Please Lock Topic

itsbme · Feb 27, 2014

I started this topic because I think his Marth is really unique. I wanted to discuss the things considered to be his strong points, and also try to point out his weak points. Also, I wanted to post videos highlighting each year of his activity. For time(and sanity sake), i'm not going to post every single video out there, but enough to make it a good collection to show his growth as a player since he started playing, and since his return.

The Discussion

As most know, Ken was once considered the best player back in the early days of melee, before retiring in 2007. He came back in late 2012, and he wasn't the unstoppable force he was in 2005. All those years of rust had taken it's toll it seems, and the game really did change in 5 years. But ever since KoC3, Ken has become pretty active and has really improved his Marth game.

First, what an aggressive Marth! Most modern Marth's opt to dash dance camp and wavedash in and out of shield, poking and waiting, ect. Ken, on the other hand, gets in your face. It isn't mindless aggression though. He seems to maintain a certain space and does actions at a given time to keep himself safe, but at the same time he's able to act on a lot of openings you may give him.

Second, "THAT WAS A TIPPER, THAT WAS A TIPPER!". Ken really loves his forward smash. He ends a lot of players stocks landing it, and I think of any active player, he probably is the best at landing the tipper. His ability to gauge landing it is pretty frightening, and if you're in contest against him, you better be wary of it. Although he probably needs to refine its use (see Ken vs S2J getting kneed in the face, ouch...), it's one of Ken's options that makes him a legitimate threat to any player.

He often opts to to use foward-b as well. From what i've seen, he's toning down its use a bit, but he still goes for it often. One problem is against the likes of Samus, he'll do it just to eat a crouch-canceled down-smash. Also, he seems to have a bad habit of doing the full dance even when it's not going to be any benefit, like if you roll behind him.

One thing of course he's good at is his dashing game. What I like about it is that Ken seems to understand how to space Marth with it, like for example, he knows to dash way->wavedash->dash away in certain moments to gain proper space so when he decides to dash towards, he doesn't run into your attacks. I know it doesn't sound special, but if you watch matches of high level players, even they sometimes neglect that concept and run right into random smashes. Now i'm not saying only Ken is good at it, but I think it's something he understands that mainly the top players of today take into account, or at least are able to apply it effectively.

Now the negatives. A thing I heard in commentary I find to be true is that fast characters give Ken problems. Sometimes it seems like he gets pinned down, and the likes of Fox and Falcon can poor on the damage really fast on him. Ken almost seems like a glass cannon sometimes.

Now i'm not an expert on DI, so I won't touch that. He's DI seems okay to me though.

All in all I like Ken's return. Sure he's not number one, but I enjoy seeing his playstyle, and I think his strategies are something to consider for your own Marth.

I don't claim the above to be fact, in all honesty i'm not a ranked player, just some guy who plays casually and made videos once upon a time. They're just my observations, so I would be glad to have anyone give their opinions, and correct anything I have said.

The Videos

2003

Tournament Go 4
Ken (Marth) vs. Sam (Falco) [Money Match]

2004

Game Over
Losers Quarterfinals
Ken vs Chillin - Match 1
Ken vs Chillin - Match 2
Ken vs Chillin - Match 3

Losers Finals
Ken vs Isai - Match 1
Ken vs Isai - Match 2

Grand Finals
Ken vs Azen - Set 1 Match 1
Ken vs Azen - Set 1 Match 2
Ken vs Azen - Set 2 Match 1
Ken vs Azen - Set 2 Match 2
Ken vs Azen - Set 2 Match 3
Ken vs Azen - Set 2 Match 4

2005

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r4EvVQfCzY[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

Son of Slobodan · Mar 3, 2014

I absolutely love his Marth and I still think he is the true embodiment of the character, even if he's not the best Marth anymore. His timing is amazing and his intent is always good even if he doesn't execute things properly sometimes. He shines at positional pressure and mindgames which I feel are the essence of the character, and he can punish/combo really really hard to enforce that. He also does everything with purpose: When he dash dances, he is actively looking for a response from the player, whether it be a spot dodge, attack or roll, rather than aimlessly doing it like many other Marths. His biggest flaws are his edgeguards (which he has improved alot recently) and his defensive play is pretty abysmal to be honest.

