PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[PKNintendo]

PK, would it be ok if you put matchups with very little discussion on an undecided spot (DDD, Wario, Snake, don't know if they're more) for now? I don't think we can give accurate numbers if we just put them on a spot due to a few members. I also disagree with Wario being bad (due to frame data and range).

I'll give my thoughts on Ganon in a while.

Im sorry but frame data and range are useless.
Come a bit closer.

A while ago, I was 99% sure Ness went even with Wario. But I played some really good Wario's and watched some of the best (DMG comes to mind) and I just don't feel Ness having the advantage possible.

I'll take them out, but it's not going to change much for Wario. Possibly D3 and Snake IDK about them.

 

[ColinJF]

Im sorry but frame data and range are useless.

...what?

By the way, I'd rather we didn't use mmac's chart since it endorses the SBR tier list.

 

[thesage]

...what?

By the way, I'd rather we didn't use mmac's chart since it endorses the SBR tier list.

Does it really matter?

Also, I'll upload a chart with my personal feelings on the matchups from my experience. This will not be Ness' actual matchups, just how my own playstyle works against characters (ie for the Ness ditto I'm putting a heavy green).

 

[ColinJF]

The match up chart isn't really important, no.

Range is pretty important though.

 

[Mmac]

By the way, I'd rather we didn't use mmac's chart since it endorses the SBR tier list.

I am hurt

I do not support the Tier List at all. It was how I did all my charts, and it was just how I ended up with it...

 

[PKNintendo]

...what?

By the way, I'd rather we didn't use mmac's chart since it endorses the SBR tier list.

Sorry, it's not useless but I mean...
It's not the only thing when considering the matchup.

 

[thesage]

Put Ganon at 55-45. In short, don't fall for his tricks and spam fair intelligently (space it well).

Can we go over Sheik? Was is she at a disadvantage for Ness again?

 

[Earthbound Zero]

I feel Ganon is still at 60:40 but, whatever.

I didn't even know the Shiek matchup was that bad...

 

[Brinzy]

Sheik kicks Ness's little rear back to Onett. Ftilt lock alone racks up a bit too much damage on Ness as it stands. It starts at about 25-30% and ends whenever Ness is about to get out and Sheik does something else to end it. Of course, the Sheik could screw up and try to use it fresh at 50% or whatever and it won't really lock Ness, but if it does lock him, it can end in utilt, Usmash, nair, and a few other things. This alone accounts for a lot of problems for Ness.

Ness will have to approach Sheik. The needles can't be reliably stopped and PK Thunder can't reliably bring her to Ness. If Sheik decides to approach... well, it doesn't matter much because Sheik has a good approach game, what with her dash attack, her DACUS and other tricks, needles, aerial mobility, etc. Ness can defend well with fair, though.

Sheik gimps Ness disgustingly. Probably not as bad as Mario does, but it's bad nonetheless. I'm not even including eating PKT or something like that. The needles can easily kill Ness's recovering momentum and force a PKT recovery. She can jump high and fast enough to reach Ness and swat him if she needs to. Speaking of swatting, fair will pretty much always force a PKT2 recovery, even if Ness has his midair jump still. Her tether can be used to reliably edgehog PKT2, so there's not any extreme timing needed to take it out (not that there is in the first place). Ness, on the other hand, has the usual edgeguarding tactics, and there isn't much that Sheik can do to make them less useful.

Ness packs a bit more killing power than Sheik does, but do not let it get to your head that Sheik can't flat out kill Ness reliably. Dsmash, Usmash, nair, fair and bair are good killers that aren't extremely unsafe to use (unlike Fsmash, for example). Watch out for Vanish as well.

60:40 Sheik. At best for Ness, 55:45 Sheik. This isn't an even fight.

 

[_clinton]

Sheik kicks Ness's little rear back to Onett. Ftilt lock alone racks up a bit too much damage on Ness as it stands. It starts at about 25-30% and ends whenever Ness is about to get out and Sheik does something else to end it. Of course, the Sheik could screw up and try to use it fresh at 50% or whatever and it won't really lock Ness, but if it does lock him, it can end in utilt, Usmash, nair, and a few other things. This alone accounts for a lot of problems for Ness.

