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Social PK Love - Lucas Social Thread: “Inside the mailbox was absolutely nothing”
- Thread starter TumblrFamous
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BlueberrySyrup
Smash Lord
You can edit your post.
Lochy
Smash Ace
Lucas' grab range has to get buffed imo. Or at least the consistency of the grab. Also dash grab= swimming in lag.
But Lucas can't at this stage be written off as bad. We haven't even had him for a full week. Other tech will probably be found that will improve him further. Also in Sm4sh i do not think there is any character I write off as bad. The Meta is evolving right now. I think after about 1 month or so is a good time to start truly judging things.
But Lucas can't at this stage be written off as bad. We haven't even had him for a full week. Other tech will probably be found that will improve him further. Also in Sm4sh i do not think there is any character I write off as bad. The Meta is evolving right now. I think after about 1 month or so is a good time to start truly judging things.
I think his grab is fine for what it is. You just have to be careful with it, you can't be whipping it out left and right like you're ness. And with rage.. I think it might be the best grab in the game, I've been tossing bowsers out at 90%, with the right rage %, it's pretty sick..
Smashoperatingbuddy123
Smash Legend
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Its lucas time for me
Got a eshop card
Got a eshop card
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
I keep overestimating the range on Lucas' grab, for a tether it has very small range compared to Link (even pre-patch), ZSS and Samus.
Some of the best forward and back throws. His down throw is obviously good, but it's so easy to DI away from, Lucas really needs to make a good read to KO with it.
The main thing is that it's too short and doesn't have nearly enough active frames. Why a tether grab that can't even catch rolls reliably?
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
Swimming in lag.. Lmao I'm dying
Yeah the frames could be improved but I would think that increased range would just mean more ending lag if you whiff. I still love it's rage killing power though, such a satisfying pay off.
Jiggly
Drop the mic, cause these fools sleeping on me
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I just noticed Claus in an annogram of Lucas... Wow...
Awakining
Smash Apprentice
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I exclusively b-stick, actually. Not only does it work incredibly well for me with Lucas, but it also helps when I play some my other mains, namely Luigi. So, yes, I prefer b-sticking.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
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ok so I actually got the Lucas DLC and played with him a lot, and what I have to say is:
Interesting things I noticed:
- Good mobility
- Decent zoning game with Zairs and PK Fire
- If you hit someone close with Zair you can combo into a Utilt or a Ftilt.
- Very good tether recovery and becomes even better with magnet stalling your fall
- PK Thunder can be used as a edgeguard tool. Just run circles with it at the ledge.
- All his tilts are very good, Dtilt combos into Jab (not sure), Ftilt does 11% and is pretty quickly and Utilt has very low start up lag while being a late kill move (kills at around 170%) and is a good option to use after you stop your shield.
- A lot of good kill moves (Fsmash, Uair, Uthrow, Bthrow at the ledge, PSI Magnet at the ledge)
- His Dthrow combos into any aerial at low percents and at high %s you can do really nasty things, if they don't DI you can Dthrow -> uair then which is a pseudo hoo haa that kills early. If they do DI, you can still Fair then. If you're feeling confident you can try Dthrow -> Dair at high percents and in they don't tech you can kill then with a Uair, it's pretty stylish.
However, Lucas has 2 big problems:
1-) His grab is terrible, not only it has massive end lag but some parts of it just don't grab the opponent sometimes lol. That's a really big weakness since most of his combo game comes from Dthrow.
2-) His aerial game is somewhat weak. His aerials doesn't have much range so he tends to lose trades in the air.
I am honestly worried about Lucas, because having such a big weakness as a weak aerial game and having his most powerfull toll (Dthrow combos) impaired because of a terrible grab can really hurt him.
Interesting things I noticed:
- Good mobility
- Decent zoning game with Zairs and PK Fire
- If you hit someone close with Zair you can combo into a Utilt or a Ftilt.
- Very good tether recovery and becomes even better with magnet stalling your fall
- PK Thunder can be used as a edgeguard tool. Just run circles with it at the ledge.
- All his tilts are very good, Dtilt combos into Jab (not sure), Ftilt does 11% and is pretty quickly and Utilt has very low start up lag while being a late kill move (kills at around 170%) and is a good option to use after you stop your shield.
- A lot of good kill moves (Fsmash, Uair, Uthrow, Bthrow at the ledge, PSI Magnet at the ledge)
- His Dthrow combos into any aerial at low percents and at high %s you can do really nasty things, if they don't DI you can Dthrow -> uair then which is a pseudo hoo haa that kills early. If they do DI, you can still Fair then. If you're feeling confident you can try Dthrow -> Dair at high percents and in they don't tech you can kill then with a Uair, it's pretty stylish.
