Pit Matchup Discussion - Toon Link. (MT linked)

[Hayang]

I haven't seen a Pit boards matchup thread for this week or last week, so if maniaclyrasist doesn't mind, I'm taking the chance to start a thread on a matchup I've recently been pondering.

Yes, I realize there are many matchup reviews being requested from other boards right now, but let's keep one going on here about a character we haven't already discussed.
(I was in the middle of typing this long thing up when like 3 new matchup threads popped up out of nowhere, and I don't feel like saving this for later. If we are busy with things we can take our time; we don't have to constrain discussions to a week.)

Master Match-Up Thread

10/16: I think I'll hold the invitation to the TL boards until we are well on our way with the other matchup discussions on other boards. If you think otherwise please say so.

10/17: Thanks Maniacly. :D

Pit vs Toon Link (I'll put up a more interesting picture soon!)

Toon Link, it seems to me, is an extremely versatile character; no two TL's I've played ever seemed very much alike save a few tactics they had in common (Bair rush, Projectile spam).

I think this is a very interesting matchup and it hasn't been very well discussed. so discuss!

I would put a Pros/Cons list here like previous threads but the TL boards didn't seem to have a definitive guide I could leech from, so I give you the "Stats" of Toon Link as evaluated by JesiahTEG:

Stats

Overall Offense: 3/5

Quickness: 3/5
Quickness is the ability to attack without being punished, and also the ability to punish your opponent's mistakes. Toon Link is quicker than a lot of characters, but his moves lack the amazing speed required to constantly punish your opponent, whether it's them missing their attack, or Toon Link punishing out of shield. Snake's Ftilt and Marth's Dancing Blade are examples of extremely fast moves.

Range: 3/5
Toon Link can outrange a good amount of the characters, but can't rely on spacing like Marth or DK can. Spacing is not a central part of Toon Link's game, but he can use it to his advantage in a good amount of matchups.

Priority: 4/5
Toon Link has a sword with a disjointed hitbox, so naturally he's going to have more priority than a ton of the cast. Other characters with swords, like Metaknight or Marth, or just plain retarted characters *cough Snake cough* can rival Toon Link's priority.

Power: 3/5
Toon Link's main problem is that he has trouble scoring kills, but he's not completely helpless like characters such as Sonic or R.O.B. He's more along the lines of Falco/Metaknight when it comes to killing.

Overall Defense: 4/5

Speed: 4/5
Speed refers to Toon Link's ability to run away from enemies when they get close. His running speed is great, and his spotdoge/roll are good.

Projectiles: 4/5 Toon Link's projectiles are amazing, and can keep around 90% of the cast far away, or at the least, force them to approach, which really highlights Toon Link's defensive game. R.O.B. and Pit are pretty much the only characters that have better projectiles than Toon Link.

Weight: 3/5
Toon Link is about middle on the weight list, give or take a few spots. He dies relatively easy compared to the characters that are above him, do don't expect to be living past 130 most of the time.

Recovery: 4/5
Toon Link's recovery is amazing. This is a result of the ridiculous range of his Up B, and his amazing aerial DI. The only real way Toon Link is going to be dying most of the time, is by destructing off screen...Otherwise, you should make it back to the stage almost everytime...Not to mention the fact that he has his tether recovery too, for more options.

Versatility: 5/5

Close Range-3/5
Like stated before, the only real way Toon Link can fight up close with decent results is either by fighting vs a slower character, or by using quick attacks like his Jab Series to get your opponent away from you. Most of the time, if you try and attack out of shield, your opponent can get their shield up or spotdodge your retaliation.

Mid Range-5/5
This is where Toon Link excels the most. At Mid Range, all of your projectiles will hit your opponent, and you can swat them away when they get close. You have many options at mid range...You can camp, move to long range, move to close range, bait an approach...The possibilities are endless really.

Long Range- 5/5
Toon Link's projectiles reach across almost every stage, his arrows having the most range. His long range game is top tier, along with R.O.B.'s and Pit's, although vs Toon Link, they beat him out in terms of camping. At any rate, staying at Long Range allows you to outcamp other characters like Olimar easier, who relies on Mid Range camping.

Mix Up Game- 5/5
Toon Link can easily switch between Short Range, Mid Range, and Long Range with success. At any range, he has a huge variety of options that allow him to stay unpredictable under any conditions.