He is an offensive minded player at heart and when he starts getting pressured heavily he sort of crumbles. Again though, this is a partly a flaw with the character and the reason he is so aggressive is so that he can dictate the pace of the match and avoid being put in defensive situations in the first place. Still his poor DI and recovery decisions can cost him really dumb stocks. Marth dittos really amplify poor defensive play because bad DI and missed sweetspots can get you killed you at like 30-40%. Watch him vs PewPewU; even though he outplays PewPewU on the stage most of the time, he loses stocks in really stupid ways while PewPewU manages to recover most of the time.

Anyway Ken definitely has amazing game sense and really understands the character in a way 99.9% of Marth players don't. M2K and PP's marth are also incredible though and they all play the character differently. That's one of the best aspects of this game I feel, where people can truly express themselves and play the same character in different but equally effective ways.

Signia · Mar 6, 2014

Son of Slobodan said:
He also does everything with purpose

I can't understand why players do things for no reason, and I can't believe this isn't the norm in the Melee community. It sure would make reading mid-level players easier, as oddly enough I get more reads on players that are way better than me. I would think that the path of improvement would be to do everything with purpose and gradually get faster and faster, but instead a lot of players just learn to be fast first and think later.

itsbme · Mar 7, 2014

I agree with what Son of Slobodan said, Ken really seems to embody how Marth should be played. I always have fun watching Ken play, probably because he plays in a way no one else does. He has a certain rhythm to his movements, almost like a dance.

The one thing that stands out to me about Ken is that he really adapts well. Recently he played Axe in a set; the first match he got wrecked by Axe, who's known for doing that to Marth players. But the second match Ken was on the verge of winning. Same thing when he played S2J, first match he got like 3 stocked, but the next matches he was actually outplaying him a lot.

I really think if Ken can spend the time to make his Marth game as good as he can in all the match ups, he'd be a legitimate threat for top 10 at every tournament. I mean a year ago, Ken was losing to random people. Now he's taking games off the likes of PewPewU and MacD.

Something to get off my chest now. I've seen a lot of comments about Ken basically being washed up, not relavent. I'm half wanting Ken to do well just to shut people up, so maybe they realize they don't know everything and would learn to not blow off the past as some obsolete thing.

Realm_Knight · Mar 8, 2014

itsbme said:
I started this topic because I think his Marth is really unique. I wanted to discuss the things considered to be his strong points, and also try to point out his weak points.

As most know, Ken was once considered the best player back in the early days of melee, before retiring in 2007. He came back in late 2012, and he wasn't the unstoppable force he was in 2005. All those years of rust had taken it's toll it seems, and the game really did change in 5 years. But ever since KoC3, Ken has become pretty active and has really improved his Marth game.

First, what an aggressive Marth! Most modern Marth's opt to dash dance camp and wavedash in and out of shield, poking and waiting, ect. Ken, on the other hand, gets in your face. It isn't mindless aggression though. He seems to maintain a certain space and does actions at a given time to keep himself safe, but at the same time he's able to act on a lot of openings you may give him.

Second, "THAT WAS A TIPPER, THAT WAS A TIPPER!". Ken really loves his forward smash. He ends a lot of players stocks landing it, and I think of any active player, he probably is the best at landing the tipper. His ability to gauge landing it is pretty frightening, and if you're in contest against him, you better be wary of it. Although he probably needs to refine its use (see Ken vs S2J getting kneed in the face, ouch...), it's one of Ken's options that makes him a legitimate threat to any player.

