Pit's recovery is simply too good

[TSM ZeRo]

Pit's recovery is very gimpable, he has many weaknesses. I've personally felt that not many people understand how to fight him yet, though, his grab game is very good, but not necessarily different from other characters who can do a lot out of theirs. Hard to say!

 

[Player -0]

Do you mind stating some of Pit's weaknesses?

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Do you mind stating some of Pit's weaknesses?

Very predictable recovery, you know at some point he's going to jump aerial or side B into you/above you. He has to. He also lacks the range to safely space you out as he's making it back.

 

[Player -0]

Very predictable recovery, you know at some point he's going to jump aerial or side B into you/above you. He has to. He also lacks the range to safely space you out as he's making it back.

I meant in general as well as recovery.

His recovery isn't SUPER predictable.
- He can go high and onto the stage while retaining jumps/not going into special fall.
- He can stall when someone challenges offstage
- If someone comes to challenge and you're in air you can: Jump, Aerial, Jump + Aerial, or cancel the glide to drop down. You can also do things such as jump out of the glide and airdodge to the stage if close enough.
- You can go under the stage if the character is slow.

Pit doesn't have a teleport and you could say the recovery is predictable but it can be pretty hard to punish if you still have a glide and at least 2 jumps. You can also use arrows to harass or even pop your opponent up if they're at a high enough percent. Arrows give a small stall too.

Yeah, I contradicted myself right there but whatever.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I meant in general as well as recovery.

His recovery isn't SUPER predictable.
- He can go high and onto the stage while retaining jumps/not going into special fall.
- He can stall when someone challenges offstage
- If someone comes to challenge and you're in air you can: Jump, Aerial, Jump + Aerial, or cancel the glide to drop down. You can also do things such as jump out of the glide and airdodge to the stage if close enough.
- You can go under the stage if the character is slow.

Pit doesn't have a teleport and you could say the recovery is predictable but it can be pretty hard to punish if you still have a glide and at least 2 jumps. You can also use arrows to harass or even pop your opponent up if they're at a high enough percent. Arrows give a small stall too.

Yeah, I contradicted myself right there but whatever.

I mean, I'm arguing it's predictable because I can personally punish it and so can other high level players I play with. From my exp, it is.

1.- Then you juggle him. I love it when they go up. Pit's weak from above.
2.- Stall? Then you stay in the stage.
3.- You can do all of that, regardless, you have to go through your opponent.
4.- Anyone can still go to the other side and wait. Even.... Link.

He has tools, is predicable, hard at times, just not invincible, all I'm saying.

 

[Player -0]

I mean, I'm arguing it's predictable because I can personally punish it and so can other high level players I play with. From my exp, it is.

1.- Then you juggle him. I love it when they go up. Pit's weak from above.
2.- Stall? Then you stay in the stage.
3.- You can do all of that, regardless, you have to go through your opponent.
4.- Anyone can still go to the other side and wait. Even.... Link.

He has tools, is predicable, hard at times, just not invincible, all I'm saying.

1. Pit can go to top platform or keep going also B-Reversing helps to get down.
2. If they're going offstage then they're probably in a staggered position because they then have to get back. During this time you can fly back on stage.
3. Is assuming your opponent jumps at you, if they do this there's pretty much a 50-50 whether they cover high and straight forward or cover below. They could do a rising aerial too with a sex kick or something like Mario Bair in which case you can airdodge through.
4. It's pretty much just a mixup so you can get to ledge. You can also fake out so they start running but cancel it and go back to the original edge.

 

[Vixen]

He also doesn't have a lot of options. It sucks going from ZSS who I adore her recovery, to it, where i lose stocks earlier than i would like.

Also I'm glad I'm not the only pit main who thinks his recovery is limited. >.>

 

[Pika_thunder]

He also doesn't have a lot of options. It sucks going from ZSS who I adore her recovery, to it, where i lose stocks earlier than i would like.

Also I'm glad I'm not the only pit main who thinks his recovery is limited. >.>

Lol at zero suit one of the WORST recoveries in the game being better than pit's recovery

 

[Player -0]

Lol at zero suit one of the WORST recoveries in the game being better than pit's recovery

ZSS' recovery is actually pretty good. Getting Down-B back every time you're hit is super good. Combined with you being able to wall jump out of it and ZSS having a really long tether is pretty good.

Basically harassing her is hard because she has Down-B and can flip back.

 

[Vixen]

Samus has:

*A decent double jump
*Boostjump via upb+jump simultaneously, rocketing her at slightly higher than Falco's initial jump - the highest jump in the game
*Down B, which can be wall jumped, the trajectory controlled, has a foot stool, a stronk hitbox, and can be jumped out of
*Down B refreshes when hit
*Two _EXTREMELY_ long tethers
*Aerial moves that come out quickly, and end quickly, meaning she can counter attack would-be harassment.

