Pokemon Trainer vs. Olimar

[Steeler]

Hey all you Olimars, I come to you humbly for your help. You see, we at the Pokemon Trainer board have begun a Pokemon Type Chart of sorts to categorize PT's match ups in the game, POKEMON STYLE. And we've now begun our Pokedex Entry series, where we dedicate a thread to one character.

You guys are our next entry! It'd be great if any of you with experience playing decent PT's could analyze the match up? So we could get both sides of the story. My hope is that it will benefit both character discussion boards, when PT one day realizes his potential and gloriously rises from the depths of hell/bottom tier...

Finally, perhaps we could set up some 1v1s between the two boards? No better way to find out than to test it in game!

Here's our discussion on Olimar:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5153436

my fc's in the sig, just add me and let me know and we can spar a bit. =]

thanks for the help guys!

 

[Snail]

I've never fought a decent PT before, but I just want to say I support your attempts to save PT from the depths of the tier list. Because he's awesome and all.

So yeah, good luck :D I'd fight you, but Europe-US connections suck. ._.

 

[Retro Gaming]

lol@ like no responses.

Perhaps I'll start on the most interesting bit; Squirtle.

I really don't know what the Olimar boards see in him? Difficulty of hitting him? I don't really think so. Olimar forces the approach with Pikmin Toss (Regardless of the fact that Squirtle kills them off with Nair) and Squirtle will really only be able to come from two directions: grounded (Jabs/Ftilt), or diagonally aerial (Bair, Dair, etc.) Now, I'm pretty much certain Olimar has both of these covered with his range/disjoints, similarly to Marth. The thing is, Olimar's got this really abusive grab range, and he can actually do things out of his grabs. I don't see how a combination of grabs/Usmash doesn't make Squirtle's approach a living nightmare. Squirtle's poor range puts him in a difficult position everytime he's forced to approach Olimar.

At least, 's how I feel.

 

[Excellence]

lol@ like no responses.

Perhaps I'll start on the most interesting bit; Squirtle.

I really don't know what the Olimar boards see in him? Difficulty of hitting him? I don't really think so. Olimar forces the approach with Pikmin Toss (Regardless of the fact that Squirtle kills them off with Nair) and Squirtle will really only be able to come from two directions: grounded (Jabs/Ftilt), or diagonally aerial (Bair, Dair, etc.) Now, I'm pretty much certain Olimar has both of these covered with his range/disjoints, similarly to Marth. The thing is, Olimar's got this really abusive grab range, and he can actually do things out of his grabs. I don't see how a combination of grabs/Usmash doesn't make Squirtle's approach a living nightmare. Squirtle's poor range puts him in a difficult position everytime he's forced to approach Olimar.

At least, 's how I feel.

Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard) have never given me any difficulty. I'd say if anything, Ivysaur is the most annoying because of Razor Leaf.

The only thing a Squirtle can really do to Olimar is ledgeguard him. There aren't too many ways to force Olimar to approach, so Squirtle is going to have to work with his speed. I'm not too sure, but I believe Squirtle can hydroplane from one end of the stage to the other get Olimar when he misuses a grab. Though Olimar has range, he isn't the quickest character and cannot go from one attack to the other without a moment's notice.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I hope you know it's not really a full stage legnth. It is relatively far, but Squirtle will not try to pull this out until he want to kill you, probably. And, in my opinion, this is still pretty easy to shield if you expect it.

Olimar shouldn't need to go from attack to attack versus Squirtle, though. How hard is it to read his two approaches (Bair or Ftilt)?

And, in my opinion, Charizard will edge-guard you much better than Squirtle.

 

[CALOZ]

Never fought a person who is so good with three character O.o. But i know squirtle is a character that could beat olimar real badly

 

[Excellence]

I hope you know it's not really a full stage legnth. It is relatively far, but Squirtle will not try to pull this out until he want to kill you, probably. And, in my opinion, this is still pretty easy to shield if you expect it.

Olimar shouldn't need to go from attack to attack versus Squirtle, though. How hard is it to read his two approaches (Bair or Ftilt)?

And, in my opinion, Charizard will edge-guard you much better than Squirtle.

Squirtles only hard because of his speed and the Olimar's style: Offensive, Defensive, Camp, or a mix of the three (which, not many can pull off, but swear up and down they do it). So, some people might be going Attack to Attack against Squirtle. I know that I am a huge fan of stringing together 40% - 60% damage combos, then spamming till they're 120% and unleashing smashes, bthrow, or uthrows.

