meno.
also i found that charizard survived a uair or usmash at like 120% so...iduno. maybe i should test that in training mode to make sure.
also, zard's speed and grab range are so deceptive that he can just dash up to oli at the start of the match if he's busy plucking out the other 3 pikmin.
asob4
Smash Champion
if you do that you'll end up getting grabbed
no lag on teh pluck and since there's pikmin there he can freely do any move he wants
no lag on teh pluck and since there's pikmin there he can freely do any move he wants
asob4
Smash Champion
on wifi, and his first time playing a PT main :/
so many variables! ahhhh
so many variables! ahhhh
Dotcom
Smash Lord
I think a good consensus would be just to label Pokemon Trainer as a whole 60/40 advantage us(Olimar).
Even the matchups that the PKT's call even, are in our favor 55-45. < That's an even variable but but it's still if just slightly advantegous for Olimar.
Some say one Pokemon does better against us than the others, and I think instead of discussing moresay the numbers we should direct it too more or less which of the Pokemon outperforms the others in the match up.
Sure going up against a Smart PK trainer is going to be hard but that's the same for smart player you face (Here's looking at Bum who won a NYC tourney with Captain Falcon). 60/40 Should please both sides I think. Nothing to drastic though like 65/35 because I personally think that we're not exactly a PKT "counter".
Even the matchups that the PKT's call even, are in our favor 55-45. < That's an even variable but but it's still if just slightly advantegous for Olimar.
Some say one Pokemon does better against us than the others, and I think instead of discussing moresay the numbers we should direct it too more or less which of the Pokemon outperforms the others in the match up.
Sure going up against a Smart PK trainer is going to be hard but that's the same for smart player you face (Here's looking at Bum who won a NYC tourney with Captain Falcon). 60/40 Should please both sides I think. Nothing to drastic though like 65/35 because I personally think that we're not exactly a PKT "counter".
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
Oh, I agree with the overall kind of stuff, but it's important for the PT's to know which Pokemon is doing the best in the match-up, because you have to drastically change your mind-set if you need to rely on one and get rid of the other. TBH, it seems most match-ups are minimizing Squirtle, capitalizing Charizard. That may be a significant cause as to the dispute here.
As far as grabbing an Olimar plucking, it definately happens. Olimar can not pluck three Pikmin and get an attack in on most stages. Of course, Olimar's going to be cautious of it once it happens the first time, but what's to say the next time Charizard doesn't use Flamethrower from a farther distance? Honestly, it doesn't have that much relevance in the match-up discussion because it will heavily fall to being a mind-game.
Charizard is slight disadvantage at worst, I think it's something like 55-45 Olimar's favor.
As far as grabbing an Olimar plucking, it definately happens. Olimar can not pluck three Pikmin and get an attack in on most stages. Of course, Olimar's going to be cautious of it once it happens the first time, but what's to say the next time Charizard doesn't use Flamethrower from a farther distance? Honestly, it doesn't have that much relevance in the match-up discussion because it will heavily fall to being a mind-game.
Charizard is slight disadvantage at worst, I think it's something like 55-45 Olimar's favor.
Dotcom
Smash Lord
Going for a grab against a plucking Pikmin with Zard is good.. if you notice they have the tendency to go for the 3 at the start of the match nearly all the time. Maybe this works against the mass of Olimar players but I pluck one to bait someone in to rushing in for something dumb and grab them myself.
But if it works it works all the power to you.
I'm pretty certain Zard doesn't do the best because Olimar does so well against larger characters.
Squirtle and Ivysaur is a much tighter race. Not too sure but I do have experience against good squirtles if you qould like my input. Chillin (beat him in a firendly SO HARD! and MexiMadness not too known but great none the less.
But if it works it works all the power to you.
I'm pretty certain Zard doesn't do the best because Olimar does so well against larger characters.
Squirtle and Ivysaur is a much tighter race. Not too sure but I do have experience against good squirtles if you qould like my input. Chillin (beat him in a firendly
SO HARD! and MexiMadness not too known but great none the less.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
By slight disadvantage I meant 65-35 Olimar's advantage at worst. I don't know, I get the feeling that the Olimar boards are trying to sell me a shut-out on Charizard here, and I don't think it's the case. It happens with Squirtle and Marth for example, but the advantage there is far, far greater than between Charizard and Olimar.
The only reason I'm reluctant to put Ivysaur much farther than Charizard is the less-spectacular off-stage game. Charizard has the ability to hit Olimar hard where it counts, and honestly he isn't totally destroyed on the stage a la Squirtle-Marth.
The only reason I'm reluctant to put Ivysaur much farther than Charizard is the less-spectacular off-stage game. Charizard has the ability to hit Olimar hard where it counts, and honestly he isn't totally destroyed on the stage a la Squirtle-Marth.