A good ZSS will usually not be edgeguarded. I actually have my entire region complaining about her recovery, because even our top professional-level players just can't wrap their head around the **** I do with her recovery,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx1jpwZtA6U#t=10m53s

an entire stock of good recovery options. :3

 

[kaizo13]

sorry but Pit's recovery is not predictable or limited

it's quite flexible and has a variety of options...

 

[Pika_thunder]

This thread should be called...

Kaizo13 is simply too salty

 

[kaizo13]

This thread should be called...

Kaizo13 is simply too salty

not salty at all, just giving some constructive feedback.

btw, weren't you the one that said ZSS had one of the worst recoveries in the game lol? that was a good laugh

 

[Pika_thunder]

not salty at all, just giving some constructive feedback

btw, weren't you the one that said ZSS had one of the worst recoveries in the game lol? that was a good laugh

All is see is salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt

I was talking about how some ledges glitch her tether. Or my local player is making excuses. In which case all I see is Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns

 

[kaizo13]

The only one that comes off as salty in here is you, cursing and name calling just to try and get your point across.

edit: oh, and spamming apparently

 

[Pika_thunder]

I like how like 3 people have agreed with you and many people have said that is's fine

 

[Player -0]

This is literally just flaming now, don't post unless you're giving some reasoning.

 

[Vixen]

The only one that comes off as salty in here is you, cursing and name calling just to try and get your point across.

edit: oh, and spamming apparently

Two of the best pit players have given you multiple examples of pits limitations. Maybe you should rethink your stance.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Lol at zero suit one of the WORST recoveries in the game being better than pit's recovery

The WORST recovery is Roy

 

[Angell]

The WORST recovery is Roy

Worst is definitely falco, hands down.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Worst is definitely falco, hands down.

at least Roy has a Hitbox on his up B

 

[TSM ZeRo]

1. Pit can go to top platform or keep going also B-Reversing helps to get down.
2. If they're going offstage then they're probably in a staggered position because they then have to get back. During this time you can fly back on stage.
3. Is assuming your opponent jumps at you, if they do this there's pretty much a 50-50 whether they cover high and straight forward or cover below. They could do a rising aerial too with a sex kick or something like Mario Bair in which case you can airdodge through.
4. It's pretty much just a mixup so you can get to ledge. You can also fake out so they start running but cancel it and go back to the original edge.

At this point we're arguing over nothing, I just think it's not as good as you put it to be and most people can do a better job at edgeguarding it.

 

[Player -0]

At this point we're arguing over nothing, I just think it's not as good as you put it to be and most people can do a better job at edgeguarding it.

Idk, you can try some of the things I've suggested (likely you have but whatever) and I'll watch some people more.

I feel like whether Pit will recover (Pit's main time of options) is mainly dependent on the part when an opponent comes offstage (if not then I'll talk later I guess). I've talked about the 50/50 option before and if the opponent goes offstage and guesses then Pit can usually recover (in my opinion, try this?).

If opponent stays onstage, let's assume Fox:
- Pit can cancel the glide early and attempt to use his jumps + Up-B to sneak to the edge. (Edgehog -> Drop down Shine -> Bair probably beats this, depends on timing and stuff probs).
- Pit can go straight to Fox and attempt to do a reaction thingy. From here if Pit can outspace Fox and dodge his attacks he's back to the stage but in a bad spot until he can get Fox off.
- Pit can go high with the glide and attempt to use his multiple jumps to space over Fox's Up-Air attempts and then recover on the top platform (if there is one). Since Fox will be falling back down Pit should be fine.



So pretty much at this point I'm just trying to give you an insight into what I think Pit can do and figure out if you know something I don't. This "debate" stemmed from Pit's weaknesses and you stated Pit has a very predictable recovery and while I somewhat disagree I think that Pit's recovery is currently fine. On that note, are there any other weaknesses that you think Pit has (also tell me if you can see a way through some of the stuff above)?

 

[SoniCraft]

I think Pit does have many other options for recovering than most other characters. If Pit has a predictable recovery, then so does 80% of the other characters. He has more than two jumps, a glide, and an up-b that can easily sweetspot. I wouldn't go far to say it's too good, but it's definitely better than most.

 

[Player -0]

I think Pit does have many other options for recovering than most other characters. If Pit has a predictable recovery, then so does 80% of the other characters. He has more than two jumps, a glide, and an up-b that can easily sweetspot. I wouldn't go far to say it's too good, but it's definitely better than most.

I believe ZeRo said that you can poke Pit out of his Up-B even if he does sweetspot. Relative to other characters Pit has a better recovery (if glide n' stuff) but I think predictability wise depends a lot during either the part where the opponent jumps offstage to harass or when the opponent is chilling onstage and Pit comes to him. If the opponent is on the stage I think Pit gets a free ledgegrab though.

