Pikachu's ridiculous thunder.

[Gindler]

So has anyone else noticed how ridiculously buffed pikachu's thunder is? It's faster, less punishable after the hit, and the ground blast radius is larger. So whenever I play my move spamming friend (pikachu thunder half the time, down stab with link half the time, worst out of the group) but I was wondering, what is the best way to punish this ridiculous move? I use yoshi and his shield(egg) does nothing to protect me when I'm standing near pikachu, and good advice would be appreciated.

ps: I know pits good against him with his two reflectors, but anyone know a way for yoshi?

 

[PipePlaza]

Did it get buffed that hard? Might consider using him

 

[Wyvern]

Don't forget how the vertical range of Thunder is practically infinite now, such that if you're hanging out near the top of the screen for some completely unrelated reason, Pikachu can stand under you and Thunder to push you above the kill line and kill you from 0% (though I can't help but wonder what someone would be doing up there at zero...).

 

[TeenLink2D]

Yes! It's soo annoying, especially in FD.

Lol

 

[Doctor T]

Yeah, Pikachu's thunder is much more amazing than ever before. It is actually almost on a spammable level, even among accomplished players. The delay time is reduced so much that it is very difficult to punish.

I love it.

Unfortunately, since I'm playing as Pikachu, not fighting him, I can't really give you any advice on how to punish it, other than "stay the hell away". Try to do what you can from a distance.

 

[dude225]

lol, i love that people actually say im going to consider playing him because he got buffed.

he was amazing in melee. in brawl he seems just as good. just say he traded his up smash for his down b. (tho the combo is the same because thunder is RIDICULOUS lol)

also... has anyone noticed his tail-spike? i swear i did it once, but only once.

 

[festizzio]

His tail doesn't spike, although it does knock them to the left and right same as it did in Melee, it's been weakened as well as the hitstun's been reduced on all attacks enough to where it will never spike anyone.

 

[ALFET]

Airdodge and DI out of it.

 

[Kai_]

Yes I have, and it's one of many reasons this character just came out of the blue and became my main.

Even if the move is avoided, the Pika user still won't get punished in any way afterwards. Airdodge doesn't work; the thunder lingers around longer.

 

[Doctor T]

Seems like all of Pika's attacks are less damaging and less powerful now. But his speed has been increased, and his downtime is almost nonexistent now.

I just miss my dashing jump. The new floaty physics are so annoying.

 

[exo5]

The thunder gets abused easily.
My KOs keep getting stolen by pika-players when a foe is launched pika can thunder strike and launch them higher off the board even if they were about to get KOed.
Example. Smash attack player goes high above the board on his way out. Pika comes from under and gets the last hit since its a full vertical strike and the KO.

Again due to the full vertical strike they can get the smash ball easiest. Just walk under it (or close to it) use the thunder, more often than not the orb will float into the thunder which the other chars and scrableing for the sucker.

 

[Doctor T]

The thunder gets abused easily.
My KOs keep getting stolen by pika-players when a foe is launched pika can thunder strike and launch them higher off the board even if they were about to get KOed.
Example. Smash attack player goes high above the board on his way out. Pika comes from under and gets the last hit since its a full vertical strike and the KO.

Again due to the full vertical strike they can get the smash ball easiest. Just walk under it (or close to it) use the thunder, more often than not the orb will float into the thunder which the other chars and scrableing for the sucker.

You can't expect the game to be balanced with a 4-player free-for-all with Final Smashes on. Some characters just dominate at that.

The idea is that characters should be balanced in a 1v1 match with no items on. Which they seemed to do a pretty good job of, at least so far. Much better than my first impressions of Melee anyway.

 

[Gindler]

Well i found a way to punish it, if i feel like using a non main I'll use Dedede or ike. Their forward smashes are powerful have long reach but are slow as crap, but thanks to pikachu just standing there during thunder use the long reach and power of the F smash to destructively punish him. with my main (yoshi) i just turn him into an egg when he starts the attack then it interupts it so that no thunder goes down. a thunder spamming deserves to get egg spammed, try to out annoying the person (ps, this is for stock matches not stupid timed matches)

 

[D20]

Pikachu's thunder should never ever be punished. Here's why... you should only use it if your opponent is high above you or attempting to recover. Since the top part of the thunder comes out extremely fast, you should be looking to thunder after a usmash or dsmash. Usmash --> thunder can kill at ridiculously low percentages if the usmash was DI'd poorly. Also, when using the thunder to edgegaurd, you want to jump off the stage then use it as you are jumping back on. This creates a wall between you and your opponent that reaches from the ceiling to the floor. Basically, never use his thunder when your opponent is on the ground... unless you just broke his sheild or a Jigglypuff missed a rest.

