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Pokedex Entry 11: Ike

Miles.

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Well after playing Ikes for 4 hours here are my short notes on the match up.

If I am not so tired I will write much more later.

Ikes is good online.

Flamethrower is your best tool against Ike.

He is really vulnerable off stage. Go for the gimp always.

With Squirt just because he doesnt have to approach doesnt mean you have to.

I found hydroplaning Super effective in this match up ( Most likely just the lag + the surprise of my change to instant speed demon)

Ikes Jabs ****, it ***** Ivy the most the third hit say " you are going really far off the level Ivysaur"

Overall I only really had trouble with SPAMMED SMASHES. Seems to get the job done online, but that wont work offline.

I would say:

Squirt < Ike (but still able to gimp and evade well)
Ivy > or = to Ike
Zard > Ike Flamethrower Spacing makes or breaks you. Rocksmash is also your friend and Ikes enemy here.
 

Onxy

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You're a lot better with your Zard than you are with your Ivy - so naturally, you would have more problems.

In reality, it harms Zard the most. Why? Becuase Ike's hax jab actually out ranges some of Charizard's attacks - the attacks being his own jab, and his grab- because of Charizard's hurtbox. Ivy's grab has more range than Ike's jab, and Ivy is just a better spacer than Zard. Ivy shouldn't be hit by it that much - unless this is online.

I never knew Ivy had a larger grab than Charizard, lol.
 

Ryusuta

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Since when is Charizard all about spacing? I haven't seen a single Charizard EVER (including your own) that didn't get up close and personal in every fight.
 

Steeler

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rock smash is basically instant spacing.

watch ANY charizard against a good meta knight and you'll see what i mean.

zard's grab range also does a nice job of spacing.
 

Ryusuta

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That's really more like zoning, but I suppose that's a matter of semantics. I get what you're saying, now.
 

Steeler

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i think of zoning as spacing that doesn't actually hit the opponent haha.
 

Steeler

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i think ivysaur clearly has an advantage, he forces ike to approach with leaf and can use leaf to make its own approach a lot easier.

charizard and squirtle are both debatable. i think it'll take us about a week to get this sorted out.
 

Miles.

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Ike is really easy to gimp.

I just played off line Ikes, and yeah, we trully own him off level.

Easy gimps.

His only prayer is to take us with him with aether, but we can airdodge out of it.
 

PkTrainerCris

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ivys grab is actually longer than zards, that surprised me too, but its on a thread about every characters grab game on the tactical discussion (btw, this should help ivy against DDD)..oh.. and my charizard is about spacing... i love spamming ftilt, dtilt and grabs for spacing
 

Steeler

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but ivy's grab doesn't extend to the tip of his vines though...it's shorter than that.
 

Onxy

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Doesn't matter, it's still larger.

The only reason Charizard has a slight advantage is because of his Flame Thrower, grabbing, and can stop his Ike's aerial approaches with his Usmash because of it's swiftness and range.

Flame Thrower really can make Ike approach you first, because he doesn't want to be in the back with you going to flame him.

Your grabbing is overall better than what Ike can do with his jabbing.

Usmash is already explained.

Other than that, they are equal in most other areas as far as this matchup is concerned.
 

YagamiLight

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The only reason Charizard has a slight advantage is because of his Flame Thrower, grabbing, and can stop his Ike's aerial approaches with his Usmash because of it's swiftness and range.

You're going to be hard pressend to stop either Fair or Nair with the Up Smash, I can assure that.

Flame Thrower really can make Ike approach you first, because he doesn't want to be in the back with you going to flame him.
Ike is going to be approaching anyways, so don't worry about that. What I like doing to Bowser's or Charizard's Flame thrower is to sit back and charge Quick Draw. It works, trust me.

Your grabbing is overall better than what Ike can do with his jabbing.
Ike's jab does 16% if the combo is fully completed and it sets you into the air. Charizard's grabs only do 10% or so, don't they?

Other than that, they are equal in most other areas as far as this matchup is concerned.
From what I saw of Steeler's Charizard, it's a mostly even match, yes.
After playing Steeler, I changed some parts of my analysis, essentially the totals come out to:

Squirtle 3.5-6.5 Ike's Favor
Ivysaur 4.5-5.5 Minor disadvantage for Ivysaur (For quite a few reasons)
Charizard 5-5 Equal match.

