Pokemon Trainer Socratic Discussion Thread

[Retro Gaming]

A long time ago Typh talked about setting up a sort of general discussion of loose flow and consciousness. I've been debating myself about the best way to exactly set this up in a way that it could be structured, and I think I have now come to a conclusion on how to proceed forward. I would like to try, to the best ability of the Pokemon Trainer boards, to carry out a Pokemon Trainer Socratic Discussion.

For those unfamiliar with the term, a Socratic Discussion is a conversation, a discussion, wherein two or more people assist one another in finding the answers to difficult questions. Socrates understood better than those with whom he spoke that it was not enough simply to "learn" facts, to memorize lessons, or to parrot lectures. To know truly, to seek wisdom, one must work toward understanding. If the question "what" leads us to see what we do and do not know, then the question "why" leads us to understand our world in a more full and fundamental manner.

The discussion method facilitates the student's quest for understanding by requiring him to answer questions on his own, to ponder the validity of what others have said or written, and (not the least of which) to give reasoned support of his own opinion to the other students in the group. While the discussion method is a powerful tool, it is by no means the only activity by which people learn.

Basically, this is simply a conversation led by the entire group (not an individual or head) in which we come to understand many things, including what we do not know. I will not impose a particular question to start or guidelines of the discussion within this thread, but there will be rules regarding the behavior of its participants. Because of the ease in derailing such a thread from its intent, I will be carefully monitoring this thread and will hand out infractions for almost anything that does not pertain to this thread. I'm not trying to discourage community or bonding, but for even minor off-topic discussions to begin in this thread would be very deconstructive to the purpose of this thread. There is a reason we have an off topic discussion, and if you want to start an off topic discussion, I will ask you to use that thread instead.

Here are some general rules of conduct:

1. Stay on the topic of the current discussion
2. Do not try to enter a discussion if you don't have any idea of what the recent discussion has been about (I will consider this derailing the thread).
3. There will be absolutely no trolling, flaming, or general demotivation of any of the participants of this thread. Even if someone posts the most ridiculous idea you have ever heard, you must remain civil in your response. You can disprove them, but do so respectfully.
4. In continuation of the above point, if you can't seem to take a hint that your idea is not accepted you should drop the idea from the discussion, at the very least for the time being.
5. Avoid any sort of unrelated portions of your post that would lead to derailing the thread (As in witty observations on the end of posts, things not related to the topic, etc.)
6. If I find that you are misusing this thread, then I will likely PM you and "ban" you from it for a time. If you post in it while you are "banned," then I will not hesitate to room ban you from the entire PT board.
7. Avoid not fully thought-out responses. If you're tired or not up to responding with a well constructed answer, it is better that you do not post. If your posts seem to consistently lack depth, I will infract you for spaming this thread.
8. In addition, I have the ability to use my discretion in deciding what works and does not work in this thread.

I will be actively following this thread daily, and I will be the most strict of any thread in here. This can be a very educational way to learn, but at the same time it is very easy for it to fail. Also consider that if there is frequent misuse of this thread then I will not hesitate to close it.

Also, in case some are not familiar with this style of discussion, here are some general tips:

1. Don't try to bring up a new area of discussion if you don't think that the current one is quite done yet. There's a difference between changing the subject and transitioning.
   On the other hand, if the discussionis coming to an end, you don't need to "ask for permission" to start a new topic.
2. If you disagree with someones opinions, that's fine. You can discuss why you disgaree with them, but avoid a fight.
3. Questions are valid methods of progressing the discussion. Don't hesitate to ask questions of anything said in this thread, whether to reaffirm someone's reasoning, come to better understand your lack of knowledge, or for other reasons.
4. Don't be afraid to ask large, overarching questions, but remember that to answer these it is often necessary to break them down into several small pieces before reaching a true consensus.

If I come up with something else as we go along, I'll add it here and denote a change in the title.

Whoever posts first can choose where we start as far as discussion with my approval.

 

[Magik0722]

Alright i would like to bring in the first object of discussion

That is the glitch that happens when you get KOd by a pokemon, and the pokemon that is sent out automactically does a jump or a upB.
I would like to bring this forth because at this last hobo i realized something useful that can come out of it
It relates to zero switching


Everyone knows that charizard gets no jumps when he zero switches (you can see where i am going with this). Alot of people knew this as well at the tournament and punished my zard with a grab because of it. During a match i had my charizard actually jumped immediately after a swtich, so i am assuming it is because of that glitch, so i would like to find out how it is done and how we can apply it to charizards zero switch to avoid punishment

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Alright i would like to bring in the first object of discussion

That is the glitch that happens when you get KOd by a pokemon, and the pokemon that is sent out automactically does a jump or a upB.
I would like to bring this forth because at this last hobo i realized something useful that can come out of it
It relates to zero switching


Everyone knows that charizard gets no jumps when he zero switches (you can see where i am going with this). Alot of people knew this as well at the tournament and punished my zard with a grab because of it. During a match i had my charizard actually jumped immediately after a swtich, so i am assuming it is because of that glitch, so i would like to find out how it is done and how we can apply it to charizards zero switch to avoid punishment

That is how we figured out Zero Switch.