To be fair its not like Sheik wants to be hit by things like Ness' dair...I mean she isn't Fox style falling but its not like she'll break free without having a little bit of extra damage as well...plus I'm pretty sure Ness' Dair breaks through almost everything Sheik has...

Ness will have to approach Sheik. The needles can't be reliably stopped and PK Thunder can't reliably bring her to Ness. If Sheik decides to approach... well, it doesn't matter much because Sheik has a good approach game, what with her dash attack, her DACUS and other tricks, needles, aerial mobility, etc. Ness can defend well with fair, though.

Needles are more anti ground actually...not anti air...so while they do make Ness come close...it's not that bad...it isn't like what Link and Tink can do with a boomerang (anti air) or bomb (mind games with close range anti ground really) also Ness doesn't mind mid range...what I'm saying is...Ness has to be the one to come close but Sheik has to finish it off...

Sheik gimps Ness disgustingly. Probably not as bad as Mario does, but it's bad nonetheless. I'm not even including eating PKT or something like that. The needles can easily kill Ness's recovering momentum and force a PKT recovery. She can jump high and fast enough to reach Ness and swat him if she needs to. Speaking of swatting, fair will pretty much always force a PKT2 recovery, even if Ness has his midair jump still. Her tether can be used to reliably edgehog PKT2, so there's not any extreme timing needed to take it out (not that there is in the first place). Ness, on the other hand, has the usual edgeguarding tactics, and there isn't much that Sheik can do to make them less useful.

Fun fact about Ness' 2nd jump and air movement...horizontally it actually has more range then Sheik's full horizontal recovery range...so do you think they are even here or what?

Ness packs a bit more killing power than Sheik does, but do not let it get to your head that Sheik can't flat out kill Ness reliably. Dsmash, Usmash, nair, fair and bair are good killers that aren't extremely unsafe to use (unlike Fsmash, for example). Watch out for Vanish as well.

Ness also lives longer then Sheik does by a bit...but I never though Sheik was lacking in kill power anyway...

 

[Brinzy]

To be fair its not like Sheik wants to be hit by things like Ness' dair...I mean she isn't Fox style falling but its not like she'll break free without having a little bit of extra damage as well...plus I'm pretty sure Ness' Dair breaks through almost everything Sheik has...

I don't see why Ness's dair is going to break through all of her moves. They should be trading at least.

She doesn't ever have to take extra damage. Ftilt -> utilt is pretty much a guaranteed combo depending on where Ness is. He's gonna have to nair out of it, which isn't impossible depending on a lot of factors, but isn't enough to negate the lock. Her ftilt is that effective against Ness.

Needles are more anti ground actually...not anti air...so while they do make Ness come close...it's not that bad...it isn't like what Link and Tink can do with a boomerang (anti air) or bomb (mind games with close range anti ground really) also Ness doesn't mind mid range...what I'm saying is...Ness has to be the one to come close but Sheik has to finish it off...

That distance that you give Sheik is enough so that she can pretty much get past anything Ness is trying to do to defend himself. She isn't really lacking in approach at all. The needles do enough to bring Ness close. Even if she's approaching, Ness can't exactly reliably stop her. Fair is about the only thing that'll completely keep her at bay. Anything else will trade. Other aerials can help as well, but that's more or less evading Sheik and hitting her, something that Ness can do to anyone.

Ness can play defensive all he wants, but he can't really guard himself that well against her.

Fun fact about Ness' 2nd jump and air movement...horizontally it actually has more range then Sheik's full horizontal recovery range...so do you think they are even here or what?

There will never be a time where they'll be doing this at the same time. If we're talking about who gets back to the stage more reliably than who, I'm going to say that Sheik does. It's too easy to deal with. If I really, really want to kill a Ness off, I can just wait near the end of his midair jump and aerial him, or I can just throw needles at him. Even if he airdodges at the last minute, he's now going to be airdodging while falling... setting himself up perfectly to have his PKT eaten. He won't grab the ledge, either, because he's airdodging.

A lot of people love to credit his midair jump distance and all, but they miss a huge flaw - it's slow. You can react to where Ness will be with it and punish accordingly. I have no doubt that unless Sheik hits him away from the stage without his midair jump, Ness can reach the stage. However, I doubt his ability to reliably get back to the stage against Sheik because she has the mobility to end up wherever Ness will be, she has a great projectile for screwing up his recovery, and she has a very safe way to edgehog him.

