Please Consider: Ledge Grab Limit for Project M

[Bakasama]

Uh. You got impatient that they were stalling, so you lose. That's entirely your fault. And previous to that, if you're down a stock, that's also you're fault. In every Smash game there hasn't been a pre-programmed edge limit because there are ways to deal with edge hoggers, and even M2K has had smooth players snatch the ledge from him mid-plank (even in melee). Outside of that, many characters (especially in P:M) have safe options to punish plankers, but even outside of that, it's still your fault for being impatient.

They start planking, you stand still. You're a stock down? If they're good enough to gimp you while giving you center-stage, you would've lost anyway.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I'll sum up why this thread is not realy relevant to PM, but it is to brawl, with a few sentences or so: Think about how many timeouts you've had in PM so far, and how they are down to the each time.
We don't really need a LGL in PM because people lose too fast for it to be relevant LOL

 

[Phaiyte]

Putting a limit on ledge grabs of any kind will throw off the whole game. Applying forced mechanics like that will only ruin any kind of defensive gameplay and will ruin any character that even /kind of/ relies on defense. Most importantly, it would make Ganon even further retain his reputation as the worst character in the game. I sincerely hope that no one's actually ok with that.

 

[gnosis]

Arguments about 'just get good' have no appeal to me whatsoever. Degenerate gameplay is degenerate gameplay, this isn't some game that's completely untouchable and all that's left to do is cross your fingers and hope it turns out good, if it could be improved then it should be.

And that's the thing, I think planking is unexplored. I don't know that it's really an issue, but I expect it could be if more people committed to it and explored it. Maybe enough counters would be found, maybe not, but I think people losing too fast, not timing out, not planking, etc. could potentially just be because they're impatient scrubs. All too often I see someone on a ledge with a lead, and the other person is in a terrible situation trying to get them off, then they just jump up and start fighting on fair grounds again (usually leading to an unfavorable trade/getting combo'd/etc.).

So, if it's explored more, and if it becomes an issue, I think invincibility decay could be a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with it.

Tethers are a good example of how planking could become degenerate and limits could be reasonable, as they already have that regrab limit in one form (Ike is another example - there's things certain characters can do against Aether spam, but it's unforgiving stuff and the strategy invalidates most of the game).

 

[9bit]

Planking and ledge-grabbing are worse in Brawl because Brawl is a more defensive game.

I'm not worried about it in PM because of the nature of the game, which is like Melee, and this hasn't become a huge problem in Melee after all this time. I'm confident that if it somehow becomes a huge problem the developers will fix it.

 

[foxygrandpa]

You do realize you can just take the edge from the opponent, right?
Can you imagine edgeguarding spacies without using ledge invincibility constantly?
Im a sheik player, my strategy is based around the edge for the most part. This idea doesnt really make any sense, it would change the dynamic of the game too much.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Planking and ledge-grabbing are worse in Brawl because Brawl is a more defensive game.

I'm not worried about it in PM because of the nature of the game, which is like Melee, and this hasn't become a huge problem in Melee after all this time. I'm confident that if it somehow becomes a huge problem the developers will fix it.

All of this. PM is too fast and has too many ways to punish excessive camping for this to be a relevant problem, or a problem at all.

 

[Planet Piss]

A grab limit would force the edgeguardian into understanding that his opponent must go up on the stage after x amount of re-grabs. The ability to double jump repeatedly under or near the ledge is neither un-punishable or ultimately advantageous to the player on the ledge due to the concept of positional advantage, and this concept is only violated by a few characters in PM (who also have their exploits in other areas). To add, the opportunity to re-grab the ledge provides a necessary layer of mix-ups for the player on the ledge, because as I stated before, the edgeguardian knows what the recoverer's next option must be--provided that there is a constant re-grab limit.

With many characters, pressure from the stage onto the ledge-region involves one or two strategies which eliminate multiple options. This is possible due to positional advantage. Azen fsmashes cover absolutely everything most characters can do, provided that the recoverer is not invincible, which in itself is only temporary. What's more is that some characters, such as DK whom I play, has an absolutely atrocious WL onto the stage given his body proportions, and has to rely on mix-ups to recover against players who know his limitations. Some characters have magnificent options from the ledge, such as Falcon and Roy, but their ability to hide under the stage and WL on in time for an invincible roll in no way compensates for their below-average revocery strength(s).