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Wait wut? Grabbing a plucking Olimar in the beginning? lol. It takes .6 seconds to get ready to throw them. Charizard will only be half way across the stage before I'm chucking them.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
Picture Peach versus Charizard, Battlefield
Peach is about where the first platform on the left starts, Charizard between the middle of the platform and the edge that's closest to Peach.
If Peach attempts to pull out a Turnip, she can get grabbed.
Charizard has the same dash speed as Pikachu. Especially if it's right as you start, Charizard has a pretty large chance of grabbing Olimar if he tries to pull all three at once. Of course Olimar can do something else. It's going to be a mindgame approach at best. You'll never "count on it" more than once.
Peach is about where the first platform on the left starts, Charizard between the middle of the platform and the edge that's closest to Peach.
If Peach attempts to pull out a Turnip, she can get grabbed.
Charizard has the same dash speed as Pikachu. Especially if it's right as you start, Charizard has a pretty large chance of grabbing Olimar if he tries to pull all three at once. Of course Olimar can do something else. It's going to be a mindgame approach at best. You'll never "count on it" more than once.
I'd like to hear your thoughts.Protoman10 said:
Dotcom
Smash Lord
The game ended so beofre I WoT (text) i'm gonna take a nap... we did lose
Retrogaming: "If Peach attempts to pull out a Turnip, she can get grabbed."
..In the time it takes Peach to pull out a tunip we can pull out all 6 pikmin. Those are not the same time variables at all.
Retrogaming: "If Peach attempts to pull out a Turnip, she can get grabbed."
..In the time it takes Peach to pull out a tunip we can pull out all 6 pikmin. Those are not the same time variables at all.
regardless, it's POSSIBLE, i mean it's an option for zard but as retro states, it's not something to depend on because you could just end up getting grabbed or fsmashed.
this and other similar tactics (when olimar appears after losing a stock for example) probably fall under the mindgame category and as such don't have any clout when it comes to the analysis. something to "keep in mind" i guess.
if olimar has an advantage on charizard, i think it's pretty slight. is that oli combo inescapable or something?
also i'm definitely up for some more matches, this time against someone who doesn't have a "rusty olimar" ;P i want to see this combo in person and how effective it is.
this and other similar tactics (when olimar appears after losing a stock for example) probably fall under the mindgame category and as such don't have any clout when it comes to the analysis. something to "keep in mind" i guess.
if olimar has an advantage on charizard, i think it's pretty slight. is that oli combo inescapable or something?
also i'm definitely up for some more matches, this time against someone who doesn't have a "rusty olimar" ;P i want to see this combo in person and how effective it is.
Knyaguy
Smash Lord
Who won the most?!?
asob4
Smash Champion
hope it was dan :]
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- 6,860
As you know, I've played a bunch of matches with steeler just now. About 20ish? There wasn't too much lag either. Just occasionally. He kept beating me in the beginning,(I don't play online like ever. no johns. lol) but by the end, we went about even. It doesn't matter though. It was online. I had never sat down to play that many matches with a PT before. I enjoyed it. ;P
Ivysaur-
I'm not sure about this matchup. All the ivysaurs I've played against before weren't as good as steeler's. I'm thinking it's about even.
So, from what I could tell, Olimar outcamps ivysaur, but not by much though. In the beginning, it can be hard to get a pikmin past the leaves, but if you do, you've won the camp war. you've GOT to jump over the leaves and then throw. You can't just stand there like I see some people do. Once you latch one, he has to stop hurling his leaves in order to kill the pikmin, and since he doesn't have very many options to kill them with, you can just keep chucking them at the fella. Thus he has to come to you.
Up close, he's got many options to space with: ftilt, (his best) leaves, dtilt,(if you get too close) and bair.(hard to get past) for all of them, you just have to shield through them. Ftilt lasts FOREVER though, and the timing is similar to GaW turtle. bair is like GaW's turtle, but you've got to run in and shield it. If you get to close while shielding, he'll probably follow up with ftilt, so just shield both, and THEN grab. The bair doesn't have lag.
Killing- He's vulnerable from below b/c his dair is laggy and slow, so try to juggle from there. Just watch out for his bulletseed, b/c it's a beast. (underrated might I add) I'm still not sure which way to DI. Upsmashes work well b/c of the combination of his floatyness and his dair.
He can kill you pretty easily also though. He's got fsmash, upair, fair, and upsmash,(sometimes) They all kill well, especially the latter. He'll use it to punish all dodges in general. Just wait for it to end and grab the sucka. It's got surprising range as well.
Squirtle-
after playing a bunch of matches v squirtle, I don't think he has the advantage! I had a lot of trouble in the beginning, but after I got used to his tactics and attacks, he became much easier to play against.
