Pokedex Entry 12: R.O.B.

[Onxy]

Okay, so Bullet Seed might come out on one frame and ROB's is slightly slower. It doesn't have very good horizontal range. ROB's D-smash has good horizontal range and is safe on block or miss.[I]It doesn't have good horizontal range. I'm talking about the Dsmash[/I]

ROB's F-tilt, D-tilt, Jab, and F-air are pretty much faster than all of her attacks. ROB's D-tilt pretty much can't be punished if I recall correctly, and it causes tripping, which can get him combos into other stuff.No they are not.... Ivy is the quicker attacker as far as startup time goes

Ivysaur's advantages don't matter much however when the only thing ROB needs to do is shieldgrab, B-throw, and read an air dodge. She doesn't have any reliable gimps on ROB, and she can't try to play keep away from ROB because that will get her projectile camped. The matchup forces Ivysaur to approach ROB, and when she inevitably does, it's quite easy for ROB to set up a gimp. Ivy's advantages don't matter? I don't even want to respond to this after reading that, but I will anyway. Ivy's Razor Leaf cuts through the Gyro, so it helps. Ivy can't really gimp ROB, or even the other 2....Infact hardly any of the cast can. Luckly Ivy can abuse him for having a slow up B with attacks like Bair, Fair, Vinewhip, Razor Leaf, etc. It's going to be hard for ROB to grab Ivy do to her mean defense game, so stop saying like it's going to happen right away with no problem.

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf probably lose 9/1 to MK. They can't approach him at all because F-airs stop EVERYTHING they do, and once they are off stage, they will get gimped.

10charactersftl

 

[A2ZOMG]

Frame Data from this Japanese site:
ROB
Jab: 3
F-tilt: 7
U-tilt: 4
D-tilt: 3
DA: 7
U-smash: 12
D-smash: 4?
F-smash: 13
Laser: 25

Ivysaur
Jab: 7
F-tilt: 6
U-tilt: 9
D-tilt: 4
U-smash: 26
D-smash: 16
F-smash: 15
Bullet Seed: 4?


Dunno about D-smash and Bullet Seed. But the general idea is clear. ROB is overall a faster character than Ivysaur. Ivysaur's F-tilt starts faster, but ROB's has less ending lag and can be angled. w/e

ROB doesn't NEED to Gyro in this matchup. All he has to do is laser and there is nothing Ivysaur can do about it but approach.

I'll give that ROB can't air dodge while recovering, but Ivysaur can't jump more than 5 feet away from the stage, so edgeguarding him is really a moot point. Besides, he can hover away from the stage and camp back if necessary.

ROB has huge grab range, and Ivysaur is not a mobile character, so grabbing her is not difficult. ROB doesn't even have to approach her. He has the advantage by simply camping her out, which eventually forces her to approach.

 

[Onxy]

Can't agree with most of the frame data, as Bullet Seed has the same startup time as ZSS' jab. You didn't include the aerials either. ROB has faster smashes, that's it really.

If characters like Charizard even have a hard time grabbing Ivysaur because of her defense game. What makes you think ROB will be able to do it? Did you even consider Razor Leaf in this matchup? Ivy's approach isn't bad. Bair's, Fair's, Nair's, or Razor Leaf + grab works well.

Edit: Trust me, Ivy has faster tilts. And overall faster aerials, or at least the commonly used ones. Don't confuse fast with spammy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If I read the site right, Ivy has a 4 frame N-air and B-air.

ROB's F-air is 7 frames, but it's faster than the other aerials she has, including F-air.

ROB has better tilts and a way better Jab anyhow.

Charizard can't really camp Ivysaur. ROB however has a ridiculous camping game.

Razor Leaf is shut down by laser camping most of the time. It might come out just a few frames slower than RL, but actually reacting to that is a different story.

 

[Onxy]

If I read the site right, Ivy has a 4 frame N-air and B-air.

ROB's F-air is 7 frames, but it's faster than the other aerials she has, including F-air.

Charizard can't really camp Ivysaur. ROB however has a ridiculous camping game.

Razor Leaf is shut down by laser camping most of the time. It might come out just a few frames slower than RL, but actually reacting to that is a different story.

Ivy has a 2 frame Nair actually.

