Pokedex Entry 11: Ike

[Steeler]

Alrighty y'all. Ike. He won't give PT any simpathy and we aren't his friend so we'll see how we do.

my three cents:

ivysaur does very, very well. razor leaf forces a difficult approach on ike's part, and aids ivysaur in approaching ike, if ivy wants to go on the offensive. and honestly, that's the way ivy should go, because a good ivy will be very safe and be able to see ike's counterattacks coming ahead of time, and then take the appropriate action. bair is very safe and ike will have a tough time dealing with it. it links well with ftilt, as does razor leaf. and ivy punishes ike's slow moves very well with bullet seed. ivysaur just has similar range with a lot more quickness. 7:3 ivy?

charizard will space very well with ike. zard's ground attacks, particularly ftilt and jabs, have similar range to ike's attacks. in the air, ike's fair outprioritizes everything except perhaps a well spaced rock smash...but the fair is fairly laggy. zard cannot consistently counter a fair in the air without simply attacking first and hitting during or before fair's startup lag...however, on the ground, zard can easily shield it into a grab if ike didn't space it enough, or rock smash/flamethrower out of shield. flamethrower and rock smash are your go-to moves, particularly flamethrower. really outspace and rack up damage on ike. your grab game can set up some gimps offstage and put ike in a bad position. if the ike likes to approach with spaced fairs, shield dash into him and then grab him during his landing lag. quick draws are shieldgrabbed or flamethrowered. dash attack can be shielded and then dsmashed or backward ftilt'd, since ike's dash has a habit of going through your shield and finishing behind your character.

zard does very well edgeguarding. offstage, a fair or bair means instant death for ike. a more conservative player can just stay on stage and then flamethrower ike for huge damage as he recovers with aether. i'm not completely sure on when ike's super armor frames end, but i'm fairly certain that flamethrower will put him into hitstun when he reaches the apex. i think zard has an advantage, 6/4.

squirtle is kind of tricky. both ike and squirtle are offensive characters that hate being on the defensive. squirtle is much much quicker than ike and mobile enough to get into ike's zone and pressure him...ike has to just focus on hitting squirtle as many times as he can. he has a huge swing radius on some of his attacks, so squirtle has to be careful. at high level play, i think a good squirtle will just be too confusing and too much to handle for ike. he's too slow to effectively counterattack squirtle's lagless hits. shellshifted shieldgrabs get right inside ike's range and protect squirtle from ike's attacks...and squirtle's grabs do a great job of either killing (dthrow 130%ish) or putting ike into a position where squirtle can follow up with a string of attacks. at this point, it'll be hard to test because online lag affects this matchup muuuuuuch more than ivyzard...i want to say squirtle has close to an advantage at 55/45. It could go either way, imo.

 

[Onxy]

This post does not exist.

 

[Bestiarius]

Ivy simply ***** Ike. Razor forces his appproach, which is difficult for Ike to get past if Ivy guards her front with Vine Whip. If he can get inside, Bullet Seed punishes him. It is just next to impossible for Ike to beat a good Ivysaur. Like Steeler said, Zard's go to moves are Flamethrower and Rock Smash. A lot Zard's moves, especially his tilts, seem quicker to me, but I may be wrong there. Squirtirtle is fast enough to deal some serious dameage to Ike, but if Ike can land some attacks, Squirtle gets into some big trouble fast. Squirtle should watch out for Ike's jab combo, f-smash, and Quick Draw (side-b).

 

[Steeler]

finished, and no onxy, i hadn't posted this on the ike board yet. i suggest you edit your post!

 

[Onxy]

I think Charizard does the best because he can take advantage of all of his slow attacks with moves like Rocksmash, Grab, Wing Attack, or Flame Thrower. Ike's ending lag with all of his attacks is the reason why. Ike can juggle Charizard, but he has to start it. Charizard has the better aerial game (Far quicker, and overall more useful[save Ike's Fair]), Charizard has the better tilts (though Ike's has more range and power, but faaaar too slow, if you thnk Charizard has a slow Ftilt, think again.), Ike has the better jab, but only slightly. Charizard has better smashes (Wing Attack FTW). Ike's grab game vs Charizard's is...... Ike has specials that aren't so great. I'm sure Charizard is heavier. Overall it's because of Charizard Rocksmash, Flamethrower, and Grabbing that gives Charizard the advantage.

Moves that Ike has that can give Charizard a hard time: Fair, Bair, Uair, Jab, Usmash. All minus jab, are good at juggling Charizard. I think Ike can jab lock Charizard as a juggle, but I have no clue how he does it.

It's all some-what general, but I'm not too great at a matchup discussion, lol.

 

[Mmac]

Glad to see you guys getting back on track.

 

[Steeler]

what's THAT supposed to mean mackie?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Jab lock is done by either holding A or ducking really fast and then jabbing again with the 1st 2 so you go 1 2 1 2 1 2 (pun intended).

QD shouldn't really be used when both characters are just standing there facing each other as its very easy to punish.

