Pokedex Entry 12: R.O.B.

[Toby.]

1:9 is a a definite exaggeration. 45:55 in robs favour seems to be leaning closer to a correct analysis.

oh and another thing: robs dtilt... ***** anyone.

It feels like 60:40 in ROBs favour to me. It's an old and tired point, but him being an excellent gimper + ivysaur having a bad recovery is still a very big consideration. His excellent dtilt, ftilt and dsmash are a major hassle and his multi purpose laser can disrupt our bair/fair as well as make any powerful blows even more dangerous.

Being weak to fire IS a problem, and poor DI makes it it a nightmare if rob gets ivy into the air.

It's manageable, but 45:55 doesn't seem to do it justice.

 

[Onxy]

It feels like 60:40 in ROBs favour to me. It's an old and tired point, but him being an excellent gimper + ivysaur having a bad recovery is still a very big consideration. His excellent dtilt, ftilt and dsmash are a major hassle and his multi purpose laser can disrupt our bair/fair as well as make any powerful blows even more dangerous.

Being weak to fire IS a problem, and poor DI makes it it a nightmare if rob gets ivy into the air.

It's manageable, but 45:55 doesn't seem to do it justice.

Who has the advantage? You're giving mixed messages.

The thing is that Charizard is out ranged on the ground, and ROB just has quicker attacks on the ground. Charizard has about the same range in the air, though. Charizard's grab is a million times better than ROB's. Charizard has no problem killing, where as ROB has more trouble than Charizard. ROB also has a big hit box, making him an easy grab target. Charizard has a good recovery, and more options than Ivy when getting Fair'ed. Being in the air is more troublesome for Charizard than Ivy, though. Rob has good tilts, has 2 good smashes, and 1 great smash, but I find Charizard to have the better aerials as far as this matchup is concerned. Projectiles can bother Charizard more than Ivy, but it's not the end of the world like how everyone makes it out to be. Flamethrower is very bothersome to ROB. It could be in the neutral zone for Charizard.

 

[Itburns]

60:40 is defintely a good overview off hand but why i think its 55:45 in Robs favor is because rob plays a very learnable pattern even if you play him with different playing styles, he still sticks to certain moves.
instant tether > robs recovery.
you wont believe how many nair spikes i hit throwing rob off the edge and IT'ing.

the gyro or dtilt is probably the hardest move to battle with against an ivysaur.

In regards to charizard.. rocksmash and shield grab. Not necessarily the only 2 moves to use but those are the 2 moves that stand out to me that will counter a rob.

 

[Onxy]

6/4 for who? What's going on!

 

[Itburns]

60:40 in robs favor is what he meant

My suggestion was 55:45 in robs favour

 

[Onxy]

Saying it's 45/55 because of his learnable playstyle is not a good argument. If you meant 45/55 in Ivy's favor, then even I have to say that it is too much for Ivy, and is more of a 50/50. Though the instant tether probably has much potential here, and could make it from a 45/55 to a 50/50 due to edgeguarding. I forgot to thank you for finding such a great use for the tether, but please name it something else xD

 

[Itburns]

lol no problem... I hope it helps you as much as it helps me.
i guess we should have a vote for the name of the technique..

45:55 in robs favor because on Instant tether instead of learnable playing styles

 

[Toby.]

I don't think that ivysaur is any less predictable in that regard. I can see where you are coming from, and all your points are good ones. I just don't see it as being as simple as 'spot the playstyle'. It's also not too hard for rob to work around the tether with an u-air or simply by recovering over it.

Hm. 'tis hard to pinpoint really

I really feel that the basic elements of the matchup such as his heavy weight, fire based moves and amazing offstage game really make this hard for ivysaur.

edit: slow post. the bit on playstyles doesn't seem relevent anymore.

 

[Onxy]

Nah, I thought it was 45:55 with out that. I actually never considered that in the discussion actually. IDK if it could raise it to a 50-50. IDK if ROB can camp Ivysaur that badly because of his cooldowns. Samus camps the hell out of Ivysaur, but still around a neutral because of her other mediocre moves. If ROB did the same, I would have to say that Ivy is at a 4:6.

Edit: I was talking about "IT" if you didn't know.
Edit 2: Ivy's Dair is far larger than ROB's Uair, if you care to know.