Overall I'd say PT has a tiny disadvantage, but nothing drastic.
 

Onxy

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You're going to be hard pressend to stop either Fair or Nair with the Up Smash, I can assure that.
Huh?

Ike is going to be approaching anyways, so don't worry about that. What I like doing to Bowser's or Charizard's Flame thrower is to sit back and charge Quick Draw. It works, trust me.

Charizard want's you to approach, that's the idea.

Ike's jab does 16% if the combo is fully completed and it sets you into the air. Charizard's grabs only do 10% or so, don't they?

Okay, it does 10%, or you can just jab release after. It's still not the point. Charizard's grab is overall more useful than what Ike can do with his jab. I don't see Ike jabbing Charizard after a well spaced tilt.

From what I saw of Steeler's Charizard, it's a mostly even match, yes.



Okay.


What does Ike over Ivy? a little range, weight, and overall power only. Where as Ivy is just about stronger in every other area.
 

YagamiLight

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Huh?
Basically, Up Smash won't be stopping Ike from approaching with his long ranged Fair.

Charizard want's you to approach, that's the idea.
Alright, I don't see how that's any sort of disadvantage. Not that Charizard's SH Flamethrower isn't an aprroach anyways.

Okay, it does 10%, or you can just jab release after. It's still not the point. Charizard's grab is overall more useful than what Ike can do with his jab. I don't see Ike jabbing Charizard after a well spaced tilt.

I don't see Charizard grabbing Ike after a well spaced Forward Aerial either.


What does Ike over Ivy? a little range, weight, and overall power only. Where as Ivy is just about stronger in every other area.


As for Ivysaur, Ike has:
-Power
-Range
-Survivability
-A better recovery

All he lacks is the consistent speed that Ivysaur has, and that can be patched by jabs, grabs and aerials.
 

Onxy

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As for Ivysaur, Ike has:
-Power
-Range
-Survivability
-A better recovery

All he lacks is the consistent speed that Ivysaur has, and that can be patched by jabs, grabs and aerials.

Basically what I said, except I didn't add recovery because It's common knowledge that Ivy has a bad recovery.

Ike lacks a projectile.
Ike has no grab game.
Ike's jab has a shorter range than Ivy's grab since you mentioned his jab.
Ike has a bad approach..
Ike's aerial game is overall inferior to Ivy's to do his speed.
Ike's ground game is overall inferior to Ivy's do to his speed.
Ike's overall defensive game is inferior to Ivy's do to his speed.
Also Ivy has better punishers because they are easier to land.
Speed counts for A LOT in this game, which is why MK is top.
 

YagamiLight

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Basically what I said, except I didn't add recovery because It's common knowledge that Ivy has a bad recovery.

Ike lacks a projectile.Not that he needs one, in any case Ivy's projectile is not really useful in this match.
Ike has no grab game. Sure he does, press Z! Jokes aside, Ike's grabs should just be used to get them away from you and deal 6% or so.
Ike's jab has a shorter range than Ivy's grab since you mentioned his jab. Ike's jab is faster, however.
Ike has a bad approach.. Alright, it's a pretty mediocre approach, yes.
Ike's aerial game is overall inferior to Ivy's to do his speed.
Ike's ground game is overall inferior to Ivy's do to his speed.
Ike's overall defensive game is inferior to Ivy's do to his speed.
If that were the case, Ike would be worse thane very character except for Ganondorf. "Due to his speed" (Which isn't even true) is n't much of a reason.
Also Ivy has better punishers because they are easier to land. Up Smash is only like one of the best punishers in the game, and Ike as a whole is regarded as one of the best punisher in the game.
Speed counts for A LOT in this game, which is why MK is top. Speed counts for a lot in most games, but point taken.
I think there's some Ike misrepresentation going on.
 

Onxy

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Okay, want to play it that way? Ike's power, reach, as survivabillity means nothing in this match up, if Razor Leaf means nothing.

Ike's grab doesn't help too much.