Dash attack shouldn't go trough the shield as well, if it does the the Ike messed up on the spacing.

 

[Steeler]

ah, my bad arturo. i haven't played any good ikes then.

 

[YagamiLight]

Alrighty y'all. Ike. He won't give PT any simpathy and we aren't his friend so we'll see how we do.

my three cents:

ivysaur does very, very well. razor leaf forces a difficult approach on ike's part, and aids ivysaur in approaching ike, if ivy wants to go on the offensive. and honestly, that's the way ivy should go, because a good ivy will be very safe and be able to see ike's counterattacks coming ahead of time, and then take the appropriate action. bair is very safe and ike will have a tough time dealing with it. it links well with ftilt, as does razor leaf. and ivy punishes ike's slow moves very well with bullet seed. ivysaur just has similar range with a lot more quickness. 7:3 ivy?

This is a pretty bad match for Ivysaur, I don't see how you could possibly see it as neutral, much less a 7:3 advantage (But then again everyone thinks that their main has a 7:3 advantage against Ike, so I don't fault you). Razor leaf is negligible, really. It's a sluggish projectile that has a linear path. It's not going to be used at close quarters combat, and the range doesn't allow Ivysaur to force Ike to act from the start either. Even if the range WAS good, best of luck playing a waiting game, especially when you're the only character in Brawl with a time limit. It may get an Ike trying to QD or Dash attack approach, but a good Ike shouldn't be doing that. I tried out Ivysaur's bair in training mode just now, and it does like what 2% or 4%? Scary move there. Not to mention that it's outranged by Ike's forward aerial, and if you make the mistake of trying to approach like that you can just take 13% off the bat. As for your slow moves bit, a good Ike is not laggy. He'll use his fast moves and just wait for an opening, in which case you'll be punished heavily. Ivysaur's range is close to Ike's on some moves, but it's not enough to help. On a side note, Ike's ledgehopped Up Air is great for Ivysaur's trying to get past you hanging on the ledge and just barely make it to safety.

charizard will space very well with ike. zard's ground attacks, particularly ftilt and jabs, have similar range to ike's attacks. in the air, ike's fair outprioritizes everything except perhaps a well spaced rock smash...but the fair is fairly laggy. zard cannot consistently counter a fair in the air without simply attacking first and hitting during or before fair's startup lag...however, on the ground, zard can easily shield it into a grab if ike didn't space it enough, or rock smash/flamethrower out of shield. flamethrower and rock smash are your go-to moves, particularly flamethrower. really outspace and rack up damage on ike. your grab game can set up some gimps offstage and put ike in a bad position. if the ike likes to approach with spaced fairs, shield dash into him and then grab him during his landing lag. quick draws are shieldgrabbed or flamethrowered. dash attack can be shielded and then dsmashed or backward ftilt'd, since ike's dash has a habit of going through your shield and finishing behind your character.

zard does very well edgeguarding. offstage, a fair or bair means instant death for ike. a more conservative player can just stay on stage and then flamethrower ike for huge damage as he recovers with aether. i'm not completely sure on when ike's super armor frames end, but i'm fairly certain that flamethrower will put him into hitstun when he reaches the apex. i think zard has an advantage, 6/4.

This is also a poor match for PT, but less so than with Ivysaur. Charizard comes close to Ike's range on some moves, but (like Ivysaur) still loses out, namely because Ike has the best range in the game. You mention Fair outprioritizing moves, this is a false notion. Aerials don't have priority in the least bit. This is evident from the fact that they don't clank. Aerial priority is based on range more or less, and Ike's Fair has the best aerial range in the game. Remember also that the Fair has IASA frames, so don't think that just because you shielded it you're safe, as Ike can retreat and jab you. Ike isn't using QD as an approach, but he might consider just letting you waste your shield or flamethrower trying to wait out Quick Draw's infinite charge. You can gimp him with a throw and a forward air, but you can do that to a whole bunch of characters also. There's nothing stopping Ike from airdodging. As for Flamethrowering near the edge, make sure not to get hit by Aether, and yes, the SA frames end as he grabs the sword.

squirtle is kind of tricky. both ike and squirtle are offensive characters that hate being on the defensive. squirtle is much much quicker than ike and mobile enough to get into ike's zone and pressure him...ike has to just focus on hitting squirtle as many times as he can. he has a huge swing radius on some of his attacks, so squirtle has to be careful. at high level play, i think a good squirtle will just be too confusing and too much to handle for ike. he's too slow to effectively counterattack squirtle's lagless hits. shellshifted shieldgrabs get right inside ike's range and protect squirtle from ike's attacks...and squirtle's grabs do a great job of either killing (dthrow 130%ish) or putting ike into a position where squirtle can follow up with a string of attacks. at this point, it'll be hard to test because online lag affects this matchup muuuuuuch more than ivyzard...i want to say squirtle has close to an advantage at 55/45. It could go either way, imo.