However, Lucas has 2 big problems:
1-) His grab is terrible, not only it has massive end lag but some parts of it just don't grab the opponent sometimes lol. That's a really big weakness since most of his combo game comes from Dthrow.
2-) His aerial game is somewhat weak. His aerials doesn't have much range so he tends to lose trades in the air.
I am honestly worried about Lucas, because having such a big weakness as a weak aerial game and having his most powerfull toll (Dthrow combos) impaired because of a terrible grab can really hurt him.
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Tell me did you watch ZeRo's analysis at all? Literally have NOTHING to say if you didn't get anything out of that video and it's your own fault for your ignorance if you didn't watch it cause of your personal problems with ZeRo's videos (a discussion I don't want to get into). You stated Lucas's tilts / aerials are not "particularly strong" and although the tilts can be arguable and his tilts are only decent (but no where bad either). you cannot say his aerials are weak. If you play Lucas enough then finding the opportunity to N-Air will come naturally and I'm always N-Air chaining people, it's great for punishing spot dodges / air dodges / laggy, or if the enemy is above in you in the air and you can just keep them in the air with N-Airs, additionally his N-Airs are difficult to punish in general if shielded as it can cross up on shields.
Look here: https://twitter.com/hysranai/status/611220561457508352
Went from the front to the back of the Ryu's shield and was able to immediately follow up with a shield and then roll away. There's landing lag but it's really minimal but of course this is match-up dependent and a faster character like Sheik could probably punish faster but as of late I haven't really been punished for using this move on shield. In addition to talk about his other aerials, his F-Air actually has a quite decent amount of range and the sweet spot on that move does a ton of damage and can kill and I usually find my aerial mobility makes this hard for the opponent to punish on shield as well. Up Air is a kill move with also very minimal landing lag and really the only downside to it is it's abysmal hitbox. B-Air is perhaps one of the best spikes in the game in my opinion considering how damn easy it is to land and ledge trumps into B-Air are godlike including I've been enjoying using this move in the neutral game more as well cause it has good range on it. D-Air is perhaps probably the worse of his aerials but I'm still experimenting it and doing full-hop D-Air into Up Smash and just going off-stage for D-Air spikes and I've been finding alright success with it and I hadn't played at all yesterday unfortunately.
To list a few more of Lucas's strengths. Z-Air and PK Fire are really good spacing moves with minimal end-lag as well and you should be giving the enemy a hard time of approaching you. Lucas's off-stage game can play really aggressive off-stage with all the tools he has such as D-Air / B-Air and I've occasionally have gotten kills with F-Air / PK Fire off-stage and after playing a lot more with Lucas I'm starting to really enjoy using his PK Thunder for gimping as well and in general I've gotten much better at using PK Thunder usage with Lucas after being convinced it was trash at first and even use it when the enemy isn't off-stage cause if you can control it well than it's a move that the enemy can't really avoid and punish. I also think Lucas's recovery is way better than what some people say it's for, he has three recovery options: Double Jump, Tether Recovery, and PK Thunder and that means he has three options for mixing up his recovery. I tend to use tether recovery a lot and some players may catch onto that and instead D-Air on the stage with say Falcon and when I condition to do that then I'll alternate to using PK Thunder or just double jump and PSI Magnet stalling off-stage could also throw off the enemy as well when mixing up your recoveries. Lastly I don't think PK Thunder's distance should be underestimated and it should most commonly be used when recovering really low which is why I like Dreamland since not a lot of characters can go that deep on Dreamland and make it back unlike Lucas. I'm also highly confident when players start to practice more that footstool combos not even just for Lucas will begin to become more relevant in competitive play and Lucas has a lot of them and in general has a lot of good combos outside of footstools.
This statement by Jigglystep is something I 100% agree with. Our F-Smash comes out fast and has a sweetspot that can kill pretty early. Up Smash is the strongest smash attack in the game IIRC but it's ridiculously laggy so I don't really want to bring it up but it does have super armor first four frames IIRC (can catch people off), it covers the ledge get-up options (enemy can only roll away and if you can read that you got yourself a early kill), and getting a hard read with this move in general is a free stock. Down Smash is also surprisingly strong and I actually favor this over Up Smash more because it's a lot less slower, has two hits after it to punish spot dodges, and is surprisingly strong. I've killed my friend's Ryu at like 100% with little rage (I was at 48%) from the middle of the stage and assuming he does have poor DI, it probably would've killed a little later or if I just used on the side of the stage and did something like ledge trump into D-Smash and this move also covers the ledge really good as well.