It's faster, but not by a huge margin like comparing Ivy's tilts to Ikes. If I'm going to do a run grab, I'm going to stay out of reach of his punch, and go for a grab, which is why grabbing is a different case

It's mediocre, which is great for Ivy.

Ivysaur has comparable reach, and has far greater speed than Ike. Which is why that this is a different case.
Speed means a lot, but Ike has range but does Ivy, and Ivy has speed! Ganon hasn't much reach, which is why he is regarded as bad.

Usmash as a punisher? Isn't it kinda slow for that? I've played many Ike's, and it's useful for air dodging into it wrong. Punishing what other than that?

I'm going in order, and don't quote me next time. I want to copy and paste what you say only - it makes it tedious.
 

Steeler

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actually it was really hard for ivy to use razor leaf for me, because all of ike's attacks go through it. it's helpful when ike is at a distance or charging a quick draw, yes...but ike is going to want to get into ivy's face anyway. razor leaf doesn't really do much, but just knowing that ivy has it will force ike to approach anyway.

i don't think you should base anything off of my ivysaur, it's inferior to my other two...

yeah lol i air dodged wrong into ike's usmash SO many times. and light liked to stand at a distance when ivy was on the edge so if i rolled, he'd hit me. and i'm stupid and did that a lot. ledge drop -> razor leaf is pretty nice, and if ike wants to get closer to dtilt or something, just ledge hop.

edit ivysaur is just as good as or better than ike as a punisher for bullet seed. offline, ivysaur will be able to bullet seed ike right after he misses anything but jabs and spaced fair/bair. jab canceling, i think, gives enough of an opportunity for a bullet seed as well. just don't get predictable with the bullet seed, mix it up with ftilts and the like. light started to learn my seed pattern and was able to just shield through it.
 

PkTrainerCris

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first of all, anyone who says ivys punishment relies on her usmash hasnt ever taken like 30 % from bulletseed, razor leaf does means something in this matchup, its anoying has hell to ike
charizards usmash stops ikes aerial approaches because its faster, so char can hit ike before ike attacks ( bair is an esception, but this one can be shieldgrabbed and onxy didnt mention it on his post)
overall i think its
60/40 squirtle disadv.
40/60 or 35/65 ivys adv
55/45 or 60/40 charizards advantage
 

Onxy

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That's my point. If Ike has to do ANYTHING to go through Razor Leaf, or even go out of his way ONCE, it has a meaning.
 

Kinzer

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Well, after 4 hours of playing IRL last night, if matchups where up to us (which of course they aren't we're only two people.), it would look like this:

Ike vs. Squirtle - Yeah, I could safely say this is a 35 - 65 advantage Ike at worse case scenario, and best case would still be like 45 - 55 advantage Ike. Speed and mobility did not help IRL do anything majorly with me when I used my fast attacks, also the poor thing is too easy to kill. The one thing I found troublesome wast he HUGE knockback d-throw had on me, it even killed me a few times when I was high in the numbers

Ike vs Ivysaur - Kind of questionable, but I think it could be something like 40 - 60 advantage Ike, or it would even make Ivysaur in the favorable somewhere at 55 - 45 position depending on some factors, so I am going to say it can be sligtly neutral? Razor leaf was way too easy to powershield. Bullet Seed can be a nuisance but will only do about 20-30% damage if you DI out of it, and if it misses dear God how you are going to pay for it. Bair was alright for stopping any ground approaches but did that stop me from using my aerial game to counter? The answer is not really, not unless you fullhop it and if necessary retreated/assaulted with the bair. Ivysaur is too easy to ledgecamp gaurd it's not even funny. If Ivysaur tried to do any kind of gimp it would not have any result/would even end up in getting you killed, and that's with Ike in the unfavorable position, now put Ivysaur in the same place and just abuse the ledge invincibility frames. Razor Leaf would go right through Ike, and if performed correctly you can double jump to grab the ledge again and refresh the invincibility frames to make sure Ivysaur won't take you down with it when it tries to Vine Whip Tether recover.

