Piklopedia - The Olimar Matchup Thread (1st ed. complete, open discussion)

[Ssbm_Jag]

First of all, you know that "other characters struggle with it, so that doesn't make it a bad matchup" isn't a valid argument, yes? Using that logic, nobody had a bad matchup with pre-patch Sheik.

Technically, you're right. My point is that there is nothing specifically to Olimar that makes him more susceptible to these things than any other character. Anyone can avoid chomp with roll or a quick aerial option. Olimar having a good pivot grab actually counters this landing option of Wario's pretty nicely. If chomp is a constant/repeated issue for the Olimar, I'd not say it's due to the character, but rather the player. Wario eating things like Pacman's fruit or intercepting little mac's recovery have more relevance in a MU discussion. Olimar is not entirely more susceptible to waft than other characters. D-air to waft works on olimar really early, but there are problems with that approach as seen in the videos linked. Abadango didn't get it off because a desynced pikmin extended the d-air's hitbox.

Third, I'd disagree that Wario eating pikmin has absolutely no bearing on the matchup. I was caught off-guard by it when I first played the matchup, so I didn't want others to have the same problem. Awareness of another character's options is never a bad thing, correct?

I'd say that it does not have any bearing on the MU because Wario doesn't gain anything from doing it. Yes, it might stop one of Olimar's attacks (like f-smash or pikmin toss), but consider that Wario does not have any special frame advantage after eating pikmin, so there's no significant gain other than maybe forcing the Olimar to worry about a new pikmin lineup. He might have a small frame advantage or disadvantage. Usually it's a disadvantage in these types of interactions, but I won't make the assumption. Also, if Wario is right of front of Olimar with his mouth open, Olimar could probably just d-smash and hit Wario or charge the f-smash until he closes his mouth like every character should do. Also, I personally don't like to count gimmicks that catch people off-guard in determining MU advantages/disadvantages, but if you do, I understand b/c there are a lot of MU's in smash.

I might have not read your post @Sky Pirate if the MU discussion was not continuous. I just read a string of consecutive posts and assumed that was it, and I don't remember seeing anything about pivot grabs. I definitely did mean to negatively criticize the discussion, because I felt the discussion was a little shallow or misguided (at least from what I had read) and the decision made was impulsive, but didn't mean to sound arrogant or condescending lol. My post is very removed from bias imo, since I included *all* the notable MU videos I could find or knew of. Also, I just want to make clear that I too think the MU is even or negligibly in one or the other's favor. When I said, "If anything, the MU is in Oli's favor," I was just saying that results have spoke against what this thread claims/claimed, and that there's no real reason to think Wario absolutely wrecks Olimar.

 

[Cat8752]

I saw on both your and Angbad's MU charts that you listed Cloud and Diddy as even. Care to give an explanation for what makes each of those MUs even?

 

[Myran]

Cloud has pretty good on stage presence, but he lacks a couple of things. First off his recovery can be gimped with a well timed yellow dsmash in almost every case, or a purple side-b on the 2 frame. Power shielding shuts him down a lot, and I like to consider him a better Ike. Once he has limit just respect it, and space him out with side-b and grabs and you should be able to win. I say even because even with all of this he can juggle Olimar pretty well, and still lands kills easily.

As for Diddy I say it's even because yeah we can catch Diddy on a lot of his approaches and snuff banana. However, he still has an amazing zoning move which is fair, and a lot of his moves just can't be punished sometimes. Add that to a couple confirmed kill setups off of dtilt or banana and it makes messing up become lethal quite often. Most of Olimar's MUs come down to can Olimar adequately keep them out of his face or apply his own set of pressure. These characters don't have amazing ways to stop those things so I like to call it even.

 

[Cat8752]

How do you deal with Cloud charging limit and refusing to approach?

 

[Myran]

I throw Pikmin and take the percent lead.

 

[Myran]

So I know it's not really something we're discussing atm, but I just typed up my thoughts on Olimar/Bayo and wanted to share. Feel free to ask questions.