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

Pikachu's thunder should never ever be punished. Here's why... you should only use it if your opponent is high above you or attempting to recover. Since the top part of the thunder comes out extremely fast, you should be looking to thunder after a usmash or dsmash. Usmash --> thunder can kill at ridiculously low percentages if the usmash was DI'd poorly. Also, when using the thunder to edgegaurd, you want to jump off the stage then use it as you are jumping back on. This creates a wall between you and your opponent that reaches from the ceiling to the floor. Basically, never use his thunder when your opponent is on the ground... unless you just broke his sheild or a Jigglypuff missed a rest.

...with the notable exceptions of:
-4 player match surprise attacks.
-When fighting n00bs.

I've also had some success with using it as my opponent gets up off of the ledge. If you space it right, it'll intercept their "get up" attack, hit on either side of you so their "get up" roll is useless, and hit above you, so jumpers will end up caught in the beam unless they go straight up. It's relatively reliable; certainly better than in melee.

 

[IceEmblem]

Just tell your friend you refuse to play if he keeps doing it, and atleast you have tht thing that makes his moves weaker every time if he spams.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Just tell your friend you refuse to play if he keeps doing it, and atleast you have tht thing that makes his moves weaker every time if he spams.

Lol. I'm more of the opinion that doing something about a problem is much better than whining about it.

No one mentioned the fact that Pika can edge stall with Thunder, and use it as a cruel edgeguard too.

It's about time that Thunder owns, lol. It's pretty much the most amazing attack in the animated universe.

 

[Gindler]

Lol. I'm more of the opinion that doing something about a problem is much better than whining about it.

No one mentioned the fact that Pika can edge stall with Thunder, and use it as a cruel edgeguard too.

It's about time that Thunder owns, lol. It's pretty much the most amazing attack in the animated universe.

Ha, it truly is the cruelest edgegaurd in the game. Air dodging through it seems to be the only option but that requires good timing, I'm just glad that it doesn't do too much damage. Yeah, it did need a buffing due to how open pikachu was after using it, but now he's not open at all after the attack, you have to hit him on the ground before the thunder hits him, I guess after a few hours of practice it will be another "useless" move for pikachu.

 

[Starry Might]

Yeah, Thunder struck (no pun intended) me as being REALLY strong now!

When I took Pikachu through Classic Mode, during the first fight I got Link up near the top of the screen (I think), and I used Thunder...I KO'd him at 25%!

You could KO people near the top of the screen with Thunder in "Melee", too, but still...hot dang.

 

[MuMastr]

try dodges. is there still the down dodge (on the ground) if so try it

 

[b13lion]

It's really liked they gave his thunder back too him after taking it away in melee...a friend of mine use to be really good with pika in 64 (where the thunder went from top to bottom unlike melee where you could see the cloud) but in melee he sucked as pika and my melee Link owned him forcing him to play with Marth and then he started kicking my *** again...but anyways I guess what I'm saying I feel like the real pika from 64 is back and better than before...he just has more competition this time around because in 64 he was arguably the most agile character in the game

 

[Luigi Smash Master]

his thunder is godlike. its FASTER, has a BIGGER HITBOX, has LESS LAG and stays around for freaking 5 secs it seems. (last one a bit exxagerated but you get my point) pikachu's thunder is broken lol

 

[Luigi Smash Master]

try dodges. is there still the down dodge (on the ground) if so try it

no chance, it lasts longer than a spot dodge or an air dodge

 

[UnSaxon51]

The most annoying part is that ALL of Pika's smashes send you up and prime you for a Thunder. You can DI out of all three, but it's fairly difficult on Usmash.
And, of course, let's not overlook the equally spammable SPIN-OF-DEATH (aka Dsmash)

Depending on the character, airdodge can work really well or not at all.

 

[b13lion]

I know this is gonna sound pretty noobish and I probably already know what it is in-game, but I just don't know what it stands for in the forums...What the hell is DI?...does that mean evade, dode, roll, or something to that effect?

 

[Bane84]

Directional influence.

 

[b13lion]

thank you...I was kinda embarrassed to ask that

 

[Digital Limit]

Heh, I just asked the same thing today. DI is a tricky one.

 

[b13lion]

Heh, I just asked the same thing today. DI is a tricky one.

yea it's hard to keep up with all the acronyms these days with all the forums and text messaging...lol, rofl, myob, byol, etc...

for example, my Mom sent me an e-mail the other day and at the end she put "lol" and I trying to figure out what the hell she laughing at...so I called her and asked her what was so funny about her message and she didn't know what I was talking about, so I asked then why did you put "lol" at the end and she said... to her "lol" means "lots of love"...not "laugh out loud"...so there's my point in case.

 

[Doctor T]

wtf old people.

But anyways... Directional Influence (or DI) is when you press the Control Stick in a direction to "influence" your movement. It is most often used to describe your reaction when hit by a powerful attack, since you can still slightly influence your movement and direction with the Control Stick even when you can't do anything else. If you press hard in the opposite direction you were hit in, it can help you stay alive a lot longer than normal.

 

[b13lion]

wtf old people.