You've got a point. It's not hard to read Squirtles approaches, but in some situations it's not possible to do much against it. Like Olimar's Up Air, sure you know you're going to get hit, but if your falling into it you can't do a whole lot about it.

You think so? What do you see Squirtle/Charizard ledgeguarding with, or what do you perfer to use? I'm thinking Squirtles aerials (Bair) come out quicker and he could do back air spam to kill Olimar. Charizard Fair is slow, isn't it?

Never fought a person who is so good with three character O.o. But i know squirtle is a character that could beat olimar real badly

You know wrong.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

As i said on the other thread, squirtle can abuse the weaknesses olimar has because of his speed, althought a smart olimar player with a lot of experience may hurt the lil turtle because of his bad aproach game and low weight, but if the olimar player is not experienced against squirtle hes gonna have a lot of trouble, so maybe thats why everybody thinks squirtle owns olimar..... but i think once the olimar player gets experieced enough he will be able to counter squirtles aproaches( no ofense to any olimar main with problems with squirtle)... by the way, olimar in the air can rack up damage to charizard very good, unlike squirtle who goes flying away and gets little damage( squirtle may die, but charizard too, specially with Uair) so squirtle is safer in the air tan charizard, and you dont have to hit hard a recovering olimar to gimp him, just land a good hit on the right time, and squirtle is best at doing that.

 

[Excellence]

As i said on the other thread, squirtle can abuse the weaknesses olimar has because of his speed, althought a smart olimar player with a lot of experience may hurt the lil turtle because of his bad aproach game and low weight, but if the olimar player is not experienced against squirtle hes gonna have a lot of trouble, so maybe thats why everybody thinks squirtle owns olimar..... but i think once the olimar player gets experieced enough he will be able to counter squirtles aproaches( no ofense to any olimar main with problems with squirtle)... by the way, olimar in the air can rack up damage to charizard very good, unlike squirtle who goes flying away and gets little damage( squirtle may die, but charizard too, specially with Uair) so squirtle is safer in the air tan charizard, and you dont have to hit hard a recovering olimar to gimp him, just land a good hit on the right time, and squirtle is best at doing that.

Roll, Up Tilt, Up Tilt, Up Air, Pikmin Spear (Olimar's Tether) and kaboom large amounts of damage on Squirtle. It really depends what you use on Squirtle that determines how far he goes.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Charizard's Bair is faster and more reliable than Fair (As far as getting the high knock-back goes). Olimar's got his whistle, but Charizard's got multiple jumps to stall them/bait the whistle with. Squirtle's limited to his one jump out, try Fair/Dair, then get back to the ledge and possibly try again.

Defensive Olimar beats out Squirtle in my mind. It's especially infuriating for Squirtle to be grabbed over and over, especially when he's so susceptible to being shielded.

 

[Zori]

I have played good pt's. Olimar counters pokemon trainer.

 

[Charizard92]

uh, you guys do understand that if anybody can pressure you guys from getting more Pikmin, you're screwed, and I can see Squirtle and Charizard doing that (Heck, Charizard can destroy the Pikmin afterwards too). But Ivysaur, because he has a tether recovery, it is just a matter of getting to the ledge first. I personally see Charizard as the Biggest threat to you guys and Ivysaur as the least problematic. You can get Pikmin in between razor leaf, try that with constant throws or flamethrower.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I have played good pt's. Olimar counters pokemon trainer.

Oh my god, it's so clear now. Olimar counters PT. All the evidence is in the post.

 

[Charizard92]

Oh my god, it's so clear now. Olimar counters PT. All the evidence is in the post.

I don't see it yet, maybe I have to look hard at it, or better yet, an actual detail why.

 

[Excellence]

uh, you guys do understand that if anybody can pressure you guys from getting more Pikmin, you're screwed, and I can see Squirtle and Charizard doing that (Heck, Charizard can destroy the Pikmin afterwards too). But Ivysaur, because he has a tether recovery, it is just a matter of getting to the ledge first. I personally see Charizard as the Biggest threat to you guys and Ivysaur as the least problematic. You can get Pikmin in between razor leaf, try that with constant throws or flamethrower.

You couldn't be more wrong. Olimar is actually fine with two or three Pikmin, sometimes one is best for the user (though not in a competitive match), which is the case we're talking about now - I hope. Plucking 6 Pikmin takes 1.2 seconds. You mean to tell me in that time Charizard and Squirtle can keep me pressured? I think not. I'll roll, run, and spot dodge my way into six Pikmin. And please, don't get torn up by the Olimar community for saying you can destroy Pikmin, Pikmin can only be destroyed while returning from an attack or when two attacks collide. Any smart Olimar knows not to let his ranks dwindle and hit the danger zone.