Edit: I fought Onxy, and what he did different compared to IRL's Ivysaur was instead of chasing me offstage which I don't recommand doing unless you're going to Razor Leaf Ike to try and steal his second jump, he would sit at one spot at the edge and just wait for me to get up, and it worked numbers because he would use Vine whip if I tried to jump recover or the same results if I tried to roll, Vine whip has some good hitboxes I must admit. He could've also simpleydo a ftilt/Fsmash/grab if I just crawled back onto the stage, with this it puts Ike in a very unfavorable place if he is hanging on the ledge. Other than that I did the same stuff that I would've done if it were IRL's Ivysaur, and although Onxy probably doesn't like the wifi, I'm sure I wouldn't have won some of those matches had it been in person (in fact he even won one of them). So with that done I would give Ivysaur / Ike a Neutral matchup at worst, and possibly a 60 / 40 advantage Ivysaur at best case scenario.

Finally...

Ike vs. Charizard - Charizard has from a 60 - 40 advantage to a smaller advantage down to 55 - 45, maybe it could be neutral, but for me I found Charizard to be the most difficult of the three. Flamethrower is a great tool to use, it would force me to try for an aerial approach if I didn't get caught in the flames, and if I did would either force me to DI back, or go for an Aether escape as a gamble which would either end up with giving me some breathing space, or would end up being punished with a strong attack or a throw. Not something to use for a very long time thoguh or Ike will pick up on it and just charge a Quickdraw which can be held forever until eventually Famethrower dies down. Rock smash is another good thing to use, not only to rack up damage, but to possibly score a kill, the sweetspotted Rock Smash has some VERY nice damage and knockback, and even when it wasn't swettspotted would really limit from frontal assault due to the amazing range it has. Charizards throws are great, compared to Ike it's used for the same reasons: to get your opponent off the stage. Even Charizard's dthrow can be used to score some stocks, keep it refreshed as much as possible by pummeling Ike when you have him in grab range and/or using another kind of throw when you know Ike won't die from Dthrow alone. Offstage is the last place Ike wants to be when recovering, one hit is all that's stopping us from getting back onto the stage and death. Charizard's recovery is very great for gimping Ike and coming back to the stage. If Ike is using Fairs/Bairs to push you back further offstage just pick up on it and simply airdodge, a smart Ike won't be using Nair as an offstage gaurd because it has too much lag in the air, but don't get confused, he could just as well stay near the stage and use this to push you up and away for some extra damage. Whatever you don't let Ike dair spike you or you are dead no matter what. Finally if you're feeling confident you can fake-out Ike and do a glide recovery to the other side of the stage if they aren't expecting this, however if they catch on to this you're betetr off just getting back on if possible...Finally use your smashes accordingly, you will probably have to be like Ike and only use them when you know they will hit, because that's good when it connects but if you miss you might regret it.

Edit: Maybe for Charizard if you play your cards right you can get 65 - 35 advantage Charizard.

When put together, I think Ike is at a slight advantage, it's up to you to come up with a number for that, but Ivysaur and Charizard can beu used to keep the matchup even if not putting you in a good place, as for Squirtle...really all hope is lost for that tiny thing... For counterpicks I would recommand anything that is Jungle Japes (Ike has a bad recoery, the rushing tide doesn't make this any better), Norfair (this gives you more room to work with), Luigi's Mansion (when the place isn't destroyed, this limits Ike's options and only benefits you're ranged game), Frigate Orpheon (The first stage doesn't have a ledge on the left side, so Ike WILL have to land on it with Aether which leaves a lot of room for punishment, but this also doesn't help you recover either, CP this at your own risk), and Castle Siege (The first stage is small, so that puts Ivysaur and Charizard in a good place, the second stage has a lot of room to give Squirlte a fighting chance, and the third stage is great for messing up Ike's placing due to the careening stage.)

Again, if any other PT's want to Wifi me feel free to leave a PM or a profile message, maybe with experience on a different PT I may change this post accordingly, or just further prove what I've said here true.
 

YagamiLight

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Okay, want to play it that way? Ike's power, reach, as survivabillity means nothing in this match up, if Razor Leaf means nothing.

Ike's grab doesn't help too much.