 

[Itburns]

whenever you tether you get lot of frames to edgehog, when the vine itself is connected to the edge it cannot be grabbed.. when you tether to the edge you get the invincebility frames from grabbing the edge. there is also the ability to re-tether if the finvincibility frames wear off.

all in all rob has a small window inbetween tethers to uair.. keep mind that in that small window you have the ability to push down/back and cancel to any move.

since robs recovery does not have attack frames every single time he misses with an air attack that depletes his recovery and yes it adds up if you can keep him off the edge.

nair off the edge is a rob killer.. his huge body makes it alot easier to sweetspot the spike.

 

[Onxy]

I don't think you do get frames like that, only when you actually grab the ledge.

 

[Toby.]

He can still recover over all of this. We are assuming that ROB's trajectory is pointing below the stage. Considering the trajectory of ivysaur's moves and rob's ability to quickly fair to restore his ability and begin recovering, I don't think its unreasonable to say that he can go over all this.

I agree about nair, dair, tether invincibility frames and the practice of diminishing his fuel through repeated attacks.

We need to remember that he has a waaaay easier time edguarding us, though. At the end of the day he is at an advantage off stage because he can spend a lot of time floating about there. He can also use dair and bair to halt his momentum and increase his horizontal recovery respectively.

Ivysaur has many options, but most of them are centered around the edge of the stage. Once he goes above it those options dissapear.

edit:onxy- you dont have actual invincibility frames, but shooting up in the air is basically the same thing because you are out of the way. You can also pull yourself to the ledge as soon as the threat appears, so you effectively maximise the time spend invincible. Its good, but not enough.

 

[Onxy]

The thing is that Ivy might do better on stage overall than ROB. It's mostly because of his size, though. Although Ivy in the air is pretty bad, and Ivy going off stage is a really bad thing for Ivy. I would say that's a neutral, but not just yet. People also forget that it isn't that hard for ROB to eat 50% damage from Bullet Seed if done right.

IMO

Squirtle 6:4

Ivysaur 5:5

Charizard 45:55.

will be slightly in favor of us. Of course I'm probably going to say that because PT is my main, and why ROBs will say that ROB has the advantage. Let's be honest, no one wants to be at a disadvantage vs PT.

 

[Itburns]

edit:onxy- you dont have actual invincibility frames, but shooting up in the air is basically the same thing because you are out of the way. You can also pull yourself to the ledge as soon as the threat appears, so you effectively maximise the time spend invincible. Its good, but not enough.

yup thats what i was reffering too.

IMO

even though it does not make Ivy better offstage the gimpability and the actual application do have an effect on the factor. because without it you would have alot more of a disadvatage offstage.
[side note i made a thread about renaming it]

and that to me gives a 5% difference in a 60:40 matchup

so like I said IMO:
55:45 in ROBs favor

 

[Onxy]

Lets come with a pro and con list or something, lol.

 

[Toby.]

Charizard92 is gonna go crazy when he reads that onxy. He loves his pro and con lists....

Well I respect your opinion Itburns.

Im not fully convinced, but I wouldn't have a heart attack if 45:55 was the final decision either. I suppose we just have to wait and see what the rest of the board + ROB mainers have to say.

 

[Onxy]

Hopefully not something insane like a 9:1......was that guy being real?

 

[Toby.]

Hopefully not something insane like a 9:1......was that guy being real?

I think so. Weird. So many people underestimate ivysaur.

Oh and btw thanks for the contributions onxy. I forgot to mention you in the last post. I'm not sure that we've come to the right conclusions, but it was all good discussion.

 

[Itburns]

Charizard92 is gonna go crazy when he reads that onxy. He loves his pro and con lists....

Well I respect your opinion Itburns.

Im not fully convinced, but I wouldn't have a heart attack if 45:55 was the final decision either. I suppose we just have to wait and see what the rest of the board + ROB mainers have to say.

I definetly respect your oppinion aswell tcranter. I guess the only thing left is hearing ROB players input.

good debates though

 

[infernovia]

The thing is that Ivy might do better on stage overall than ROB. It's mostly because of his size, though. Although Ivy in the air is pretty bad, and Ivy going off stage is a really bad thing for Ivy. I would say that's a neutral, but not just yet. People also forget that it isn't that hard for ROB to eat 50% damage from Bullet Seed if done right.

IMO

Squirtle 6:4

Ivysaur 5:5

Charizard 45:55.

will be slightly in favor of us. Of course I'm probably going to say that because PT is my main, and why ROBs will say that ROB has the advantage. Let's be honest, no one wants to be at a disadvantage vs PT.

