Pokémon Trainer VS Wario

[Toshi]

Make sure you don't pummel when he's about to break out, as Wario will ground release instead.

An interesting observation:

Using a forward smash as any pokemon to punish a missed bite will trade hits at best, otherwise Wario will get the bite off. A simple way around this is to charge the smash and wait for the ending frames of Wario's bite. I believe Squirtle can hit with an up smash (spacing is a bit tight though).

Just for those who don't know =P

 

[Toby.]

As far as I'm aware, bullet seed can't hit wario from a grab release.

 

[Bestiarius]

Make sure to remind me to play serious, b/c I tend to goof off against low tiers >_>

You main Ganondorf and goof off against low tiers???????

And yeah, I'm with Toby. I can't see Bullet Seed having enough range to hit Wario out of a grab release. Maybe ftilt/dtilt?

 

[CoonTail]

Well I figured as much that f-tilt or jab may cause you to get eaten instead of punishing the way you wanted to.

My question now becomes what can we land on wario when he is in grounded bite animation?....I know part of the answer is now hit him at the end of the bit but the real questions become what are our safe options with squirtle if he misses a bite.

Its gonna be a big issue if there are situations like this that occur where we really have no safe tool to punish with.

 

[Toby.]

Beast, wario goes upwards from the grab release, not sideways. Ftilt and dtilt definitely don't work

bullet seed doesn't work because he is slightly too far to the side. If we move forward and bullet seed then he already has enough time to escape.

Coontail: squirtle's ftilt beats wario's bite

 

[T-block]

i always just jump over him and b-air as squirtle if he misses a bite

 

[Vermy]

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROCKSMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!


I feel the above statement is relevant to the current conversation.

 

[CoonTail]

-LOL vermy I was talking about squirtle only

-Toby so f-tilt does beat it so an angled up f-tilt should do the job which is great because I swear the knockback isnt the same as a straight f-tilt so if you beat it with the up tilted f-tilt and it doesnt push him that far back a jab combo or jab cancel grab could follow.

Wow so looks like a missed bite could be a way bigger oppourtunity than i originally thought.

 

[Zigsta]

Beast, PX mains Wario. He just puts Ganondorf as his main on SWF. That said, his Ganondorf is really freaking good.

 

[Vermy]

K so I had some friendlies vs my mate's Wario and encouraged him to play as gay and campy as possible.

Toby, you're right. Squirtle's Utilt and up angled ftilt are amazing in this matchup. Also uair. Nair. Is. Amazing. Try it and you'll see. Spam it. Full hop dair oos. DON'T USE WITHDRAW HE WILL WAFT YOU AND ITS INSTADEATH FROM 0%. Fsmash his fsmash. Just to piss him off. Survival is Warios biggest tool against Squirtle, since you won't be killing him with dthrow. Forward HP to kill. That's all you have.
55-45 Wario.

Contrary to belief and hype, Zard gets destroyed. Completely shut down. All he has is usmash, rocksmash and short burst flamethrower. Get a grab and you get a free usmash/dsmash (depends on air or ground release) and sweetspot ftilt/fair knocks him off his bike in midair. Rocksmash tears through Wario's fair, bair and dair if you can predict it. If not, you're gunna be comboed. Zard hates bite>dacus. ;__;
65-35 wario.

Ivy does slightly and I mean SLIGHTLY better. Razor leaf doesn't exist here. Its a distraction to Wario and nothing more. Ftilt and nair work wonders. Dtilt is useless. =[ you can DI up almost everything he has (except fsmash) high enough to get back to stage without getting gimped. Bair in small doses is good, but ftilt is better. Bullsh*tseed to punish warios dthrow follow ups is safe. Full hop retreating fair looks scary as, and is a half decent spacing tool as it covers the front and a little above Ivysaur, which is where he wants to get at.
60-40 Wario. (But in reality 62-38)

65-35 Wario. Bad, but not impossible if you learn certain tricks.

 

[Steeler]

rock smash a wario riding his bike and you get the massive damage hitboxes, although i don't know why he'd be riding it at you.

zard's retreating bair (and fair, but less so) is good.

how are you getting a free dsmash on ground release? that's impossible.

hydrograb at the edge of the stage = free aerial.

ivysaur gets uair and nair out of grab, not that you will grab him much with frame 13 grabs anyway.

 

[Magik0722]

I retract my statement on watergun camping wario, it doesnt work

I still stand by my statement that zard is the best choice

 

[Zigsta]

Get any vids recorded, Magik?

 

[Magik0722]

Yes i got 2 videos against phantom x

ill let yall know when they are uplaoded

 

[Zigsta]

Yes i got 2 videos against phantom x

ill let yall know when they are uplaoded

Sweetness. I'm surprised you're not asleep now--didn't you guys get back to RGV at like 10 AM?

 

[Magik0722]

I just got back right now
i slept on the way over here

 

[PhantomX]

Magik's Zard was pretty gnarl. Upsmash OoS is actually pretty dirty against us, and Rock Smash will randomly beat out moves that it just lost to a second ago, meaning massive damage, lol. Just don't get offstage or let Wario get inside your range or you will probably die as him.

