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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
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3,189
My views on Ness vary quite often and in the match ups as well but overall I think Lucas is the by far more underestimated character out of the two Mother kids.

One thing is for sure though: Marth, Pokemon trainer's Squritle/Charizard, G&W, and whoever else I'm forgetting about that thinks their character just flat out destroys Ness on the other board aren't Ness' worst match ups IMO (I'd say DK has more on all of them).
 

Eagleye893

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People NEED to see the potential of dtilt... it's too pro!!! xD

no, seriously....
 

milesg2g

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
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People NEED to see the potential of dtilt... it's too pro!!! xD

no, seriously....


I did it today in a tourney racked up a lot of damage.

I'm aware that it does a lot because DK+Ness in Homerun Contest=****
[Down+B DK + Dtilt Ness omai lawd]

Thing is landing it is so hard to do. you can really do some damage w/ it though
 

Eagleye893

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awwww... misconception is spamming dtilt flurry... I mean dtilt sets up into so much **** it's not even funny.

I've practiced it enough so that I hit with it nearly EVERY time, and even if not all i do is take an instant to fair out and back.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
Ness' jab and Ftilt out range Dtilt's range to be fair in order to make up for the hit trip rate. Still, it is one of those reasons why I have Ness' c-stick set to "attack" instead of auto smash attacks though (oh and they don't have a seconds worth of cool down time if you miss, that to).
 

Uffe

Smash Hero
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D-tilt can be punished, surprisingly. I won't mention what can punish it, but let's just say the opponent I play against, he likes to Up + B out of it whenever I do it and he reacts on time. Would someone like to see if Marth can Up + B out of it? That's a scary thought.
 

Eagleye893

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i'd rather start from the top and work our way to the bottom... thats just me..

so MK again? lol

nvm that... lets go link.



wait.... where did we leave off?
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
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I think you guys did Ganon and Link.
We did, and we also did Zelda. So that means we are most certainly on Jigglypuff.

I'll make a thread for it in about 15 min guys, I have to take care of something.
 

Eagleye893

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triple post after double post? sweet!!! xD

jiggly is terrible.... I'm gonna say that once. Wifi is the only way in which he/she/it has a chance, because I can't get my perfect shields all the time and end up screwing up the perfect shielding the rollout and don't get the free nair.

basically, fair beats him in range everywhere if done correctly. watch out for high-priority pound. beware, jiggly is light, so less funky pseudo-combos. that also means that usmash/utilt kill earlier.... also bthrow.

don't have much to say... never play a really good jiggz.
 

KrayzeeGuy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
23
Location
Earth, and glad about it!
I play Jiggs often, even before I was a Ness user, actually, the only thing is that I never fought a Ness user as one. If anything I can offer a fight and we can do summaries based off it.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
Jiggs sure is fun to play as that is one of those things I'm going to say.

Anyway, Jiggs will chances are gimp us before we gimp her. Oh and as far as KO moves go: Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Fair, Dash Attack, Bthrow, and Bair I guess. Oh, and yes rest is a KO move as well.

Sad to say, she has a number of options, but they suck overall IMO lol.

Fsmash is a mirror of Kirby's; only it is weaker in KO % in general, has a bit more start up time, and the strong spot is smaller as well IIRC (I'm never 100% sure)

Usmash has a good DACUS with Jiggs if she can use it right, sadly the sour spot is right at the front of old Jiggs, but I'm sure you'll be hit with the other spots before that hits you.

Dsmash isn't super powerful in knock back, but it has a low angle of knockback that you have to worry about. Said angle is lower than Zelda's Dsmash, but it comes out on like frame 14 instead of 4, Oh and the lower angle doesn't help it at the center of the stage, you'll hit the stage and can possibly tech it, see how fair Jigg's moves are so far compared to other characters?

Fair is IMO hard to keep fresh, but it will kill at around the time your Bair will or so, so overall it is good still. The dash attack is again like Dsmash better if used by the stage, Bair and Bthrow really will only KO if you DI it wrong and are by the ledge.

Rest is the reason for why you should be careful about leaving yourself open with using moves like PKT or PKF. Oh and why you should stay away from Jiggs Dair (again, weaker by far than Kirby's). Oh and frames 1-28 (for some reason) have invulnerability frames and the move comes out on frame 3. So be careful about moves like Dtilt, the jab, or even to a point Fair, because rest in brawl is very well possible for you to set it up yourself.