Oh dear me, this is a terrible match for Squirtle I'd say. Ike has the best power and range in the game, two of Squirtle's most hated things. You claim that Ike hates being on the defensive? On the contrary, he has a solid defensive game. If a Squirtle is "confusing" Ike, then the Ike is probably just stupid. Ike's nair makes what is essentially a protective shield around Ike that still manages to block Squirtles approaches. Not only that, but you can autocancel it. Ike can easily kill Squirtle, and it'll only take a few jabs or Nairs to get Squirtle to killing percentage. I wouldn't use Squirtle if I were you versus Ike, ever.

On the flipside, if you switch around, the matches aren't that terrible for you. Ike is, however, one of the three characters that has an advantage on all three Pokemon (The others being MK and Marth).

 

[Hoser]

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with your odds.

In Ike vs. Ivy, there is absolutely no way it's 7:3. Ivysaur's lack of a proper third jump makes him easy to edge guard. As for Bullet Seed, the only way I see it being effective is for edge guarding, maybe. There's not really any reason for Ike to be directly above Ivysaur, unless it's to spike him for a kill. Ike's air moves have better range as well. Razor leaf isn't as big of a deal as you make it out to be either, a simple spot dodge takes care of that. Vine whip can hinder Ike, but that's not going to kill him any time soon. In my opinion, Ike has the advantage.

If anyone cares to disagree, I'm up for a few matches.

 

[Kinzer]

To me, if you play PT and get Ike offstage, you'll have an easier time dealing with him because let's face it, our offstage game isn't that impressive. You can use any Pokeman to do either offstage combat or some type of ledgecamp/gaurd, for example Charizard could just mess up Ike pretty bad with his Aether recovery just with his flamethrower (but that's the most obvious methods, maybe some other people out there might be more creative)

Ike doesn't seem like he could do so hot versus Ivysaur. For one thing, the bulb-like thing has a great projectile, which will kind of force Ike to approach. Second, if we mess up on an approach at low %ages we can be punished with bullet seed for a guaranteed 20% damage minimum if not more if we are close enough, and for higher %ages you can always toss out a killing move with Ivysaur seems to be packing quite a few of them. If we aren't within touching range there are more options I would assume, like you can maybe follow up with a grab, for example (I dunno what else could be used since I haven't fought any PTs) .Ivysaur might not be the Pokeman you would want to use as much for offstage as much as you would for ledgecamping/gaurding. I hear Ivysaur's bair has some decent range, but other than that I can't see what else could be useful, seeing as how trying to go for a dair might not end up so great sometimes, I dunno.

Squirtle is probably just anther kind of Ike, but with less power, more speed, and better options in the air. The most obvious ways to score kills on Ike would be to get him offstage and push him too far to grab the ledge with a water gun. Squirtle can actually intercept Ike pretty well just because he is lgiht and has lots of aerials that come out fast. (Charizard would be antoher good choice as well but I'll get to it later) Squirtle could probably do some combos on Ike at low %ages and is great for racking up damage but I'm not sure how it will score any direct kills, I think for that you have to push Ike off the stage.

Finally you have Charizard. This beast alone is enough to pose Ike a threat. Well-placed Rock Smashes WILL kill quite early, and this is just considering you don't want to kill Ike with a smash. Flamethrower on its own will take care of any ground and SH aeriall approaches, not to mention it can be used as a handy Aether-gimping tool. Now if you don't feel like ledgecamping with Flamethrower Charizard has quite an impressive offstage game, a fair will probably push Ike too far off to recover if it doesn't already send him to the blast zone on the side of the stage.

I guess basically what I'm saying is just get Ike off to the side and you'll have a much easier time dealing with him than you would be on the ground or in the air. Hope that helps.

Edit Now that I am reading Light's thoughts on Ivysaur I think I gave that thing too much credit, not to mention Cam just gave me the idea of just powershielding through Razor Leaf. And he also mentioned that what good does a tether do if somebody is already camping the ledge? We out as well just say now that Ike actually has some decent tricks up his sleeve compared to Ivysaur :/

Oh and Light, Charizard's fair has kind of a sex kick attribute to it, although really small, even if Ike tried to airdodge it a smart PT would use Charizard's fair retreating knowing that Ike will DI back to the stage, and if somehow still doesn't get hit just pop out another fair, you can only spotdodge for so long until you have to do something else.

Finally now that I think about out, Squirtle doesn't have much going for it if Ike isn't at comboing %ages, what would you do when Ike happens to be at the "killing %?" Ike is on the contrary quite a defensive player so long as the opponent doesn't have range at hand, in which case Squirtle lacks.

Anyway don't give up hope, remember what I said about Ike being an easier target offstage then on...just don't try offstage combat with Ivysaur or be the one offstage :/ And I'm pretty sure if you worked at it hard enough you can kill Ike with Squirtle, I can only imagine though it would probably be hard doing it the legit way. Your best bet with Ike is probably Charizard, he seems to have the least trouble with the threesome.

 

[Onxy]

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with your odds.