 

[Angell]

I think Pit does have many other options for recovering than most other characters. If Pit has a predictable recovery, then so does 80% of the other characters. He has more than two jumps, a glide, and an up-b that can easily sweetspot. I wouldn't go far to say it's too good, but it's definitely better than most.

The up-b is so hard to sweetspot

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I believe ZeRo said that you can poke Pit out of his Up-B even if he does sweetspot. Relative to other characters Pit has a better recovery (if glide n' stuff) but I think predictability wise depends a lot during either the part where the opponent jumps offstage to harass or when the opponent is chilling onstage and Pit comes to him. If the opponent is on the stage I think Pit gets a free ledgegrab though.

Yeah, you can get hit easily. You have to wall him out from coming back.

The up-b is so hard to sweetspot

Even if you do, you still get hit.

 

[Player -0]

Yeah, you can get hit easily. You have to wall him out from coming back.



Even if you do, you still get hit.

Not sure if you missed my other post but I had some stuff to say here: (My post)

Spoiler

Idk, you can try some of the things I've suggested (likely you have but whatever) and I'll watch some people more.

I feel like whether Pit will recover (Pit's main time of options) is mainly dependent on the part when an opponent comes offstage (if not then I'll talk later I guess). I've talked about the 50/50 option before and if the opponent goes offstage and guesses then Pit can usually recover (in my opinion, try this?).

If opponent stays onstage, let's assume Fox:
- Pit can cancel the glide early and attempt to use his jumps + Up-B to sneak to the edge. (Edgehog -> Drop down Shine -> Bair probably beats this, depends on timing and stuff probs).
- Pit can go straight to Fox and attempt to do a reaction thingy. From here if Pit can outspace Fox and dodge his attacks he's back to the stage but in a bad spot until he can get Fox off.
- Pit can go high with the glide and attempt to use his multiple jumps to space over Fox's Up-Air attempts and then recover on the top platform (if there is one). Since Fox will be falling back down Pit should be fine.



So pretty much at this point I'm just trying to give you an insight into what I think Pit can do and figure out if you know something I don't. This "debate" stemmed from Pit's weaknesses and you stated Pit has a very predictable recovery and while I somewhat disagree I think that Pit's recovery is currently fine. On that note, are there any other weaknesses that you think Pit has (also tell me if you can see a way through some of the stuff above)?

 

[Angell]

Even if you do, you still get hit.

God dang it!

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Vixen @ TSM ZeRo
People just don't wanna believe. You get knowledgeable players, who know the ins and outs to their characters, and then they try to tell people the strengths and weakness but people just don't care. They just wanna be pleased, and you guys aren't agreeing with them. You ain't gonna make no believers out of these people. They already made up their minds, pit's recovery op and unfair to these select few...lol

 

[Angell]

This thread should be called...

Kaizo13 is simply too salty

Lol best post!

 

[Angell]

All is see is salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt salt

I was talking about how some ledges glitch her tether. Or my local player is making excuses. In which case all I see is Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns Johns

Why did this receive a warning?
Edit: sorry for double post.

 

[moogle]

@ TSM ZeRo :
Hi! I offer some constructive criticism, while also attempting to contribute to this topic.

I think you have an excellent punish game and an excellent neutral game. I've been watching your Pit videos for a couple months now, and the one thing I frequently see that I don't like is your usage of glide when recovering. Here are two situations that stand out most strongly to me, where your risky/predictable use of glide leads to your death:

1. ledgehop glide
a) vs Sethlon (Roy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8MSu3-ZEM#t=5m46s
b) vs Pink Fresh (Lucas) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx3tM7amNxg#t=6m50s
c) vs ChuDat (Kirby) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0ZCKYn5Fwg#t=5m16s (should have been dead )

2. gliding just after your hitstun ends
a) vs Sethlon (Roy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8MSu3-ZEM#t=11m16s
b) vs Sethlon (Roy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8MSu3-ZEM#t=13m01s
c) vs Pink Fresh (Lucas) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGOfECDqD0#t=2m44s
d) vs M2K (Fox) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Th7TDexnCI#t=2m9s

Surely, glide doesn't always get punished in these situations, but I feel the risk-vs-reward in these scenarios is definitely in favor of your opponent. The reward is that you make it back to the stage and probably land a hit. The risk is that you get put offstage without your glide, which severely hampers Pit's ability to make it back to the stage.

I feel the biggest difference between your Pit and Armada's Pit is that Armada is much more conservative and selective in his use of Pit's glide. As a result, Armada gets in far fewer situations where he's offstage and unable to recover.