Olimar outcamps squirtle, (no duh) so he has to approach. You've GOT to keep pressuring him with pikmin. His approaches will consist of shell shifting and SHs and anything to get you to move. When you spam your pikmin, you're making him restless and he'll approach quicker, which is what you want. I found the running in to grab the SSing worked very well. Also, rolling torwards it and then dsmashing worked strangely well also. Spaced fsmashes can ruin his ground approaches.
Against the SHed attacks, you've got either shieldgrab them, or retaliate. You can't use any of your grounded attacks against him while he's airborne. Dont try it. It will never work. Sometimes you can SHfair just before you think he'll jump at you to get a quick sneak attack in. Nair works here even better.
Dair. squirtle's dair is what keeps the matchup even and not advantaged olimar imo. It's fast and can get behind your shieldgrab attempts. Just use dsmash or upsmash OoS(out of shield) against it. If he lands in front, you have the choice to upsmash or grab.
Comboing. It's hard to combo squirtle. you can't rely on your dthrow combos.(except shrink's sexy dthrow>upb. You can try to dthrow>upb>running grab) Yellows help a little bit with their hitstun. You've got to think about what the squirtle is going to do to retaliate against your dthrow combos. If he fairs through your dthrow>fair, then just dthrow>shieldgrab it the next time you grab him. He might not attack the next time cuz he knows you'll just shieldgrab it. That's when you dthrow>fair instead.
Throughout the match though, you should probably upthrow instead of dthrow for the most part. You should airchase with upair and nair instead of techchasing him.
Killing from below is rather hard against squirtle. His dair will eat through everything except your upair. Try to go for your grab kills against him.
Charizard
later
I had never sat down to play that many matches with a PT before. I enjoyed it. ;PIvysaur-
I'm not sure about this matchup. All the ivysaurs I've played against before weren't as good as steeler's. I'm thinking it's about even.
So, from what I could tell, Olimar outcamps ivysaur, but not by much though. In the beginning, it can be hard to get a pikmin past the leaves, but if you do, you've won the camp war. you've GOT to jump over the leaves and then throw. You can't just stand there like I see some people do. Once you latch one, he has to stop hurling his leaves in order to kill the pikmin, and since he doesn't have very many options to kill them with, you can just keep chucking them at the fella. Thus he has to come to you.
Up close, he's got many options to space with: ftilt, (his best) leaves, dtilt,(if you get too close) and bair.(hard to get past) for all of them, you just have to shield through them. Ftilt lasts FOREVER though, and the timing is similar to GaW turtle. bair is like GaW's turtle, but you've got to run in and shield it. If you get to close while shielding, he'll probably follow up with ftilt, so just shield both, and THEN grab. The bair doesn't have lag.
Killing- He's vulnerable from below b/c his dair is laggy and slow, so try to juggle from there. Just watch out for his bulletseed, b/c it's a beast. (underrated might I add) I'm still not sure which way to DI. Upsmashes work well b/c of the combination of his floatyness and his dair.
He can kill you pretty easily also though. He's got fsmash, upair, fair, and upsmash,(sometimes) They all kill well, especially the latter. He'll use it to punish all dodges in general. Just wait for it to end and grab the sucka. It's got surprising range as well.
Squirtle-
after playing a bunch of matches v squirtle, I don't think he has the advantage! I had a lot of trouble in the beginning, but after I got used to his tactics and attacks, he became much easier to play against.
Olimar outcamps squirtle, (no duh) so he has to approach. You've GOT to keep pressuring him with pikmin. His approaches will consist of shell shifting and SHs and anything to get you to move. When you spam your pikmin, you're making him restless and he'll approach quicker, which is what you want. I found the running in to grab the SSing worked very well. Also, rolling torwards it and then dsmashing worked strangely well also. Spaced fsmashes can ruin his ground approaches.
Against the SHed attacks, you've got either shieldgrab them, or retaliate. You can't use any of your grounded attacks against him while he's airborne. Dont try it. It will never work. Sometimes you can SHfair just before you think he'll jump at you to get a quick sneak attack in. Nair works here even better.
Dair. squirtle's dair is what keeps the matchup even and not advantaged olimar imo. It's fast and can get behind your shieldgrab attempts. Just use dsmash or upsmash OoS(out of shield) against it. If he lands in front, you have the choice to upsmash or grab.
Comboing. It's hard to combo squirtle. you can't rely on your dthrow combos.(except shrink's sexy dthrow>upb. You can try to dthrow>upb>running grab) Yellows help a little bit with their hitstun. You've got to think about what the squirtle is going to do to retaliate against your dthrow combos. If he fairs through your dthrow>fair, then just dthrow>shieldgrab it the next time you grab him. He might not attack the next time cuz he knows you'll just shieldgrab it. That's when you dthrow>fair instead.