My understanding is that the game just buffers whatever action you were doing when you died.

 

[Magik0722]

Can anyone gather up some videos of it happening in some matches?

 

[CoonTail]

I believe its right after you die like the actual frames the explosion or w.e animation occurs for your death you can put this input in. I tend to get upset and hit buttons right before I die and Ive seen this happen alot upon my poke jus coming off the little new life platform your dropped in on. The exact timing needs to be found

 

[Magik0722]

If it happens when you die, can someone explain how i got zard to jump out of a zero switch?

 

[CoonTail]

Im sure it applies when you zero switch too so its more or less we need to find the exact frames where this can be input which is most likely right as the explosion happens as you die or right as the pokeballs lights are pulling the pokemon back into the pokeball during the down b.

 

[T-block]

now that i think about it, i've done it too actually

one possibility, which has no testing by me whatsoever to back it up atm, is that we buffer a jump so that he jumps as soon as he comes out. so, 10-frame window before the switch finishes to buffer a jump. do you remember if it looked like a normal jump or a double jump?

 

[Magik0722]

It looked like a normal jump, i saw none of those circles below his feet as well

 

[Steeler]

if you didn't see the air jump circles then perhaps you held toward the platform (so you stayed grounded) and jumped as soon as you came out

did everyone down there seriously know how zero switching works? :\

 

[Magik0722]

I dont think you can just hold the direction towards the platform, every time i do i dont stay landed on the platform. I also dont remember pressing the jump button and i have tap jump off.


But yeah basically everyone knew about i and even knew zard gets no jumps

 

[Steeler]

man that's ****in bull****

also you can hold toward the platform to stay on but i have trouble doing it too idk

 

[Toby.]

It's tricky, but you can definitely hold towards the platform and not have to fall of. I've done instant tilts out of a zero switch.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Who uses Charizard the most? I'm really surprised that most people don't use him, all I see is people that are pro with Squirtle. D: †

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

♪ Who uses Charizard the most? I'm really surprised that most people don't use him, all I see is people that are pro with Squirtle. D: †

Im the only Charizard main.

 

[Tien2500]

Im the only Charizard main.

Not really. I main him too. But Squirtle is better.

 

[Magik0722]

Ok mystery solved, it was buffering as we all guessed

I just simply mashed the jump button during the transformation and charizard came out in a jump, same with the other pokemon. I had problems buffering a upB though, sometimes it would just B instead. Oh well, at least we can give charizard a jump now. If anyone cares about the specific timing, it seems to be after you see the pokemon "ghost" go back into the trainers pokeball and before the next one comes out, or maybe thats just hte squrit -> ivy transition, i couldnt get it in the others.


Also its funny to see squirtle and ivy go so high they can get the first buffered jump than two extra jumps and a upB

 

[CoonTail]

It's tricky, but you can definitely hold towards the platform and not have to fall of. I've done instant tilts out of a zero switch.

Did no one see this....Toby you have stumbled upon something ridiculously interesting.....buffering tilts out of zero switches?!?!! If this is the case what else can we do out of a zero switch.



Now seeing we can get Zard to get a jump, I dont see the point honestly in buffering an up-b out of a zero switch unless maybe we can do it on stages like Delfino or ones where we know a Zard up-B can land exactly on a platform and cancel his landing lag like reflex brought up a while ago.


So overall it looks like we just have to mash jump as hold away from the stage to get zard his jump....so does this mean we have to hold toward the stage and mash the tilt input to get instant tilts??

 

[Magik0722]

Id like to upB with zard out of a switch if my opponent is next to me while i switch, or trying to land a grab undeer the platform in smashvile.

 

[Bomber7]

Sometimes either I jump or use withdrawl, it gets kind of annoying because I don't want to jump or charge my watergun or use withdrawl after Squirtle comes out his pokeball, or in Ivysaur's case, use bullet seed which can get punished.

 

[CoonTail]

It jus means your inputting those commands in the buffer period bomber if you dont like doing that make sure if you know your gonna die to stop touching your controller....at this point it looks like you should only be attempting this during a zero switch

 

[Bomber7]

this most commonly happens to me after I die and the next pokemon comes out, not during a zero switch. However I'm learning to not touch my controller regardless so that way I don't get screwed up by using an attack as soon as I come out.