So I'm a firm believe that Olimar vs Bayonetta is an even MU. Olimar has strong kill power on a variety of moves, and has one of the best throws for dealing with the character. On top of this he's able to negate a lot of her approaches with well timed side-bs and shielding. Side-b can intercept Downwards After Burner Kick making her bounce off mid air, even when a Pikmin is attached. Having her hit Pikmin in general whether they're attached to her or desynced near her can ruin her combos as well. All it takes is a slight extension on any of her combo moves to allow Olimar to air dodge out. Couple this with his ability to rack up damage with out ever having to approach, and it creates a scenario where Bayonetta has to approach. However her options for doing so are pretty linear, and it allows you to work around them to a decent extend.

The reason I say it's even is because if she touches me I can lose a stock in most scenarios. On top of this it's pretty hard for me to punish her off stage, and she can repeatedly hit me if I'm not smart about recovering from off stage. The biggest factor in this matchup is being smart with Pikmin placement, and really choosing my punishes wisely. Being able to rack up lots of damage from afar makes it very easy to play safe, and only go in when the punishes present themselves. So to sum it up if she touches me I will probably lose, but if played right she shouldn't be able to touch me unless they're a Pikmin on/around her to slow her down.

For those who mention witch time it's like any character fighting her, just be smart when you're near and whistle Pikmin back before they're countered.

 

[Cat8752]

If Bayo approaches with the grounded side b is the best option to throw an fsmash/purple side b before she hits us, shield and punish, or something else?

 

[Myran]

If you space it where she goes behind you slightly during the slide you can shield it, and get a guaranteed dsmash punish before she does the flip kick if timed right.

 

[Big O]

What's up Olimar mains and enthusiasts? The DK boards are discussing Olimar in our MU thread and would appreciate and opinions, strategies, and in-depth discussion you could contribute on the MU.

 

[Myran]

So I've been meaning to talk about why I think Olimar vs Sheik is even so I'll do it here.

First off I'll start with her recent nerfs. Needles have had their range nerfed, and she lost kill confirms off of dthrow at higher percents. The needle range nerf wasn't huge, but it allows us to have an easier time when throwing Pikmin from full stage. It can make the Sheik approach us which could allow us to catch her with a purple easier, and start to take stage presence. Next is the dthrow nerf. This is pretty self explanatory, but losing kill options on a character that struggles to kill is pretty huge. Add that to how we can block bouncing fish with Pikmin, and SDI out of uair at certain spacings and it allows for Olimar to live much longer than he should.

Next I'll talk about the general neutral game. At first I thought this MU was out of our favor because Sheiks frame data is so good, and in theory she'd be able to overwhelm us. However as time has gone on a few things have put holes through the theory. First off is how Pikmin lagging her moves can make her far more punishable, mix that with semi consistent power shields, and you can get pretty reliable Smash punishes on a lot of moves. Put that with a 2 purple lineup, and you can side-b in most scenarios to hit her or force a defensive option. 2 purples is pretty broken imo, and can give so much more freedom instead of committing to a smash or grab. The range it has also means it's useful in every scenario whether it be grounded or in the air. I think having at least 2 is key to controlling the MU as it shifts the gameplay from you dealing with Sheiks pressure to the other way around.

Olimar has pretty reliable kills on her too. Dsmash/dair can catch the 2 frame unless she snaps above the ledge, but even then I believe there's a way to punish her above ledge invincible ledge snap using Pikmin to extend vanish (I need to test it more). There's dthrow to rar bair at around 60-80 which can also kill, then standard uthrow or smash. Being able to force Sheik into shield with 2 purples is big because it allows you to grab or setup safe block strings.

The few important points to note when playing the MU are adequate use of purples to disrupt her and press offense, whistle armor through things (You can whistle a full set of needles and punish point blank), baiting Sheik into committing with movement when at the mid range (Punishing with purples here is key), and being on point with powershields. Yeah some of these sound ridiculous to consistently do, but as long as you can mix up your game plan they are constantly left guessing while you throw a wave of attacks at them.