He often opts to to use foward-b as well. From what i've seen, he's toning down its use a bit, but he still goes for it often. One problem is against the likes of Samus, he'll do it just to eat a crouch-canceled down-smash. Also, he seems to have a bad habit of doing the full dance even when it's not going to be any benefit, like if you roll behind him.

One thing of course he's good at is his dashing game. What I like about it is that Ken seems to understand how to space Marth with it, like for example, he knows to dash way->wavedash->dash away in certain moments to gain proper space so when he decides to dash towards, he doesn't run into your attacks. I know it doesn't sound special, but if you watch matches of high level players, even they sometimes neglect that concept and run right into random smashes. Now i'm not saying only Ken is good at it, but I think it's something he understands that mainly the top players of today take into account, or at least are able to apply it effectively.

Now the negatives. A thing I heard in commentary I find to be true is that fast characters give Ken problems. Sometimes it seems like he gets pinned down, and the likes of Fox and Falcon can poor on the damage really fast on him. Ken almost seems like a glass cannon sometimes.

Now i'm not an expert on DI, so I won't touch that. He's DI seems okay to me though.

All in all I like Ken's return. Sure he's not number one, but I enjoy seeing his playstyle, and I think his strategies are something to consider for your own Marth.

I don't claim the above to be fact, in all honesty i'm not a ranked player, just some guy who plays casually and made videos once upon a time. They're just my observations, so I would be glad to have anyone give their opinions, and correct anything I have said.

I take a lot of inspiration from kens marth.

DJ _ICE · Mar 8, 2014

It would be cool to have Dr Peepee or Umbreon to make a large analysis of Ken's overall play. It so interesting, so janky and somehow it really works

La_Popo · Mar 10, 2014

I really like watching Ken's Marth. It's not always the cleanest, but it really does show the level of mind games Ken has in his arsenal.

itsbme · Mar 11, 2014

I think Ken's main objective seems to be focusing his move choices on what's likely to put you in the worst position so he'll either get damage on you directly, or he'll at least keep you at bay. But a lot of his move choices also seem based around what gives him the most flexiblity so he can respond appropriately and keep you from getting away and getting openings on him. I think his success with Marth comes from Ken minimizing missed opportunities to punish openings.

I would relate what Ken does to what a martial artist might do. Say you're walking down the street, and someone attacks you, but instead of running away, you stand your ground, but you don't block the assault, you guide the striking limb away, and simultaneously you strike back. So you killed two birds with one stone. You used the same moment to defend to also attack. Sure you could stand toe to toe, but your attacker is free to block you, and then you're hoping they get tired before you and that they give you an opening, and then you're blocking too, and hoping you can endure the strikes. Ken is a lot like this. He attacks you, but in a way so if you try to attack or defend, he can counter attack. For example, Ken is known to dash into down tilt. A typical response is to shield, then roll. Ken has the option to dash almost immediately after his attack, so in the process of your roll, Ken isn't that limited by his dash as much as he would be if say he tried to short hop n-air your shield. So he's able to act. Go watch matches of Ken and see how many times he gets away with dashing through people's shield and catching them after rolling.

When Ken attacks you, like with a n-air, it's for the purpose of putting himself into position so if his opponent is doing something, he avoids getting hit but at the same time he's not missing an opportunity to strike their exposed hitboxes, but if they evade it, he's minimizing the lag he's stuck in, and at the same time depending on what the other player does, he decreases the window they have to escape or to retaliate. Enough times to note, often attempts to hit Ken result in him dashing out of the way and back into range for a grab. I would again relate that to how Mike Tyson fought in his prime. He would duck around the other boxers' punches but be in a proper stance and in range to land his own.

Basically, Ken isn't wasting time dragging out the match. He isn't trying to endure you, he's coming after you. He's attacking you and approaching you aggressively so much that you're forced to react that much more. That's more chances that you're going to make a choice that leaves you vulnerable enough for Ken to finish you off.

TheCrimsonBlur · Mar 11, 2014

Though many Marths are functionally better, I think Ken has developed the best style to take advantage of Marth's greatest strengths.