In Ike vs. Ivy, there is absolutely no way it's 7:3. Ivysaur's lack of a proper third jump makes him easy to edge guard. As for Bullet Seed, the only way I see it being effective is for edge guarding, maybe. There's not really any reason for Ike to be directly above Ivysaur, unless it's to spike him for a kill. Ike's air moves have better range as well. Razor leaf isn't as big of a deal as you make it out to be either, a simple spot dodge takes care of that. Vine whip can hinder Ike, but that's not going to kill him any time soon. In my opinion, Ike has the advantage.

If anyone cares to disagree, I'm up for a few matches.

your just saying HOW Ike can beat Ivy, not what advantage Ike has over Ivy.

This is a pretty bad match for Ivysaur, I don't see how you could possibly see it as neutral, much less a 7:3 advantage (But then again everyone thinks that their main has a 7:3 advantage against Ike, so I don't fault you). Razor leaf is negligible, really. It's a sluggish projectile that has a linear path. It's not going to be used at close quarters combat, and the range doesn't allow Ivysaur to force Ike to act from the start either. Even if the range WAS good, best of luck playing a waiting game, especially when you're the only character in Brawl with a time limit. It may get an Ike trying to QD or Dash attack approach, but a good Ike shouldn't be doing that. I tried out Ivysaur's bair in training mode just now, and it does like what 2% or 4%? Scary move there. Not to mention that it's outranged by Ike's forward aerial, and if you make the mistake of trying to approach like that you can just take 13% off the bat. As for your slow moves bit, a good Ike is not laggy. He'll use his fast moves and just wait for an opening, in which case you'll be punished heavily. Ivysaur's range is close to Ike's on some moves, but it's not enough to help. On a side note, Ike's ledgehopped Up Air is great for Ivysaur's trying to get past you hanging on the ledge and just barely make it to safety.

Ivy's Razor Leaf is good for approaching, since Ivy has to somewhat approach almost everytime because of the time limit, it's really helpful.

You're only seeing Bair for it's damage, and not what it does. It's a great spacer, not to mention that you can chain so many things if you get a hit with Bair (such as another Bair, followed by a Nair, and a possible Bullet Seed, Utilt, or another Nair). As for approaching Ike with Bair and getting swatted with his Fair, this isn't Squirtle your dealing with, I'd like to see anyone swat Ivy's bair with a slow move like Fair multiple times. Unless that Ivysaur is trash like most of them, it shouldn't happen.

Ike's quick moves? What? Jab, Bair, Dash, Grab, and maybe Dsmash/Nair? Only use them? That's kinda limiting yourself.

Ike has a little more range over Ivy, but I guess you forgot that his moves are slower by a huge margin. Otherwise MK wouldn't be a problem for Ike. Ivy is a REALLY quick attacker, most of her moves are near instant, with the exception of her smashes.

 

[Ussi]

Ivysaur to me is an Olimar but much more easier. Annoying range, a projectile, long grab range, and tether. Except dash > Powershield nullifies razor leaf due to Ivy being in post lag while Ike can jab (And he's sliding due to the dash). Razor leaf just helps you not get ledge hogged.
Ivy never wants to get offstage cause first and foremost, an aether spike on Ivy = death at ANY %.If you're close and do razor leaf, Ike can SH over it and fair.
Ivy's bair is more of an interrupting move, used to interrupt Ike in the air. Ike's fair will still outrange every aerial you have.
Now when it comes to speed, I believe Ivy's fsmash isn't too fast now, probably as slow as(If not slower) Ike's ftilt (Which should be around the same killing power)
That little range Ike has makes a difference in a spacing game. Ike's should know their range because that is a key point in winning so they will maximize their range to win. Now about those quick moves Ivy has, well Ike has some quick moves too like Nair and jab. Jab being one of the fastest moves in the game. if you want to outrange jab, we'll outrange you with ftilt or fair.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ivy does have a big advantage over ike, razor leaf pushes ike to approach, it is NOTlinear, it can go up,down,slower or faster, the trick about bair is range, no damage, a bair wall for ivy uts ike on an awful situation where he keeps getting hit and cant touch ivy, and bullet seed does a LOT of damage on ike.
charizard easily shieldgrabs ikes fair, and the last time i checked, chars grab outranges ikes first jab.
squirtle is movile enough to avoid ike attacks, and can chain moves very well on ike, and ikes nair doesnt protect you from above
edit: come on, saying that bullet is just for edgeguarding is the senseless thing i have ever read on this boards, please play more pts, and bullet seed's firt hit launches you to the seed stream if you are near ivy
saying that ike has an advantage over the three pokemon is just ridiculous

 

[Kirk]

I find PT rather straight forward in my experience, for most of the reasons already listed here.