On the other hand I apologize for not seeing your response to my PK Fire post which is my own fault.
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Well I'm not disagreeing with any of that. The entire point I was saying earlier is that Lucas feels really modest, like they were somehow afraid he would be too good, but they had no problem making 90% of Roy's sword a sweetspot that KO's at 70%, Sheik's needles still aren't nerfed, et cetera.
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OnettGirl
Smash Apprentice
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To be perfectly honest I don't really care if Lucas ends up being bad. He gets to be a low tier hero again. Ive always seen Lucas as one of those characters that people primarily use because they love the character or the Mother franchise [to a lesser extent Ness but that was more in Brawl and Melee] and not so much because the character is good. So with that logic it's not really too shocking that Roy and Ryu are getting the spotlight. Honestly let them have the spotlight. We'll just sit back here and continue tinkering away with sunflower child. We just need more dedicated people to get info on him.
From what i've seen in the past few pages of this thread there's too much comparing him to other characters going on, like comparing him to Ryu, Roy, or Ness. Of corse Lucas is going to look lackluster compared to Roy and Ryu, have you seen how many people have been messing around with them? While Lucas might have been announced first they are the big highlights of this DLC because their strengths are much more noticeable, and in the terms of Roy he's pretty easy to use [in Ryu's case he's not easy to use but just so different and unique that people want to figure him out.] And of corse Lucas is going to look lackluster compared to Ness, we've had Ness since the game came out on the 3DS. We know a lot of stuff about him already and everyone's had ample time to use him. We've had Lucas for less than a week. There is still so much about his character we haven't explored. I also think we need to focus more on what Lucas can do for himself instead of his negatives, or at least finding out ways to work around those negatives rather than pointing them out and freaking out because "oh no he has a few weaknesses".
We all know his grab is pretty lacking compared to other tethers, we all know PKT is a gimpable recovery [that's certainly nothing new], but to be honest that's the only thing I can REALLY see wrong with him. And even if PKT is a gimpable recovery you have other options [hell, people saying he can get gimped due to spikes or marios cape or fludd, Villagers pocket or whatever need to realize the same can be said for a lot of characters, and many of those characters don't have as many different kinds of recovery options.] We have one of the easiest spikes in the game to land [well i've been inconsistent with it but I haven't gotten the timing down and i'm trying to get myself off of tap jump so I blame myself], one of the strongest up smashes, solid kill throws, PK hoo haa, an amazing zone game, great edge guarding tactics [I see a lot of people underselling PK Freeze in this regard], dthrow strings that Ness would be proud of, a footstool jab lock combo that Falcon would be proud of, arials that, while maybe not great are still kill moves, and he a bit heavier than you'd think...
That's all I can think of right off the top of my head but that's more than enough to show that Lucas HAS the tools, it's just going to take people a while. He's not a character you can just pick up once and get results with like Roy, he's going to take a lot of work. People just need to stay dedicated to him and i'm sure the really dedicated Lucas mains are going to rock the boat a bit.
From what i've seen in the past few pages of this thread there's too much comparing him to other characters going on, like comparing him to Ryu, Roy, or Ness. Of corse Lucas is going to look lackluster compared to Roy and Ryu, have you seen how many people have been messing around with them? While Lucas might have been announced first they are the big highlights of this DLC because their strengths are much more noticeable, and in the terms of Roy he's pretty easy to use [in Ryu's case he's not easy to use but just so different and unique that people want to figure him out.] And of corse Lucas is going to look lackluster compared to Ness, we've had Ness since the game came out on the 3DS. We know a lot of stuff about him already and everyone's had ample time to use him. We've had Lucas for less than a week. There is still so much about his character we haven't explored. I also think we need to focus more on what Lucas can do for himself instead of his negatives, or at least finding out ways to work around those negatives rather than pointing them out and freaking out because "oh no he has a few weaknesses".
We all know his grab is pretty lacking compared to other tethers, we all know PKT is a gimpable recovery [that's certainly nothing new], but to be honest that's the only thing I can REALLY see wrong with him. And even if PKT is a gimpable recovery you have other options [hell, people saying he can get gimped due to spikes or marios cape or fludd, Villagers pocket or whatever need to realize the same can be said for a lot of characters, and many of those characters don't have as many different kinds of recovery options.] We have one of the easiest spikes in the game to land [well i've been inconsistent with it but I haven't gotten the timing down and i'm trying to get myself off of tap jump so I blame myself], one of the strongest up smashes, solid kill throws, PK hoo haa, an amazing zone game, great edge guarding tactics [I see a lot of people underselling PK Freeze in this regard], dthrow strings that Ness would be proud of, a footstool jab lock combo that Falcon would be proud of, arials that, while maybe not great are still kill moves, and he a bit heavier than you'd think...