Aspiring players can learn a lot from him.

DJ _ICE · Mar 11, 2014

TheCrimsonBlur said:
Though many Marths are functionally better, I think Ken has developed the best style to take advantage of Marth's greatest strengths.

Aspiring players can learn a lot from him.

Definitely a result of those years of experience and constantly giving it all in tournament. I'd love to play him in friendlies.

By the way, how's Ken training you going, Blur?

TheCrimsonBlur · Mar 12, 2014

DJ _ICE said:
Definitely a result of those years of experience and constantly giving it all in tournament. I'd love to play him in friendlies.

By the way, how's Ken training you going, Blur?

Good.

With the MLG & EVO announcements, I'm going to be taking things even more seriously.

DJ _ICE · Mar 12, 2014

Don't disappoint us, young Blur

Signia · Mar 14, 2014

itsbme said:
I think his success with Marth comes from Ken minimizing missed opportunities to punish openings.

He attacks you, but in a way so if you try to attack or defend, he can counter attack. For example, Ken is known to dash into down tilt. A typical response is to shield, then roll. Ken has the option to dash almost immediately after his attack, so in the process of your roll, Ken isn't that limited by his dash as much as he would be if say he tried to short hop n-air your shield. So he's able to act. Go watch matches of Ken and see how many times he gets away with dashing through people's shield and catching them after rolling.

When Ken attacks you, like with a n-air, it's for the purpose of putting himself into position so if his opponent is doing something, he avoids getting hit but at the same time he's not missing an opportunity to strike their exposed hitboxes, but if they evade it, he's minimizing the lag he's stuck in, and at the same time depending on what the other player does, he decreases the window they have to escape or to retaliate. Enough times to note, often attempts to hit Ken result in him dashing out of the way and back into range for a grab.

Basically, Ken isn't wasting time dragging out the match. He isn't trying to endure you, he's coming after you. He's attacking you and approaching you aggressively so much that you're forced to react that much more. That's more chances that you're going to make a choice that leaves you vulnerable enough for Ken to finish you off.

Isn't this what everyone tries to do? Attack from a safe position where you have options, then choose between making a read or waiting for a whiff and punishing? That's fighting game fundamentals 101. Though maybe Ken has been heavily influenced from other fighting games he's been playing over the years, and applying the fundamentals to Melee.

Sleepy · Mar 14, 2014

I remember the OP from youtube, scrolling through his videos to see Ken in action.

Regardless, I think the OP is mostly right in terms of what we all like about smash. A player who is not only determined to win, but also does so in a vicious and dissecting fashion. When Ken used to play in the old days, we would all watch him, trying to emulate him. I remember after m2k picked up the character and showed what he could do, a lot of us felt that same way. Marth is a character who plays with grace and style, while maintaining a top tier status, he still is vulnerable as a character to heavy punishment and recovery. Ken basically kept a high competitive level for a long period of time, in which there weren't any other Marths (outside of Taj) who could really showcase the character's ability.

So yeah, to agree with the OP. I feel that Ken as a player does have room for growth still, so idolizing him is still a good idea. I'd caution those who do it though, because the style is unique, and emulating someone who has been playing for years can be difficult. There are a lot of things that even the trained eye does not notice easily with what Ken does. Although he's not at the top of his game is besides the point.

Also to respond to Signia, I feel as though while that is true, Ken was one of the best at this for a long period of the time. The players of old did not have the knowledge of hitboxes/framedata of the present. The metagame has evolved, but he was the most sucessful at this for many years. There is little in the way of results denying that.

I think in a way Ken is what makes melee fun to play, just as Isai did. Seeing people who have borrowed some characteristics of aggressive play, like Mango makes me like the game. I mean, nowadays the marth meta, seems more methodical and punishment based, but seeing how Ken has returned, maybe we'll receive a breath of fresh air.