Everyone ALWAYS uses the argument of "Ike's attacks are too slow therefore he can't possibly do well in this matchup." This may arise of people not playing an Ike who actually knows what they are doing. I myself enjoy watching bodies fly as a well placed FSmash ruins their day

Meh what do I know...I only come to advocate player intelligence as part of the matchup...but maybe that's now what you are looking for :o

EDIT:

Ivy does have a big advantage over ike, razor leaf pushes ike to approach, it is NOTlinear, it can go up,down,slower or faster,

So it's not linear...ok...doesn't mean I can't powershield and be on my way. It's easy to see coming and I see little reason how this makes any trouble for Ike.

the trick about bair is range, no damage, a bair wall for ivy uts ike on an awful situation where he keeps getting hit and cant touch ivy,

Dash Attack > Bair. If well timed and spaced dash attack can easily bypass Ivy's Bair. Though it's not the only option.

and bullet seed does a LOT of damage on ike.

Bullet Seed does crap loads of damage on everyone...I hate that move lol.

charizard easily shieldgrabs ikes fair, and the last time i checked, chars grab outranges ikes first jab.

I would LOVE to see the logic behind this one...correct me if I'm wrong...but not a SINGLE character in this game can shield grab Ike's Fair. And remember we are assuming an Ike knows how to SPACE...because, you know, that's what Ike's do...

If his first jab is shielded, I believe he can be grabbed, so you're right on that one. You just have to time it right before the second or jab or before Ike can grab you.

squirtle is movile enough to avoid ike attacks, and can chain moves very well on ike, and ikes nair doesnt protect you from above

I believe squirtle does give more trouble than the others with his aerial mobility on his side. His lightness is his biggest weakness imo.

P.S. Nair DOES protect slightly above you upon activation.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Ike has a slight range advantage on Ivysaur. The only problem lies in the fact that Ivysaur actually does fine versus Ike of-stage. Both of Ike's recovery options can be nullified with Bair; You can slap him out of Aether and you can slap him out of Quick Draw. You can just Bair him, tether back onto the ledge and repeat. Aether itself opens itself up to being tether gimped if Ike comes from too low, since Ivysaur can do the the thing where it barely gets off the ledge and then is tethered to the ledge from above for a second or two.

The only thing is that Ike will be on the offensive on this fight always because of Razor Leaf. Yes, spot-dodging, shielding, whatever. It doesn't change the fact that Ike will be forced to make the approach, which is where, in my opinion, he is weaker. The slight range advantage doesn't really make much of a difference because Ike suffers some cool-down on some of his larger ranged attacks (Ftilt, Fair, etc.) and is therefore open to being punished by Ivysaur's almost equal range (Ftilt, grab, etc.) Even if you space well you're going to get hit.

No one's mentioned yet that all the Pokemon have good throws for putting Ike far, far away from the ledge. Squirtle/Charizard's Dthrow and Ivysaur's Bthrow put Ike in a highly unfavourable position.

Squirtle does worst, most obviously. He dies early and he is outranged. You basically have to bait versus Ike to get your openings, which isn't good at all. Once you get an opening though, Ike is pretty exposed, though if you're not fast enough about it then he can easily get you off with Nair.

Water Gun is atually viable here, since neither of Ike's recoveries like it.

Charizard does well too, but he's a big target. If any of Ike's attacks get shielded, then Charizard can get a grab due to larger grab range or cool-down lag. The only thing that kind of interfere's with this is one jab, grab, though if you read it then Charizard gets a grab anyway.

 

[Ussi]

Kirk...you know Olimar, Samus, ZZS, Link can shield grab fair... They have a long tether grab range. I'm thinking Ivy can too. But Charizard shield grabbing? that's a laugh, I know zard has a very long grab range but its still not enough to grab Ike's spaced fair. If you are shield grabbing an Ike's fair, he sucks.


Well 50% people claim Ike is too slow to do good. The other 50% played a good Ike.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I don't know about actually "shield grabbing," but the cool-down on Ike's Fair doesn't require much but a fox-trotted SC'd grab to get Ike, I think. Charizard has the largest non-tether grab, slightly behind Ivysaur.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

retro is right, ivys most ranger attacks are slow/laggy, so ike has trouble spacing against ivy and zard, btw, charizards grab range is better than DDDs, and its really fast

 

[Natch]

I've played this matchup before against my friend's Ike, I'll work on getting some replays upload within the next few days. Just letting you guys know that it seems to go from Best to Worst:

Zard
Squirt
Ivy

I'm pretty sure it goes this way. Squirt above Ivy because you're smaller and harder to hit. I might be wrong, but you'll have to see my replays to be the judge of that.

By the way, guys? This matchup is not the cakewalk you're making it out to be.

 

[Onxy]

I've played really good Ike's (when my connection was a lot better), and Squirtle easily does the worst. It's not horrible, but It is a possible disadvantage.


Edit @Natch: Yeah seriously, I never said it would, but some others kinda did. Shouldn't there be more of a discussion?

 

[The Real Inferno]

Remind me to play you in Ike vs PT, Sam. It looks like there's a couple of things I'll have to show you.

 

[Onxy]

Sam?

Anyway, I challenged one Ike....but he's gone :/

 

[YagamiLight]

Ivy's Razor Leaf is good for approaching, since Ivy has to somewhat approach almost everytime because of the time limit, it's really helpful.