Even if Ness has a better distance than Sheik does, I'm pretty sure Sheik's higher double jump, her Up B, and her tether combined make up a safer recovery than Ness's. It's that punishable.

I'm going to work.

 

[_clinton]

I don't see why Ness's dair is going to break through all of her moves. They should be trading at least.

Ness' Dair happens to have DJed hitboxes for one thing...

She doesn't ever have to take extra damage. Ftilt -> utilt is pretty much a guaranteed combo depending on where Ness is. He's gonna have to nair out of it, which isn't impossible depending on a lot of factors, but isn't enough to negate the lock. Her ftilt is that effective against Ness.

Depending on %, yes it is effective...sort of like Ness' tricks

That distance that you give Sheik is enough so that she can pretty much get past anything Ness is trying to do to defend himself.

How well off is she at running away?

She isn't really lacking in approach at all. The needles do enough to bring Ness close. Even if she's approaching, Ness can't exactly reliably stop her. Fair is about the only thing that'll completely keep her at bay. Anything else will trade. Other aerials can help as well, but that's more or less evading Sheik and hitting her, something that Ness can do to anyone.

Fair is the bomb for the whole "keep away" of course...Nair is still of course the "get off me" attack for when they do get too close IMO...

Going on offense now...Dair is the whole fake out/offense to get behind shield sort of thing...Bair+Uair combo is the whole shield stab thing for the most part that can lead into a dropping Dair if you double jump and Uair at the same time...What I'm saying is...I don't think her shield will enjoy that...

Ness can play defensive all he wants, but he can't really guard himself that well against her.

How is a retreating Fair not a good guard?

There will never be a time where they'll be doing this at the same time.

I never said they would be recovering at the same time...I said Ness' horizontal range is enough to beat Sheik's without using the main recovery move...

If we're talking about who gets back to the stage more reliably than who, I'm going to say that Sheik does. It's too easy to deal with. If I really, really want to kill a Ness off, I can just wait near the end of his midair jump and aerial him, or I can just throw needles at him.

One of my issues with playing as Ness that I've been trying to work on is making full use of my range that I have...what I'm saying is...Ness has a ton of range for his recovery...yet I wonder how much of it actually gets taken advantage of?

Even if he airdodges at the last minute, he's now going to be airdodging while falling... setting himself up perfectly to have his PKT eaten. He won't grab the ledge, either, because he's airdodging.

This is the thing I'm trying to work on...proper use of "thunder drops"...

A lot of people love to credit his midair jump distance and all, but they miss a huge flaw - it's slow. You can react to where Ness will be with it and punish accordingly. I have no doubt that unless Sheik hits him away from the stage without his midair jump, Ness can reach the stage. However, I doubt his ability to reliably get back to the stage against Sheik because she has the mobility to end up wherever Ness will be, she has a great projectile for screwing up his recovery, and she has a very safe way to edgehog him.

The projectile for screwing up his recovery is only great because of the whole come in low and aim high for when dealing with Ness' recovery...
and again about not taking advantage of the whole range thing...That double jump can turn freely without any real issue...I mean looking at Sheik's 2nd jump...the whole thing only covers 3 horizontal and 3 vertical (the 3 vertical is good though) yet looking at Ness' he has 6 horizontal and 3 vertical to work with...and his recovery move offers the same thing for distance (a bit more actually but still)...

Even if Ness has a better distance than Sheik does, I'm pretty sure Sheik's higher double jump, her Up B, and her tether combined make up a safer recovery than Ness's. It's that punishable.

I'm 99.99% positive that they have the same vertical range actually...

and Ness destroys those that have ropes when it comes to recovery...so in this case you really only have to deal with a few things for Sheik in ledgeguarding

I'm going to work.

Have a nice day

 

[Brinzy]

Ness' Dair happens to have DJed hitboxes for one thing...

Really? It must not be that disjointed, because Ness's utilt, Zelda's Usmash, and a few other disjointed attacks always outprioritize Ness's dair. I've overridden his dair with Sheik's uair myself...

Depending on %, yes it is effective...sort of like Ness' tricks

All he has are 2-3 hit combos from a low % and whatever else you guys work on behind the board; so far, I only know of the uair/dair -> PKT2 thing. That's really all he has, and the latter, from what I can tell, isn't 100% reliable, but if you guys say it is, then fine. It's still an extremely small margin.

