Pikmin Type; Battle Methods

[Denti]

Pikmin Type; Battle Methods

This thread discusses which pikmin types are:
1. better in certain MUs
- ex. yellow pikmin aren't effected by pikachu's electrical attacks and go straight threw the electricity and still hit pikachu.
This link might help you choose the stage you want for better pluck percentages.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212786
3. What pikmin moves out prioritize certain moves and which ones don't.
- ex. Falco's Dair beats all of olimar's Up smashes except yellow

I won't be doing anything for Olimar's Tether (Up special) because the priority is always the same.

Pikmin Frame Data

FAIR- 15 13 12 5 14
DAIR- 16 14 12 8 14
UAIR- 24 22 16 9 22
BAIR- 13 13 12 5 13
F-smash- 15 15 13 9 18
F-smash H- 12 11 9 6 13
F-smash C- 21 21 18 12 25
F-smash CH- 16 15 12 8 18
D-smash- 13 12 11 6 15
D-smash H- 10 9 8 4 12
D-smash C- 18 16 11 8 21
D-smash CH- 14 12 15 5 16
U-smash- 15 15 14 9 16
U-smash H- 12 11 10 5 13
U-smash C- 21 21 19 12 22
U-smash CH- 16 15 14 9 18


Snake

Snake's Tilts
Snake's Up-Tilt
Olimar's F smash:
RYBWP The pikmin gets hit away

Olimar's Pikmin Toss:
RYBW Hit's the pikmin up up and away, or kills it.
P Cancels eachother

Olimar's Fair and Bair:
RYBWP Uptilt beats it

Olimar's Dair:
RBW Loses to the up tilt
YP They cancel each other.

Snake's F Tilt (first and second hit of the F tilt did the same results)
Olimar's F smash:
RYBWP The pikmin get Hit away

Olimar's Pikmin Toss:
RYBW Hit Away
P Cancels each other out.

Olimar's Fair and Bair:
RYBWP Snake's F tilt wins.

Snake's Down Tilt

Olimar's F smash:
RYBWP The pikmin get hit away

Olimar's Pikmin Toss:
RYBWP Snake's Down tilt beat it. On a side note, the pikmin wont get hit away if tossed correctly at snake, just a little bit above the crouching snake is when the pikmin will latch and not get hit away.

Snake's Jab
Olimar's F smash:
RYBWP The pikmin get hit away

Olimar's Pikmin Toss:
RYBWP The pikmin get hit away

Olimar's Fair:
RBW Snake beats it
YP Olimar beats it. very hard spacing for direct collision with purple.

Olimar's Bair:
RBWP Cancels each other. on a side note, Bair comes from underneath, so you can always hit from underneath snake's jab.
Y Yellow Bair beats Jab

ALERT! snake's tilt's have insane hit box, so spacing for most of these Aerials is generally not a good idea because you will miss space or snake's hit box will gobble you up. These results are only when spaced for collision.




Mario!


Mario's specials.
Neutral B (fire ball)
Olimar's F smash:
-YBWP These F smashes stop mario's fire balls but has hit lag and then falls right where they hit.
F Goes straight threw and cancels the fire balls with no hit lag.

Olimar's Pikmin Toss:
YBW Stops Mario's fire balls but the pikmin stops and falls as well. There is hit lag.
R Continuously Goes threw and cancels the fire ball, no hit lag.
P Continuously goes threw the fire ball and cancels the fire ball, there is hit lag.

Olimar's Uair-Bair-Fair:
RYBWP All stop Mario's Fire ball but have hit lag.

Mario's side special! Cape
Olimar's pikmin toss:
RYBWP All reflect back at the same animation speed as thrown. but if the pikmin latches onto Mario then mario capes the pikmin aren't reflected.
Olimar's F smash:
RYBWP Normally when Olimar F smashes the pikmin land sideways then gets up and walks back. when mario capes olimar's F smash the pikmin lands and is already up and walking back to olimar.