Zard's nair is weird o_O

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Charizars stands his chance against wario, not as ok as squirtle, but he can actualy kill the fattie....
Use your range to keep wario at bay, make him fear rock smash , retreating Bairs and back-facing Nairs work well...if he does get in, OOS Usmash/rocksmash/GTFU of there.....
@ Phatom X...by weird you mean the rare stuff about the Z axis on Nair punishing wario's spotdodge??

 

[PhantomX]

I don't spotdodge. It was more weird for me b/c it still hits a lot later than the animation makes it seem like it should be hitting (i.e. the hitbox sits out there for a long while).

If Wario is in your face, Rock Smash is too slow, and doesn't cover both sides of you like upsmash.

 

[Magik0722]

If the warios name is phantom X do a fmash with charizard out of a grab releaase

 

[PhantomX]

LOL, dude, that was one time, and you basically strong armed me into playing Wario

You also have to remember that I didn't even play regular singles >: (

You could've beaten me and I wouldn't have johned, but I will john all day about a stupid grab release thing that would normally never happen

 

[Magik0722]

lol yeah that was probably the only time that will ever happen but its still funny

I forced you to play for the PT boards, im sure you understand since you practically command the wario boards

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, I know. I really could use the vids. Next time we'll do a MM and it will be super serious, full of your camping and my shenanigans.

This still gives a pretty good indicator of what to expect though XD

 

[Vermy]

So i just did some testing and I do believe Squirtle has can land any aerial/Fsmash on Wario out of an air release. If somebody else would like to test this, we could have our hands on some real pape sauce.

 

[Steeler]

So i just did some testing and I do believe Squirtle has can land any aerial/Fsmash on Wario out of an air release. If somebody else would like to test this, we could have our hands on some real pape sauce.

i haven't tested this but i'm 95% sure that he can just jump to avoid dsmash/fsmash/the part of usmash that actually does something. you can land any aerial though.

 

[Vermy]

Will be good to know about, since I doubt most Wario's will be that knowledged in the PT matchup. We're still a big minority right now. Numbers are growing but not many more are attending tourneys.

Back on topic, air release>uair x infinity is secks.

Hmmm.
Release>watergun/waterfall?

 

[Magik0722]

lol why would you do waterfall ever?
its easily SDIable and you wil lget like 17% punishment

 

[T-block]

I can confirm any aerial. If they're at too high oh a percent to hit with more than one u-air, I'll usually go for d-air. They can jump out of any of the smashes though

 

[Vermy]

Yeahhhh waterfall is a bad idea. *facepalms*

If the Wario doesn't know about the jump out, then we can go for it. Test with the release usmash, if they get hit by the full power of it and you land another grab you can go for the fsmash/dsmash.

Does anyone know the % that the weak hitbox of usmash does?

 

[T-block]

Don't most warios instinctively jump out? Even if you hit them with a smash once then I'm sure they'll try to jump out next time. If you notice they're not jumping then charizard can land a rock smash ;D

 

[CoonTail]

So in short some great options would be

Squirtle: Air release > U-air at lower %'s
Air release > D-air at higher %'s

Ivy: Air release > N-air at lower %'s
Air release > U-air at higher %'s

Now zard I sit here confused because cant we essentially land a U-smash out of grab release on wario due to its size and hitbox? If so than his would be....

Zard: Air release > F-air at lower %'s or higher %'s
Air release > U-smash at higher %'s or at lower %'s

or vise versa I believe u-smash does more damage than f-air and f-air has a better gimp chance so stage position and damage play a huge roll. F-air next to the side of the stage obv U-smash for more damage or better kill opportunity. So in short we need %'s u-smash will kill wario at to determine which is the better option when for zard

 

[T-block]

i always go for u-smash as charizard... i think he might be able to DI the first hit, but i've never had anyone do it.

 

[PhantomX]

You can SDI out of the first hit, but you have to be expecting it in order to do that.

Also, you can't get a rock smash after a ground break...

Seriously though, you guys should be focusing on aspects of this matchup other than grab release, b/c they're much much more important to your success.

 

[T-block]

I meant if they're not jumping immediately out of air release. But I agree... let's stop talking so much about grab release, considering how hard it is to land a grab

 

[CoonTail]

I wasnt trying to focus on the grab release I was trying to end the chat about it by just compiling a list of everything a PT SHOULD do out of a grab release is all. So now that that is settled we should start discussing what else we need to get around because we havent really explained so much what wario does as a whole that makes him have advantage vs PT.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

If Wario is in your face, Rock Smash is too slow, and doesn't cover both sides of you like upsmash.

Yeah, but the rock comes out on frame 3, and if wario is attacking (which is what he should be doing on that scenario) he will break it and take a good cuhnk of damage... and literally , if wario is "in your face" then its on the front of you .... Usmash is still a better option, but you dont want to disminish it

 

[CoonTail]

Ok so my question now to phantom x is what is wario's frame data for his major attacks....why dont we start to see what rock smash can effectively counter because I have been using this the most in the peach and fox matchup where if you can catch them as they are first truely "getting in on you" the frame 3 rock smash can really stop a potential in zard's"too close to fight zone beat down" by one solid rock smash counter.

So if we can actually see how fast wario's attacks are coming at us we may have a way bigger oppourtunity to stop his inside assault with a well placed counter on one of his major approaches or options once hes inside. So phantomX can you please tell us your attack choices once your in close to zard and the frames they come out on?