Adding a ledge regrab limit oversimplifies edgeguarding, and further disadvantages an already disadvantaged player.

 

[Fortress]

What is this, Brawl? What does Sheik have without her ledgeguarding?

 

[9bit]

I mean like, are we talking besides the grab game, tech chases, easy combos, needles, invincible up-B, and f-air?

 

[Fortress]

I mean like, are we talking besides the grab game, tech chases, easy combos, needles, invincible up-B, and f-air?

Shhh.

 

[Terotrous]

I originally agreed that it was unnecessary, but after watching this I'm starting to reconsider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB1Zs-nqFGY

Even if this is beatable it's so massively lame that I think it's probably not something you want in the game.

 

[MagnesD3]

The ledge is still dangerous if the opponent is willing to risk being on the ledge then its your job to risk by punishing the action. Imo this whole ledge grab limit is only necessary for the tethers which is already in place, there should be no ledge grab limit other than that....

On the whole ledge grab limits are silly and are only wanted due to people being bad at punishing...

 

[Terotrous]

I dunno, did you watch the video above? Granted, part of the problem is that the risk reward is insanely tilted towards Kirby there (if he hits you, you lose a whole stock, virtually guaranteed), so no one wants to approach and take a risk.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Laz's best option there was probably SH -> AGT Bomb Drop when Chu's invincibility ran out. It did work once, not sure why he didn't do it again. Maybe he knows something I don't.

 

[Spralwers]

Down tilt? Decent range, Kirby's not invincible the whole time, and it does have a spike hitbox on it (or a meteor, can't remember).

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I didn't see enough of that either.

 

[The_NZA]

I dunno, did you watch the video above? Granted, part of the problem is that the risk reward is insanely tilted towards Kirby there (if he hits you, you lose a whole stock, virtually guaranteed), so no one wants to approach and take a risk.

Explain to me why Laz didn't grab a bomb, jump over the edge, and aerial glide toss it down? If kirby tries to grab invincibility, then Laz could have dropped the bomb, regrabbed and reaerial glide tossed it down. He had the counterplay available to him, He just didn't use it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What I want to see: A Ness using PK Thunder on Chu while he tries ledge shenanigans. It might not work but it would be funny.

 

[Terotrous]

Explain to me why Laz didn't grab a bomb, jump over the edge, and aerial glide toss it down? If kirby tries to grab invincibility, then Laz could have dropped the bomb, regrabbed and reaerial glide tossed it down. He had the counterplay available to him, He just didn't use it.

Because he was worried the moment he got close, Chu would hop up, inhale, and Kirbycide. And there's no question that he would have. Check out this set for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8z0B2ij50&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw

Part of the problem may be that Inhale seems to have extremely good priority now and beats most everything you throw at it, making it almost always a horrible idea to approach Kirby if he's anywhere near the ledge. If he was onstage, you could chuck projectiles at him, but on the ledge he's quite safe.

 

[roman5hero]

I main Kirby and my training partner has gotten amazing at countering that stuff. like the people that play chu just don't vs Kirby much. it is actually really hard to do the things chu does to a person who knows what they are doing vs Kirby. tons of dtilts hit Kirby or back airs. just be patient and space well not to hard really

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Because he was worried the moment he got close, Chu would hop up, inhale, and Kirbycide. And there's no question that he would have.

Spaced better it would have work. Inhale doesn't work if you're above Kirby and Laz had a way of sending a hitbox down with very little risk to himself (AGT bomb drop or toss.) If you wait out the invincibility it works. Like RomanHero said, it was MU inexperience.

 

[The_NZA]

Because he was worried the moment he got close, Chu would hop up, inhale, and Kirbycide. And there's no question that he would have. Check out this set for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8z0B2ij50&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw

Part of the problem may be that Inhale seems to have extremely good priority now and beats most everything you throw at it, making it almost always a horrible idea to approach Kirby if he's anywhere near the ledge. If he was onstage, you could chuck projectiles at him, but on the ledge he's quite safe.

I really don't think you realize how high Link can go using smart Glide tosses. He can literally double jump, and throw the bomb down while glide tossing his momentum back towards the center of the stage. It's ridiculously safe.

 

[Terotrous]

I really don't think you realize how high Link can go using smart Glide tosses. He can literally double jump, and throw the bomb down while glide tossing his momentum back towards the center of the stage. It's ridiculously safe.

I don't think you realize how good Chu is at kicking you when you're down there and stuffing your recovery. Even if he doesn't make it back, he had a stock lead, so he doesn't have to.