Some people like me mindgame that and get agressive with one Pikmin, rawr. >_>

 

[Zori]

Oh my god, it's so clear now. Olimar counters PT. All the evidence is in the post.

:D woops I forgot this was smashboards.

Im just saying I have never had trouble with any pt's at any skill lvl, Olimar can simply do anything better the all 3 pokemon. The only upper hand pt has is squirtles speed , razor leaf,bullet seed and flamethrower. We can 'combo' ivy and charizard very easy and get them to high percents and finish them with a simple edge guard, there recovery's are not that good.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Excellence is right. The small amount of time it takes Olimar to take Pikmin out really doesn't let him ever fall into a situation where he has no Pikmin. I mean, he can just pull all six out during his invincibility return frames. Olimar without Pikmin will be rare and likely intentional, so you can't say "well if you kill the Pikmin" since he can restore them as they die, not all at once.

 

[Toby.]

Um, it's not as easy as you say Charizard92. Firsly I don't think squirtle CAN pressure olimar and run him out of pikmin in any reliable way. Range is a wonderful thing. Secondly, whilst Charizard does have ways of stopping the pikin, its rare that you'll see a good player who doesn't have the second and a half spare to just pluck some more.

Yes, a weakness of Olimar is in the pikmin. Just because that weakness exists, it doesn't mean its easy for us to exploit it.

That having been said I don't feel that Olimar completely walks over 'zard if the player knows what they're doing. Same with ivysaur. I just don't feel that this is because olimar will somehow be unable to get pikmin.

edit: over 9000 people beat me to it. lol.

 

[OlimarFan]

Excellence is right. The small amount of time it takes Olimar to take Pikmin out really doesn't let him ever fall into a situation where he has no Pikmin. I mean, he can just pull all six out during his invincibility return frames. Olimar without Pikmin will be rare and likely intentional, so you can't say "well if you kill the Pikmin" since he can restore them as they die, not all at once.

Agreed. Also, an Olimar player at this level should never fall short of Pikmin.
I've watched quite a lot of getyourtournament's vids, and so far I have not seen an Olimar with no Pikmin...yet.

 

[Retro Gaming]

:D woops I forgot this was smashboards.

Im just saying I have never had trouble with any pt's at any skill lvl, Olimar can simply do anything better the all 3 pokemon. The only upper hand pt has is squirtles speed , razor leaf,bullet seed and flamethrower. We can 'combo' ivy and charizard very easy and get them to high percents and finish them with a simple edge guard, there recovery's are not that good.

I doubt you would finish Charizard with a "simple edge guard." Firstly, Olimar can not stray far from the stage himself or risk getting reverse-gimped. Secondly, Charizard has multiple jumps with which to stall Olimar's edge-guard/ get back to the stage with, and Fly has super armour for what I think is about the first 30% of the attack.

Ivysaur I can see getting gimped more often. While Olimar has better ability to return with whistle armour/more horizontal speed, Ivysaur at least has a consistently damaging projectile for removing the ledge-hoggers. In my experience Ivysaur has better ability to return to the stage with it's tether (The tether seems to work more consistently than Olimar's when you're farther from the stage horizontally). The thing to note is that I'm sure Ivysaur could gimp Olimar, in exchange. I think the two-hit of Bair (More than Olimar's Fair range) will likely go through your whistle armour with the second hit. If Ivysaur forces you to double jump, it just has to swat you away once more then tether itself and wait without pulling up to avoid the stage-spike.

 

[DanGR]

I don't really edgeguard charizard. I usually go for the upsmash kill at around 110.

Oh, and having no pikmin isn't an issue in the slightest. That argument is irrelevant.

 

[deepseadiva]

Awww... I hope I get my Wifi back soon. I wanna fight a PT that's not from "Anyone Brawl."

I honestly think that's why PT is stuck so down low on the tier list - there's like 3 of them.

 

[Olimarman]

I'll make this short:

Squirtle: Easy. You just need to watch out for the sliding usmash thingy (no idea what called, sorry) offstage fair/bair to legdeguard

Ivysaur: He has more range and an annoying projectile, but he has a bad recovery and is light. Another easy matchup.

Charizard: Hes fat, somewhat slow and has a pretty bad recovery. I have the most trouble with probably Charizard and Ivysaur, but neither give me anywhere near as much trouble as other characters like peach.

