PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[milesg2g]

according to this, from the v4 tier list, we are now on spamus.

I personally like playing against spamus. While she CAN get to you with all her missile and zair spam, (charge shot = we get health), most of it is fairly predictable and can be dodged. Charge shot can be predictable too, because a samus will ALMOST ALWAYS use it following a missile or zair or something else random. If they just throw it out, it's easy enough to dodge (don't always need health) and resume.

somewhat slow grab on samus' part make us shielding constantly a somewhat viable option. we have good OoS options (nair, fair, usmash, PKT!!! [ill never use it, but you can work it in if you are lucky], AD, etc.). Samus will bombard us with ranged attacks while we slowly approach with safety. A few things to note are that samus' fair has somewhat good range, jab is quick, jab cancels will often be taken, and utilt is quick and powerful. also, maybe bair or nair at random times. Lots of times, they will just airdodge and use zair all day long. If that's the case, PKjump can help. keep slightly out of zair range, PKjump just on time, opponent is caught slightly off guard and you get a uair followup from the fire. If not, the uair misses and you get either a grab or fair or pkt due to short landing lag on uair. If you still hate pkjump, you'll have less options to approach and will rely on shield dashing and perfect shielding to make sure that you can't get punished unexpectedly. PKJump just gives you the extra something.

samus can't kill very early... we use that to our advantage. Her kill moves often leave lots of space to punish (except a good bair). Do well in avoiding KO and you can live long or punish hard, both of which just add to percent leads and give ness a slight advantage.

nothing is overpowering for ness, but I see no way that Samus can totally outcamp/outspeed/outrange ness. In my opinion, I say 60:40, but It could go towards samus' favor more if played unbelievably well. In terms of general gameplay though, I say that ness has a pretty fair advantage. Reflect projectiles, Absorb charge shot, Kill slightly easier (not too much, but he can kill better than samus can), good OoS to counter shield pressure, and some ways of approaching (although some are less safe than others). If I can find any other reason in samus' favor, it'd be 55:45, but I can't think of much. Samus has an easy time recovering most of the time (I've seen several samus players live for quite a while and recover with ease), but it doesn't make the greatest of difference. Samus isn't hard countered by ness, but samus doesn't have an easy time with ness at the same time. Ness CAN have a hard time with samus, but mainly with mistakes made. If ness doesn't fall for obvious (at least obvious to me) traps that samus is making, then he shouldn't have a huge problem.

Final word on ratio: 60:40 Ness, but can lean toward samus. Possibly 55:45 ness. I wouldn't go any further down.

Ugh Samus?
Why are we even taking our time on low tiers lol.

Lets discuss Ness' hardest MU's or high tier characters. His MU's w/ the people under him are pretty much Concrete I don't see it going anywhere. Can we please discuss olimar! lol.

 

[_clinton]

Olimar is pure evil in a tiny little suit!

 

[Eagleye893]

Yeah, let's shift to go from top to bottom. Skip MK and snake temporarily. We all know the MUs for the low tiers.

 

[Uffe]

Ugh Samus?
Why are we even taking our time on low tiers lol.

Lets discuss Ness' hardest MU's or high tier characters. His MU's w/ the people under him are pretty much Concrete I don't see it going anywhere. Can we please discuss olimar! lol.

I hope you're not serious. A low-tier can be full of surprises. Don't think that just because a character is low-tier that they have no chance of ever winning. Last year at a Street Fighter 4 tournament called West Coast Warzone, a Gen player (Yeb) was dominating a lot of top players who used characters like Sagat, Viper, Zangeif, etc. Gen is a bad character from what I've heard. So it's best we take consideration of each character, no matter how bad they are. A Ganondorf main named Verm is doing pretty good in Brawl, too. So yeah.

 

[Yink]

Okay, fine, we'll do MK first then. -_-;

 

[milesg2g]

I hope you're not serious. A low-tier can be full of surprises. Don't think that just because a character is low-tier that they have no chance of ever winning. Last year at a Street Fighter 4 tournament called West Coast Warzone, a Gen player (Yeb) was dominating a lot of top players who used characters like Sagat, Viper, Zangeif, etc. Gen is a bad character from what I've heard. So it's best we take consideration of each character, no matter how bad they are. A Ganondorf main named Verm is doing pretty good in Brawl, too. So yeah.

Uffe, you do realize that Ness was once considered Low tier right?

I know not to underestimate the Low Tier mains, but @ this point Ness is Mid tier and showing a ****load of potential we gotta dissect a lot of his High and Mid tier MU's so we can really see just wtf is going on here. I'm not saying Low Tier's aren't important, but I feel we should do this list in opposite order. It's more interesting this way anyway. That's probably why this thread has been dead for so long. Who cares about Ness vs Puff anyway? lol I mean come on lets discuss the more important 1's while were @ it.

 

[Eagleye893]

Uffe, you do realize that Ness was once considered Low tier right?