It's faster, but not by a huge margin like comparing Ivy's tilts to Ikes. If I'm going to do a run grab, I'm going to stay out of reach of his punch, and go for a grab, which is why grabbing is a different case

It's mediocre, which is great for Ivy.

Ivysaur has comparable reach, and has far greater speed than Ike. Which is why that this is a different case.
Speed means a lot, but Ike has range but does Ivy, and Ivy has speed! Ganon hasn't much reach, which is why he is regarded as bad.

Usmash as a punisher? Isn't it kinda slow for that? I've played many Ike's, and it's useful for air dodging into it wrong. Punishing what other than that?

I'm going in order, and don't quote me next time. I want to copy and paste what you say only - it makes it tedious.
I think power, range and weight are all much more important than a dinky little projectile.

Yeah, Ike's grab is passable, but not good.

Ivysaur only has comparable reach on the back aerial, the forward smash, the up tilt and the forward aerial. Everything else is rather short ranged.

I used the up Smash to punish rolls off the edge and air dodges mainly. It's as good a punisher as you can ask for that purpose.

That's my point. If Ike has to do ANYTHING to go through Razor Leaf, or even go out of his way ONCE, it has a meaning.
I have to be careful around Game and Watch's Judgment Hammer too, but nobody is ever factoring that into a match.

In short, I can pretty safely say that it's not in Ivysaur's favor, but it's really not a bad match for her.


Edit: Whoah Kinzer, nice write-up.
 

Onxy

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I think power, range and weight are all much more important than a dinky little projectile.
You're missing the point. It's a projectile you have to watch out for.

Yeah, Ike's grab is passable, but not good.
Not good is an understatement

Ivysaur only has comparable reach on the back aerial, the forward smash, the up tilt and the forward aerial. Everything else is rather short ranged.

You're right! You know so much about Ivy! Ftilt, Dtilt, Vinewhip, grab, and her jab, are all so short.. Poor, poor Ivy.

I used the up Smash to punish rolls off the edge and air dodges mainly. It's as good a punisher as you can ask for that purpose.

It can punish, but one of the best?

@kinzer: You most likely found IRL's Charizard to be the hardest because that's his best. His Ivy is his worst - judging by his videos.
 

YagamiLight

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Yeah, you have to look out for the start-up animation and the sluggish projectile itself, but it's more of a deterrent to charging something a distance away from Ivysaur, something I shouldn't be doing in this match anyways.

We discussed the grab, and I didn't count vine whip for the same reason I don't count Aether as Ike's range, even though they hit at the same place. Ftilt and Dtilt don't strike me as having long range, and the jab isn't good, so I naturally forgot it.

Ike as a whole is one of the best punishers in the game, not just the up smash. Just look at the whole moveset.
 

Onxy

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Aerial Razor Leaf is faaaar better than the crappy ground version

It isn't a matter of opinion. Ftilt DOES have long range, and so does Dtilt. You better count the Vinewhip, because if you fight a good Ivy, you should expect it. Jab outranges many things that Ike has, it's a great spacer. Again this shows that you don't know much about Ivy

Ike probably is, but so is Ivy.
 

Miles.

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Well, after 4 hours of playing IRL last night, if matchups where up to us (which of course they aren't we're only two people.), it would look like this:

Ike vs. Squirtle - Yeah, I could safely say this is a 35 - 65 advantage Ike at worse case scenario, and best case would still be like 45 - 55 advantage Ike. Speed and mobility did not help IRL do anything majorly with me when I used my fast attacks, also the poor thing is too easy to kill. The one thing I found troublesome wast he HUGE knockback d-throw had on me, it even killed me a few times when I was high in the numbers

Ike vs Ivysaur - Kind of questionable, but I think it could be something like 40 - 60 advantage Ike, or it would even make Ivysaur in the favorable somewhere at 55 - 45 position depending on some factors, so I am going to say it can be sligtly neutral? Razor leaf was way too easy to powershield. Bullet Seed can be a nuisance but will only do about 20-30% damage if you DI out of it, and if it misses dear God how you are going to pay for it. Bair was alright for stopping any ground approaches but did that stop me from using my aerial game to counter? The answer is not really, not unless you fullhop it and if necessary retreated/assaulted with the bair. Ivysaur is too easy to ledgecamp gaurd it's not even funny. If Ivysaur tried to do any kind of gimp it would not have any result/would even end up in getting you killed, and that's with Ike in the unfavorable position, now put Ivysaur in the same place and just abuse the ledge invincibility frames. Razor Leaf would go right through Ike, and if performed correctly you can double jump to grab the ledge again and refresh the invincibility frames to make sure Ivysaur won't take you down with it when it tries to Vine Whip Tether recover.