In otherwords, Olimar>Pt.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Awww... I hope I get my Wifi back soon. I wanna fight a PT that's not from "Anyone Brawl."

I honestly think that's why PT is stuck so down low on the tier list - there's like 3 of them.

Nu-uh! There's at least eight forum regulars. Owait.

Why does everyone think Ivysaur is light? Ivysaur is tied with Lucario for weight, last I checked. Both are very near Mario for weight.

Anyway, the assumption that Olimar > PT is wrong by that logic. Marth is more trouble for Squirtle than Snake is. Does that make Squirtle > Snake?

 

[Rocann]

I'll make this short:

Squirtle: Easy. You just need to watch out for the sliding usmash thingy (no idea what called, sorry) offstage fair/bair to legdeguard

First of all hydroplaning can be grabbed, it's almost a joke. Easier than snake mortar dashing and wario's bike.

Ivysaur: He has more range and an annoying projectile, but he has a bad recovery and is light. Another easy matchup.

Here is where you confuse me. You basically DESCRIBE ivysaur AS olimar with better range, neglect the fact that he has an arguably BETTER recovery than oli when you take into consideration that he ALWAYS his razor life at his disposal, then say it's an easy matchup. First of all, Ivysaur isn't light. He's like middle. Second, pressure with razorleaf and properly spaced bairs is incredibly tricky, especially with the threat of him just landing behind you for the grab/bullet seed. Don't play defensive vs ivysaur, he likes it.

Charizard: Hes fat, somewhat slow and has a pretty bad recovery. I have the most trouble with probably Charizard and Ivysaur, but neither give me anywhere near as much trouble as other characters like peach.

In otherwords, Olimar>Pt.

Charizard's grabs are seriously beyond this world's understanding. He certainly is the easiest pokemon. Tricks for him are when you are caught in fire breath, DI up and away but right when you get out, no pause, just fair him in the face. 100% guaranteed 60% of the time. Once you're offstage, he's gonna try and firebreath you or trick you to walking into a rock smash or fsmash. Biggest tip: NEVER ledgehop vs charizard (same goes for bowser and ike, for his dtilt) because if they fire you, you never know what your fickle pikmin will say about helping you recover. And with charizard more than almost any other character (again, ike comes to mind) never do a simple airdodge to get back to solid ground. Double hitting usmash ***** that, as well as his ridiculous grab ranges. Nair to him and land behind him definitely, he won't be able to pivot that fast from shield.

Apologies for any errors in spelling or advice, I'm tired and not actually good at the game.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I 'dunknow if you're talking about Forward Hydroplane (That very closely resembles a mortar slide) or the Shift'd Hydroplane (Where you pivot first) but yeah, both are easy if expected.

Olimar's recovery is argueably better at recovering if only because of the super armor/ better horizontal movement. Sans those, Ivysaur wins in that department. Getting hit by Razor Leaf can lead to you getting grabbed, for the record.

I don't really get what you're on about with Charizard. Are you suggesting to DI towards Charizard to get in a Fair? Either way, I think Charizard can avoid that kind of thing by angling Flamethrower. You'd have to get very close to the source and will have taken a lot of damage if you do that. Charizard isn't going to trick you into walking nto Fsmash once you're off-stage. He's going to chase you out there and finish the job. Like I said, he's pretty well equiped to swat you off with Bair and can stall the whistle stuffs.

Charizard's out-of shield behind him game isn't that bad because his jabs are good (At least, the first two). You try that buisness and you'll likely get Jab, Jab, Grab'd.

 

[OlimarFan]

I'll make this short:

Squirtle: Easy. You just need to watch out for the sliding usmash thingy (no idea what called, sorry) offstage fair/bair to legdeguard

Do you mean Shellshifting?

 

[Toby.]

He means hydroplaning. Basically can shoot very quickly either forwards or backwards into a charged upsmash. The slide range is about 3/4 of final destination, and the same thing can actually be done with fsmash as well, which has nifty super armour frames.

As Retro said, though, it's only actually useful if they don't see it coming.