Of course, Ness is a small target and his moves only lower that hitbox of his and make it smaller in general, do keep in mind that that makes things like rest very hard and very risky to land on him. And him having moves that kill you at 30% or so doesn't make it better ^_^

Keep in mind that pound rips through shields pretty well and Jiggs can angle it and chances are she won't need her 5 jumps to recover at all because of it. Sing is useful for really only one thing, if you are by the ledge and she is grabbing it, and even then the thing is limited.

That is all for now.
 

LiteTheIronMan

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I'm usually a Samus main but I'll give out some findings from my play as Ness (which as you might be able to tell I did in collaboration with KrayzeeGuy.)

Jiggly's ground game is better than yours. She outspeeds you, Rollout will leave you unbalanced when successfully charged, and her grabs are deadly. Keeping Jiggly in the air is key as your attacks are stronger than hers in the air and she's much more floaty than you are. As long as you can land your attacks before Jiggly does you can typically out-do her in aerial combat. Attacks like Ness's Up Throw, his Down Smash, and his Dash-A will be able to force Jiggly into the air.

This matchup is also better for Ness on smaller stages with lots of platforms, like Norfair or Battlefield that force the combatants to move around the field, thus keeping Jiggly in the air and leaving her open for Ness's neutral air and down air spikes. Stages that are completely flat like Smashville and Final Destination will force you to stay on the ground and thus ruin your air game.

I would recommend a somewhat campy tactic that allows you to pummel Jiggly from afar with things like Ness's yo-yo based attacks (upsmash, downsmash, etc.) and PK Fire, then moving in to get Jiggly in the air using upgrab or (if possible) his sidesmash.
 

KrayzeeGuy

Smash Rookie
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Okay, did a handful of matches with my friend, who *already has posted his report too.

I was Jiggs, and he was Ness, but knowing a good amount about Ness, I can make a report for this character board (so far my favorite character board).

First things first, Jiggs may be known for her aerial gameplay, but I admit, Ness has the upper-hand, his nair I rarely saw, but his fair does indeed stop Jiggs SO LONG as it is done before she gets within aerial range, otherwise, her fair, and nair, outspeed the frames of Ness' fair. Rule: Keep Jiggs in the air, strangely she is not as much of an aerial diva as Ness is.

However, do not think that because she is in the air, you have full advantage, Jiggs has some strangely effective means of getting to ground if you do not get in the air as well. Your usmash(uncharged) will be stopped DEAD if you fight a clever Jiggs, because Jiggs can cancel your usmash(uncharged) with a properly timed fair or nair, those two moves are Jiggs' trump cards for aerial combat if you didn't already know.

Next we get onto advantage points, since we are so close to the topic:
Jiggs: Air/Ness: Ground
Contrary to popular belief, Jiggs surprisingly is the defensive one in this point, but her defense is stellar if you cannot manuever your tactics to your will. If Jiggs comes from up-top, and she's not clever enough, surprise her with a shortchage PK Flash, PK Flash will help greatly when defending Jiggs, as she is all CQC, also, if you fight a Jiggs that recovers with Rollout, and you mastered your PK Flash, you can tactically time a PK Flash that will be lethal to any minorly damaged Jiggs. (This being if you have superpowers, but surprisingly to me the odds for succeeding at this are quite decent if done right.) On a final note for this part, don't forget to shieldgrab and do your back-throw of death!

Jiggs: Ground/Ness: Ground
Okay, this is stalemate zone because Jiggs will most likely counter whatever you do with Pound, or it will be a dodge-grabfest. Most likely this will also rarely happen, as Jiggs users tend to take to the skies, so be prepared for the above, as Jiggs will attempt short-hop tilts to her advantage, be warned that she also speeds up in the air, and also will attempt short-hop pounds, which are MUCH faster than on the ground.

Jiggs: Ground/Ness: Air
Careful here, Jiggs has dangerous hitbubbles for all of Ness's aerial moves, your nair will help, but a smart Jiggs may outpredict and shield into a grab. Grabs are something that you need to be careful with, Jiggs may die from shieldbreak, but will most certainly not be afraid of shielding.

Jiggs: Air/Ness: Air

Hoo! You guys are lucky! Ness has the advantage in this match-up! Take to the skies, focus on basic A moves! PK moves have no use on Jiggs unless she's picking her nonexistant nose! And that goes for ground OR air! HOWEVER, be wary! Jiggs can still give you a fatal pound as she goes to the ground to defend her position! Do not take her lightly!

Final stance: Jiggs is a verily aggressive opponent, but you have a few moves to give yourself the upper hand. I say a good 55/45 Ness' advantage in my report.

