Pokemon Trainer in Balanced Brawl

[Charizard92]

Pokemon Trainer was designed to work as a 3-in-1 Character. This is essentially translates to team orientation. Zelda and Shiek are considered two separate Characters linked together (Same with Samus). PT wasn't designed like this, and thus SOME system to promote using the other two is necessary. Currently, the problem is that the current system is unforgiving (2 minutes is not enough, especially when you lose seconds for each attack you land), and it requires a full blown strategy to find an opening for switching, so a modified system is of need.

 

[Steeler]

PT is three characters. Auto switch is the game's way of making you use all three (which makes stamina unnecessary and redundant, but that's a different argument). With no auto switch, you NEVER have to switch. This is different from another suggested change like a quicker switching animation or switching in respawn invincibility. You'd simply NEVER have to switch ever and could main a single pokemon. And you wouldn't really have incentive to switch if you started as your best matchup against the opponent. Unless stamina was still in play, in which case...why would you want to play a "normal" character (ie a single character that doesn't switch) if they have a disadvantage that no other normal character has?

Making it possible for PT to switch more freely is fine, making it possible for PT to never switch is not fine. It goes against the basis of the character itself. And you can't compare this to changing something like Ike's QD...Ike is still very much the basis of himself, which is a slow swordsman with ridiculous KO power and a limited recovery (he can only really travel in cardinal directions, still, but it's more effective above and just as bad when he's even with the stage or below it). MK has had three of his moves weakened but he is still very much the quick, ranged, combo character with the best recovery and gimp game, he's just not as ridiculously good at setting his gimps up. Removing auto-switch is simply making PT into something he isn't. And that doesn't line up with the goals of BBrawl, which is to keep it quite similar to the normal game with slight adjustments to balance where needed. Thus it has no place in that game.

yay post 2700

 

[Ryusuta]

Making it possible for PT to switch more freely is fine, making it possible for PT to never switch is not fine.

The very basis for the character is stupid, lopsided, and unfair, and should be done away with for those reasons.

Just because it's the way the character was "intended" doesn't mean that it's the way it should be.

 

[Steeler]

you are missing my point

which is that buffing the switching system so that it isn't stupid, lopsided, and unfair is MUCH more desirable than doing away with it entirely

 

[Sulfur]

I understand what Steeler is saying, but I just don't get why you would want to keep it. Imagine if for some odd reason MK, DDD, and Kirby were all on the same team with fatigue, etc. Would they have been seperated by now?
Yes, months ago.

I think what's holding this back is just the lack of PT mains. And the fact that other people don't want a new threat out there. People want to stick with their high tier mains, and not worry about a new challenger.
I agree that PT was made to be a team, but what's the problem with keeping the team, AND seperating them?

 

[Steeler]

i don't think there's a problem with it, but it doesn't match up with the goals of the bbrawl project. not that it's totally out of the question since the codes already exist, it's just a matter of whether future bbrawl TO's want to allow them.

 

[Thinkaman]

The very basis for the character is stupid, lopsided, and unfair, and should be done away with for those reasons.

This has been said about Ice Climbers, Olimar, Lucario, Meta Knight, and many other characters. I would simply suggest not playing characters you consider stupid and fatally flawed.

 

[Ryusuta]

This has been said about Ice Climbers, Olimar, Lucario, Meta Knight, and many other characters. I would simply suggest not playing characters you consider stupid and fatally flawed.

No, I've already explained the difference. Pokemon Trainer is the ONLY case in the entire SERIES in which you aren't given complete control over every aspect of your character. You have NO SAY in auto-switch, and can't decide when/if to use the next Pokemon after you die. It's part of his character, but it's a stupid part of his character.

Basically, death automatically forces your character to do a special move without input from the player. How much would Samus players like it if, after every time they died, Samus automatically did a Screw Attack after respawning? Or Ganon throws out a Warlock Punch after respawning?

The point is, you don't get to control an important aspect of your character, and therefore it's an unfair thing to impose on your character.

 

[typh]

ANOTHER STUPID ARGUMENT BY STUPID PEOPLE ABOUT STUPID HACKS AND THE STUPID SWITCHING SYSTEM

please, shut the **** up

it doesn't even ****ing matter

no hacks that change gameplay will ever be allowed in serious tournaments, ever, and you're a ****** for wasting more than a minute of your life "arguing" about stupid **** like this.

shut. the. ****. up.

 

[Steeler]

i think i just got told

OH SNAP

 

[Excellence]

i think i just got told

OH SNAP

I haven't had friendlies of any kind with you for a long time. Want to play a few games?

 

[Ryusuta]

ANOTHER STUPID ARGUMENT BY STUPID PEOPLE ABOUT STUPID HACKS AND THE STUPID SWITCHING SYSTEM

please, shut the **** up

it doesn't even ****ing matter

no hacks that change gameplay will ever be allowed in serious tournaments, ever, and you're a ****** for wasting more than a minute of your life "arguing" about stupid **** like this.

shut. the. ****. up.

Umm... except there are several Brawl+ tournaments popping up all over the country now, and B-Brawl looks to have the same potential.

 

[Tien2500]

No, I've already explained the difference. Pokemon Trainer is the ONLY case in the entire SERIES in which you aren't given complete control over every aspect of your character. You have NO SAY in auto-switch, and can't decide when/if to use the next Pokemon after you die. It's part of his character, but it's a stupid part of his character.