What other tricks does Ness have that are % dependent? Not counting things like b-throw at a certain %, of course. Anything that's guaranteed for him <<< anything that's guaranteed for Sheik.

Also, why do tricks even matter? Ftilt lock isn't a "trick"; it's a lock.

How well off is she at running away?

Great.

Going on offense now...Dair is the whole fake out/offense to get behind shield sort of thing...Bair+Uair combo is the whole shield stab thing for the most part that can lead into a dropping Dair if you double jump and Uair at the same time...What I'm saying is...I don't think her shield will enjoy that...

Ness hitting Sheik's shield more than twice is not likely to happen. She can just nair him as soon as he touches her shield with anything that isn't fair. Besides, why is being able to jump around and mash aerials an innate advantage for Ness? It isn't.

How is a retreating Fair not a good guard?

Because Sheik can reliably punish this with needles or a dash attack. She's fast. When your best defensive options can be reliably punished based off of reaction, you're in trouble.

I never said they would be recovering at the same time...I said Ness' horizontal range is enough to beat Sheik's without using the main recovery move...

Ok, but why does this matter? In fact, even this is overrated.

You say he moves six blocks horizontally. Ok, so let's say he's trying to grab the ledge and it's... I dunno, five blocks away. When he starts the jump, there's the x-axis.

However, if I'm not mistaken, Ness likes to recover from below. Ness players will do whatever it takes to minimalize PKT use, too. This "six blocks" thing does not matter because either 1) Ness would have to be six blocks and level from the edge to grab it anyway (and this isn't even counting the edgeguarder), or 2) Ness would sacrifice some of his horizontal range in order to grab the ledge with his vertical range. Either way, he's not keeping himself safe AND maximizing this distance while using his midair jump to recover.

It doesn't matter if he can jump farther. Once again, how is this an innate advantage to Ness?

One of my issues with playing as Ness that I've been trying to work on is making full use of my range that I have...what I'm saying is...Ness has a ton of range for his recovery...yet I wonder how much of it actually gets taken advantage of?

Not that much because he can easily be intercepted.

The projectile for screwing up his recovery is only great because of the whole come in low and aim high for when dealing with Ness' recovery...
and again about not taking advantage of the whole range thing...That double jump can turn freely without any real issue...I mean looking at Sheik's 2nd jump...the whole thing only covers 3 horizontal and 3 vertical (the 3 vertical is good though) yet looking at Ness' he has 6 horizontal and 3 vertical to work with...and his recovery move offers the same thing for distance (a bit more actually but still)...

Ok, so he can jump backwards. Yay.

Now seeing this, Sheik should be grabbing the ledge (with her tether if possible) and waiting for Ness. When he comes close, Sheik should slowly stand on the stage, either to 1) force you to die from bouncing off the ledge, or 2) punish your landing lag. It might make him a bit more versatile when recovering (as in moving backwards and forwards), but it has so many issues that I think it's a barely acceptable recovery.

I'm 99.99% positive that they have the same vertical range actually...

and Ness destroys those that have ropes when it comes to recovery...so in this case you really only have to deal with a few things for Sheik in ledgeguarding

Ok, so they jump the same height.

Are you saying that Ness destroys tether recoveries? How? Because he can dair? That's not unique. Because he can use PKT? That's not destroying them. Sheik has the fastest tether recovery in the game. She can grab the ledge, pull herself up, and get off before you can even reliably react to her. What's he going to do? Grab the edge? That's not an advantage to Ness. That's universal. Sheik still has her Up B.

I don't see anything that's special about Ness except for fair and PKT. He's not good against Sheik.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sheik kicks Ness's little rear back to Onett. Ftilt lock alone racks up a bit too much damage on Ness as it stands. It starts at about 25-30% and ends whenever Ness is about to get out and Sheik does something else to end it. Of course, the Sheik could screw up and try to use it fresh at 50% or whatever and it won't really lock Ness, but if it does lock him, it can end in utilt, Usmash, nair, and a few other things. This alone accounts for a lot of problems for Ness.