 

[Zigsta]

The only thing I've done out of a zero switch with Charizard is Rock Smash and Flamethrower, haha.

It seems we've figured out Magik's question. So...moving on?

 

[Magik0722]

Sure i you have something to offer go ahead

 

[Retro Gaming]

Sure i you have something to offer go ahead

Here's something I missed. While you shouldn't try to walk over a stem of conversation, if you see that it is indeed coming to a close, you don't need to "ask for permission" to start a new topic. Just make sure your topic is actually worth discussing.

The only thing I've done out of a zero switch with Charizard is Rock Smash

This could actually have a purpose if you do it off of a platform and the Rock Smash happens in the air; basically the equivalent of SH Rock Smash but out of a switch.

I actually think that jump buffering out of the switch would be even more useful if we could enter things like SH Rock Smash or rising aerials, or something like that.

 

[Zigsta]

Oh okay, I gotcha, Retro.

This could actually have a purpose if you do it off of a platform and the Rock Smash happens in the air; basically the equivalent of SH Rock Smash but out of a switch.

That's what I usually do, yeah. Pivoted Rock Smashes out of a zero switch work great too--a lot of times people expect a normal Rock Smash and attempt to punish you from the side, but a pivoted one corrects that. Of course, some people just don't approach at all when I zero switch.

 

[T-block]

^i think most people will start trying to punish the zero switch once they're more used to it, particularly when switching to zard with no jumps. when i ivysaur cancel on smashville my brother likes to run under the platform and use lucas' u-smash. then there's really nothing you can do, except this jump buffering thing

 

[Toby.]

If you buffer correctly you can probably do a shield instead of a tilt out of the switch, which would of course protect you from those sorts of shenanigans.

 

[T-block]

yeah that sounds really interesting...i'm gonna have to do some playing around later

grab right out of switch sounds really cool for charizard

 

[Bestiarius]

If it's so problematic zero switching to Charizard, do the costs outweigh the benefits of switching regularly?

 

[Zigsta]

If it's so problematic zero switching to Charizard, do the costs outweigh the benefits of switching regularly?

In some situations, using Ivysaur is practically a deathwish. I'd much rather zero switch to Charizard and risk the chance of getting punished than get wrecked as Ivysaur.

 

[T-block]

not even close =\

switching regularly means you're pretty much guaranteed to be hit with pretty much whatever move your opponent wants to use. zero switching to charizard can still be fairly easy to punish since you get no jumps, but at least it limits what your opponent can use to hit you.

 

[Steeler]

i like switching a lot when the opponent is at high percent

so if i didn't kill, i at least get to advance my rotation

 

[T-block]

i think switching more and finding smarter switching strategies is one way to advance PT's metagame. fatigue hurts, and against our harder matchups it's a lot more important to stay fresh. switch orders like squirtle -> ivy/zard -> squirtle are probably only going to be optimal in a certain few matchups

that's my opinion, but what do i know? ^^

 

[Magik0722]

I have been attempting to zero switch all the way back to the pokemon i was currently on, to restore all my moves. Good / bad idea?

 

[T-block]

i'm not so sure

on smashville or rainbow cruise it'll take around 20-30 secs to cycle back to your original. that'll restore 33-50 points of stamina. if your oringial pokemon is completely fatigued at 200 points, that's not even enough to get you to fresh. if you do it as soon as you're fatigued, at 120 points, it'll only buy you 33-50 move/seconds of fresh time, which is what...30 seconds at best?

i think it might be a good idea if you're really trying for the KO. even then, in most matchups i would probably just try to get the KO with a different pokemon, instead of trying to get back to your original

 

[Magik0722]

I was talking about move decay not fatigue there

 

[T-block]

oh gotcha

it just seems like a lot of effort for something like move decay. it's almost like it'd be easier to hit them with over moves than it would be to switch all the way

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I have been attempting to zero switch all the way back to the pokemon i was currently on, to restore all my moves. Good / bad idea?

I feel that this is bad, because while your moves are fresh (good thing) you are still just as fatigued (very very bad).

 

[Zigsta]

I think that's a good thing to do in matchups where you feel that two out of your three Pokemon just aren't working, ie Marth, MK. Usually, though, I find that at least 2 of 'em work just fine, so zero switching the one that's not working is typically what I do.

I'm not saying that there are some characters that 2 out of the 3 Pokemon always don't work; I'm saying that sometimes you get matched up with someone who plays very well against 2 out of your 3 Pokemon. Typically in this scenario, one of your Pokemon will be able to pick up the slack.