Throughout the match though, you should probably upthrow instead of dthrow for the most part. You should airchase with upair and nair instead of techchasing him.
Killing from below is rather hard against squirtle. His dair will eat through everything except your upair. Try to go for your grab kills against him.
Charizard
later
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
DI'n for Bullet Seed what you're unsure about (You didn't specify a move well so I'm just kind of assuming)? You should be going with the seed's current (So up) and also out of the center of the pillar (So to either side). Once you pick a side you need to stick to it, though, for obvious reasons. Oh, Smash DI with both sticks.
Yes, Ivysaur (And Charizard) you'll find are most susceptible from below. I mean, what can they really do (Ivysaur can Bair if it has it's back turned, Charizard can Rock Smash and get you with the shattered bits)? Not much, 's what I would do.
Would someone comment on the off-stage game versus Ivysaur? I kind of hope Steeler tried some Bair shenanigans, but maybe not. It seems like it would force Olimar to jump.
Yes, Ivysaur (And Charizard) you'll find are most susceptible from below. I mean, what can they really do (Ivysaur can Bair if it has it's back turned, Charizard can Rock Smash and get you with the shattered bits)? Not much, 's what I would do.
Would someone comment on the off-stage game versus Ivysaur? I kind of hope Steeler tried some Bair shenanigans, but maybe not. It seems like it would force Olimar to jump.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
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- 6,860
I went berserk on my whistle use. I just WACed everything he did to me offstage.(or at least I tried to) He didn't really edgeguard with Ivysaur as much as he did with charizard or squirtle.
I hope you guys don't take our battles as the current metagame of the matchup. lol
I hope you guys don't take our battles as the current metagame of the matchup. lol
asob4
Smash Champion
nope
i'd go with mine and richbrown's experience with the match up more, as we have both played a great PT IRL
i'd go with mine and richbrown's experience with the match up more, as we have both played a great PT IRL
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I'm not, but I think even wi-fi can test 'dis Bair thing. Well, if the conditions aren't totally screwed over by wi-fi.
Oh, I can put some of the replays up tommorow, too, Steeler. But, you know. I don't feel like doing 20ish matches. Three of the closer ones, I guess.
Oh, I can put some of the replays up tommorow, too, Steeler. But, you know. I don't feel like doing 20ish matches. Three of the closer ones, I guess.
OlimarFan
Smash Ace
Ivysaur's U-Smash is one of the strongest in the game.As you know, I've played a bunch of matches with steeler just now. About 20ish? There wasn't too much lag either. Just occasionally. He kept beating me in the beginning,(I don't play online like ever. no johns. lol) but by the end, we went about even. It doesn't matter though. It was online.
Ivysaur-
I'm not sure about this matchup. All the ivysaurs I've played against before weren't as good as steeler's. I'm thinking it's about even.
So, from what I could tell, Olimar outcamps ivysaur, but not by much though. In the beginning, it can be hard to get a pikmin past the leaves, but if you do, you've won the camp war. you've GOT to jump over the leaves and then throw. You can't just stand there like I see some people do. Once you latch one, he has to stop hurling his leaves in order to kill the pikmin, and since he doesn't have very many options to kill them with, you can just keep chucking them at the fella. Thus he has to come to you.
Up close, he's got many options to space with: ftilt, (his best) leaves, dtilt,(if you get too close) and bair.(hard to get past) for all of them, you just have to shield through them. Ftilt lasts FOREVER though, and the timing is similar to GaW turtle. bair is like GaW's turtle, but you've got to run in and shield it. If you get to close while shielding, he'll probably follow up with ftilt, so just shield both, and THEN grab. The bair doesn't have lag.
Killing- He's vulnerable from below b/c his dair is laggy and slow, so try to juggle from there. Just watch out for his bulletseed, b/c it's a beast. (underrated might I add) I'm still not sure which way to DI. Upsmashes work well b/c of the combination of his floatyness and his dair.
He can kill you pretty easily also though. He's got fsmash, upair, fair, and upsmash,(sometimes) They all kill well, especially the latter. He'll use it to punish all dodges in general. Just wait for it to end and grab the sucka. It's got surprising range as well.
Don't worry about the B-Air-It doesn't do much damage.
Ivysaur has the worst recovery in the game.
P.S. It's a pity-Olimar's 'Worm' can out-prioritise Pit's Angel Ring...but not Ivysaur's Razor Leaf.
Excellence
Smash Champion
I can't wait to see some of the replays.
Knyaguy
Smash Lord
What is this "Worm" of wich you speak of?
Excellence
Smash Champion
Down Tilt.
Zori
Smash Champion
D-tilt .
.
Zori
Smash Champion
uggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh excellence beat me im the down tilt spammer!!!!!!!!!!!!!