===========================

Pit - 5:5 Even This was supposedly Jesiah's matchup prediction, seeing as he had no write-up accompanying his numbers.

Your thoughts?

 

[Ryos4]

lol blue toon link isnt timed with the others. That is how us blue toon links are, we dont follow the group. lol.

about what the match up against toon link? Well i do play both characters.

All in all pit has a disadvantage in my book. Toon link is tiny with a wide array of weapons. Faster in every aspect and stronger too. Though his smashes are a lil slower. He and pit probably have similar range, though pits ftilt is pretty long ranged. A good toon link can cause some serious mayhem in mid range. Its not really that hard to trap someone within all 3 of his projectiles at once. Pit probably does best at mid range distance, however toon link definitely plays better then pit does in mid range.

Meh there are tons of reasons, but ill just leave it at that.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Interesting read. Overall, I agree with 50:50. Both are speedy characters with solid projectile games. Pit is a better edge-guarder in my opinion, but Toon Link has greater range. And Pit's ledge game is just insane.

 

[Coffee™]

if maniaclyrasist doesn't mind, I'm taking the chance to start a thread on a matchup I've recently been pondering.

Course not. Do you still want me to write the summary for the matchup though?

10/16: I think I'll hold the invitation to the TL boards until we are well on our way with the other matchup discussions on other boards. If you think otherwise please say so.

Doesn't make a difference really. The more information we are getting about TL the better and easier it will be to actually start a discussion about him. (I'll post in TL boards and get them to come over).

And on topic, In my experience Toon Link gives Pit one hell of a time. His projectile game doesn't really phase you in comparison to other players due to your reflectors and your ability to outcamp him with your own arrows, but close up TL is pretty similar to Marth in that he out ranges you pretty easily. If Marth is about a 60:40 to Pit, I'd give TL a 55:45 over Pit.

I'll edit in a bit more later on.

 

[Jellyfishn]

Yeah I would say its about a 5:5. Maybe advantage Toon Link, but most of the Pit matches I have had have been really close. Pits arrows definitely put a big block on a lot of spamming options for TL, and a TL that tries to spam too much against pit can be punished. However, that being said, there are many ways to get around the fact that you have reflectors. Also, TL's Zair is too good for spacing.

 

[Bomber7]

yeah, I can lean toward a 5:5. sure Pit has 2 ways to reflect projectiles and stuff, but theres notthing protecting his head from a bomb(so much like wolf lol). TL has a better aerial game than pit. I used to play as pit in my early experience of Brawl and i really found no fluent aerial movement for him, unlike metaknight who I know is very fluent in the air. Spamming the bow, well, depending on what happens can be truble for toon link due to major outrange and quickness of the attack compared to TL's bow. Otherwise Tl's sheild can black it or TL and just easily manuver himself into range and punish Pit.

 

[Aminar]

TL is a fun fight. I find that good use of airdodges and jumping can help against the spam and Pit's multiple jumps help a ton. Abusing Pit's ledge game is helpful too. TL has more trouble killing than Pit does as far as I can tell which is Pit's saving grace, he can edgeguard toonie well enough to kill at low percents while being very hard to edgeguard for TL.

 

[Bomber7]

well ledgeguarding is only one way to kill, and it seems pit has that advantage there that he can out ledgeguard pit, then again with sauske's edge skills I could be proven wrong *cough* Dair.

 

[Hayang]

I think that Pit can win if he plays TL at very close range and at long ranges.

When TL and Pit are close together, Pit's jab combo is faster/more effective and his grab game is better, and I don't think TL is very effective at point-blank range. Plus Pit can punish some of the laggy close-range moves TL might use.

If Pit gives TL any space, however, a good TL will shove a good Zair or Bair into his face. If TL does otherwise what I usually do is Hyphen smash-chase him or run to SH-nair.

Whenever Toon Link tries to give himself some space, against decent TL's I usually retreat as well and extend the distance between us so that my arrows outcamp his projectiles and force the Toon Link to approach.

Pit should not approach TL when he pulls away from close range because TL can abuse spacing VERY well at medium-close range. Plus it's generally better to be at a range where you can have your mirror shield ready to reflect any projectiles TL throws to facilitate his apporach.

Also I'd just like to point out that all this applies only to Toon Links who know what they're doing; there is such a noticeable difference in skill between the good and bad TLs. I find TLs that use spaced Zairs and Bairs effectively can shut out a lot of Pit's approach options, while TLs that are smash and laggy-aerial happy can easily approached and punished.