I didn't ask you if Charizard was a better camper. I only mentioned grabbing.

Razor Leaf is shut down? What does that mean?

My point is, that you're not only blowing Ivy's weakness out of proportion, you are making Ivy out to be the worst thing in existance. She has bad mobillity, and recovery. What else is new? Any other "horrible" weaknesses that Ivy has?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Because ROB has superior camping, Ivysaur is limited to playing a tight spacing game vs ROB, which ROB can always retreat from and shoot another laser at if he desires. She is not a mobile character, so dashgrabbing her from a powershield as she lands on the ground is not impossible. Not even that hard actually, although it takes guts.

Ivysaur is better than Captain Falcon, at least. Falcon has zero good attacks and a fairly easily gimped recovery.

 

[yostuffstank]

ivysaur r0x0rs my b0x0rs.. best pokemon in the game.

ANYWAY.. constantly bair-ing rob's recovery is pretty effective. fast, long range, and it cancels rob's upb, forcing him to upb again where ivy can bair again and again.

i think ivy's edge guard is pretty effective.

 

[Onxy]

Why wont Ivy's Razor Leaf be useful in this match, since you are never mentioning it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've said it like a million times, but whatever. What ROB can do is anticipate whenever Ivysaur will use Razor leaf, laser, and it will stop it from coming out. This works against other projectile campers like Mario very effectively.

Razor Leaf isn't a very threatening projectile anyway, since you can usually hit through it, and it's slow. And lasers outrange it by a lot. It also has rather significant cooldown unlike ROB's laser, which has almost no cooldown.

Ivysaur can only B-air ROB if he recovers very badly.

 

[Onxy]

That's not a real advantage there. Why can't I just say that I can just anticipate his laser, and dodge it. ROB is not going to stop her Razor Leaf like that, only if the Ivy stands there and does it.

Elaborate on the last thing you said about the Bair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a real advantage. Ivysaur will almost always SH Razor leaf like any projectile spammer. ROB can wait for the short hop and then laser, and she won't be able to camp back.

If Ivysaur manages to start razor leaf anyway, she will get hit by the laser, and ROB will be able to avoid the leaf anyway since his laser has low cooldown.

ROB's laser is NOT particularly easy to read. His stance doesn't reveal when he's going to laser very obviously.

B-air edgeguard is silly. Simple enough. ROB can hover understage where the B-air can't reach him and wait for the attack to end before going to the ledge.

 

[Toby.]

A2ZOMG: No need to leave. Your contributions are appreciated by everyone except onxy. That having been said, you'll find that ivysaur has which a few options which can make ROB squirm. He definitely has the advantage, but it would be better if we started off proving that he has a slight advantage before jumping to 9:1.

Onxy: calm down! You need to actually back up all this talk about frame data with evidence rather than 'trust me'. From a logical standpoint A2ZOMG is just fine at the moment. He has a source. Your rudeness isn't helping things either.

Yes, 9:1 is an unrealistic ratio. Yes, onxy, you have a lot of experience with ivysaur. We respect that. Don't let your ego get in the way of what is supposed to be unbiased analysis.

Edit: onxy, its established that rob is an awesome camper. I think we should stop trying to prove that ivysaur can get through it (and an airdodge is actually fairly simply to punish) and instead determine how much if puts the matchup in robs favour. He is a better camper. We should move onto to combat that is equal to or less than ivysaurs bair.

 

[Onxy]

If he was just someone that came around here and said things like this from time to time, it would be fine. A2ZOMG has shown such bias towards Ivysaur for months. Not only in this forum, but in many others. It also seems like he doesn't have much of a clue what he is talking about PT in general. Even Elliot Gale had to point out things that were wrong that were said by A2ZOMG back then in a different thread. I would get some URL's here with frame data, but I can't find them.... The fact that his source says that Bullet Seed has a 4 frame startup, makes me ignore the rest of that. If they got that wrong, what else might be wrong? Right now I'm saying that it's a 45:55 for Ivysaur, but a 1:9 for Ivy is the most absurd thing I've ever read in this board.