On that same note it's even, because without 2 purples it can be leagues harder to deal with Sheik. She has solid combos and can ledgeguard well. It's similar to how I look at a lot of Olimar's MUs. As long as you can manage your Pikmin well, and keep up the pressure the opponent shouldn't get in.

 

[Freezie KO]

Gotta say that I find it impossible to get back on stage against a good Sheik, but admittedly I'm not playing at the highest level.
Her nair is so beastly.

By the way, Angbad posted his 1.1.6 MU chart on Twitter:

 

[koken]

Gotta say that I find it impossible to get back on stage against a good Sheik, but admittedly I'm not playing at the highest level.
Her nair is so beastly.

At edge guarding is annoying Her:

• Nair
• Fair
• Dtilt
• Grab
• Jab

If you roll, may catch you with a dash grab.
If you attack, may catch you with a shield grab.
If you get up, may catch you with a shield grab.
If you release and jump, may catch you with a Fair.

Most of the time I lose against a Sheik is because I can't get back from the ledge.

 

[Myran]

I disagree with his MU chart on so many levels. No way we lose most those MUs.

 

[C0rvus]

While I can't help but agree with Angbad's sentiment of Olimar not being very good at all, I think his chart is a bit too dour. I have legit never seen a "Don't bother" section on any other matchup chart. Boy those ain't no Brawl D3 vs DK, and you know it.

 

[Dalxp26]

Woah I just saw his MU Chart and I may not be a top Olimar player (yet) but i disagree with a lota lot of his picks. I feel Angbad gives up too easily against certain character which is why he constantly switches to Rosa or ZSS. It's okay to get bopped that's how you learn

 

[Freezie KO]

Regarding Angbad's MU chart:

• I think we win the Villager MU.
  
• I'm glad he put Bowser as "hard." I've struggled with that one since Bowser got his up throw patched, and I wondered why people considered it a good MU for Olimar.
  
• I think Cloud and post-nerf Bayo are hard, but not on the same level as the others in that tier.
  
• Luigi is weird. I feel like we should be able to wall him out, but his hitboxes and tornado are terrible for our item clanking hitboxes. And Angbad plays ConCon, so he should know this one.
• Do we win Lucario? I think so, but I'm not sure how often I've analyzed this at the highest level.

Woah I just saw his MU Chart and I may not be a top Olimar player (yet) but i disagree with a lota lot of his picks. I feel Angbad gives up too easily against certain character which is why he constantly switches to Rosa or ZSS. It's okay to get bopped that's how you learn

In his defense, there's only so many times you can get bopped by K9's Sheik before learning that it's futile. It's a putrid match up at the highest level. I'm still traumatized by their match when K9 was simply able to keep Angbad offstage or at the ledge for entire stocks.

 

[koken]

I'm totally agree with Sheik being an AWFUL MU.
I have proven myself and live it more than 6 times that a good Sheik can keep you out of the platform till you lose your stocks, without even caring about o sweating, just shield near the ledge and punish the decision.

Just for the record, the Sheik player that always defeats me, in the last tourney at June 11th, I lost WF and GF, but the differences were:
WF

• Lost with a solid 2 stock. I was playing with Olimar. Switch to Sheik.
• Lost on a very tight fight, just adapting to the character.
• Lost because I wasn't able to take the stock due to lack of knowledge for me using Sheik. Not a good fight for me.

GF

• Lost on a last hit fight, with the lead on my side and getting anxious. Lack of practice on using Sheik.
• Lost with a suicide because of a bad input, my bad.
• Lost on a bad fight on my side because I'm tired of losing against Sheik.

The main difference I can say, or tell, is that I didn't felt overwhelmed like when I was using Olimar.

In fact I'm very sad for exposing myself like this, because I really really have been trying to succeed on defeating Sheiks all this time. I really wish I could defeat them with Olimar, but I have been able to do so just once of 10 in tournaments approx.