Finally...

Ike vs. Charizard - Charizard has from a 60 - 40 advantage to a smaller advantage down to 55 - 45, maybe it could be neutral, but for me I found Charizard to be the most difficult of the three. Flamethrower is a great tool to use, it would force me to try for an aerial approach if I didn't get caught in the flames, and if I did would either force me to DI back, or go for an Aether escape as a gamble which would either end up with giving me some breathing space, or would end up being punished with a strong attack or a throw. Not something to use for a very long time thoguh or Ike will pick up on it and just charge a Quickdraw which can be held forever until eventually Famethrower dies down. Rock smash is another good thing to use, not only to rack up damage, but to possibly score a kill, the sweetspotted Rock Smash has some VERY nice damage and knockback, and even when it wasn't swettspotted would really limit from frontal assault due to the amazing range it has. Charizards throws are great, compared to Ike it's used for the same reasons: to get your opponent off the stage. Even Charizard's dthrow can be used to score some stocks, keep it refreshed as much as possible by pummeling Ike when you have him in grab range and/or using another kind of throw when you know Ike won't die from Dthrow alone. Offstage is the last place Ike wants to be when recovering, one hit is all that's stopping us from getting back onto the stage and death. Charizard's recovery is very great for gimping Ike and coming back to the stage. If Ike is using Fairs/Bairs to push you back further offstage just pick up on it and simply airdodge, a smart Ike won't be using Nair as an offstage gaurd because it has too much lag in the air, but don't get confused, he could just as well stay near the stage and use this to push you up and away for some extra damage. Whatever you don't let Ike dair spike you or you are dead no matter what. Finally if you're feeling confident you can fake-out Ike and do a glide recovery to the other side of the stage if they aren't expecting this, however if they catch on to this you're betetr off just getting back on if possible...Finally use your smashes accordingly, you will probably have to be like Ike and only use them when you know they will hit, because that's good when it connects but if you miss you might regret it.

When put together, I think Ike is at a slight advantage, it's up to you to come up with a number for that, but Ivysaur and Charizard can beu used to keep the matchup even if not putting you in a good place, as for Squirtle...really all hope is lost for that tiny thing... For counterpicks I would recommand anything that is Jungle Japes (Ike has a bad recoery, the rushing tide doesn't make this any better), Norfair (this gives you more room to work with), Luigi's Mansion (when the place isn't destroyed, this limits Ike's options and only benefits you're ranged game), Frigate Orpheon (The first stage doesn't have a ledge on the left side, so Ike WILL have to land on it with Aether which leaves a lot of room for punishment, but this also doesn't help you recover either, CP this at your own risk), and Castle Siege (The first stage is small, so that puts Ivysaur and Charizard in a good place, the second stage has a lot of room to give Squirlte a fighting chance, and the third stage is great for messing up Ike's placing due to the careening stage.)

Again, if any other PT's want to Wifi me feel free to leave a PM or a profile message, maybe with experience on a different PT I may change this post accordingly, or just further prove what I've said here true.

I think you didnt factor in that it was online.

You landed way to many smashes and I couldnt gimp you with Squirt or Ivy.

There was near to ZERO Hydroplaning from Squirtle so you really didnt get to trully see all he has to offer but still pretty good synopsis.

I forgot to add that in mine that JAPES ***** Ike haha.

I want to mention that Squirtle will definately give you MUCH more trouble offline.

And Squirt is my personal worst pokemon, my Ivy is pretty bad too, I have been focusing a lot on Zard, you probably want to play some of the other PTs.
 