@A2ZOMG: So if Ivy gets hit by a laser once, that's it? No more Razor Leafs for Ivy? What are you talking about? And yes ROB's laser telegraphs too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, 9/1, 8/2, you could interchange those ratios. At those levels, the main point I'm trying to make is that a top level Ivysaur is probably never going to win against a top level R.O.B. This is the matchup where you press Down-B.

Whoa, now you're taking this out of context. The point I've been trying to make is that ROB outcamps Ivysaur. Razor Leaf is simply not a very good projectile, and ROB has enough time to defend against it after shooting a laser. Laser camping punishes most of what Ivysaur can do, and can interrupt Razor leaf camping viably since it's not a particularly easy projectile to react to.

 

[Onxy]

If it is interupted once, why can't Ivy throw more? ROB has to wait a few seconds before he can throw another one.

Do you realize what a 9/1 or 8/2 means? I can beat ROBs who are slightly less skilled than me. If Ivy was at such a disadvantage like that, I would never win. I've played good ROBs with Ivy and won about half of the time. If the matchup was that bad. I wouldn't win even once. Well.......MAYBE once. A brain-dead animal could beat a great Ivysaur with ROB if it was a 9/1. Stop pulling numbers out of your arse.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I use Ganondorf and I can beat MKs that are slightly less skilled than me. That doesn't change the fact the matchup is somewhere around 9/1 or 8/2 for Ganon. I also win 7 out of 10 times vs G&W players with Ganondorf, even though the matchup is more likely 7/3 AGAINST Ganon.

Matchup ratios apply to high level tournament play. Sorry if you didn't understand that.

Now the matchups where a brain dead person can win are 99/1 or 100/0. A good example of that is Marth vs Ness.

 

[Onxy]

Matchup ratios can apply almost anywhere. The only time it wouldn't apply is if they are just starting the game.

Answer my question about Ivysaur.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sure, you could try to throw a razor leaf in the time ROB is recharging his laser, but it's not going to really do anything to him, since he'll retreat and prepare to camp you again. That time is better spent trying to close distance between him so that he CAN'T camp you and so you don't give him time to get close to the ledge in the event he's eager to grab you. You should mainly watch out for his Gyro when you're closing distance, since that comes out pretty fast, and he can glidetoss combo into a U-smash.

ROB is pretty gay up close though even not grabbing Ivysaur, and whiffing a grab against him sucks.

 

[yostuffstank]

If Ivysaur manages to start razor leaf anyway, she will get hit by the laser, and ROB will be able to avoid the leaf anyway since his laser has low cooldown.

LOL.. this biggest BS i ever seen/heard. laser has no cooldown? that projectile is the epitome of cooldown. rob can't shoot even his weakest laser for a couple seconds after using it.

 

[Onxy]

Ivy will throw Razor Leafs while approaching ROB. IDK where ROB is going to retreat to while recharging, but okay. Ivy is actually really good in melee combat. She has very long ranged attacks that are very quick also. Ivy out-ranges ROB in melee combat, and ROB is a really big target. Ivy can combo ROB really badly because of it, and it makes it really easy to space him. Getting thrown into the air or off stage is really bad for Ivy, and that's why I'm thinking it's 45/55. Ivy has options to get down (like Dair), but has limited options when trying to recover. ROB can zone Ivysaur with Fair if ROB gets inside Ivysaur, and it's much more of a worry than his grab.

 

[Toby.]

LOL.. this biggest BS i ever seen/heard. laser has no cooldown? that projectile is the epitome of cooldown. rob can't shoot even his weakest laser for a couple seconds after using it.

He means end lag, not cool down. That is pretty clear.

A2ZOMG, 9:1/8:2 are still way too much.

What is ROBs response to an autocancelled fair or bair -> ftilt?

Edit: And I'd be interested to know just how far robs ftilt reachers. I think i remember overswarm saying at some point that its longer than marths ftilt. Thats pretty considerable considering its so fast to begin with.

 

[Itburns]

Im gonnahave to agree with onyx here,

I really think you underestimate razorleaf, the point you make that razorleafs come from a short hop. that may be true.. but I honestly do the same amount of grounded razor leafs than arieal ones.

also.. i read somewhere that razorleaf goes through robs spinny top... that is incorrect BUT it doesnt go through a lazer whether its charged or not.