Signia · Mar 14, 2014

Sleepy said:
I think in a way Ken is what makes melee fun to play, just as Isai did. Seeing people who have borrowed some characteristics of aggressive play, like Mango makes me like the game. I mean, nowadays the marth meta, seems more methodical and punishment based, but seeing how Ken has returned, maybe we'll receive a breath of fresh air.

Nobody's denying how what he did in the past worked in the past, but what about now?

From 3 weeks ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlCFYKZFGzI

Ken does stupid **** like full dancing blade strings on grounded, poorly spaced rising nair approaches, and random fsmashes all game and gets punished to hell for it. Ken's good and all, but yall need to get off his ****.

But you shouldn't worship any player. All of them can and have been beaten, you just need to figure out how. At least, that's the mindset you should have.

Sleepy · Mar 14, 2014

Signia said:
Nobody's denying how what he did in the past worked in the past, but what about now?

From 3 weeks ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlCFYKZFGzI

Ken does stupid **** like full dancing blade strings on grounded, poorly spaced rising nair approaches, and random fsmashes all game and gets punished to hell for it. Ken's good and all, but yall need to get off his ****.

But you shouldn't worship any player. All of them can and have been beaten, you just need to figure out how. At least, that's the mindset you should have.

No one contradicts that. What's wrong with looking at a player's play, and admiring it? Everyone does have dirty laundry and I explicitly said in my post that they did not have the knowledge at their disposal we do now. I didn't think I had to extrapolate into why we need to not blindly emulate Ken. It's like anything in melee, or anything else, take what you think is valuable, incorporate into your game what is necessary and discard what isn't.

There is no shame in losing to S2J. Ken obviously is worse than S2J. No one is johning for Ken.

Maybe some players place him on a pedastool, but in reality there will always be players like that. I don't think though that you're gonna change that. Yes we do have the info now, but I dare say not a lot of people actually sort through the vast amount of exact data we have in melee and try to find solutions. They just wait for M2K, Mango, PP, and others to figure it out for them.

itsbme · Mar 15, 2014

The best Ken was Evo 2007 Ken. Go on youtube and watch those sets. What a beast he was in his prime.

Ken's weird though. Some sets he plays kinda okay but his DI will blow, then other times he's doing Japanese DI and playing like he's best in the world. Also the other poster has a point. I wish ken would watch those randy f smashes and full dances.

As for what Ken did back then and how it works now, I guess going close matches with westballz, MacD, pewpewu, Darrell, ect speaks for itself. Still does better against good players than a lot could manage.

Justkallmekai · Mar 15, 2014

I notice that Ken uses sword dance a lot I do to, but when I watch other Marth's they hardly sword dance, they only sword dance for recovery. I like the sword dances.

Signia · Mar 17, 2014

Justkallmekai said:
I notice that Ken uses sword dance a lot I do to, but when I watch other Marth's they hardly sword dance, they only sword dance for recovery. I like the sword dances.

I like using sword dance too but there are definitely a lot of objectively wrong times to do them. The move just awful against anything that isn't SH height in the air. I think your opponent can always crouch cancel the first hit, even they're in lag, if they're on the ground and then avoid the other hits and punish?

Justkallmekai · Mar 17, 2014

Signia said:
I like using sword dance too but there are definitely a lot of objectively wrong times to do them. The move just awful against anything that isn't SH height in the air. I think your opponent can always crouch cancel the first hit, even they're in lag, if they're on the ground and then avoid the other hits and punish?

The does have a lot of lag on it, they can crouch cancel it to, but for some reason i like to start the sword dance in the air. Usually I do the down sword dance I guess you call it.

Signia · Mar 17, 2014

Justkallmekai said:
The does have a lot of lag on it, they can crouch cancel it to, but for some reason i like to start the sword dance in the air. Usually I do the down sword dance I guess you call it.

I find it usable as a kill move against fastfallers at about 100% (the way ken often uses it) and I also use it to stop short hop approaches, doing just the first three, with the third one being up, so it starts a tech chase or combo.