But anyways... Directional Influence (or DI) is when you press the Control Stick in a direction to "influence" your movement. It is most often used to describe your reaction when hit by a powerful attack, since you can still slightly influence your movement and direction with the Control Stick even when you can't do anything else. If you press hard in the opposite direction you were hit in, it can help you stay alive a lot longer than normal.

lol(laugh out loud) I know right

thanks and yea I knew about Directional Influence (DI) just never knew what it was called

 

[b13lion]

The most annoying part is that ALL of Pika's smashes send you up and prime you for a Thunder. You can DI out of all three, but it's fairly difficult on Usmash.

Depending on the character, airdodge can work really well or not at all.

Ok so now that we are all on the same page about DI we can get back to the subject matter. I have a question for you UnSaxon. By this post did you mean that you can just move out of the way of the actual Thunder after Pika performs a smash on you?

 

[leafgreen386]

wtf old people.

But anyways... Directional Influence (or DI) is when you press the Control Stick in a direction to "influence" your movement. It is most often used to describe your reaction when hit by a powerful attack, since you can still slightly influence your movement and direction with the Control Stick even when you can't do anything else. If you press hard in the opposite direction you were hit in, it can help you stay alive a lot longer than normal.

Uh... no? That's not how DI works. If you press in the opposite direction to that which you are sent, there will be absolutely no effect on where you are sent, or the speed you are sent there. You always want to DI perpendicular to the direction in which you are sent, which will have the most severe effect on your trajectory. So an attack that sends you horizontally, you'd want to DI straight up. For an attack that sends you straight up you'd want to DI straight to the side. The goal is to direct yourself to the very top right or top left corner, which are the farthest points you can travel to on the screen.

@b13lion: I think he's just talking about DIing as far away from pikachu as possible to make it harder for pika to land the thunder. The fsmash and dsmash can easily be DIed off the stage, where pika would have much more difficulty in hitting you with thunder.

 

[Doctor T]

So you're telling me that if I'm hit straight up, holding Down on the control stick does nothing. Riiiight.

 

[festizzio]

So you're telling me that if I'm hit straight up, holding Down on the control stick does nothing. Riiiight.

He's just telling you that it's far more useful to DI to the left or right if you get hit straight up.

 

[leafgreen386]

So you're telling me that if I'm hit straight up, holding Down on the control stick does nothing. Riiiight.

Pretty much. If you were holding down before you were hit, the knockback will be reduced due to crouch canceling, however if you're in the air, it won't do a thing.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

Everything in that thread still applies in brawl, with the notable exceptions of ASDI (unconfirmed) and crouch canceling, which seems to only reduce knockback this time, as opposed to both kb and stun.

Regular DI :

After the hitlag, your character starts flying from the hit.

Regular DI will influence your trajectory, it has been known for more than a year now.
DIing along the same line of the default trajectory doesn't affect it at all. What does work and what saves your life at high % is having a DI perpendicular to the default trajectory.

Lrn2DI

 

[Tagxy]

I don't know that I'd recommend DIing off stage against a pikachu if you can avoid it unless you can hit the edge right away.

 

[Wingless Abaddon]

There's a reason why Televisions and Monitors are measured diagonally. Because the distance, naturally, will be longer diagonally. Meaning that if you're hit straight up and DI to the left or right, you have a better chance of living. You have to fly the furthest at those points to die there.

To put it simply, what Mr. LeafGreen was saying. =D Obviously the smart idea.

 

[b13lion]

Uh... no? That's not how DI works. If you press in the opposite direction to that which you are sent, there will be absolutely no effect on where you are sent, or the speed you are sent there. You always want to DI perpendicular to the direction in which you are sent, which will have the most severe effect on your trajectory. So an attack that sends you horizontally, you'd want to DI straight up. For an attack that sends you straight up you'd want to DI straight to the side. The goal is to direct yourself to the very top right or top left corner, which are the farthest points you can travel to on the screen.

@b13lion: I think he's just talking about DIing as far away from pikachu as possible to make it harder for pika to land the thunder. The fsmash and dsmash can easily be DIed off the stage, where pika would have much more difficulty in hitting you with thunder.

Ok that makes alot more sense... so basically for the thunder, it's just harder for Pika to hit you if you are moving horizontally...ok cool because I knew that all along so I don't feel as stupid anymore. But I never thought about the DIing to the corners, that makes sense...thanks for filling me in

 

[Metzger]

So you're telling me that if I'm hit straight up, holding Down on the control stick does nothing. Riiiight.

Actually, yeah - and he's right. But thanks for trying to be a smart ***.

You cannot directly influence knockback momentum in the opposite direction until the physics engine expends all energy in that direction after it is awarded by the attack. Thus, if you were hit straight up, and you hold straight down, absolutely no momentum change occurs until all momentum awarded by the smash attack expires; if it's enough to KO you, you wasted a stock being stupid. By holding perpendicularly, you influence momentum in a new direction which the game then adds to the weight properties, moving you in a new, diagonal direction. This allows you to live from smash attacks that might have otherwise killed you by forcing the momentum along a longer path so that, when it expires, it failed to move you into the KO boundaries.