Also inregards to its speed, did you know you can adjust the speed and distance based on the strength you push the direction.. if you tilt it it goes 1/4 and is slightly slow, where if you smash it it will go halfway and goes slightly faster... try it if you dont believe me.

I guess the point im trying to make is that razorleaf is an important role to play vs any matchup because it has the ability to interupt and because it curves it can catch shorthoppers alot. When you have a move as annoying as ivysaurs razor leaf it will force you to approach. Razorleaf is a very important part of ivysaurs spacing game.

In my experience playing camping robs vs aggresive robs camping robs are alot easier to fight with ivysaur then aggressive ones... especially ones that have really good glidetoss set ups.

spinnytop > laser in regards to ivysaur.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ROB should PS the F-air and grab Ivysaur as she comes down.

B-air -> F-tilt probably can be F-aired out of.

 

[Onxy]

Razor Leaf cuts threw the Gyro.

 

[Onxy]

ROB should PS the F-air and grab Ivysaur as she comes down.
A vertically tipped Fair cannot be grabbed. Ivysaur does not come down when done right, because she can jump right after.

B-air -> F-tilt probably can be F-aired out of.
How if ROB is on the ground?

10charactersftl.

 

[Itburns]

Razor Leaf cuts threw the Gyro.

you are incorrect sir, test it out... cuts through a gyro not spinning.

 

[Onxy]

If you throw a Razor Leaf after ROB throws his out, it will cut threw it.

 

[Tien2500]

I use Ganondorf and I can beat MKs that are slightly less skilled than me. That doesn't change the fact the matchup is somewhere around 9/1 or 8/2 for Ganon. I also win 7 out of 10 times vs G&W players with Ganondorf, even though the matchup is more likely 7/3 AGAINST Ganon.

Matchup ratios apply to high level tournament play. Sorry if you didn't understand that.

Now the matchups where a brain dead person can win are 99/1 or 100/0. A good example of that is Marth vs Ness.

No you can't. If you're beating an MK with G-dorf you're more skilled than them. If you're winning 7/10 matches with Ganon than your opponent sucks. At equal levels towards the higher end of play (not at the highest level necessarily but at the level where players are good enough to use their characters advantages well) you should win about 3/10 matches with Dorf against Game and Watch. There are no 100/0 matchups because that would mean its absolutely a mathematical impossibility. Ivy is nowhere near as hopeless against ROB as Dorf is to MK.

Sure, you could try to throw a razor leaf in the time ROB is recharging his laser, but it's not going to really do anything to him, since he'll retreat and prepare to camp you again. That time is better spent trying to close distance between him so that he CAN'T camp you and so you don't give him time to get close to the ledge in the event he's eager to grab you. You should mainly watch out for his Gyro when you're closing distance, since that comes out pretty fast, and he can glidetoss combo into a U-smash.

ROB is pretty gay up close though even not grabbing Ivysaur, and whiffing a grab against him sucks.

Ivy's leaves aren't that slow and ROB isn't that fast. How exactly is he getting out of Ivy's razor leaf range that quickly? And razor leaf sout prevent glide tossing of the gyro and I believe if you predict the gyro (not incredibly tough) can deflect it on the initial throw. And yeah as you said Ivy can close the distance and prevent ROB from camping... so why exactly is this matchup so hopeless?

Oh and Ivy shouldn't really be grabbing carelessly anyway. She has better, safer options to use here.

 

[Itburns]

no it will not onyx... im serious i just turned on my wii and tried it... a spinning gyro will not cut through a razor leaf...

if it has stopped spinning it will go through it... but whether you throw it /before after a razor leaf will not go through a spinning gyro

 

[A2ZOMG]

10charactersftl.

Stop replying within quotes. I hate it when people do that because it makes it difficult for me to arrange replies.

There is a difference between autocanceling and an aerial completing in midair. Anyhow, after ROB PSes the F-air, he can probably U-smash if Ivysaur wants to jump or he can do other attacks.

ROB is in the air if he's retreating and lasering. If he's on the ground, he's shielding. You're probably not going to punish him for lasering with a B-air anyway.

He can also probably SDI some hits to avoid other combos but whatever, I don't think it's a big deal at all.

 

[Toby.]