It's decent enough, but Ike should just powershield and move on, it is not a factor in the match.

You're only seeing Bair for it's damage, and not what it does. It's a great spacer, not to mention that you can chain so many things if you get a hit with Bair (such as another Bair, followed by a Nair, and a possible Bullet Seed, Utilt, or another Nair). As for approaching Ike with Bair and getting swatted with his Fair, this isn't Squirtle your dealing with, I'd like to see anyone swat Ivy's bair with a slow move like Fair multiple times. Unless that Ivysaur is trash like most of them, it shouldn't happen.

I'm not claiming it's not a good spacer, but the risk of dealing minor damage versus making a mistake and taking quite some damage is to be noted. Nothing prevents Ike from just dodging the back air and getting behind you either.

Ike's quick moves? What? Jab, Bair, Dash, Grab, and maybe Dsmash/Nair? Only use them? That's kinda limiting yourself.
There's one or two more, but with those and Fair as a main part of the arsenal, it's recommended, not limiting yourself, to use those most of the time. If you use a laggy attack too much, then you're not being especially smart in that game.

Ike has a little more range over Ivy, but I guess you forgot that his moves are slower by a huge margin. Otherwise MK wouldn't be a problem for Ike. Ivy is a REALLY quick attacker, most of her moves are near instant, with the exception of her smashes.
Everyone seems to be confused on Ivysaur's gender, last time I was here it was a "she". She's fast, yes, but she doesn't have a gimping game like MK and her killing options are very slow, if powerful. Not to mention she's light and easy edgehogged.

If you guys would like to play, just send a PM and I can arrange a time.

 

[Onxy]

It's decent enough, but Ike should just powershield and move on, it is not a factor in the match.

It's a factor. Ivy will use it in the middle of the game, so that's just one more thing that Ike has to look out for.

I'm not claiming it's not a good spacer, but the risk of dealing minor damage versus making a mistake and taking quite some damage is to be noted. Nothing prevents Ike from just dodging the back air and getting behind you either.

What risk? A retreating Bair from Ivy can easily work as an approach, and because it's retreating AND auto cancels, it's rarily going to be punished.

There's one or two more, but with those and Fair as a main part of the arsenal, it's recommended, not limiting yourself, to use those most of the time. If you use a laggy attack too much, then you're not being especially smart in that game.

I never mentioned that Ike would use a laggy attack too much. I would hope that he doesn't so I can get some valid input.

Everyone seems to be confused on Ivysaur's gender, last time I was here it was a "she". She's fast, yes, but she doesn't have a gimping game like MK and her killing options are very slow, if powerful. Not to mention she's light and easy edgehogged.

I called it a she. Ivy doesn't have much of a gimp game, but once your off that stage, it's not going to be great of Ike. Now I'm not going to say "instant death" because that's just stupid to say, but Ivy does well against attackers/approachers. That's what Ike has to do to get on stage, so Ivy's main role is greatly amplified because of this.

 

[Kirk]

Ah Ussi you're right...I forgot about those tether grabs xD

Btw challenge more people...it might help.

 

[YagamiLight]

It's a factor. Ivy will use it in the middle of the game, so that's just one more thing that Ike has to look out for.

It's not fast, so even if Ivysaur does launch it out, Ike shouldn't worry about it.

What risk? A retreating Bair from Ivy can easily work as an approach, and because it's retreating AND auto cancels, it's rarily going to be punished.

If you retreat it, an advancing Fair or just a ground based movement can help.

I never mentioned that Ike would use a laggy attack too much. I would hope that he doesn't so I can get some valid input.

If you play any good Ike, I can guarantee that you'll only see well timed laggy moves.

I called it a she. Ivy doesn't have much of a gimp game, but once your off that stage, it's not going to be great of Ike. Now I'm not going to say "instant death" because that's just stupid to say, but Ivy does well against attackers/approachers. That's what Ike has to do to get on stage, so Ivy's main role is greatly amplified because of this.

Oh, I meant in general. Yes, Ivysaur can probably harass an Ike off the stage, but I don't think she can do as much as say..Marth or Meta Knight can.

It's not terrible for Ivysaur, but....

 

[MysticKenji]

Ivy's not light, Yagami.
She weighs around the same as Mario iirc, which is mid-weight.

*will make a moar useful post later*

 

[YagamiLight]

Ivy's not light, Yagami.
She weighs around the same as Mario iirc, which is mid-weight.

*will make a moar useful post later*

Why, you're right. My mistake.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, if I remember Ike well (and because we had sort of a sub discussion [goes into bunker]), here are my two cents.