As for things that work on Pit, I find that advancing Bairs are quite potent and I've had some TLs do what could be called a Bair Ken Combo on me when I approached carelessly. Bombs, I believe, are Link's best projectile here because they are least susceptible to reflection and make the best setups for attacks.

Overall I'd say that the matchup is around 50:50 even, plus or minus a five depending on the playstyle of the TL. I'll post more later.

 

[kown]

i played santi in pools and we each won a game. 1-1. (you only play two games) so id say the match up is even.

 

[Coffee™]

i played santi in pools and we each won a game. 1-1. (you only play two games) so id say the match up is even.

Go get some vids Kown, or your opinion doesn't matter. ^_^

 

[Dark Popo]

lol blue toon link isnt timed with the others.

Lol x]


I decided to use Pit as my secondary a few days ago, I hope it's a good choice behind my Ice Climbers.

 

[kown]

Go get some vids Kown, or your opinion doesn't matter. ^_^

sadly i agree.

 

[Coffee™]

So what is this matchup?? 55:45, 50:50, 60:45 and?? are they're any other tips that anyone might want to include in the matchup summary?

 

[AndrewCarlson]

50:50 seems like the general consensus.

 

[Hayang]

There's only been one post by a alleged TL mainer. We need a little more on this matchup; otherwise we are in danger of speculating.

 

[Sosuke]

As for projectiles, It's pretty even if both players know what they're doing.
As for approaching, from long range, TL should be approaching. In a mid-close up fight, pit should be approaching. Pit has sorta a disadvantage when approaching.
In the air, its pretty close... uh Pit for killing, TL for raking up damage.
Pit is at a disadvantage when above/below TL.
Pit's should watch out for projectiles hitting their Up-B (if they even need to use it).

Thats all I got for now. =P

 

[QUIVO]

I've played forward's, kown's, and Dr. x's pits.

I'd say if you're approaching, powershield the projectiles as you get closer.

A lot of Tlinks airdodge > zair. You can either powershield, shield, or spot dodge. I'd recommened powershield to attack, or spot dodge. They can follow up with a bomb, nair, bair (sometimes), ftilt (at low percents), up b, and usmash.

If the tlink is up close and left vulnerable, jump out of the shield and nair.

Over b is decent if the tlink is close. Spacing is important.

Occasionally the wingdash will kinda deflect bombs.

If you're far away as pit, arrows will work against TLink if you use them intelligently.

Try to predict arrow cancels and powershield them.

Edge guarding Tlink is hard, I can't really say how you should edgeguard, maybe just arrows?

Tlink's kill moves include uair, usmash, hyphen smash, fsmash, and fair. Usmash kills pit at around 114% so look for that. THe rest really depend on the stage placement.

I wouldn't say there's really a stage to counterpick against Tlink. It just comes to you and your opponents personal preferences for best/worst cp stage.

Watch out for WoP like movements with Tlink. He can easily move around your shield with aerials.

IMO, the matchup is 60/40 or even.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

In this match up, I see Pit camping to be something that could be problematic for Toon link since Pit can aroows spam afar and retreating Nair they get close so that you can knock them away for more arrow spam... Also, the arrows destroy Toon link's recovery back to the edge if they hit him...

Anyways, I find that once you get Toon Link in the air and you are relatively level with him, you have the upper hand with up-air and nair/fair chasing.

 

[QUIVO]

Oh yea, Tlink's Zair and bombs can cancel Pit's arrows. Maybe even boomerang

 

[kown]

QUIVO IS IN THE HOUSE!.....i think the match up is even. but i think Pits arrows can be canceled out by every projectile TL has. Watch out for TLs doing Zair to Upsmash...maybe its DI able but it didnt seem that way online. after thnking about it more id say 60 - 40 Tls favor.

 

[Hayang]

I'm thinking a mix of SH-arrows curved down, arrows held for a half second longer, and ground arrows that are hilled will take care of any blocks TL may do. That's how we always deal with dodges and blocks, isn't it?

I don't really know about arrow gimping against TL, since he has great horizontal and vertical recovery with his up-B. An arrow or two won't stop him from returning unless he's at at least 140% when arrows will start to have some hitstun and knockback. I think AR gimping is okay for characters with up-Bs that have slowish vertical movement. It's worked for me on TLs a couple of times.