I know not to underestimate the Low Tier mains, but @ this point Ness is Mid tier and showing a ****load of potential we gotta dissect a lot of his High and Mid tier MU's so we can really see just wtf is going on here. I'm not saying Low Tier's aren't important, but I feel we should do this list in opposite order. It's more interesting this way anyway. That's probably why this thread has been dead for so long. Who cares about Ness vs Puff anyway? lol I mean come on lets discuss the more important 1's while were @ it.

That and because ness was once low tier, low tier tournaments allowed us to get the matchup for everyone. I've played several low tier characters and mains (ganon, CF [I played ally's CF and got rocked a year or so back], Samus, JIggz [I lost to jiggz then 'cause I didn't know crap], Link, Zelda) and have been able to learn from those matches fairly well.

Not lots of people play low tiers, but because ness was once low tier status, he was allowed to go against all the lowest tier players. After some low tier tourneys, you get a feel for all the tricks of low tier characters, because there hasn't been much change with such characters in a while.

Starting with ness' current trouble (since he is mid, he'll be less likely to face everyone below him) in the higher tiers, we address some ness mains' problems with tourney play, and can potentially boost ness' placings.

 

[milesg2g]

Since, no ones talking on this thread I think we should start from the very top and discuss MK. MK mains are getting more and more frustrated from Ness. I'm also hearing of mains like D3 picking up Ness for a second against pocket MK's. Can we please discuss these matters and try to come up w/ a reasonable MU for the Top Tier character.

 

[Yink]

Since, no ones talking on this thread I think we should start from the very top and discuss MK. MK mains are getting more and more frustrated from Ness. I'm also hearing of mains like D3 picking up Ness for a second against pocket MK's. Can we please discuss these matters and try to come up w/ a reasonable MU for the Top Tier character.

I'm actually making the Ness vs MK thread like, right now lol. Just digging up the MU thread of theirs and the Frame Data for MK.

Expect the thread in a few min.

 

[milesg2g]

I'm actually making the Ness vs MK thread like, right now lol. Just digging up the MU thread of theirs and the Frame Data for MK.

Expect the thread in a few min.

Shouldn't we just discuss it here? Instead of having like a whole thread about it? lol I can see that turning a few heads and causing some conflict in the discussion.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Shouldn't we just discuss it here? Instead of having like a whole thread about it? lol I can see that turning a few heads and causing some conflict in the discussion.

I agree with this post.

 

[Yink]

Shouldn't we just discuss it here? Instead of having like a whole thread about it? lol I can see that turning a few heads and causing some conflict in the discussion.

It's honestly easier to document them in individual threads, that's why. If there's a problem, I'll had out infractions.

 

[milesg2g]

It's honestly easier to document them in individual threads, that's why. If there's a problem, I'll had out infractions.

But I mean, keeping it in the MU thread makes it seem more organized and takes away from the trolling attempts.

 

[Yink]

We've done it this way for 5 of these now...

This is just for specific questions now. Once we finish re-discussing I'm going to link all the threads to the OP so people can look if they need it. It's REALLY hard to find info in here after awhile.

 

[milesg2g]

yeah but the last 5 MU's discussed were about low tier characters that I don't see rising to mid tier anytime soon, which we all agreed on. I mean lets be real here Jiggz, Zelda, Samus,? like no one plays those characters. If we're not discussing tourney play characters we won't get tourney discussion.

I'm not saying don't do the thread but couldn't you do that for the questions about the MU and we do the discussion here?

 

[kennypu]

yeah but the last 5 MU's discussed were about low tier characters that I don't see rising to mid tier anytime soon, which we all agreed on. I mean lets be real here Jiggz, Zelda, Samus,? like no one plays those characters. If we're not discussing tourney play characters we won't get tourney discussion.

I'm not saying don't do the thread but couldn't you do that for the questions about the MU and we do the discussion here?

ironically enough the monthly tourneys here include a zelda (DarkMusician) and Jiggz.

anyways, I think there are a quite a few zeldas, maybe not superiorly good ones like DM but there are quite a few. jiggz and samus is a minority though, since people not in the tourney scene assume that jiggz is junk, while there are samuses here and there, but not as much as most other characters.

 

[Bartolon]

Jujux is really good.

 

[PKNintendo]

Re-reading this thread made me cry. LOTS of Nostalgia .(Good job on locating the discussions Yink)

I think we should redo some matchups. (some of them are outdated)
PS: LOL Marth mains are cold.
PS2: Dryn and Uffe are Twins?

 

[Greward]

jujux is the best zelda

 

[milesg2g]

Ness vs. Oli looking mad sharp for me haha

 

[Greward]

one day the smart guy bartolon also known as s1-14 which means super number 1-14years old of intelligence told me that he would **** me with the freak child with a bat but then he rejected the MM because he saw me ****** all people with my absolutely incredible sonic then he realized how awesomly good sonic was

sonic 100-0 ness

buenni bartolon

 

[milesg2g]

one day the smart guy bartolon also known as s1-14 which means super number 1-14years old of intelligence told me that he would **** me with the freak child with a bat but then he rejected the MM because he saw me ****** all people with my absolutely incredible sonic then he realized how awesomly good sonic was

sonic 100-0 ness

buenni bartolon

Ness can just nair all of sonics approaches.