 

[IcyLight]

I would recommend staying charizard or ivysaur at low percent and try to get squirtle out at higher percents for recovery purposes. Ivysaur and Charizard can do well against olimar if it's a good PT playing (not many of them which is why Oli > PT atm!) Charizard's rocksmash destroys any pikmin spraying and they can't WAC it either. It's a good spam move to use against Oli if you approach from air so he can't grab you. Don't over use because it will become predictable and then just pivot grab spammed to you. If you notice an Oli likes to stop approachers with a F-Smash then you can try power shield into a grab as charizard has fast grabbing. As far as Ivysaur goes, spamming razorleaf can be a pain in the *** for olimar if olimar is a very defensive player. If they try to approach from air use bullet seed or up-b. If they try to grab spam you, pivot grab like we do! :D
In my opinion, squirtle isn't too great vs. olimar because olimar has so many advantages against his small range. You can try to get a bunch of grabs on olimar but again olimar will likely grab you first.

This is all i can really donate o.O

 

[Trip.]

In my experience a Shellshiffted HP is predictable but a straight Hydroplane is just so rediculously surprisingly fast.

also Olimar sucks much of ledge. = squirtle is happy to play with you out there, zard too.

olimar ***** close range.... run away?

no really, i am serious.

just run away, sidestep , dodge and air dodge.

there is nothing more annoying that showing oli you dont give a **** how much he spams.

just avoid and kill all the precious pimkin he sends your way.

I feel that as long as you keep your cool and dont get to hasty and fall into playing plimars game that he is very managable if you understand the match up.

and i aslo think that if you dont understand the match up and are unexperience versus a good oil, you have no hope at all of winning.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I would recommend staying charizard or ivysaur at low percent and try to get squirtle out at higher percents for recovery purposes.

Charizard has the best recovery of the three. Squirtle's recovery is really pretty bad.

 

[Rocann]

I 'dunknow if you're talking about Forward Hydroplane (That very closely resembles a mortar slide) or the Shift'd Hydroplane (Where you pivot first) but yeah, both are easy if expected.

Olimar's recovery is argueably better at recovering if only because of the super armor/ better horizontal movement. Sans those, Ivysaur wins in that department. Getting hit by Razor Leaf can lead to you getting grabbed, for the record.

I don't really get what you're on about with Charizard. Are you suggesting to DI towards Charizard to get in a Fair? Either way, I think Charizard can avoid that kind of thing by angling Flamethrower. You'd have to get very close to the source and will have taken a lot of damage if you do that. Charizard isn't going to trick you into walking nto Fsmash once you're off-stage. He's going to chase you out there and finish the job. Like I said, he's pretty well equiped to swat you off with Bair and can stall the whistle stuffs.

Charizard's out-of shield behind him game isn't that bad because his jabs are good (At least, the first two). You try that buisness and you'll likely get Jab, Jab, Grab'd.

I obviously mean DI away and when they end their flamethrower, there is enough time for you to nail them with a fair. And you can always get away quick enough from the turn around and jab etc, it's better than landing in front of him. And unless you'd rather I say try to land on top of his head and ride him, there's no other option (barring platforms, which are obviously the better choice anyway.) And let's not be an *** here. If I'm offstage, of course I'm not walking. Falling/floating/whatever into a move to knock you back out, whether that's his bair, rock smash, dtilt, grab, fsmash, usmash, whatever. Charizard has ledgegames out the ***. Basically all I said was be careful, it's not easy to return vs a really good one.

 

[asob4]

me and typh had a discussion and quite a few matches on this

i was able to beat him every time

squirtle is the hardest if they're smart
charizard is easy, you need to watch out for his grabs and his kill moves. he can be comboed to death in every way possible. his edgeguarding was never a problem for me as i was always able to get around him
ivysaur was somewhat difficult. very predictable and easy to punish. also comboed easily and dies hella early due to gimping.
also, it's A LOT easier for olimar to recover than it is for ivysaur. olimar is too floaty compared to ivysaur.

just my 2 cents :/
i have no intention of replying to any arguments to my post

 

[Rocann]

yeah, comboing charizard is easy as balls because he doesn't really have many options above you as well as being really heavy.

 

[RichBrown]

me and typh had a discussion and quite a few matches on this

i was able to beat him every time

squirtle is the hardest if they're smart
charizard is easy, you need to watch out for his grabs and his kill moves. he can be comboed to death in every way possible. his edgeguarding was never a problem for me as i was always able to get around him
ivysaur was somewhat difficult. very predictable and easy to punish. also comboed easily and dies hella early due to gimping.
also, it's A LOT easier for olimar to recover than it is for ivysaur. olimar is too floaty compared to ivysaur.

just my 2 cents :/
i have no intention of replying to any arguments to my post

yeah, this is pretty much accurate. I play Typh all the time, he is REALLY good with PT. Squirtle is a pain because of the aerials, but you can shield grab them. Ivy is pretty easy to gimp. Charizard is probably the easiest matchup, as long as you are careful and don't stupidly fall into a rocksmash or something like that. I've found that charizard can be easily killed with Upsmash, he is such a big target and it's probably harder NOT to sweetspot it.

and to the guy who said charizard can't be gimped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-S_Cy3C0rg

lol @ 2:33

I played this match a week ago. I've improved my throw combos a lot since then haha.