After fair (properly spaced to hit ROB on the noggin) , ivy has the option to go into nair, DI back for a tilt, or jump again. Even without bair, a great move, it seems pretty safe for ivysaur.

Btw, seems like ROBS ftilt has equal or greater range than ivysaur's. I did a few quick tests, which could have been wrong, but that certainly seemed to be the case. The difference is very small. Note however that at maximum ftilt range ivysaur does 2%. At that same range ROB does 6%, with less end lag.

Interesting matchup. I agree with ItBurns regarding razor leaf.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If ROB really wants to be agressive in this matchup, he does have better combos, a glide toss, less laggy projectiles, and a better grab game.

I'll point out this matchup has to be worse than ROB vs Link anyhow (which the BR says is supposed to be really bad for Link, probably at least 7/3), since Ivysaur's recovery is worse, and she doesn't have nearly as many options to harass ROB.

 

[Onxy]

You keep saying that " Ivy can't do this, and can't do that". You really need to say things like that a little more sparingly. It's like how the Ike's were saying how Ivy or Charizard can't grab after Ike spaces his Fair to an auto canceled jab, and look what happend...

It's hard to argue about matchups, because someone usually retorts with things like that. There is no solid proof of any of it right now. If ROB is trying to sheild the Fair, try Bair. It's far safer than Fair overall, but Fair has far more vertical range.

Edit: Link and Ivy are COMPLETELY different characters. Ivy has a neutral to Snake, but Link doesn't. Why is that?

 

[Tien2500]

If ROB really wants to be agressive in this matchup, he does have better combos, a glide toss, less laggy projectiles, and a better grab game.

I'll point out this matchup has to be worse than ROB vs Link anyhow (which the BR says is supposed to be really bad for Link, probably at least 7/3), since Ivysaur's recovery is worse, and she doesn't have nearly as many options to harass ROB.

Ummmm... no? Link is Link and Ivy is Ivy. They're not that similar. Ivy has better aerials for one thing quicker ground attacks and... is completely different... there is no basis for comparison to Link. Whatsoever. And I don't think ROB has combos. This is Brawl. And Ivy is very tough to grab and has a great defensive game. I don't think ROB would do well in approaching her.

 

[Onxy]

IDK what ROB can really do out of grab besides things that are air-dodgeable, but Ivy's grab is far superior to ROB's. Way longer range, longer pivot grab, longer dash grab, but slightly slower. All that makes up for it, and it's the quickest tether-grab in the game.

 

[Itburns]

Id say im very unbiased.. i main ivysaur so i am very very aware of her strengths but most importantly i am very aware of her limitations.

in this match up ivysaur at best will be neutral and i base that on the different playing styles of rob... there is the arieal rob, the glidetoss rob(hardest match up by far) and the camper rob

The arieal rob can be spaced out well especially with a razorleaf and back air but once rob starts ken comboing you best hope that you are not near an edge with ivy.

The glidetoss rob is the hardest to play against... whether hes glidetossing away or glidetossing to a throw you have to stay defensive and evasively... best thing you can hope for is you picking up the gyro and throwing it off the stage. not to mention he is proteted from razorleaf whenever he has a spinning gyro

The camper rob is annoying.. his rolls are just as good as Ivys and he can keep you away with projectiles. Best thing to do is razor leaf for the interruption then run and throw or close the gap somehow.

on a side note an auto cancelled fair will automatically go into a dtilt with little lag so if spaced right a dtilt can interrupt a grounded rob

 

[Onxy]

It could be a neutral, but a 1:9? It was a joke right? Yeah it was! Hahahahaha! I get it now! Since I'm easily annoyed by that kind of stuff, so you decided to just bug me about it, right? Hahahahaha, good one!

 

[Itburns]

1:9 is a a definite exaggeration. 45:55 in robs favour seems to be leaning closer to a correct analysis.

oh and another thing: robs dtilt... ***** anyone.

 

[Onxy]

I mean it could be a 50/50. Just needs more to look into. 45 - 55 is more likely, but Squirtle is the best in this matchup. What about Charizard?

 

[Tien2500]

It may be 40:60 for Ivy against ROB.

I think charizard does well here. Rock Smash and Fthrower work great as approaches and his run speed makes it hard to camp. I'm fairly certain thrower stops gyros. And as always he has his grab game.