Mario's Down Special. The flood
Olimar's F smash:
RYW These pikmin are pushed back fast and hard. even when returning to olimar the pikmin get pushed back.
P When the purple pikmin is in the air from F smash it will fly back just like all the other pikmin. but when returning to olimar the purple pikmin wont move from flood.
B The blue pikmin doesn't fly backwards at all. it doesn't go directly threw the flood. flood has little resistance against the blue F smash.
Olimar's Pikmin Toss:
RYW All get blown away from the flood.
B Doesn't go threw it but it doesn't fly away like the other pikmin, it has a little resistance againt the tossed blue.
P This one is the odd one.. when you toss the purple into flood the purple pikmin and flood have a hit lag. The purple then flys upwards but maintains pikmin toss animation. what was funny when i tested this out was i threw the purple and it went way up into the air then the purple came down 2 seconds later still in pikmin toss animation and hit mario lol

Mario's up special! his coin hit thing (name? lol)
Olimar's pikmin toss:
RYBW These pikmin get hit away up high. most of them i never saw again..
P The purple pikmin doesn't get launched but it does get hit up a little. Heavy pikmin lol.
Olimar's F smash:
RYBWP All get out prioritized and hit up up and away.


Personal Stuff
I will always be updating this thread until all is discussed. Let me know if i don't make sense and explain why please I'll change anything to help!

Also this is not challenging the MU discussion or Hilt's pikmin research. This is all battle and priority application of pikmin type, not mechanics or technique.


Rules for this thread... lol
- If you disagree, explain why please.
- when you post evidence as fact, make sure you've tested it.

I'm very laid back. I'll be updating this thread every day to every other day to once every 3 days. It's hard to convince one of my friend's to actually help me with this lol, they get bored

 

[Llumys]

I stopped reading when you mentioned Corneria.

 

[Denti]

dude, llumys. explain to me please why corneria is that bad. if you don't want to read this thread or any of my post then don't, don't post on everything i post about how you don't want to read my stuff. please! lol

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I've tried to do an idea like this and have talked to others about it. I've also seen two people in the past try to run threads for this idea. Good luck. I think it could be run a bit differently though and could be made to run more efficiently. I'll explain more later.

 

[Denti]

alright hilt! glad to hear i'm not the first to try and do this subject, i'm not a fan of giving up.. so i'll try hard to make this successful. I'm eager to hear what you have to say though. :D


I think when i get off work tonight I'm going to try a simple MU like Mario. I'll post about how i think things should go and then everyone else will tell me how to run this thread in a better way. I'll change anything to make things run smoothly

I'm opened minded from anyone's opinion

 

[Noa.]

I like the thread idea.

But I must admit that Corneria is horribly unfit for competitive play.

 

[Denti]

Thank you! i hope to make this thread a grand ole place!

:0 i see what you mean about corneria. I was throwing the thread together quickly and didn't bother to think about everything in and out. i saw yellow pluck percentage and pikachu was fresh in my mind lol. i just wanted to show what i meant, nothing is set in stone yet.

edit:
snap i just remembered! corneria is banned LOL i thought it was a counter ban. i took everyone there on AiB when i mained GaW a year ago

 

[Llumys]

I figure the post loses a lot of credibility when the owner believes Corneria is legal.

Anyway, I don't know about this thread. Plucking percentages and species usage are both discussed in match-ups, already. Also, Dan's already working on everything related to priority and whatnot.

 

[Denti]

when i read the MU thread it doesn't go into too much detail about all the pikmin type's. but this thread doesn't hafta decide stage choice, i can see that arguement.
about dan, he is too slow. I'm already up and running this thread and i am going to work on this everyday all the time i can get. I'm very serious about my olimar, and i don't aim for anything less than constant improvement. I'm mostly doing this thread for myself, and i don't want to wait for him.


BTW i just updated the main post about mario's specials. let me know if anyone likes the way i did it or if i could find a better way to do it. :D

 

[Llumys]

Mmkay... I don't think you realize how complicated his priority can get, though.