To bring this all back to the topic at hand, I feel you underrate Pit's recovery, which is mainly due to how you use glide. I know that this topic is fairly subjective, but I side more with @kaizo13's and @Player -0's arguments. I'd say Puff, Samus, and Mewtwo have better recoveries than Pit, but he might have the 4th best recovery in PM. I don't know... I haven't put as much thought into ranking the recoveries.

EDIT: I hope you'll see this before SKTAR 3... I'll be rooting for you, ZeRo!

 

[Player -0]

Recoveries depend a lot on the opponent's tools to mitigate them too.

For example, Link's recovery is pretty awesome vs. someone like Ganon that can't do anything while Link is bomb jumping, this is assuming the Link DI's in the right direction (Not towards Ganon usually). Vs. someone like Pit, Samus, a multi-jump character, or any character with a sufficient projectile, Link's bomb jump becomes more or less useless and he'll have to rely on AGT's and his spin attack (still pretty good).

Another example would be Pikachu's recovery. Pikachu's recovery is pretty much always good with him having a floatier nature, skullbash helping a lot with horizontal recovery, and an absolutely crazy Up B (quick attack). With Pikachu now being able to perform the QaC, ledgehogging then punishing landing lag is no longer viable if Pikachu lands on stage (and QA doesn't finish in the air). A character like Snake (maybe theoretically Yoshi too, edgehog + eggs 2gud) will have a much better time edgeguarding Pikachu compared to a character like Ganon.




Looking back on this I'm not really sure why I made this post other than to remind people that different recoveries are good vs. different characters (Except CF's, his sucks no matter what).

 

[Vixen]

People calling Falco's recovery bad are obviously new players who have never fought a good Falco before. Dude has one of the BEST recoveries in Melee/PM.

 

[mimgrim]

.....How does Falco have one of the best recoveries in the game, for either Melee or PM? That..... Just doesn't make sense. e_e

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

.....How does Falco have one of the best recoveries in the game, for either Melee or PM? That..... Just doesn't make sense. e_e

looks like u got pranked, again

 

[Life]

Falco's recovery is poor in terms of distance, but if he's in range it's surprisingly hard to do anything about unless you can eat his double jump. Not nearly as good as Fox's though, at least he's not instadead if he's forced to upB.

 

[Angell]

People calling Falco's recovery bad are obviously new players who have never fought a good Falco before. Dude has one of the BEST recoveries in Melee/PM.

Lol

Edit: you better be trolling.

 

[kaizo13]

@ TSM ZeRo :
Hi! I offer some constructive criticism, while also attempting to contribute to this topic.

I think you have an excellent punish game and an excellent neutral game. I've been watching your Pit videos for a couple months now, and the one thing I frequently see that I don't like is your usage of glide when recovering. Here are two situations that stand out most strongly to me, where your risky/predictable use of glide leads to your death:

1. ledgehop glide
a) vs Sethlon (Roy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8MSu3-ZEM#t=5m46s
b) vs Pink Fresh (Lucas) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx3tM7amNxg#t=6m50s
c) vs ChuDat (Kirby) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0ZCKYn5Fwg#t=5m16s (should have been dead )

2. gliding just after your hitstun ends
a) vs Sethlon (Roy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8MSu3-ZEM#t=11m16s
b) vs Sethlon (Roy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf8MSu3-ZEM#t=13m01s
c) vs Pink Fresh (Lucas) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGOfECDqD0#t=2m44s
d) vs M2K (Fox) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Th7TDexnCI#t=2m9s

Surely, glide doesn't always get punished in these situations, but I feel the risk-vs-reward in these scenarios is definitely in favor of your opponent. The reward is that you make it back to the stage and probably land a hit. The risk is that you get put offstage without your glide, which severely hampers Pit's ability to make it back to the stage.

I feel the biggest difference between your Pit and Armada's Pit is that Armada is much more conservative and selective in his use of Pit's glide. As a result, Armada gets in far fewer situations where he's offstage and unable to recover.

To bring this all back to the topic at hand, I feel you underrate Pit's recovery, which is mainly due to how you use glide. I know that this topic is fairly subjective, but I side more with @kaizo13's and @Player -0's arguments. I'd say Puff, Samus, and Mewtwo have better recoveries than Pit, but he might have the 4th best recovery in PM. I don't know... I haven't put as much thought into ranking the recoveries.

EDIT: I hope you'll see this before SKTAR 3... I'll be rooting for you, ZeRo!

thank you for this, i appreciate the video links. i too believe that the majority of instances of @ TSM ZeRo getting hit out of glide were due to poor choices on his part. Zero is a great player, but i do feel he isn't as conservative as he should be when it comes to glide and it's why he ends up getting punished. Probably why he doesn't see Pit's recovery to be as good as it really is.

to go as far as to call Pit's recovery limited and predictable?
...can't agree with you there ZeRo