I have to say that I'm very conscious it may be a personal issue not being able to defeat Sheik players, but I will not surrender on this topic.

By the way, I will tag @Angbad in order to read his opinions or commentaries for what we are talking about.

 

[Myran]

The issue is that you can't be saying it's an unwinnable MU just based of your own experiences. You may do poorly, but another Olimar could bop that same person. I'm one to make my MU charts off Olimar's potential since he has so many strong tools. I don't see that happening to often. A MU chart based off your experience isn't really a MU to me. I'm happy to hear thoughts. I do feel a lot of Olimars are quick to put down his capabilities. He can punish so many things if done right.

 

[koken]

Your point of view it's really important Myran . Because maybe it's just a mentality thing and a constant underestimation of Olimar, at least from my side.

Very often I do believe my defeats are because of my fault instead of a character limitation. When I play the correct way, Olimar feels great. But when I try to push, being agressive, gimp, follow every combo string I want or whenever I begin to play careless and I forgot the playstyle is meant to be for Olimar, it feels like trying to chop a tree with a knife, because it's my fault.

I don't believe Olimar has unwinnable MU. Some of them are just very hard, but against characters that have kill confirm, just one mistake and you lost the game, that feels sad.

 

[Myran]

Yeah it is hard. He requires a constant precision in his play that many other good characters don't have to have. His room for error may be smaller but when you don't mess up he can do crazy things.

 

[Freezie KO]

I admire you trying to find ways to win the match up against Sheik, but I find that your solutions are pretty situational and difficult to pull off in an actual match.

You say to lag her moves with pikmin and then punish, but there's very little we can do if she just short hops and nairs away to kill pikmin. Our mobility is hard to catch her. Her low landing lag makes a dash grab a very committal option. That's just not comparable to her oppressive frame data.

"Semi-consistent powershields" is way easier to say in theory than to do consistently against a good Sheik's pressure when she also mixes it up with aerials, dash grabs, and needles. It's way, way easier for her to do the things she needs to do than for us to powershield them consistently. Getting two purples is good for a while, as well, but they still die. And ultimately needles still disable them, range nerf or not.

The worst part is the ledge game though. You say Sheik struggles to KO, but it doesn't matter if we play the whole game at the ledge. A nair can cover neutral get-up, attack, or jump at the ledge, and she can dash grab a roll on reaction. Eventually she will get our stock, even if it takes a while.

And let's say we even have two purples before we get taken to the ledge. Well, thanks to the AI, when you get tossed off the ledge there's a pretty great chance you're just going to lose your pikmin anyway as they fall off the stage. And then when you try to whistle, there's a chance the whistle doesn't even work. What do we do then? We're basically taking 80% trying to get back to the stage if we don't lose our stock at that point.

I wouldn't go as far to say "unwinnable" because, sure, we can play perfectly and never get off the stage (if the pikmin AI gods are in our favor and we don't randomly whiff a critical move). But it's still a dreadful MU.

 

[koken]

In my opinion, it's very clear that we all agree the MU it's a pain in the #$% and it's absolutely difficult.

So let's focus on little tips we can share to succeed on this MU.

Does someone know if Dtilt trade with Sheik's Fair?

For example I know that using Purple Side B against a Bouncing Fish, increase the frame duration and hitboxes of the BF instead of stopping it or hitting the Pikmin at all. In fact, the game stop for few frames so can show the "critical" situation like when a counter occurs.
But if you throw any other Pikmin, may clash against BF and stop the movement.

We may also analyze our fights against Sheik players in order to extract the best decisions and movements.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

I admire you trying to find ways to win the match up against Sheik, but I find that your solutions are pretty situational and difficult to pull off in an actual match.

You say to lag her moves with pikmin and then punish, but there's very little we can do if she just short hops and nairs away to kill pikmin. Our mobility is hard to catch her. Her low landing lag makes a dash grab a very committal option. That's just not comparable to her oppressive frame data.