Stages of choice:
In some tournaments, Norfair is allowed, LOVE NORFAIR, IT WILL CUDDLE YOU AT NIGHT WITH ITS PROPERLY PLACED PLATFORMS THAT ENABLE MORE CENTRAL AIR-PLAY.

Avoid stages that have centered platforms, Final Destination is your friend if you aren't at counterpicks.

Kray Z. Guy signing out! *unplugs self*
 

Jayford

Smash Lord
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Sep 16, 2008
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Chesterton, IN and West Lafayette, IN
Hi my name is Jayford and I am pretty much the best Puff main ever. Here is how you don’t lose to bads that play Puff.


Bair: This is pretty much Puff’s main approach. There is a common misconception that it is easy to punish with fair, but that isn’t the case. Puff can jump in the middle of the bair and arc above you right about you after a bair hits. So you can just jump OoS and fair her. If she does arc above you and doesn’t go high enough you can uair OoS and hit her.

Nair: It seems like I’m the only Puff that uses this move, but omg it’s pretty broken. If Puff auto cancels it and you shield it then she has a ton of options. If you stay in shield after it hits she can just grab you. If you drop shield she can just uptilt you and if you try and roll she can fsmash or rest you out of the roll. So look out for this move and try and mix up your response to it. Also, it seems like it retained a bit of its priority from Melee.

Dair: I never approach with it because bair is better for approaching. The only time I use it is when I need to hit someone recovering low, or when I am returning to the stage to protect myself. Also, I guess I sometimes use it for shield pressure and to poke.

Uair: It’s nothing really to amazing. You can get a few juggles off with it at lower percents and it can kill you if you’re really high. So don’t worry about this move.

Fair: The **** movie :D. If you sweet spot it and it’s fresh it can kill you at like 90%. Look out for this move and be ready to DI it. I’ll talk about it more when I talk about being off stage.

Ftilt: It’s a bad move, don’t worry about it.

Dilt: I guess it has ok range and can shield poke, but a good Puff probably won’t be using this.

Utilt: Puff’s best tilt imo. It can protect you if you auto cancel aerials and can combo at low percents look out for it.

Fmash: Her best smash. It has ok killing power and decent range. It’s got a decent amount of lag so you can punish it pretty easy. Most Puff players won’t be spaming this so you don’t have to worry about it to much. Just out for it when you roll, or when Puff auto cancel’s a nair.

Dmash: This move sucks.

Usmash: This move sucks, even if you DACUS it. If the Puff is dumb enough to use it just bat, bair, or grab them when they do it.

Pound: I think it beats all of Ness’s moves. Maybe a spaced fair will beat it. It also ****’s your shield. It’s got a lot of lag tho so if you predict it you can punish it pretty hard. This is one of my main approaches as Puff, but I space it really well, but there are a lot of bads who think they can play Puff and will not space this move right. So you can nair, fair, and maybe uair it oos. And if they do it by the edge dair them LOL.

Rest: This moves is pretty bad lmao so don’t worry about it that much. I only use it when I am trying to style on my opponent or when they have some super laggy move like Samus’s or ZSS’s grab. She really only has three opportunities to rest you in this match up.
1.) When you are falling from after a PKT2.
2.) If they predict a roll.
3.) If you tech or mistech on a platform. (I’ll talk about this more later.)

Sing: I like to use this move against bads looool. You can ledge cancel it so don’t **** around by the ledge to much. Other then that you shouldn’t ever get hit by it >.>. I know in melee if you get a ledge cancel sing off and you’re winning you can do it over and over until you win the match. I dunno if it works in Brawl because I’ve never tried it, but I would probably get DQed anyway because of the ledge grab rule lmao.

Rollout: My favorite move. I like to read for air dodges and hit with roll out. Also, it’s probably not always the best idea to punish it. Because if you mess up you can get rocked pretty hard. Also, Puff can mix up the timing on the rolls and stuff to mess up your punish. Play it safe and just shield or jump on a platform where she can’t get you.

Off Stage

The most important thing to remember when off stage is that Puff has a really slow vertical movement speed. So if you get knocked off the stage and she is flying towards you fast fall down and try and PKT2 yourself to the stage ASAP, because Puff’s are super scared of the move. It kills us at like 40% 0_0.

The other important thing to remember is to not get to predictable with air dodges. That is how Puff will get a lot of her kills is to read air dodges then fair. So don’t get predictable.