Ness will have to approach Sheik. The needles can't be reliably stopped and PK Thunder can't reliably bring her to Ness. If Sheik decides to approach... well, it doesn't matter much because Sheik has a good approach game, what with her dash attack, her DACUS and other tricks, needles, aerial mobility, etc. Ness can defend well with fair, though.

Sheik gimps Ness disgustingly. Probably not as bad as Mario does, but it's bad nonetheless. I'm not even including eating PKT or something like that. The needles can easily kill Ness's recovering momentum and force a PKT recovery. She can jump high and fast enough to reach Ness and swat him if she needs to. Speaking of swatting, fair will pretty much always force a PKT2 recovery, even if Ness has his midair jump still. Her tether can be used to reliably edgehog PKT2, so there's not any extreme timing needed to take it out (not that there is in the first place). Ness, on the other hand, has the usual edgeguarding tactics, and there isn't much that Sheik can do to make them less useful.

Ness packs a bit more killing power than Sheik does, but do not let it get to your head that Sheik can't flat out kill Ness reliably. Dsmash, Usmash, nair, fair and bair are good killers that aren't extremely unsafe to use (unlike Fsmash, for example). Watch out for Vanish as well.

60:40 Sheik. At best for Ness, 55:45 Sheik. This isn't an even fight.

This lol.

Sheik isn't favorable, just CP.

 

[_clinton]

Really? It must not be that disjointed, because Ness's utilt, Zelda's Usmash, and a few other disjointed attacks always outprioritize Ness's dair. I've overridden his dair with Sheik's uair myself…

Its disjointed enough to hit characters like the Ice Climbers from one platforms distance on BF...I'll show you a picture if you need it...

Still like other DJed attacks do note that if something hits the body of the person they still will get hit as well...

All he has are 2-3 hit combos from a low % and whatever else you guys work on behind the board; so far, I only know of the uair/dair -> PKT2 thing. That's really all he has, and the latter, from what I can tell, isn't 100% reliable, but if you guys say it is, then fine. It's still an extremely small margin.

What other tricks does Ness have that are % dependent? Not counting things like b-throw at a certain %, of course. Anything that's guaranteed for him <<< anything that's guaranteed for Sheik.

Dude, Dair by itself sets up for true combos at very low %…
Fast falling Fairs sets into jabs or some other things (a fast falling Fair stuns for 5 frames of open time from the 1-4 sparks)…jabs can be cancelled into a dtilt/utilt…

Great.

Good…just wondering because Ness is pretty good at punishing those that run away from him in the air (PK Thunder)

Ness hitting Sheik's shield more than twice is not likely to happen. She can just nair him as soon as he touches her shield with anything that isn't fair. Besides, why is being able to jump around and mash aerials an innate advantage for Ness? It isn't.

How is she going to nair him when he is rising?

Because Sheik can reliably punish this with needles or a dash attack. She's fast. When your best defensive options can be reliably punished based off of reaction, you're in trouble.

I’m pretty sure Ness’ short hop jumps over a needle…

Ok, but why does this matter? In fact, even this is overrated.

You say he moves six blocks horizontally. Ok, so let's say he's trying to grab the ledge and it's... I dunno, five blocks away. When he starts the jump, there's the x-axis.

However, if I'm not mistaken, Ness likes to recover from below. Ness players will do whatever it takes to minimalize PKT use, too. This "six blocks" thing does not matter because either 1) Ness would have to be six blocks and level from the edge to grab it anyway (and this isn't even counting the edgeguarder), or 2) Ness would sacrifice some of his horizontal range in order to grab the ledge with his vertical range. Either way, he's not keeping himself safe AND maximizing this distance while using his midair jump to recover.

Ness likes to recover from below…but when talking about Sheik…I question the use of recovery from below…

And minimalizing PK Thunder use is really just an option…also you are aware that I was talking about taking advantage of Ness’ range right? What I meant was Ness can take advantage of his full resources to discourage ledge guarding…backing up to avoid someone pounding him doesn’t seem like such a bad thing IMO when someone like Sheik has limited horizontal movement…

Not that much because he can easily be intercepted.

Ok, so he can jump backwards. Yay.

That is my point about his recovery…Ness players have been setting them selves up for being gimped when they still have options…

Now seeing this, Sheik should be grabbing the ledge (with her tether if possible) and waiting for Ness. When he comes close, Sheik should slowly stand on the stage, either to 1) force you to die from bouncing off the ledge, or 2) punish your landing lag. It might make him a bit more versatile when recovering (as in moving backwards and forwards), but it has so many issues that I think it's a barely acceptable recovery.