Basically, death automatically forces your character to do a special move without input from the player. How much would Samus players like it if, after every time they died, Samus automatically did a Screw Attack after respawning? Or Ganon throws out a Warlock Punch after respawning?

The point is, you don't get to control an important aspect of your character, and therefore it's an unfair thing to impose on your character.

Don't play Trainer? Why is it unfair? How is it unfair to have a character switching as you die? Does it somehow make trainer broken and unplayable? Its absolutely fair. You totally have control over the situation. You control it by either picking or not picking PT.

Balanced Brawl is supposed to be about making the game balanced and PT can be a balanced character without changing the stamina/autoswitching system.

 

[Ryusuta]

Don't play Trainer?

I like Pokemon Trainer.

Why is it unfair? How is it unfair to have a character switching as you die?

Because it's the only instance in the entire series in which you are forced to use a special move with no input on the player's behalf. I used the Screw Attack analogy earlier to explain this.

It also forces you to turn a matchup against your favor.

Does it somehow make trainer broken and unplayable?

No. And I never said it did.

 

[Tien2500]

I like Pokemon Trainer.



Because it's the only instance in the entire series in which you are forced to use a special move with no input on the player's behalf. I used the Screw Attack analogy earlier to explain this.

It also forces you to turn a matchup against your favor.



No. And I never said it did.

It doesn't force you to do anything at all. You chose to use Pokemon trainer and when you chose him you knew he was going to switch anytime he got KOed. So you chose to do that when you picked trainer.

I don't get this "they're the only one who does it" argument. Just because you're the only one doesn't make it unfair. There are a lot of characters who have weird attributes. Two ice climbers, Olimar's reliance on Pikmin, Yoshi's shield, Jiggly's shieldbreak KO, Lucario's strength increase, ZSS' armor pieces, Ness/Lucas' grab release, Squirtle's shellfifting, ROB's footstool animation, Sonic's nonsweetspotting recovery that leaves a spring on the ground, Pit's gimpable recovery (only one whose Up B isn't restored when he's attacked), Samus' Zair (ok well three characters can do that one), ZSS' tether (only one that doesn't leave you in helpless) Gliding (again only 3), MKs UP B (only one that leads to a glide), Peaches floating, Peach's ability to pull out items (beam sword), Marth's tippered attacks, etc.

My point is alot of characters have unique things that only they do. Its only unfair if it presents an extreme burden that places your character at a significant disadvantage (Or I suppose if it gives such a large advantage that they're broken good) and I don't believe that this does.

Samus' screw attack is really too different to compare. The only special move you can really compare it to is Zelda's.

And the ability to switch may sometimes turns a matchup against you but the ability to switch also can turn a matchup in your favor.

Of course I wouldn't be opposed if it was decided to have Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivy as their own characters. It would be fun but I don't think its necessary or that the current system is unfair.

 

[Ryusuta]

It doesn't force you to do anything at all. You chose to use Pokemon trainer and when you chose him you knew he was going to switch anytime he got KOed. So you chose to do that when you picked trainer.

I know it would force me to do a special move upon dieing, so it doesn't force me to use a special move upon dieing? I'd need a road map to be able to follow your logic.

I don't get this "they're the only one who does it" argument.

My point is alot of characters have unique things that only they do. Its only unfair if it presents an extreme burden that places your character at a significant disadvantage (Or I suppose if it gives such a large advantage that they're broken good) and I don't believe that this does.

I do, for reasons I've outlined before. R.O.B.'s footstool animation and Yoshi's shield doesn't suddenly change a 60:40 match-up into a 30:70 matchup. The match-up stays constant.

Samus' screw attack is really too different to compare. The only special move you can really compare it to is Zelda's.

I meant it as an example - specifically indicating the inconvenience of it all.

And the ability to switch may sometimes turns a matchup against you but the ability to switch also can turn a matchup in your favor.

The problem: in many cases, it's not realistic to do so without getting punished.

 

[Laos Oman]

So in the end, they ended up making switching more viable by raising the exit and entrance speed, as seen here. Stamina and autoswitch remain unchanged - as they should be. Pokémon Trainer is a team, ****it, especially in Balanced Brawl.

((Yes, I know it's a necropost. I didn't want to create a new topic when an old one is available.))

 

[Astartes]

i think that giving invincibility frames during the switch would make the whole team thing more viable. also i think that they should get rid of stamina and keep auto switching. we are forced to switch anyways why do we need to add anymore incentive

 

[Bowser_Gangsta]

I feel like Invincibility frames during switchout takes away some strategy for switching. And if they got rid of stamina everyone would main Squirtle( although Id join the bandwagon for Ivysaur).

 

[Steeler]

you can't main squirtle because you'd switch after you die. :s

 

[Bowser_Gangsta]

After playing around with him, I'm really happy with the Ivysaur changes to his aerial damage and Vine Whip of course. Alot more survivability and BAir is beast in BBrawl.

 

[Astartes]

the more i play PT the more i am getting pissed by stamina. it is not even close to be nessecary and it really stops squirtle from being his best. i like the othre changes in BB but they need to take out stamina

 

[Elliot Gale]

The stamina factor is part of what makes PT team who they are. If you remove that, you encourage a play style that goes against what the character was intended to do.

 

[Steeler]

if you keep it, you encourage an opponent play style that is really really really gay

x)