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Welcome to the Lucas Matchup Thread! This thread will be used to discuss Lucas's matchups in Super Smash Bros Wii U and 3DS.
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I too have always played fox. I have used that strategy with fox but since Lucas cant absorb the arrows, I just cant beat link.The most success I have had with Link is by Fsmashing back his tornado for surprise approaches, and punishing the end lag on his smash attacks and dash attack. Otherwise, they can keep me at a distance with multiple solid projectiles and my floaty approaches get stuffed by his superior reach and priority. I am certain I am playing him wrong, and just missing something obvious - but I can't seem to find anything that consistently works in the MU.I have classically played Fox, so this MU has never given me much trouble. But I would like to learn to play this MU better with Lucas.
in this MU, link's bomb use is limited - he can't haphazardly throw them out at Lucas.how do you combat link?
It's probably a good idea to learn how to power shield all of Link's projectiles. That's a staple procedure against Link no matter what character you're playing. Once you've mastered that, it'll be really easy to approach. When you're finally able to get in close, watch out for Link's jab as many players like to use it to get you off their back.how do you combat link?
I've heard everyone say that, but link can hold his arrows so i dont know when they will be released and when they do they come out too fast for me to shieldIt's probably a good idea to learn how to power shield all of Link's projectiles. That's a staple procedure against Link no matter what character you're playing. Once you've mastered that, it'll be really easy to approach. When you're finally able to get in close, watch out for Link's jab as many players like to use it to get you off their back.
him holding an arrow out is basically giving you a free approach. jump in the air and float towards him. if he still doesnt shoot, hit him with a nair. if you're too far away to reach him, PKT1.I've heard everyone say that, but link can hold his arrows so i dont know when they will be released and when they do they come out too fast for me to shield
If only we had PSI Shield to properly reflect stuff :vI feel like Lucas struggles with Sheik, Sonic, and Fox the most.
Sheik because, well its Sheik and she is super fast not to mention Needles are a pain to deal with
Sonic because Lucas really doesn't have a reliable way to stop Spin Dash aside from the Frame 22 PK Fire and a hard read aerial. Not to mention Sonic is super fast and hard to catch.
Fox really abuses our end lag and really hard to punish.
uhh dude if you try holding out PSI magnet after getting thrown, you are going to have a bad time.If only we had PSI Shield to properly reflect stuff :v
We can heal 30% of Sheik's Up B so Sheik's F Throw to Up B is a nono
And since Sheik's Up B is a teleport we can easily Down Smash or Bair to cover the ledge
But The matchup is still hard :o
Dont think souhh dude if you try holding out PSI magnet after getting thrown, you are going to have a bad time.
I have not found it particularly difficult, you just have to play patiently. A lot of his attacks out range you when you are close up, but he is garbage off stage where you are strong and you certainly have the advantage when he isn't in your face. I have a tendency to spam a lot more PK Fires than I ever would in any other MU, to keep him approaching you -where you can maybe deal with him a lot better. I am fairly positive you can absorb his upsmash fire as an added bonus, but obviously be careful trying this. If you are coming back onto the stage, some Roy's try to charge their neutral special - if they do this and you aren't coming from below the stage you can get behind them and go for a Bair which is lethal at high percentages and gets him off stage either way where you have an extreme advantage. Once he is off stage, if you can get a fair, bair or pk fire off - it will be very difficult for him to recover - so treating him like little mac is a good method, except he isn't nearly as fast as little mac and doesn't have his super armor!Anyone else find the matchup against roy to be hard?
I can see this, although it's fair to mention, whilst nowhere near as threatening, Lucas does have Zair to help stuff Greninja's SH approaches, and if Lucas brings it back around to hit himself and not incur 1000 years of endlag, PKT1 as an edge-guarding tool is reasonable. Fair is probably more disjointed than Ness' Fair too, but I'm not sure if Lucas is going to go head to head with froggy on that and get the sweetspot most of the time. Froggy probably wins this one.My experience with both of my mains make me feel that Lucas is going to struggle with Greninja in spite of his recovery better recovery.
Greninja has lots of disjoint and mobility so he easily outranges Lucas, who doesn't have anything like Ness's F-Air to keep him away. Not only that, but in spite of Lucas's grab reward, getting a grab on Greninja is going to be pretty tough with this mobility and range, thanks to it being a tether, Greninja can SHFF N-Air Lucas safely because any attempt at grabbing will be met with a jab.
PK Fire helps keep Greninja away, but the frog is fast enough to close-in on Lucas. Greninja's fall speed might help Lucas combo him for some time with things like Up-Tilt or N-Air.
Lucas has nothing on Greninja when it comes to edgeguarding other than the possibility of a B-Air spike (he might be able to get one if Greninja Shadow Sneaks at the ledge and he isn't hit/shields it but that's one of those things that only works on a unwitting opponent) while Greninja can't gimp Lucas very easily thanks to the tether (he can attempt to stage spike him while he's trying to climb though), but if Lucas is ever forced to use PK Thunder, gg.
My first impression of the Greninja MU for our sunflower boy is 60:40 in frog's favor. Lucas just lacks a lot of what makes Ness difficult for Greninja, namely a long lasting disjointed hitbox, a bad grab and overall not being as strong as Ness (PK Thunder II doesn't kill nearly as well as Ness's, Ness's B-Throw kills earlier than any of his throws, etc).