I really doubt a character that has fire moves and can WoP you off the stage (yeah... this is brawl... w/e) is going to be neutral against someone who has terrible recovery and is weak to fire moves. Also, glidetossing really opens up a lot of doors for Rob.

Also, how are you guys edgeguarding rob? How is edge hog even a viable tactic? Rob can either just choose to recover a bit higher than he needs to instead of charging his gyro and shooting lases like he usually does if instant tether becomes too much of a problem.

 

[Steeler]

i don't think this is close to neutral for ivysaur. rob owns you off stage when you try to recover, and rob honestly has to make a mistake for you to return. bair can work to bug rob as he comes back, but ivy will have to tether back on stage at some point. by then rob could have floated above the stage, or under it. plus bair hardly does knockback. rob can even just take the hits/air dodge spam and then recover when ivy has to take a break.

rob also outcamps ivysaur. laser and razor leaf do not clash with each other, yet laser is both faster and harder to predict and shield. gyro is also a tad bit annoying, but it's another option for rob, and options are always good.

up close i think rob/ivy is a little bit closer to even, ivy has some set ups into bullet seed, but rob's ground game is better than ivy's. ftilt outranges ivy's ftilt. i do think ivy's dtilt has more range than rob's though. bair outranges all of rob's moves, but he can laser you when you try to bair or something, if it's spaced.

4:6 rob sounds way better to me than neutral, and 35:65 or 3:7 are more likely to me.

...1:9 though? lol.

 

[Onxy]

His Ftilt does not out range yours...

Laser when I come to Bair? Ummm, sure?

 

[infernovia]

No, what Rob does is he stays way off the edge and charges up his laser (if he is close to a full charge) and gyro. By charging the laser I mean just hanging around for 2-3 sec because of its autocharge. Then he up bs while targetting the player (you would be near on/close to the ledge) which allows him to smack you into the stage/away from it. Worst case scenario, gyro stage spikes. At the very least, it forces you to tether back up and waste another tether. Or you go back on the stage. If you manage to invulnerable frame it, then rob shoots his laser. If you manage to dodge that, he can still keep rising vertically or go under the stage to the other side.

 

[Koga]

or you could just go Charizard and see how R.O.B handles a boulder to the face!

 

[PkTrainerCris]

ROB has a 60:40 advantage against ivy IMO, it(yeah its a robot, so its a "it") can really hurt ivy offstage, and is one of the very few characters who outrange ivy, the camp war is not that bad for ivy, but she still loses, she has her stuff against ROB, but not enough to make it neutral.
I think chairzard is closer to neutral than ivy

 

[Tien2500]

Ivy's not neutral here really. First off we've completely ignored the element of KOing. I'm not sure how well Ivy can KO Rob but ROB should have an easy time. Bair (which can also be used creatively to approach), Nair and Usmash do the job nicely. Properly spaced/timed Nairs are going to be hard to counter and its not that unlikely for him to hit you with this. Usmash is harder but if it hits it will hurt. Fsmash works too. Also if he catches you in a grab near the edge you're going off the stage and you are going to have trouble getting back. Ivy has limited options here and ROB does not.

Ivy will have trouble KOing here. Uair and Usmash are always hard to hit so Fsmash is your main option unless ROB gets careless and lets you Vine whip him maybe. As for gimping I don't really think that would work. ROB has a very versatile recovery. He shouldn't really ever be recovering close enough to the edge that you can really do much with IT. As infernovia described ROB has a ton of different recovery options. His options outweigh Ivy's in this regard.

Oh and gimping ROB by draining his fuel? Not likely. ROB's UpB has about five seconds of fuel I believe. It might not sound like much but it is. If you cause him to run out of fuel ROB messed up somewhere along the line.

UP close they're probably about even. ROB is quicker overall but Ivy has Bullet Seed as an equalizer. Overall though 65:35 may be reasonably. Maybe even 70:30.

Really I think Ivy is largely irrelevant to this matchup. Squirtle and Charizard clearly do much better here. If you're playing as Ivy I'd say your objective should be getting ROB far enough away to switch to Zard.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ivy can also kill ROB by vinewhiping his recovery like she does with snake, and which is pretty realiable, but it doesnt change a lot the matchup, so i can see it even as a 65:35 maybe
My main goal with ivy versus ROB is landing one bulletseed at least, so charizard wont have any problem killing, and remember, an aerial bulletseed has more range

 

[infernovia]

Ivy can also kill ROB by vinewhiping his recovery like she does with snake, and which is pretty realiable, but it doesnt change a lot the matchup, so i can see it even as a 65:35 maybe
My main goal with ivy versus ROB is landing one bulletseed at least, so charizard wont have any problem killing, and remember, an aerial bulletseed has more range

Snake's recovery isn't even close to robs. Its like comparing wario's to mario's. Snake has to rely on his cypher only once while rob has up b, air dodge, up b. He can do aerials while up bing. He can throw gyros, shoot lasers, I mean there is just so many options that rob has.