YagamiLight

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Aerial Razor Leaf is faaaar better than the crappy ground version

It isn't a matter of opinion. Ftilt DOES have long range, and so does Dtilt. You better count the Vinewhip, because if you fight a good Ivy, you should expect it. Jab outranges many things that Ike has, it's a great spacer. Again this shows that you don't know much about Ivy

Ike probably is, but so is Ivy.

Yeah, ARL is better, but it's still not what I'd consider good.

Except for Vinewhip, everything you listed falls under medium range, and jab outranges many things, but what else does it do?
 

Onxy

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They out range almost every tilt that every character has or has near equal with other long tilts, and has about equal range to MK's Ftilt. It's not short. Dtilt is pretty long to, but not as long. Jab is for spacing, like I've already said.
 

YagamiLight

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They out range almost every tilt that every character has or has near equal with other long tilts, and has about equal range to MK's Ftilt. It's not short. Dtilt is pretty long to, but not as long. Jab is for spacing, like I've already said.
I'm pretty sure that quite a few respective tilts are better, but the range is above average, so fair enough.
 

Onxy

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Well.. I still stand by what I said for 6:4 Ivy, and 5.5 to 6/4 Charizard. I'm sure you're going to stick by your opinion too. I'm going to just let the others discuss it - if they care enough too.
 

YagamiLight

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Well.. I still stand by what I said for 6:4 Ivy, and 5.5 to 6/4 Charizard. I'm sure you're going to stick by your opinion too. I'm going to just let the others discuss it - if they care enough too.
I'm not particularly planning to change my thoughts, but at least we agreed on Squirtle.
 

Kinzer

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Yeah don't worry, I'm well aware that PT is a really hard character to master just because you have to work with three of them, and although I didn't notice any bad lag IRL was talking a little bit about how his Squirtle could've done better if it wasn't wifi, and I believe him. Anyway that's why I need to fight other PTs to get an accurate matchup, preferably one who is better with Squirtle or Ivysaur to get a little more of an unbiased opinion, any takers?

On a side note, thanks Light.
 

Onxy

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It's not like I conceded the argument. There wasn't really anything left to say that wasn't already said.

My Ivy is pretty good, but my connection is awful =( If I played you, I'd probably lose almost all of them. Ivy is also my best online (but no where near my best offline), so if I did fight you, I would want to use Ivy only.
 

Kinzer

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So is that a challenge or not?

It's really not how bad you lose, but how you watch the match and study so long as lag allows it, that's what I did with IRL and that's how I came up with what I said. I could've just gone in there and just swung Ragnell around and just play as serious as I would anybody else, but that wasn't the purpose of those fights, it was for analysis obviously. Also it was friendlies, I really only smack talk when I'm like on the AiB ladder and I'm kicking everybody around like dustbunnies with Sonic/Ike because it matters if I get scored higher or lower on the ladder.
 

Kinzer

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Alright, I'm back after a couple of challenges with Onxy, again he said something about lag being horrible, and that's fine, however his Ivysaur was much more grusome than IRL's (sorry man.) And now I'm begining to think that Ike would have to get lucky to get a neutral matchup with Ivysaur.

What Onxy did different was instead of chasing me offstage with Ivysaur which I don't recommand doing unless you're gonig to Razor Leaf Ike to try and steal his second jump, he would sit at one spot at the edge and just wait for me to get up, and it worked numbers because he would use Vine whip if I tried to jump recover or the same results if I tried to roll, Vine whip has some good hitboxes I must admit. He could've also simple do a ftilt/Fsmash/grab if I just crawled back onto the stage, with this it puts Ike in a very unfavorable place if he is hanging on the ledge. Other than that I did the same stuff that I would've done if it were IRL's Ivysaur, and although Onxy probably doesn't like the wifi, I'm sure I wouldn't have won some of those matches had it been in person (in fact he even won one of them).

Now if I can get a Squirtle to come challenge me I can revise up that too.
 

Onxy

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Yeah, I hate playing on Wi-fi, but it seems like no one was going to take the challenge. I don't want Ivy getting a 4:6 for no reason, and I also hate complaining about lag, because people begin to think I'm lying.

I think that all of my Pokemon are good, and I can confidently say that Squirtle is by far the hardest to use online. It's going to be hard to get matchup info with wifi.
 
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