Ike vs Squirtle: By god! Ike get's Squirtle easy on land at least. Ike is heavy, strong, and pretty decent ranged. Everything will make Squirtle go in his pants (if he had pants). In the air, Squirtle SHOULD get the advantage, but Ike has a few tricks up his sleeve to prevent gimping (I can never gimp an Ike with a Squirtle, namely because of aether). Ike wins, no johns

Ike vs Ivysaur: gee, this is kind of even... Ivysaur has an actual projectile, so actually hitting Ike from afar isn't a problem, but Ike has a higher range than Ivy with most attacks. Ike's weight keeps him in bullet seed for longer, but it helps him survive the spam better (note the word better). Oh, and they both have sucky recoveries that are rather easy to gimp/mess up (oh, and aether doesn't count as a kamikaze move, as Ike dies before the opponent. I know, i tried).

Ike vs Charizard: out of all the heavyweights, only like one or two can out do Charizard (I think Snake is in this group). Sadly for Ike fans, Ike isn't one of them. For starters, Charizard and Ike have around the same range (Charizard also has flamethrower). Charizard also (I think, Eruption doesn't break shields right?) sheild grab the **** out of Ike. Also, Ike's recovery is beow average, Charizard's is above average. I'd give a point to Charizard, but not by much. Ike can hold his own.

 

[Onxy]

It's not fast, so even if Ivysaur does launch it out, Ike shouldn't worry about it.

You're missing the point. You HAVE to avoid it, or take damage. As in, you HAVE to go out of your way to avoid it.

If you retreat it, an advancing Fair or just a ground based movement can help.

Sounds good on paper, but something you have to do in advance, not something I would call an advantage.

If you play any good Ike, I can guarantee that you'll only see well timed laggy moves.

That's not much of an advantage there =/ I can say the same for all of the Pokemon's powerful attacks, and they still have other smashes that are usuable that's not only for the kill.

Oh, I meant in general. Yes, Ivysaur can probably harass an Ike off the stage, but I don't think she can do as much as say..Marth or Meta Knight can.

Sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant that Ivy is going to stay on stage waiting for Ike to do what he needs, so Ivy can possible punish it.

As for it not being terrible for Ivy - I know it isn't. Ike really has nothing on Ivy besides little more range, and power. Ike's overall slow - everything is except his Bair, Jab, and grab - which is grab is far inferior, andthat can be used to grab anything that's even well spaced, because of Ike's ending lag. Where as Ivy also has great range, and is a very quick attacker. Also Ivy has the abillity to punish with a move that deals 30%+ that's far easier to land than anything Ike has. Ivy can shut down any sort of approach with Bair, Vinewhip, or just a grab (depending on where we are standing). If Ike were a quick attacker, then I'd say that he is at an advantage, but he is bad against Ivy for the same reason DK is - not to mention DK has quicker attacks - albeit bigger.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ike's quick moves? What? Jab, Bair, Dash, Grab, and maybe Dsmash/Nair? Only use them? That's kinda limiting yourself.

Ike's jab leads into grabs, Tilts, more jabs, and Final smash =p not that limited since it sets up a lot of things. Same with grab and jab to final smash is an inescapable 70% combo that can kill.

I've played really good Ike's (when my connection was a lot better), and Squirtle easily does the worst. It's not horrible, but It is a possible disadvantage.


Edit @Natch: Yeah seriously, I never said it would, but some others kinda did. Shouldn't there be more of a discussion?

Sounds like you think of it as a cake walk to me...

*will post more useful post later as well* Kind of rushed right now.

Anyways IMO it's Zard > Ivy > squirtle

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike vs Squirtle: By god! Ike get's Squirtle easy on land at least. Ike is heavy, strong, and pretty decent ranged. Everything will make Squirtle go in his pants (if he had pants). In the air, Squirtle SHOULD get the advantage, but Ike has a few tricks up his sleeve to prevent gimping (I can never gimp an Ike with a Squirtle, namely because of aether). Ike wins, no johns

Yeah, this is the Pokemon thatPT shouldn't be using. But I must nitpick..."decent ranged"? You do realize has the game's best range, right?

Ike vs Ivysaur: gee, this is kind of even... Ivysaur has an actual projectile, so actually hitting Ike from afar isn't a problem, but Ike has a higher range than Ivy with most attacks. Ike's weight keeps him in bullet seed for longer, but it helps him survive the spam better (note the word better). Oh, and they both have sucky recoveries that are rather easy to gimp/mess up (oh, and aether doesn't count as a kamikaze move, as Ike dies before the opponent. I know, i tried).

It's not even, unfortunately. Ivysaur's projectile isn't actually useful. Bullet Seed is a good move, but you don't want to use it against a character like that can severely punish you for missing too much. Ike's Aether is actually a decent recovery, compared to Ivysaur's tether grab. And Aethercide is quite an option, but I'd recommend Ike just Aetherspike Ivysaur instead.

Ike vs Charizard: out of all the heavyweights, only like one or two can out do Charizard (I think Snake is in this group). Sadly for Ike fans, Ike isn't one of them. For starters, Charizard and Ike have around the same range (Charizard also has flamethrower). Charizard also (I think, Eruption doesn't break shields right?) sheild grab the **** out of Ike. Also, Ike's recovery is beow average, Charizard's is above average. I'd give a point to Charizard, but not by much. Ike can hold his own.