"Semi-consistent powershields" is way easier to say in theory than to do consistently against a good Sheik's pressure when she also mixes it up with aerials, dash grabs, and needles. It's way, way easier for her to do the things she needs to do than for us to powershield them consistently. Getting two purples is good for a while, as well, but they still die. And ultimately needles still disable them, range nerf or not.

The worst part is the ledge game though. You say Sheik struggles to KO, but it doesn't matter if we play the whole game at the ledge. A nair can cover neutral get-up, attack, or jump at the ledge, and she can dash grab a roll on reaction. Eventually she will get our stock, even if it takes a while.

And let's say we even have two purples before we get taken to the ledge. Well, thanks to the AI, when you get tossed off the ledge there's a pretty great chance you're just going to lose your pikmin anyway as they fall off the stage. And then when you try to whistle, there's a chance the whistle doesn't even work. What do we do then? We're basically taking 80% trying to get back to the stage if we don't lose our stock at that point.

I wouldn't go as far to say "unwinnable" because, sure, we can play perfectly and never get off the stage (if the pikmin AI gods are in our favor and we don't randomly whiff a critical move). But it's still a dreadful MU.

While I agree theres a certain degree of unbridled optimisim and being realistic to a human standard, Id like to say a few things.
1. lagging her moves mostly works well if you have th lead, if you have the lead she approaches u , being patient have the pikmin tick dmg is very important and dash grab is only viable if uve condition them to stay in place with maybe a shield or reverse condition them to expect u to roll

2.Purples die but if shiek kill the regular pikmin u get a purple not too hard, you can farm for purples when u are thrown off by throwing off ur non purple pikmin, when u throw them off, it depends on how much dmg u are willing to take to trade off getting a purple (this is situational), if they dont want to approach then that gives u time to farm and they realize u are farming itll force them to approach. Purples are the best counter to grab approaches, discourage most if not all aerial approaches, and it forces them to approach from the ground where u could pivot grab where most of oli's dmg comes from and covers most approaches in addition to purples.

3. While on the ledge its important to have at least 1 purple to use as a mixup to get on stage from offstage in general, the most use uption is drop ledge or ledge jump to deal with sheiks ledge punish game, rememebr being on the ledge is all about timing , they can either cover jump or getup not all at the same time, being on the ledge its all a mixup and conditioning. Ima just go on and say conditioning is the best thing olimar has to his full potential.

4. As far as the silly purple AI its wise to be watching ur line if theyre all over the place and use ur whistle. Even if they throw u off, u have to use ur jump to keep them with u, that great chance u said it can be significant;y mitigated, also upair while ur being thrown is one of the ways myran uses to try to keep the purple from falling off into the blast zone aside from whistle. Sometimes losing a purple is neccesary to get back to stage and farming another one isnt too hard.

5. White pivot grab is one of the longest grabs in the game as well as one of the least laggiest out there aside from Lucas's grab and its very useful in the Sheik MU

6. If a pikmin is latched in front of sheik it actually stops her from having the needles come out but id have to test this out more, prolly common knowledge but still useful.

7.Dont approach when you dont need to, you have time and being patient and mentally breaking down your opponwnt is crucial, as they say any weapon can be a useful weapon, as a swiss army knife to a ak47 machine gun, one may completely outclass the other in terms of getting the job done immediately but it all depends on person playing it, when playing olimar u fight the player then the character.

 

[Myran]

I say these things because I actively apply them when I play. Yeah it's hard and sometimes situational, but I've found it to work. Olimar as a character thrives off you playing amazing. His room for error is small in comparison to most high/top tiers.

When you're able to integrate all his situational tech and pikmin shenanigans into a fluent playstyle that's where he can beat any character. It's easy to call that optimism, but that's what my experience with the character have shown me.

More times than not bettering ourselves as players will increase our success than finding some new tech. He has ways to beat Sheik. I'm confident in that.