Oh yeah I forgot Lucas's Z-Air, it's the one move he has that really outranges Greninja, but just it isn't going to change much in the MU, the fact that only the snake's head has a hitbox can make hitting with it awkward too, especially when Greninja is short and he even runs while keeping himself at a low pose.I can see this, although it's fair to mention, whilst nowhere near as threatening, Lucas does have Zair to help stuff Greninja's SH approaches, and if Lucas brings it back around to hit himself and not incur 1000 years of endlag, PKT1 as an edge-guarding tool is reasonable. Fair is probably more disjointed than Ness' Fair too, but I'm not sure if Lucas is going to go head to head with froggy on that and get the sweetspot most of the time. Froggy probably wins this one.
Table's fixed.Tewnleenk, could you please edit roster table so it includes Lucas, Roy and Ryu? (even though we know Lucas v lucas is 50:50, it bothers me that Lucas is not there)
I feel as though Lucas struggles against most of the cast, especially because when people get in it's pretty bad since imo he doesnt have much to protect himself, and anybody with range can just destroy him since he cant safely harass a shield with up b and cancel it.Oh yeah I forgot Lucas's Z-Air, it's the one move he has that really outranges Greninja, but just it isn't going to change much in the MU, the fact that only the snake's head has a hitbox can make hitting with it awkward too, especially when Greninja is short and he even runs while keeping himself at a low pose.
The thing that makes Lucas's F-Air inferior to Ness's in this MU is simply how long it lasts. Ness's lasts forever and walls Greninja out well unless he manages to space a F-Air. Lucas's ends very fast and so there's a lot less maneuvering to do around it. I'm pretty sure Greninja's F-Air has more range than Lucas's as well or at the very least they trade.
PK Thunder for edgeguarding is risky because of Shadow Sneak. Greninja can get to Lucas really fast thanks to it and the long lag on PK Thunder just makes Lucas a sitting duck waiting for a water sword to the face. If Lucas is close to the ledge then Greninja can even just kick him in the back for the kill too, Shadow Sneak has surprising kill potential especially when the back kick connects.
If you're going to pelt Greninja with something while he's offstage, PK Freeze is probably your best bet, but even then it's really easy to see coming so unless you do some sick mindgames you're probably not going to hit with it very often.
The real dealbreaker in this MU is really Lucas's grab. It just gives Greninja too much freedom to pressure him and Lucas really can't afford to miss a grab either because Greninja can be just devastating once he gets in. And when Lucas's throws are such an important part of his game... Yeah.
I don't quite agree, Lucas struggles with range, yeah, I can't see the sword characters being too fun for him to deal with (and Greninja is sorta a pseudo-sword character), but I don't think he's going to struggle against most.I feel as though Lucas struggles against most of the cast, especially because when people get in it's pretty bad since imo he doesnt have much to protect himself, and anybody with range can just destroy him since he cant safely harass a shield with up b and cancel it.
Thing is, I feel like it's decently easy to shield grab Lucas with Luigi, I can see the Falcon matchup being okay though.I don't quite agree, Lucas struggles with range, yeah, I can't see the sword characters being too fun for him to deal with (and Greninja is sorta a pseudo-sword character), but I don't think he's going to struggle against most.
Characters I see giving Lucas trouble:/
That's admittedly a lot of bad MUs at the upper half of the tier list, but this is just a first impressions thing.
If nothing else I think Lucas will have a good MU againstand I think he deals with
pretty well too.
There is no light/heavy variation of focus attack, just how long he charges it. And you should careful baiting it against good Ryus because he can dash cancel it (FADC) to evade your hard punish.I've been having success fighting. We can grab them while they are using light Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. (never faced a
using that heavy input, so this might not work against that input) In a few cases I've been able to bait a focus attack (not sure what weight input, I think it's light) and then grab them before they hit me. We also have the choice to absorb or reflect Hadoken and we can stop their approach with PK Fire. We can also get them offstage so it's difficult for them to recover.
Lucas' tether helps here a lot for poking if Ryu gets in but relying on such a bad poking tool against Ryu isnt very funThere is no light/heavy variation of focus attack, just how long he charges it. And you should careful baiting it against good Ryus because he can dash cancel it (FADC) to evade your hard punish.
Zoning and edgeguarding Ryu is all well and good, but once he's in footsie range things get dicey since even with PK
disjoints Ryu outranges and outdamages Lucas on a lot of his normals. Dsmash and fair especially are nasty safe pokes.
It should also be mentioned that Shakunetsu Hadoken (red multi-hit) heals very little compared to the normal blue, and the light,
slow-moving variations give Ryu enough time to make a move on your countermeasure.
It's close to even if you ask me. Lucas has more effective long-range zoning but Ryu stomps him in footsies.
Both can have trouble confirming a kill if they both play safe.
Have no fear! That'll come pretty soon. We're just getting organized and stuff.Um... arent we suppose to discuss each match up one by one?
Like first start discussing the Lucas VS Mario match up to follow the order of the roster
Sorry for being strict but i just want the thread to be more organized :3
Ooh i see! Thats good ;D!Have no fear! That'll come pretty soon. We're just getting organized and stuff.