Random Important Stuff

1.) Don’t spam roll. I get a lot of my damage by predicting rolls and doing double bairs when people roll. Or you can get styled on and get rested out of roll.

2.) Don’t ever tech / miss tech on a platform. If you do Puff doesn’t even have to predict what you are going to do. If their reaction time isn’t awful they can rest you, uair, bair or nair just by reacting. So always DI away from platforms.

3.) Puff is top tier just no one realizes it yet :D.


Follow this advice and you should **** bad Puffs. Now you only have to fear awesome Puffs like me <3.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
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Hey you Ness boards have a really nice MU thread. And the ratios are realistic thought I disagree with Ness not having Hard counters.
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
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Well, it is a bit...old I have to admit. I really need to change MK, DDD and Marth.
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
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Bad.

I seriously want to argue that DDD is Ness' worst match up. MK takes awhile to get used to and Marth is obnoxious.
 

Eagleye893

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marth i agree. DDD isn't worse than marth, but is bad. MK is easy for me. MK is predictable.
 

Eagleye893

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Tier List Version Four

TOP
S :metaknight:

HIGH
A :snake: :diddy: :falco: :popo: :marth: :warioc:
B :dedede: :pikachu2: :olimar: :lucario: :gw:

Middle
C :pit: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus: :kirby2: :rob:
D :dk2: :peach: :fox: :luigi2: :wolf:
E :shiek: :pt: :sonic: :ness2: :bowser2:

Low
F :lucas: :ike: :yoshi2: :mario2: :falcon: :samus2: :jigglypuff:
G :zelda: :link2: :ganondorf:

Condensed Version:
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth, Wario
B: King Dedede, Pikachu, Olimar, Lucario, Mr. Game & Watch
C: Pit, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, R.O.B.
D: Donkey Kong, Peach, Fox, Luigi, Wolf
E: Sheik, Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Ness, Bowser
F: Lucas, Ike, Yoshi, Mario, Falcon, Samus, Jigglypuff
G: Zelda, Link, Ganondorf

according to this, from the v4 tier list, we are now on spamus.

I personally like playing against spamus. While she CAN get to you with all her missile and zair spam, (charge shot = we get health), most of it is fairly predictable and can be dodged. Charge shot can be predictable too, because a samus will ALMOST ALWAYS use it following a missile or zair or something else random. If they just throw it out, it's easy enough to dodge (don't always need health) and resume.

somewhat slow grab on samus' part make us shielding constantly a somewhat viable option. we have good OoS options (nair, fair, usmash, PKT!!! [ill never use it, but you can work it in if you are lucky], AD, etc.). Samus will bombard us with ranged attacks while we slowly approach with safety. A few things to note are that samus' fair has somewhat good range, jab is quick, jab cancels will often be taken, and utilt is quick and powerful. also, maybe bair or nair at random times. Lots of times, they will just airdodge and use zair all day long. If that's the case, PKjump can help. keep slightly out of zair range, PKjump just on time, opponent is caught slightly off guard and you get a uair followup from the fire. If not, the uair misses and you get either a grab or fair or pkt due to short landing lag on uair. If you still hate pkjump, you'll have less options to approach and will rely on shield dashing and perfect shielding to make sure that you can't get punished unexpectedly. PKJump just gives you the extra something.

samus can't kill very early... we use that to our advantage. Her kill moves often leave lots of space to punish (except a good bair). Do well in avoiding KO and you can live long or punish hard, both of which just add to percent leads and give ness a slight advantage.

nothing is overpowering for ness, but I see no way that Samus can totally outcamp/outspeed/outrange ness. In my opinion, I say 60:40, but It could go towards samus' favor more if played unbelievably well. In terms of general gameplay though, I say that ness has a pretty fair advantage. Reflect projectiles, Absorb charge shot, Kill slightly easier (not too much, but he can kill better than samus can), good OoS to counter shield pressure, and some ways of approaching (although some are less safe than others). If I can find any other reason in samus' favor, it'd be 55:45, but I can't think of much. Samus has an easy time recovering most of the time (I've seen several samus players live for quite a while and recover with ease), but it doesn't make the greatest of difference. Samus isn't hard countered by ness, but samus doesn't have an easy time with ness at the same time. Ness CAN have a hard time with samus, but mainly with mistakes made. If ness doesn't fall for obvious (at least obvious to me) traps that samus is making, then he shouldn't have a huge problem.

Final word on ratio: 60:40 Ness, but can lean toward samus. Possibly 55:45 ness. I wouldn't go any further down.
 
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