That's all I can think of right off the top of my head but that's more than enough to show that Lucas HAS the tools, it's just going to take people a while. He's not a character you can just pick up once and get results with like Roy, he's going to take a lot of work. People just need to stay dedicated to him and i'm sure the really dedicated Lucas mains are going to rock the boat a bit.
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
We can heal 30% off Sheik's recovery ;o
Does Magnet cancel work in the air?
Does Magnet cancel work in the air?
BlueberrySyrup
Smash Lord
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
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Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
I have my first tourney with Lucas tomorrow btw, wonder if anyone else from the scene has taken an interest in him. (I doubt it, I've heard more about Ryu and Roy as per usual.)
Lochy
Smash Ace
Lucas tournament rep. Go knock em dead kid.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
I was considering keeping track of Lucas tournament placements from this point on so that I could make a thread like the one I made for the Link boards. It really is useful to keep track of what's happening, and where.
Smashoperatingbuddy123
Smash Legend
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Just used lucas on the 3ds for now
Ah yes he feels great just like brawl days wonderful
Ah yes he feels great just like brawl days wonderful
Blasiancoolio
Smash Cadet
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From a brawl lover, happy to see Lucas back. Will keep him as a secondary, just for back air spike hype
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
Lochy
Smash Ace
Holy crap. This is the ultimate doubles partner for Lucas! (If you can use customs)
prOAPC
Smash Lord
I think I'll use him as a secondary, for me he is not as fun as before
prOAPC
Smash Lord
I'm playing with some friends, come and watch if you want www.twitch.tv/silverroy
extremechiton
Smash Lord
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A third problem i find is his range is lacking. Even though grab is a tether, and fsmash is a stick, they still get outspaced by normals from other characters. Zair and pk fire are his longest ranged moves, but pk fire has startup and end lag and zair can be tricky to hit with sometimes.
Also if dsmash gets shielded, the next two hits dont do anything.
BlueberrySyrup
Smash Lord
NEW COMBO VIDEO IS UP!!
Hope you guys enjoy!!
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3ahdlg/courageous_little_boy_a_lucas_combo_video/
Hope you guys enjoy!!
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3ahdlg/courageous_little_boy_a_lucas_combo_video/
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
If you give Lucas 50+ speed equipment it will make Nair auto cancel...
;_;
;_;
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
That's a sexy montage!
Nice work! ;D
Edit: Oh and they should really fix Lucas's shorthop... It should be the same as ness it's not fair ;(
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Chandeelure
Bandana Brigade Captain
I'm curious, what's the difference between Ness's and Lucas's Final Smash?
JimmyTheCaterpillar
Smash Ace
Literally absolutely positively nothing
Is anyone else so hopelessly bad with Lucas it's depressing? I put so much hope into him and I'm getting bodied by the CPUs. I don't even know what I'm doing wrong. I watched all the videos on him, and nothing seems to work.
NekoJubei
Smash Journeyman
I can't wait to use my non-existent Ness and Lucas Amiibos in Super Mario Maker omfg.
It's gonna be super trippy.. c:
Good thing we can unlock Mystery Suits without having the actual amiibo c:
It's gonna be super trippy.. c:
Good thing we can unlock Mystery Suits without having the actual amiibo c:
Is it because your spamming PK Fires or just dash grabbing? ;o
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Lord Retardus
Smash Cadet
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What if it's only based on amiibo that are already out at the time of the game's release? That'd mean we wouldn't get Lucas! D:
JimmyTheCaterpillar
Smash Ace
Patches m80. No worries.
Lord Retardus
Smash Cadet
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Whatever it is, it's super ambitious to have a game that uses so many different amiibo. And the fact that you don't need them to get the unlock is icing on the cake. I wasn't hyped for Mario Maker at all until E3, but this stuff plus the World Championship finals have me pretty happy with it.
That and M&L: Paper Jam. Good to have another M&L RPG, it seems like I'm the only person who liked Dream Team for what it was (though on replay it holds up less well)
That and M&L: Paper Jam. Good to have another M&L RPG, it seems like I'm the only person who liked Dream Team for what it was (though on replay it holds up less well)
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Tito Maas
Smash Ace
Actually, I was playing a perttyww good Mario the other day andj had a surprisingly easy time fighting him. I think Lucas actually hass the matchup advantage in everything except recovering high, but you can use a the rope snake as alternate recovery versus Mario, cover your recovery with PK Fire, or play centerstage as much as possible. It actually took like 3 matches for me to get my PKT2 gimped because I had my opposing Mario on the defensive most of the time.