If you start from the air, you pop yourself up and keep your side momentum, while the first hit actually pulls them toward you in the opposite direction. There's no down attack for the second one, too, so you have to be really close to ground for it to hit.

Air-to-Air just won't work as the first hit will put them behind you, and will rarely, if ever, combo into the third hits as you start falling but they either get popped up or are hit slightly away.

Jumping past them and reverse-side-B from the air might work. Best you can hope for if they shield is a shield-poke though or to get them on the delayed string mixup, though.

The down B third hit does break crouch cancelling since it is a meteor, but it is the smallest hitbox. Maybe use it if you can make it to the third hit? You're more likely to get CC'd and punished before that though. I mean it's not like they have to predict that you're going to use a side-B, they should be crouch cancelling all the time in the matchup anyway.

I'd be interested to hear where doing what you do actually works.

Justkallmekai · Mar 17, 2014

Signia said:
I find it usable as a kill move against fastfallers at about 100% (the way ken often uses it) and I also use it to stop short hop approaches, doing just the first three, with the third one being up, so it starts a tech chase or combo.

If you start from the air, you pop yourself up and keep your side momentum, while the first hit actually pulls them toward you in the opposite direction. There's no down attack for the second one, too, so you have to be really close to ground for it to hit.

Air-to-Air just won't work as the first hit will put them behind you, and will rarely, if ever, combo into the third hits as you start falling but they either get popped up or are hit slightly away.

Jumping past them and reverse-side-B from the air might work. Best you can hope for if they shield is a shield-poke though or to get them on the delayed string mixup, though.

The down B third hit does break crouch cancelling since it is a meteor, but it is the smallest hitbox. Maybe use it if you can make it to the third hit? You're more likely to get CC'd and punished before that though. I mean it's not like they have to predict that you're going to use a side-B, they should be crouch cancelling all the time in the matchup anyway.

I'd be interested to hear where doing what you do actually works.

I usually sword dance in the cause it my friend tries to approach me with a knee (Which happens all the time) I'll hit him instead of me losing a stock, but if he doesn't go for the knee I usually get punished for it.

Magnawolf · Mar 21, 2014

Ken's recovery is kinda bad, he often uses his second jump waaaaaaaay too early.

Master of recovery is pewpewu

Justkallmekai · Mar 22, 2014

Magnawolf said:
Ken's recovery is kinda bad, he often uses his second jump waaaaaaaay too early.

Master of recovery is pewpewu

Pewpewu has amazing recovery

DJ _ICE · Mar 22, 2014

Magnawolf said:
Ken's recovery is kinda bad, he often uses his second jump waaaaaaaay too early.

Master of recovery is pewpewu

Man if he knew how to sweetspot during KoC3 he'd do a lot better

itsbme · Mar 31, 2014

So yesterday Ken was on stream during a tournie. He did good, but there are some things he needs to improve on I think. One thing is he seems to have trouble finishing someone off when they're off stage compared to modern players, which against the likes of Westballz Falcon, led to him going from having Westballz in a position were taking a stock wouldn've been likely, to Ken losing his stock quite brutally.

The biggest thing in my mind though is his fsmashes and how vulnerable they left him during this tournament. Watch a set from 2005, and Ken doesn't seem to pay too much for mistakes, he had room for error to try a fsmash whenever, but now good players just do too much damage for every little error Ken makes. But still, it's fun to have Ken back and I hope he strives to get better.

On another note, it seemed like during the stream a lot of people in chat were against Ken, like they wanted him to fail and were saying he lacked good fundamentals, ect. It was pretty funny though watching the chat go dead quiet when Ken started wrecking Connor though.

If you want to see his streamed matches, thanks to SleepyK you can.

Ken vs. Westballz
Ken vs. Connor
Ken vs. Fiction
Ken vs. HugS

What does everyone else think? I would like to hear everyone's opinions and correct anything I have said that.