 

[QUIVO]

zair > usmash is di-able and airdodge-able for the most part.

Arrows COULD gimp Tlink if say that the tlink was far off under the stage and the pit shot him with the arrow so that it stole his jump.Other than that not really.

BTW, Dr. X has mirror-shielded my up b as i recovered a few times.

 

[Sosuke]

^thats sad man.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Has anyone tried Mirror Shielding Toon Link's Up-B? I know it works against Link, but I never bothered to try it against Toon Link. And I believe charged arrows would pass through any of Toon Link's projectiles.

EDIT: So Mirror Shield does work.

 

[QUIVO]

^thats sad man.

It's not like all of our matches are serious : P
We've played a lot. Out of all of our tournament matches I'm pretty sure he's never mirror shielded it.

 

[Hayang]

It sounds really risky to mirror shield TL's up-B, unless it's aimed very horizontally; even timing a ledge hog sounds safer against TL.

Like Maniacly said, if Marth is a 60:40, TL seems like a 55:45 at worst. I'll summarize some of the points we've made so far later so we can point more things out.
Matchup numbers are weird, by the way. I dont get the feeling that they actually represent a win ratio anymore.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I know that the Ike boards gave up on numbers and instead only provide a guide for the player to beat the given character. It's a good idea since match-up numbers usually lead to disagreement.

 

[Coffee™]

Like Maniacly said....

It's just Maniac for short =/

Pit is at a disadvantage when above/below TL.

If Pit is above TL well yea he's at a fairly decent disadvantage, but TL has to remain careful of Pit's Dair which has a pretty large hitbox. As far as being under TL and having a disadvantage I don't think so. Pit's Up Air will outprioritize TL's Dair provided Pit is only hitting TL with the blades which means Pit has to be at a sort of an angle to avoid being hit but with approiate spacing its not all that difficult.

 

[QUIVO]

So TL's Uair < Pit's Dair? His Dair is faster, but I'd imagine if the TL had good timing the pit couldn't dair.

Pit's Uair definitely out prioritizes TL's dair, but most TL's don't use that much, especially if in the air.

 

[kown]

So TL's Uair < Pit's Dair? His Dair is faster, but I'd imagine if the TL had good timing the pit couldn't dair.

Pit's Uair definitely out prioritizes TL's dair, but most TL's don't use that much, especially if in the air.

that depends on where u aim the dair...and where we aim the upair...but most of the time pits upair out prioritizes TL's dair

 

[Coffee™]

As you said it's going to depend on the timing. TL's Uair has more priority but Pit can avoid Uair and score the hit with his Dair on TL if spaced properly.

 

[kown]

Im curious...Does Pits angel ring...or Upair bounce TL's bombs?

 

[Doctor X]

Yeah, mirror shield can work, but it's not very reliable against TL. His upB is just too fast. You have to anticipate when he's going to use it, and because it gets so much height and can auto-sweetspot so early he's got way too much freedom to predict, and even if you get lucky enough to pull it off chances are he'll just grab the edge or land on the stage anyway since it doesn't send him very far out at all.

Most of the time when I tried it against Quivo I'd get hit. I never pulled it off or really even bothered to try in tournament. If you ask me you're much better off staying on the stage and trying to shoot him with arrows. They probably won't gimp him since his recovery has way too much height, but damage is damage so you might as well.

I *have* gimped Q before with a fair, but only once, and likely because he wasn't expecting it. I don't think this is reliable either, but it may be worth looking into. I haven't had a chance to really examine the options since Q's a jerk and moved to Columbus in September.

 

[Doctor X]

Im curious...Does Pits angel ring...or Upair bounce TL's bombs?

Both can, but they won't reflect them to such an extent where it'll really be useful. Same with the mirror shield, which just sends the bomb down into the floor in front of you. Sometimes the bomb will go off and may or may not damage you. I'm not sure what determines this.

 

[QUIVO]

You should've came to seasons beatings scrub!!! Forward's Pit was awesome. Mainly because it was smart.

 

[Doctor X]

You should've came to seasons beatings scrub!!! Forward's Pit was awesome. Mainly because it was smart.

Had a wedding to go to, Kel had to work, plus johns.

 

[darkspatan117]

Andrew Pit Dtilt outranges everything TL has on the ground except maybe fsmash

 

[QUIVO]

Too bad most TL's stay in the air.

 

[Sosuke]

We aint Falco! >=o