Ike, DK, King Dedede and Snake are all better heavyweights than Charizard is, but Charizard actually has the best chance against Ike. Ike outranges Charizard, once again. And you're going to have to be playing a bad Ike to shieldgrab the Fair. Ike's recovery is mediocre, yes, but Charizard's jumps don't count for that much. It's Ike's advantage, but only slightly.

I don't fault anyone for lack of Ike experience, good Ikes are rare.

 

[Onxy]

Ike's jab leads into grabs, Tilts, more jabs, and Final smash =p not that limited since it sets up a lot of things. Same with grab and jab to final smash is an inescapable 70% combo that can kill.



Sounds like you think of it as a cake walk to me...

*will post more useful post later as well* Kind of rushed right now.

Anyways IMO it's Zard > Ivy > squirtle

I said SQUIRTLE might be a disadvantage xD I'm not biased.

 

[Ussi]

eruption does not break shields. (well its not a property of it like shield breaker)

I believe Ike has more power than Charizard. But none the less they are both power houses, they are both dying sooner than later. Charizard can get aether spiked if he has no jumps left at a proper %. Charizard does have fire breath, which is a bothersome thing. But i think an peaked aether can avoid getting hit, that or you'll just have to endure one fire breath hit, by the time you get out and aether again it should be too short. If it isn't you should have hit Charizard with Aether. On BF You can pretty aether under the slope and hit charizard so he doesn't fire breath you. Stages like FD Maybe charizard can hinder you for two aethers.

Charizard has a spike so QD becomes useless as a recovery. Heck, Charizard does a good job stopping QD with the fire breath so yea not to be used. I don't fully understand rock smash but it hurts a lot when you get hit by it. But your disjointed range beats it when they clash. Charizard's usmash is pretty strong so gotta keep an eye out for it.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, apparently my definition of range is different from everyone else's. My definition is every attack in general, including projectiles. In that sense, Ike has a pretty decent range due to the range of his attacks, but without a projectile, it is below some other peoples. However, we do agree on Squirtle.

Razor leaf, whole somewhat minuscule, is still better than what Ike got, nothin'. Oh, and Aethercide, it doesn't work, especially when it's down to the wire (you die first, end of story). Ike's recovery, while better than Ivysaur's , is worse than a character like, oh I don't know, Falco's, in the sense that Ike's second jump is tiny and Aether, while it can recover, has a higher rate of backfiring than an average character's does (Dedede & Kirby makes up for their rebound up B with many more jumps). Ike's recovery is terrible, just not as bad as Ivy's.

Snake we know (so people do consider him in the same class as Charizard), DK we don't agree with, Dedede we are nearing an even conclusion (it is even right?), and we are currently talking about Ike in this thread. Also, There is Rock smash, throws, and Charizard has an air game of his own. It is likely to be even (again). However, due to the fact that the other two are rather mediocre here, this is yet another PT disadvantage, just not a counter.

 

[Steeler]

rock smash is also disjointed, btw. ike is stronger than charizard, but like ike, all of zard's tilts also have ko potential. i think ike and zard are really similar, one is just quicker and the other stronger. however, charizard's flamethrower is something ike doesn't have and won't like when properly spaced. zard can read an ike approaching with a fair and deter him, if only slightly. zard can then cancel the ft early (it has less lag than bowser's) and dashgrab forward or something...just a scenario.

guys, let's step back a minute. this is IKE vs POKEMON TRAINER. i seriously doubt either side has played a good opponent lol. i made the controversial analysis in the op so i could lure you ike's into discussing. if i'd put 'yeah all three are at a disadvantage' (which i really disagree with, ivy and zard stand a good chance), then you guys would just be 'yeah, i agree, move on'.

ike is really in a bad spot off stage vs charizard. flamethrower, spike, and zard's usual fair/bair gimping moves make it even tougher for ike to recover. and zard's grabs do a wonderful job of getting ike off stage.

here's something i want the ikes to comment on:

how does ike usually approach? spaced fairs are the only thing that i'm sure of, and both zard and ivy have the grab range to just shield it and then dashgrab ike as he lands, since there is a bit of lag time afterward. if pt is quick enough, ike shouldn't be able to retaliate...and even if he is a bit slow...what can ike do in that situation? jab? ivyzard will have their shield up and be able to grab right after.

so yeah, comment.

also cameron we can battle online anytime today for this, or even if you host something later today.

a lot of the discussion is theorycraft, so if anyone wants to play and is near wichita, ks...let me know. lag vs ike is really bad lol.

 

[Onxy]

lag vs ike is really bad lol.

No kidding! I couldn't avoid ANY of his strong attacks.

 

[Ussi]

Well, you can utilt a Squirte recovering with waterfall. (least i did once) I managed to dtilt spike a charizard out of his up B and hit him with eruption another time. And I think QD beats out rock smash o_O... (testing maybe needed, it happened in my match against Onxy)