However, rob does have to be afraid when he is above ivysaur because of his big size. I think fair is the only aerial rob has unless he likes eating a vinewhip. But I am pretty sure rob's ground game > ivy's.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur 35:65 imho.

agree? disagree?

 

[Onxy]

I'm going to agree with itburns with a 45:55. All of what is explained for ROB sounds great on paper, but not as much in actual play. Ivy's Dtilt has same startup time as his. Ivy's Ftilt is quicker, and longer. Ivy's aerials are quicker for the most part. Ivy's Dair has more range ROB's Usmash if anyone cares to know. The main reason I'm saying that it's a 45:55 is because of Ivy's better range in melee combat. ROB's size gives Ivy a much easier time killing ROB (you can even do things like a SH Uair) and landing Bullet Seed. Like I said, 45:55 in ROB's favor.

P.S. Yes Ivy's Razor Leaf will cut through a charged Gyro. The Gyro has to come out first.

 

[Steeler]

laser>leaf though. gyro is just supplemental to limit your positioning, most of the time. or to get you into traps and set ups, since most people will just shield it and get rid of it.

rob's ftilt outranges everything but bair though, because it's actually disjointed.

 

[Onxy]

No it doesn't. Ftilt has slightly more range than ROBs. It can be disjointed all it wants. It's still shorter.

 

[Steeler]

he can hit you through your own ftilt since ivy's isn't disjointed, or is only disjointed at the very tips of range.

 

[Onxy]

Yeah, maybe if I miss it he will.

 

[Steeler]

or if he di's out of it, or if you only hit with the tips since that's the part that would outrange rob's ftilt anyway.

 

[Onxy]

There is a slight hit stun even if he DI's out of it. Ftilt has a short ending lag also. The point is that Ftilt has more range than his, but only if you tip it.

 

[Steeler]

well alright. so ftilt vs ftilt is a pretty close 'battle'...and ivysaur vs rob is fairly neutral up close. the match up at this point should be 4:6 disadvantage at best then, because off stage is just bad for ivy, both defending and recovering. and rob still kills ivy much easier than ivy kills rob.

 

[Onxy]

The other reason I see it as a 45 is because ROB is huge. He is a huge target for things like Bullet Seed or Nair combos. ROB can kill Ivy easily if she is thrown off stage, but at least Ivy can do 50% to ROB, and it's not as hard because of his size.

 

[Bleeper Hit]

Pro's & Con's list IMO.

Squirtle.
Pros: Mobility makes ROB's projectile game more inefficient than normal
Big size and heavy weight make ROB combo fodder for squirtle.
Fire resistance makes Squirtle last longer than in most matches
Air and grab game surpasses Rob's

Cons:
Rob's quick and well ranged moves force squirtle to play an air heavy game
Rob's borderline broken recovery and heavy weight makes edgeguarding innefective, making Rob difficult to kill.

Ivysaur:
Pros: Up close has tools that can give Rob trouble (BS, grab, f-tilt, b-air)
Feel free to add on onxy

Cons: Rob outcamps Ivy, forcing her to approach
Fire weakness gives Ivy problems
Get's hit especially hard offstage

Zard
Pros: Has a much easier time killing Rob than vice-versa
Glide, when applicable, makes Zard's recovery somewhat unpredictible, giving him some chance against
Robs offstage game.
has special moves and range to do well close up against Rob.

Cons:
Has trouble in the air w/ Rob
Rob's camping game gives trouble
A mistake can make you combo fodder.

Tl;dr version:
Squirtle: Advantage, Ivysaur: Disadvantage. Charizard: Neutral to slight advantage.

 

[infernovia]

There is a slight hit stun even if he DI's out of it. Ftilt has a short ending lag also. The point is that Ftilt has more range than his, but only if you tip it.

Didn't you say somewhere else before that ftilt is pretty dangerous to use in these situation because the other person can just DI out the back and take advantage of it?