Actually depending on how you use your thunder you can avoid landing lag to a point…

Ok, so they jump the same height.

Are you saying that Ness destroys tether recoveries? How? Because he can dair? That's not unique. Because he can use PKT? That's not destroying them. Sheik has the fastest tether recovery in the game. She can grab the ledge, pull herself up, and get off before you can even reliably react to her. What's he going to do? Grab the edge? That's not an advantage to Ness. That's universal. Sheik still has her Up B.

My point of talking about Thunder is to aim the tail into the person’s rope…not the person themselves…I’m talking about stage spiking…and still stuff like the yo yo does prevent someone from jumping off the ledge…unless they enjoy risking a stage spike…

I don't see anything that's special about Ness except for fair and PKT. He's not good against Sheik.

Meh…speed wise for moves they don’t seem to be that far off from being even…I mean Sheik still wins of course…but still they are close to being even…

Personally the main reason I think Sheik has the + in the match up is because of her jump grab release kill on Ness at around 85% or so…If it wasn’t for that I personally think they would be even…but whatever…

 

[Brinzy]

Its disjointed enough to hit characters like the Ice Climbers from one platforms distance on BF...I'll show you a picture if you need it...

Still like other DJed attacks do note that if something hits the body of the person they still will get hit as well...

That's not disjointed enough to save him from not trading hits. In fact, that's more or less his leg going down far... with a hurtbox.

Dude, Dair by itself sets up for true combos at very low %…
Fast falling Fairs sets into jabs or some other things (a fast falling Fair stuns for 5 frames of open time from the 1-4 sparks)…jabs can be cancelled into a dtilt/utilt…

You're telling me Sheik can't airdodge after the first dair? It doesn't register as a true combo in Training.

The last two things are generic abilities that he can do to anyone. Also, Sheik's ftilt lock still beats them.

Good…just wondering because Ness is pretty good at punishing those that run away from him in the air (PK Thunder)

PK Thunder? So Sheik is moving away from you, you notice, and then you PKT. By the time the move comes out, Sheik is probably already on the ground and dashing at you or throwing a needle to stop you. Nobody is going to assume that Sheik is so far away from Ness that she can't punish him for this.

How is she going to nair him when he is rising?

Rising bair/uair from Ness means nothing if he hits her shield, because she jumps high enough to reach him, always. He can rise all he wants, but a FH'd nair (Frame 2 attack) can STILL hit him. He can't beat on her shield that much.

I have never had my shield broken in Brawl by Ness unless it was anything other than 1 vs. 1. Not even aerial -> PKT2 strings have done it.

I’m pretty sure Ness’ short hop jumps over a needle…

He's going to land from a retreating fair. The moment he hits the ground, he's getting hit. He's probably NOT hitting Sheik with it because the whole point to a retreating aerial is to protect your character, but if someone has a fast projectile (Sheik), then it's not even completely safe.

Sheik isn't going to throw anything when Ness is airborne.

Ness likes to recover from below…but when talking about Sheik…I question the use of recovery from below…

And minimalizing PK Thunder use is really just an option…also you are aware that I was talking about taking advantage of Ness’ range right? What I meant was Ness can take advantage of his full resources to discourage ledge guarding…backing up to avoid someone pounding him doesn’t seem like such a bad thing IMO when someone like Sheik has limited horizontal movement…

Sheik isn't even limited! She'll have both of her jumps because she's on stage. Her Chain has a long sweetspot range and she can still Up B for about that distance. Ness can't float out there forever, and he's so easily read when off-stage that Sheik shouldn't be trying to jump off immediately to take him out; instead, she should wait a little bit and then go out and respond. Ness cannot safely deal with her. She can go too far from the stage and make it back for Ness to be safe.

That is my point about his recovery…Ness players have been setting them selves up for being gimped when they still have options…

I think that, overall, they do a good job at minimizing the chances of Ness being gimped or put into a bad position. His recovery is still mediocre no matter how you slice it.