Tetheta · Apr 2, 2014

Thanks for the link to the videos, I'm basically a new player (had no idea there was a competitive scene) and for me Ken is really inspiring and I love watching him play. He's definitely not the best anymore but since I was introduced to the scene through Team Liquid (who I follow for Starcraft) and I've always Marth in smash games he's the one I've paid most attention to and the reason I decided to try and actually get to a decent level in the game.

Onomanic · Apr 4, 2014

Why was Ken vs Larry off stream!? also, hello Tetheta, and welcome to the smash community! If you haven't already, you should check out the Facebook group for your local scene, which you can find here. http://smashboards.com/threads/facebook-groups-links.325058/ Get out there and get to tournaments! it's a bunch of fun and I wish you the best of luck!

Tetheta · Apr 4, 2014

Thanks for the welcome, I don't have much time to get off campus (Engineering major) but I did join the facebook groups for my area a bit ago, I'll have to see if I can attend one sometime, though at the moment I'll get wrecked, can't even beat lvl 9 fox/falco reliably haha.

itsbme · Apr 17, 2014

So, Ken went to Super Smash Sundays this past Sunday, and he managed to get 7th out of 84 players. He also beat Lucky! (which of course, was not recorded..) He also got 5th in teams with A Rookie. Here's his matches if anyone is curious.
Ken

Ken

Clebus · Apr 18, 2014

I want ken to do so well =(((

itsbme · May 6, 2014

Super Smash Sunday 18 happened not too long ago, and Ken got 7th again! Here's his matches. He's getting faster and his combo game is still great.

Teams
SFAT

& Jace

vs. Ken

& A Rookie

Winner's Quarters
DEHF

& Westballz

vs. Ken

& A Rookie

Loser's Quarters

Singles
Ken

Pools
Ken

Pools
Ken

Pools
Ken

Winner's Quarters

DJ _ICE · May 13, 2014

Ken surprisingly lost to Jace last SSS, do you guys think its a fluke? Is Jace really that good?

Clebus · May 13, 2014

Fluke lolololol
jace had a pretty easy bracket

itsbme · May 14, 2014

DJ _ICE said:
Ken surprisingly lost to Jace last SSS, do you guys think its a fluke? Is Jace really that good?

Besides beating Ken, Jace also beat Okami, DEHF, ect. The only ones I know that beat him at all were HugS and Fly Amanita. Definantly not a fluke that Ken lost. Jace earned his win.

Anyway, here's Ken at SSS 19:

Ken

vs DendyPretendy

[URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxHGP3qDLhk']Ken

vs Fiction

[/URL]
[URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y4q9wzTC4'][URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y4q9wzTC4'][URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6WEdDLCIA']Ken

vs Squid

[/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y4q9wzTC4'][URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y4q9wzTC4'][URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y4q9wzTC4'][URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y4q9wzTC4'][URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz3vC-4_g7g']Ken

vs Jace

[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

itsbme · May 19, 2014

So, I decided to make this a discussion / video archive as well instead of making another seperate topic. I'll keep working on it when I can. I don't know if it'll be sticky worthy but that'd be cool.

Teczer0 · May 21, 2014

I'm not quite, sure whats up with the bug that made your post spit out all those bbcode texts.

I *think* it might be related to how many links you tried to put, try removing some links for the time being (post it elsewhere like after this post for easy copy paste) and see if that helps resolves it

itsbme · May 21, 2014

When I try to edit that post it gives me a gateway error. Any of my other posts I can edit fine. I'll work on making another thread I guess.
Thanks!

Please Lock Topic

Game on!

Smash Cadet

Smash Lord

Game on!

Smash Rookie

Smash Apprentice

Smash Rookie

Game on!

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Game on!

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Game on!

Smash Cadet

Heaven Piercer

Smash Cadet

Game on!

Smash Journeyman

Game on!

Smash Apprentice

Smash Journeyman

Game on!

Game on!

Research Assistant

Game on!

Information

Network