 

[Retro Gaming]

and to the guy who said charizard can't be gimped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-S_Cy3C0rg

lol @ 2:33

I don't really think anyone said that. I'm pretty sure he didn't use his third jump, though. D=
I've seen the video before. Charizard did the most of his three Pokemon, even though he got a little Dtilt crazy right when he came out.

And let's not be an *** here. If I'm offstage, of course I'm not walking. Falling/floating/whatever into a move to knock you back out, whether that's his bair, rock smash, dtilt, grab, fsmash, usmash, whatever. Charizard has ledgegames out the ***. Basically all I said was be careful, it's not easy to return vs a really good one.

I wasn't trying to be mean in anyway but you gave a ground option, and versus a character like Olimar, it's just more effective to jump out. I mean, Fsmash near the ledge is probably when you'll land the move most, so I thought you were reffering to something like that. I wasn't being nitpicky about floating or whatever.

 

[RichBrown]

I doubt you would finish Charizard with a "simple edge guard." Firstly, Olimar can not stray far from the stage himself or risk getting reverse-gimped. Secondly, Charizard has multiple jumps with which to stall Olimar's edge-guard/ get back to the stage with, and Fly has super armour for what I think is about the first 30% of the attack.

that's what I was referring to. you are right though, he did really screw up the recovery. but if you can get charizard below the stage, even the extra jump doesn't give him too much of a lift, and the UpB is really easy to gimp.

yeah, i got destroyed by charizard in that particular match. That's one in probably hundreds of matches I've played against Typh, that usually doesn't happen against charizard. I normally have the easiest time against his Charizard, especially if I can latch a white or 2 (huge target) into a grab. Olimar has an advantage on slow heavy characters in general, and charizard is no exception.

 

[Steeler]

charizard can effectively play offensive and approach (rock smash, flamethrower, bair, nice dashgrab range, nice tilt range) AND defensively with...well flamethrower again for aerials, great shieldgrabbing, and great spacing game. the thing is...that olimar can do the same thing haha. i'll try and dissect this without making too many errors!

zard approaching oli

i think flamethrower's max range (when you first use it) is greater than oli's grab range with almost all his pikmin. white/blue may be the exceptions to this (and red doesn't care about ft), but i haven't fought a recent olimar. zard can also just shorthop the flamethrower and not worry about getting grabbed.

oli's smash range and ft's range are really similar, so i don't know who would win there. it may be irrelevant since pikmin won't like flamethrower in the face (excluding red). so on paper, with correct spacing charizard could catch oli on ft. naturally it won't always do insane damage since oli won't be right next to zard, but it's something to think about. flamethrower is a viable option for charizard, approaching a defensive olimar.

rock smash is just amazing haha. i could be wrong, but i think rock smash will fight through any pikmin attack oli has. that means that all zard should fear is getting grabbed before he gets to damage olimar. will olimar's grab successfully get zard if he's off the ground? pikmin spear might be a problem too, but zard doesn't have to be at a perfect 45 degree angle to olimar to actually hit with rs anyway. plus rock smash is a huge pikmin killer, any stray pikmin will usually die.

well, mixing up flamethrower and rock smashes can be effective...and can also rack up damage. zard, especially at 0%, really fears olimar's grab, because it can lead to some huge combo. flamethrower is a relatively safe option as long as zard mixes it up and isn't too predictable. defensive olimar will give charizard problems but nothing overwhelmingly serious, just because of that grab. zard has ways to get around it, just don't be too insanely predictable. mix in some normal approaches perhaps...

defending against olimar...i'll post later. i'm getting impatient. but zard shieldgrabs most aerial approaches, olimar's dashgrabs can give zard fits though. and pikmin throw is a little annoying because of zard's size. not sure what move is best to remove them.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Any latched Pikmin is removed and instantly killed by Rock Smash. Regardless of decay/fatigue.

 

[asob4]

on paper means nothing >_>

really, if you haven't faced a good olimar, then i see no credibility in your statements

i am a **** though, and i doubt my opinion means nothing to you as yours means nothing to me