 

[Jiffyboob]

Fighting Sonic is all about keeping a clear head, being patient, and not using very many specials (if at all). It's definitely either EVEN..... or MAYBE SLIGHTLY Ness's favor. Can't Sonic grab to regrab us?
Experience in this matchup is kind of a must because his speed and options of approach. It can take you by surprise if you aren't ready.

Also, Bartolon getting called out?!

 

[Neon Ness]

Fighting Sonic is all about keeping a clear head, being patient

Goes for every matchup though.

and not using very many specials (if at all)

Why not?

Can't Sonic grab to regrab us?

Yeah, I think so It's almost par for the course now... getting grabbed is bad.

Experience in this matchup is kind of a must because his speed and options of approach. It can take you by surprise if you aren't ready.

Also goes for every matchup?

 

[Jiffyboob]

Goes for every matchup though.



Why not?



Yeah, I think so It's almost par for the course now... getting grabbed is bad.



Also goes for every matchup?

k, for the most part. Sonic's game can be kinda frustrating to play against though. All that hit and run.

Sonic is too fast. PK Thunder when they are airborne is about the only decently safe option. Even then it's not that great. Only after they use the spring maybe... PK Fire is way too slow here.

Not everyone has a grab to regrab. Walkoffs?

Sonic isn't that played of a character. Chances are if you play one, they will be experienced. He has alot of cancels and other mindgame-y type things that are best seen.

 

[Bartolon]

hahaha nah, I was tired those3 days and was in a really bad mood, and Greward his appearance intimidated me, he was the friend of the guy who hit the wall "MARCBRI PUNCH"

Best day in my entire life.

 

[Greward]

i actually took a photography with the marcbri punch next to me =P

sonic can release u then dtilt footstool jab lock to reverse side b cancel to continue the jab lock from side of the stage to the other side until he wants to finish with a fsmash and ull die

 

[Player-3]

@eagle

i wasn't saying i was right i said that's my input and what i know from playing the limited ness mains i know <_<

 

[Eagleye893]

okay.... Sorry. I got angry for a second. no problems in the end. xD

I don't want to explain what I was going to say, because my homework is going to take forever.

 

[Yink]

New tier list guys, just gonna post it in here. Next weekend we're gonna work on Snake.

Condensed Version
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
C: Toon Link, Kirby, Fox, R.O.B., Pit, Peach, Donkey Kong
D: Luigi, Wolf, (Zelda/Sheik), Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness, Pokémon Trainer
E: Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda
G: Ganondorf

Notice the Zelda/Sheik entry and well...Ness did not move this tier list. (which is better than dropping, really).

 

[milesg2g]

lol lol

... When did you get this info? lol

 

[Neon Ness]

rageragerage Bowser should never be below MOTHER kids

Ness probably won't be allowed in low tier tournaments anymore

 

[milesg2g]

Ness is better than Bowser I believe lol.

 

[Yink]

rageragerage Bowser should never be below MOTHER kids

Ness probably won't be allowed in low tier tournaments anymore

O_o

Ness is way better than Bowser dude. And no, Ness is no longer in low tier.

 

[Neon Ness]

Yo.

Bowser has an air throw.

Does Ness have an air throw?

It's weird how much Ness has moved up over time especially compared to Lucas. Back in 2008 I thought they would have adjacent placements forever.

There was a lot less movement overall this time though, seem like.

 

[Bartolon]

Lets get back to life ness fella's

 

[Eagleye893]

Are we discussing anyone? I don't remember... We haven done anything with this thread in a while.

I think Yink created an MU thread that used a less ratio-based ranking for characters. Like -1 means that we are at somewhat of a disadvantage, -2 is disadvantaged, -3 is counter possibly, and -4 is heavy counter. The other direction was our advantage and 0 was neutral-ish.

I'll post in that and see if we can get some discussion on specific characters.

 

[Neon Ness]

Is this thread even still necessary? It's true we haven't discussed anyone in a while. And even when we did we started new threads for each character.

It's partially up to Yink since she's the OP but this might be a defunct sticky.

 

[_clinton]

I feel like talking about every match up right now.
-1=disadvantage for Ness
0=even
1=advantage for Ness

Mario:0
Luigi:0
Peach:0
Bowser:1
DK:-1
Diddy:0
Yoshi:1
Wario:-1
Link:1
Zelda:0
Sheik:0
Ganondorf:1
Tink:0
Samus:0
Zamus:0
Pit:0
Ice Climbers:0
ROB:0
Kirby:0
MK:-1
D3:-1
Olimar:0
Fox:0
Falco:0
Wolf:0
Captain Falcon:0
Pikachu:0
Squirtle:-1
Ivysaur:1
Charizard:0
Lucario:0
Jigglypuff:1
Marth:-1
Ike:-1
Ness:0
Lucas:0
G&W:-1
Snake:-1
Sonic:0

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Eagleye893]

It ranges from -4 to 4.... Just saying "advantage/disadvantage/neutral" doesn't do anything...