Actually depending on how you use your thunder you can avoid landing lag to a point…

That also depends on positioning and what your edgeguarder is doing. I always go for the ledge as Ness. All you have to do is shield PKT2 and punish. It's ridiculously easy to do. Now if Sheik is on the ledge and Ness goes onto the stage, then there's a chance that he won't be punished, But... what about the times where Ness's PKT2 ends when he's airborne? Easy punishment for Sheik for any time when Ness has to recover from below because he's going to have to avoid the ledge (thanks to Sheik) in order to land on the stage... while floating right in front of her.

My point of talking about Thunder is to aim the tail into the person’s rope…not the person themselves…I’m talking about stage spiking…and still stuff like the yo yo does prevent someone from jumping off the ledge…unless they enjoy risking a stage spike…

When someone tethers the ledge, they can just hold on where they are. We know that Ness will never get the chance to yo-yo and PKT on one tether, so he's going to do one or the other. Ness can't charge his yo-yo over the edge long enough to reliably hit someone who's coming up because... well, they're not coming up. Same with PKT, except it can go down to where the person hanging on is, but that doesn't matter because you can still pull Sheik up fast enough to not get hit by it if it hasn't started significantly earlier. There's a chance of it happening, but it's not very large. Ness does not destroy *anything* in this game.

Meh…speed wise for moves they don’t seem to be that far off from being even…I mean Sheik still wins of course…but still they are close to being even…

Personally the main reason I think Sheik has the + in the match up is because of her jump grab release kill on Ness at around 85% or so…If it wasn’t for that I personally think they would be even…but whatever…

I didn't even factor this into my earlier score of 60:40 or possibly 55:45 Sheik. Ness isn't the easiest target to grab, but if it must be taken into consideration, then you're looking at that 55:45 possibility disappearing. 60:40 Sheik, no better.

 

[PKNintendo]

You know what? The next character were doing is Ness. Feel free to complain about how cheap this matchup is.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Ness Dittoes:

It's a match of both of both strategy, and spacing.

PK Thunder juggling doesn't always work because your opponent can absorb it, most of time however, you can trick them into using PSI Magnet, where you get a free hit. :D

Fair spacing is important, as it's not easily countered by Ness except with another Fair, and maybe certain tilts. (Yay high priorityNess!)

Dash attack is very useful in this matchup, unless you are bad at spacing. Don't get shieldgrabbed by, or grabbed at all by, Ness. Ness can do a lot of crap to himself during grabs. (I think you can grab release to dash attack and a few other things.)

PK Jump is a useful skill to know, you're opponent usually won't see it coming. (Plus you can attack out of it. )

You can stop PK Fire by charging the Yoyo's, just don't let go in case Ness is close by and trys to approach afterward.

There's probably more stuff, but I can't remember. Ness can counter himself quite well, but this ditto matchup is actually really fun. 50:50 Ness.

 

[xoxokev]

Ness dittos over wi-fi are actually really fun. I don't really know the specifics of offline dittos though... I'm the only Ness main around my area. Which is both and at the same time haha. Also, is that true? Dash attack out prioritizes PK Fire?!

 

[Earthbound Zero]

EDIT: TESTED. It doesn't work, but it does make the attack easy to escape. :/ Most of the time, powershielding is a better idea.

If you predict a Ness will pull off a spaced Dash attack, you can use PK Fire>Dashattack, it's a good string. :O

 

[Uffe]

Sheik > Ness, sorry. F-tilts, smashes, jabs, the whole shebang, she has an advantage over Ness. If you're beating her, then you're not fighting good Sheik's. Ness has a better chance against Zelda. I have no idea how this works, either, but it's true. Of course I'm not saying Ness has an advantage over Zelda.

Anyway, Ness vs Ness. Ness is probably one of my toughest match ups. Of course this match up really means nothing. I can beat you, you can beat me, but you probably can't beat people I fight on a regular basis just like I probably can't beat people you fight. In this match up, I hold a lot back which causes me to lose. Ness can go ahead and space against Ness, but when you try that on other opponents, don't think that your methods are going to work. He can fight both long range and close range, how he is used determines whether or not he'll win.

 

[GwJ]

Ness vs. Ness is a tough matchup. It's almost as hard as the ROB vs. ROB matchup.

 

[xoxokev]

Ness vs. Ness is a tough matchup. It's almost as hard as the ROB vs. ROB matchup.

Lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4JIUNWQRUk

 

[Earthbound Zero]

I watched that vid before, it makes me laugh every time.

 

[FireKirby7]

Predict Ness to recover with Ness's PK Thunder and make Ness use Ness's PSI Magnet to gimp Ness when Ness uses Ness's PK Thunder. Ness will fall to Ness's death, while Ness goes back to recover with Ness's PK Thunder.

Got it? Good.

 

[_clinton]

You people saying 50:50 don't know what you are talking about (I talk on Sheik later, but for now...I don't care ATM)

The match of Ness vs. Ness' Nightmare (NN) is 80:20 Ness at the most ok, here are my well thought out reasons for why this is:
1. Grab Releases-Ness has grab release tricks he can use on NN! There is nothing NN can do to counter these, so you might as well just give the match to Ness. A ground break gives Ness 10 frames to work with! Which is such a big deal you know, think about it for a second from your view point...you are giving someone 1/6th of a second for them to do whatever they want to you in a fight...what would stop them from kicking you in the balls! Also air breaks are even worse, 20 frames!
2. Gimpable recovery-NN has a piss poor recovery, and because NN will always fall for this because he is such a tool, you pretty much just gave him the match here to Ness. I mean NN can't do anything at all to stop people from gimping him, he is just that ****ed!
3. Limited kill power-NN's only kill move is Fsmash, and because of his gimpable recovery he has a piss poor air game, and a piss poor ledge guarding game as well. This is the main reason why Ness has 80:20 + over NN, and why you should just give up.
4. He is forced to appoach Ness as well-NN's projectiles can be absorbed by Ness' magnet, I mean its also a well known fact that NN can't appoach as well because he has nothing else. Thus with this info you might as well give up now because you know you just can't win.

As you can see from the facts (trust me they are flawless in their logic), the only way Ness could even lose this fight is if he SD's himself a lot, or screws around too much or something like that. He counters NN way to much, I'm am totally serious about this post and I'm not paroding things other people have said about Ness!

 

[ColinJF]

Doing Ness in this topic is a waste of time, and kind of silly.

 

[_clinton]

Doing Ness in this topic is a waste of time, and kind of silly.

Yep...you know it, I know it, but PK Nintendo wants to waste time...

 

[Brinzy]

Why is it a waste of time? If you get knocked out by a Ness in tourney... well, you should be proud, but you should also feel ashamed of yourself! I guess.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yep...you know it, I know it, but PK Nintendo wants to waste time...

It's called stalling or filler mah boi.

Nice info Clint.

 

[thesage]

I've at least jv 3 stocked every Ness I've encountered in a tourney. If I ever switch over to another character, I'll make sure nobody will win with Ness lol. I know like exactly what shuts him down.

Sorry can't tell you. It's classified.

 

[Gaussis]

Hopefully you don't ever switch.

*shudders at the idea

 

[Brinzy]

Not that it's impossible to figure out what shuts him down.

 

[paper otavio]

Mario should be in the 60-40 disadvantage matchup.

 

[Ref]

It's really Like 90-10 Ness advantage... You might find that the No contest screen appears sometimes... It's rare but can happen so it's not 100-0....

 

[thesage]

Not that it's impossible to figure out what shuts him down.

Nobody in my area has done it lol.

 

[_clinton]

Mario should be in the 60-40 disadvantage matchup.

I disagree

 

[Jtails]

mario i think is 50 50. his usmash can challenge the Dair.

in shieks case i also think its 50 50, one of my really good friends play shiek and it goes either way.

now Wario!? thats an interesting one. IDK. im curious to know your opinions.

 

[PKNintendo]

Jtails, nice to see ya. Mario's is debatable, but most of us agreed that it was 55-45. Possible 50-50 with a good counterpick. Sheik?

Until we find a way to deal with her, things (ftilt) I don't see it being lower than 55-45 for her. We should redo that. DI doesn't work because of Sakurai being a ****** and as the move decays, it gets harder to DI out of.

 

[xoxokev]

Sorry this is off topic, but this is for Shiek... you can pretty much predict if Shiek wants to ftilt lock you when you see her walking towards you. Unless she shields, PK Fire pretty much does the trick, since she DI's into the flame bc of her walking... better yet, a pivot PK Fire would be good because your opponent will probably not expect the PK Fire, therefore not be prepared to shield