 

[Blue Banana]

Dropping in here to say that I'll probably start on the second set of discussions soon, now that I have lots of free time on my hands.

Priority will be given to characters that have tentative ratings (, , , etc.) or have significant patch changes since their discussion ( and who we're discussing right now).

 

[Rotten Seagull]

Hey guys!

I have been having some problems against Corrin, mainly due to most of her moves out prioritizing pikmin, side b and fsmash, bair baits, her disjoints making landing / getting back on stage hard, and her kill setups.

Any tips?

 

[Blue Banana]

Hey guys!

I have been having some problems against Corrin, mainly due to most of her moves out prioritizing pikmin, side b and fsmash, bair baits, her disjoints making landing / getting back on stage hard, and her kill setups.

Any tips?

Did you look here?

 

[Rotten Seagull]

Did you look here?

Yes, I have.

Basically, the game plan is to keep center stage and look for grabs. However, I would like to know if anybody else had any input as how to effectively keep center stage. I feel that every time i try and throw pikmin to stop corrin's advances, that I'm just asking to get pinned.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Yes, I have.

Basically, the game plan is to keep center stage and look for grabs. However, I would like to know if anybody else had any input as how to effectively keep center stage. I feel that every time i try and throw pikmin to stop corrin's advances, that I'm just asking to get pinned.

hmm look for grabs lol thats what corrin will be looking for when ur looking for it assuming they know they know the mu and they will do neutral b, get their silly dragon pin lunge pin spam or tipper fsmash, like literally this MU is so sheild heavy that u have to play it like cloud, literally

A. Camp in shield and try to bait him to grab you and punish him accordingly ,Also purples beat dragon lunge so, yeah.LOL also reading his shield drop habits,if they like to powershield that gives you the knowledge that you can literally shorthop and tomahawk with a fsmash in their face as far as mixing up, you just have to be creative as long as you keep your own shield in mind, ALSO if you are in a juggle/combo, opt to reset to the ledge but you have to be wary of what they like to do to cover your ledge option as this can be potentially dangerous (landing back with purples are always neccesary in any mu and having one at least is very important)

B. Punish his landings (powershield his dair to punish it if he likes that), rack up dmg with side b from afar (you do regular ones, jumping ones,pivoting ones mix this up and make sure u do like shield -jab jab-fsmash-pivot grab-sheild etc) im sure u can figure the situations in which is respectively applicable. and know what they are looking for at each percentage you are at, if high percent they go for grabs or they make u think they go for grabs and try to spam pin ,etc.

But yeah hope that helps buddy

fox is worse, so this MU is annoying af, but it could be worse.

 

[Rotten Seagull]

hmm look for grabs lol thats what corrin will be looking for when ur looking for it assuming they know they know the mu and they will do neutral b, get their silly dragon pin lunge pin spam or tipper fsmash, like literally this MU is so sheild heavy that u have to play it like cloud, literally

A. Camp in shield and try to bait him to grab you and punish him accordingly ,Also purples beat dragon lunge so, yeah.LOL also reading his shield drop habits,if they like to powershield that gives you the knowledge that you can literally shorthop and tomahawk with a fsmash in their face as far as mixing up, you just have to be creative as long as you keep your own shield in mind, ALSO if you are in a juggle/combo, opt to reset to the ledge but you have to be wary of what they like to do to cover your ledge option as this can be potentially dangerous (landing back with purples are always neccesary in any mu and having one at least is very important)

B. Punish his landings (powershield his dair to punish it if he likes that), rack up dmg with side b from afar (you do regular ones, jumping ones,pivoting ones mix this up and make sure u do like shield -jab jab-fsmash-pivot grab-sheild etc) im sure u can figure the situations in which is respectively applicable. and know what they are looking for at each percentage you are at, if high percent they go for grabs or they make u think they go for grabs and try to spam pin ,etc.

But yeah hope that helps buddy

fox is worse, so this MU is annoying af, but it could be worse.

Yes, this will help a lot.

Thanks!