 

[Tin Man]

Mario's up special is called the "super jump punch"

 

[Denti]

Llumys what do you mean?

and thank you tin man :0

sorry i didn't update this last night, for those of you who care. I had some serious sickness, I will update it tonight though for sure! every night i hope to be working on this until all is done

 

[Llumys]

I'm not entirely sure, but from what Dan told me about his testing, some aspects remain unclear.

 

[DanGR]

I've got a fairly clear understanding of Olimar's "priority", but as you said, many aspects of it remain unclear at this point.

I'm not writing a thread about it because there's WAY, WAY TOO MUCH to write about. I began working on a write-up a little bit ago and it turned out to be 2 pages long SO FAR on "Pages" (Microsoft word equivalent on Macintosh). I hadn't even delved into the specifics. I was still on an overview explaining some artificial terms I was forced to make up and whatnot- new priority theories, specifically. It was going to take many more pages to talk about it in length. I can't take the time to do that- and trust me, I'd have to explain everything in detail for everyone to understand as clearly as I do... which isn't actually very clearly, considering how much I have yet to understand at the moment... ;(

If anyone has questions you guys can just PM me or catch me on AOL/iChat/Meebo. My username is to the left.

edit: And yes, I'm still testing.

Nice thread, now that I'm reading over it. Keep up the good work. ^_^b

 

[Llumys]

I'm glad you're actually putting work into this, though.

 

[Denti]

thanks

So i think I've come to the method of how I'm going to do this thread. I'm thinking I'll only discuss priority and have the frames of the moves. When i do post something I think I'll post it in an order of either the opponent's Tilts(jab also), Smashes, Aerials and specials. I don't think I should only do one character until 100% finished, I can switch around. Tonight I'm going to do Snake's Tilts. Next I can do whatever else you guys need help on, if not then I'm going to do an Olimar Vs. olimar one because i got owned my Llummys on AiB. I was Zombi btw LLummys lol, I suck so hard at that MU, but i do so well at other MUs.. oh well this thread is going to be my next step in getter better


Edit: Just did Snake's tilts!

Who next? I was thinking Olimar... lol I think it would be important for every olimar main to know which F smash ill beat what and such... but thats a lota work but it's gota happen.

 

[Llumys]

I don't think Olimar dittos are that complicated. You just need to know your character and out-smart the other player, which I did very well. ;P

 

[Denti]

It depends, certain people have a harder time adapting to certain MUs. Like i've never had a problem with luigi, i've only lost to one once out of my whole time with olimar. I find it funny how i can play oli but have a hard time adapting to fighting him 0.o

 

[Llumys]

Fight a good Luigi.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Denti]

i have, I've fought Chic, nappy and a few others. mostly wifi but some not, i just don't have a problem with the MU. I can pivot grab almost all their craziness.

 

[Llumys]

Then they're doing it wrong.

 

[DanGR]

I haven't had a ton of trouble fighting Biglou. *shrugs*

When I die early it's usually because I'll make a dumb mistake or he'll make a big read. I attribute that to him being the better player. If I was simply better then him I bet I could win a set despite the "horrible" matchup. >_>

And just to make a random point... Luigi doesn't have the tools to chase Olimar very reliably, which is a HUGE, underlooked part of the matchup.

Inb4tornado. You can grab, shield, fsmash it during the startup, use a yellow pikmin... lol... yellows are too good...

edit: I guess he's just doing it wrong... xD

 

[Llumys]

No doubt. ;D

Edit: LOL @ YOUR LOCATION

 

[BOB SAGET!]

WOW, llumys smart *** comments FTW.

 

[Denti]

That's the words i was looking for Dangr! pretty much Luigi cant chase me down and i read his approaches. I also never approach him in the air, i run away generally, maybe pivot grab or Uair depending on the spacing. The match is long of course... but i know when i shouldn't even bother attacking and just run lol

why is the subject luigi? LOL i just mentioned i barley lose that MU. I taught myself my olimar, so i can do certain MUs better.. some worse

am i doing an alright job so far for anyone who cares? speaking of Luigi, should i do him next? i think i just might.