 

[Fortress]

Are we really arguing about a ledge grab limit in the PM forums? Brawl forums are the other way.

 

[Terotrous]

Are we really arguing about a ledge grab limit in the PM forums? Brawl forums are the other way.

Based on Chu's matches, it seems fairly clear that Kirbycide + no ledge grab limit is a problem. It's possible that simply fixing Kirbycide might make the ledge grab limit no longer necessary.

 

[roman5hero]

if you come from above and slightly in front nothing Kirby has can hit you except nair and that has tiny range. people at sax really just need to get better at the Kirby mu.

 

[Terotrous]

if you come from above and slightly in front nothing Kirby has can hit you except nair and that has tiny range. people at sax really just need to get better at the Kirby mu.

Or jump + inhale?

I don't know, I'm seeing people trying a lot of different things and still getting scooped over and over. Besides, even if it does have a few valid counters, the reward you get from that move is completely at odds with pretty much the entire rest of the game. How many other moves are there in the game that kill at 0%, start up fast, have some armor, and can't be punished?

 

[roman5hero]

don't mash out and take Kirby with you. and no if you come from above jump inhale can't hit . and missing an inhale is a free smash attack. that thing has a ton of end lag.

 

[Droß]

Based on Chu's matches, it seems fairly clear that Kirbycide + no ledge grab limit is a problem. It's possible that simply fixing Kirbycide might make the ledge grab limit no longer necessary.

It's generally a bad idea to base the balance of an entire game around the antics of one player without giving other players a chance to develop counter-strategies against whatever techniques are succeeding at the moment. Also, balance whines at this point pretty much amount to scrub excuses; there is no true meta as of yet, and the game should be largely left alone until a meta settles in.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

You can't feasibly ledge ***** or scrooge in this game.
That's that. DIPPPPPPP

 

[Terotrous]

It's generally a bad idea to base the balance of an entire game around the antics of one player without giving other players a chance to develop counter-strategies against whatever techniques are succeeding at the moment. Also, balance whines at this point pretty much amount to scrub excuses; there is no true meta as of yet, and the game should be largely left alone until a meta settles in.

We'll see, but to be honest I could see this strategy being incredibly broken against characters who lack strong projectiles (and most of those characters have a lot of problems as it is).

 

[MechWarriorNY]

So, go to the lab and figure out counter-measures rather than debate if a rule against it is need. PM has tools available to invalidate that **** lol,
adapt.

 

[Droß]

We'll see, but to be honest I could see this strategy being incredibly broken against characters who lack strong projectiles (and most of those characters have a lot of problems as it is).

Just because you "could" see it as broken doesn't mean it's broken. I could see the first smash bros game as having better graphics than its successors; does that make my point correct? At the bare minimum at least take statistics over several hundred instances where this situation happens and note the outcome for each, then base a conclusion around your findings versus your hypothesis.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

Erm............................... I dunno about this. I'm kinda leaning on the "Hell no" side of this discussion.

 

[Terotrous]

Just because you "could" see it as broken doesn't mean it's broken. I could see the first smash bros game as having better graphics than its successors; does that make my point correct? At the bare minimum at least take statistics over several hundred instances where this situation happens and note the outcome for each, then base a conclusion around your findings versus your hypothesis.

That's what I'm saying. This seems super strong, so don't be surprised if you end up seeing more of it.

 

[Droß]

That's what I'm saying. This seems super strong, so don't be surprised if you end up seeing more of it.

That means inevitable development of counterplay over time, which will balance the tactic out. Now, if counterplay measures end up being woefully ineffective and remain that way for some time (6 months to a year of frequent use), then it's worth examining whether or not said tactic is inherently unfair and whether changes need to be made to the game to level the playing field.

 

[trash?]

this isn't brawl or melee, we don't have to deal with rulesets in order to get around game issues

if it's a big enough deal to need this rule, then the next patch balances it to not need it. otherwise, chu's just gimmickin', neutral b is unsafe on whiff, getgud

 

[roman5hero]

if you think something is broken then go win some major using that thing, then discussion on if it is to good or needs fixing will begin

 

[Terotrous]

if you think something is broken then go win some major using that thing, then discussion on if it is to good or needs fixing will begin

I don't need to do it myself, Chu is already trying to do it. He's now won S@X twice in a row with it, I'm curious to see if it will win a third time.