Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus

[gmBottles]

How many of those people played ZSS before 3.5? The thing is, 3.0 zss was a character that you had to LEARN. You didn't just apply your fundamentals and play her like any other speedster. In 3.5, she doesn't take much figuring out, she's pretty straightfoward. Naturally, this is going to those new to ZSS like her more.

Well, the point I'm more so trying to make is that she's still very good. I'm not saying she wasn't good before, and I understand why people are upset with the changes, but I don't think changing her back to how she was in 3.02 is the best option. With what you say about her not being someone you have to learn, is that necessarily a bad thing? Easy characters can still be really good, look at Shiek in Melee.

 

[Foo]

Well, the point I'm more so trying to make is that she's still very good. I'm not saying she wasn't good before, and I understand why people are upset with the changes, but I don't think changing her back to how she was in 3.02 is the best option. With what you say about her not being someone you have to learn, is that necessarily a bad thing? Easy characters can still be really good, look at Shiek in Melee.

If ZSS was a brand new character, it's not a good or a bad thing. What's good is having both, so people have a lot to choose from. Fox and Falco were very hard to figure out until all their extremely jank and gimmicky moves BECAME fundamentals because of how good they were.

I am perfectly fine with having simple, fundamentals based characters like sheik. I just don't want the PMDT to remove characters that AREN'T like that. I think it's really sad that they took one of the most unique characters in the game and homogenized her. Again, you may be right that's she's super good, but I have no idea. She still has almost all the same weaknesses from last patch, but lost many strengths. It all depends on how much other characters really got nerfed, and I'm not fully familiar with all the changes to know one way or the other.

 

[gmBottles]

If ZSS was a brand new character, it's not a good or a bad thing. What's good is having both, so people have a lot to choose from. Fox and Falco were very hard to figure out until all their extremely jank and gimmicky moves BECAME fundamentals because of how good they were.

I am perfectly fine with having simple, fundamentals based characters like sheik. I just don't want the PMDT to remove characters that AREN'T like that. I think it's really sad that they took one of the most unique characters in the game and homogenized her. Again, you may be right that's she's super good, but I have no idea. She still has almost all the same weaknesses from last patch, but lost many strengths. It all depends on how much other characters really got nerfed, and I'm not fully familiar with all the changes to know one way or the other.

I get what you mean better now I think. Tbh I never really played her before 3.5 so I guess I'm not gonna have the same reaction as others.

 

[Esper]

I'm signing the petition to restore 3.02 ZSS.

Objectively she is better now, mostly because of her new grab and fair, but the cost was everything that made her fun for me.

Personally I'd revert everything back to 3.02 and only keep the nerfs to her recovery, to dair and the fix to up-smash. If the nair has to be nerfed, then change the values but not the size.

Also, 3.02 fair was fine.

Side note:
I was watching a set of Numerics of 3.02 and when I realized that almost everything cool he did was impossible in 3.5, I got incredibly sad.
ZSS was my main since I've started playing PM (first public release), but at this rate, I'll drop her for CF or Ganon, as she isn't fun anymore.

 

[Stryker]

Signed. I'll quote my post in the 3.5 discussion thread. For anyone interested, it goes into more detail, but here is the TL:DR version

You have infinite balancing options. I cannot stress this enough. You were not forced to change her playstyle. If you couldn't come up with anything that worked, perhaps you need to go back to the drawing board instead of killing her character identity...

 

[kaizo13]

soo after actually dedicating time into 3.5 ZSS, all i gotta say is she is freaken amazing. i can 100% guarantee that anyone complaining about her changes hasn't really put any time or effort into her new moveset, because if you did, you would realize that she is much improved and deadlier than she ever was before.

 

[Phaiyte]

Every single person in this thread doing all this whining is literally ****ing stupid.

"OMG MY CHARACTER'S NOT THE MOST BRAINDEAD PICK IN THE GAME ANYMORE OHHH NOOOOO"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO TECH CHASE NOW WHHAAAAAAA"
- paraphrased, but actual quote in this thread lmao

"OMG I CAN'T JUST HOLD SOMEONE IN PLACE FOR 10 HITS TO LEAD INTO A FREE KO SHIIIIIIIIIIIT"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY NEUTRAL LIKE EVERYONE ELSE NOW"

You are all garbage and making everyone else look bad with your incompetence.

 

[BILL?]

Go ahead and take me off the list, I'm gonna focus on Melee anyways so my opinion on her really doesn't have any relevance.

^Also way to add rational and constructive content to the discussion. Thanks for taking the thread to newly productive heights...

 

[Phaiyte]

You're asking for rationality in a kid's petition post? Are you actually serious right now lmao

 

[Mean Green]

Every single person in this thread doing all this whining is literally ****ing stupid.

"OMG MY CHARACTER'S NOT THE MOST BRAINDEAD PICK IN THE GAME ANYMORE OHHH NOOOOO"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO TECH CHASE NOW WHHAAAAAAA"
- paraphrased, but actual quote in this thread lmao

"OMG I CAN'T JUST HOLD SOMEONE IN PLACE FOR 10 HITS TO LEAD INTO A FREE KO SHIIIIIIIIIIIT"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY NEUTRAL LIKE EVERYONE ELSE NOW"

You are all garbage and making everyone else look bad with your incompetence.

Worth

 

[Legit]

Do people really think that 3.02 ZSS mains haven't played the **** out of 3.5 ZSS and made every effort to learn her? We didn't just install 3.5, go into training with ZSS, play her for 5 mins then "WHAAA" on these boards like a lot of people think.

I still main ZSS and play her on netplay quite often. I'll approximate that I've put 8-10 hours into 3.5 ZSS. Those of you claiming that we haven't put enough time into her probably haven't played the new character at all, or played her for only a couple matches. I'd put $$ that nobody making these accusations has played enough of 3.02 ZSS AND 3.5 ZSS to really see how radical the changes are.

@ P Phaiyte , ZSS wasn't even close to being an easy character to play like your ignorant post states. You also don't seem to understand the real reason we want ZSS changed, and judging by your attitude in your post, you don't care anyway, so kindly **** off.

 

[ph00tbag]

You're asking for rationality in a kid's petition post? Are you actually serious right now lmao

Actually, most of the people upset about the changes have been pretty polite and reasonable about it, all things considered. You could try to respond in kind.

I mean, I get that your main will be completely terrible even now that he can fly, but that's no reason to go and be a fucking baby on everyone else's forums.

 

[InfinityCollision]

soo after actually dedicating time into 3.5 ZSS, all i gotta say is she is freaken amazing. i can 100% guarantee that anyone complaining about her changes hasn't really put any time or effort into her new moveset, because if you did, you would realize that she is much improved and deadlier than she ever was before.

Allow me to quote myself from the previous page:

Whether it was broken, polarizing, too good in a vacuum, whatever, isn't really the question that needs to be answered. Whether ZSS is good or bad now or then isn't even really part of the discussion.

The real question that everyone should be asking is: were the drastic changes to her playstyle really the best option for her, and for the game as a whole? Was homogenization genuinely necessary, and do the merits of that decision outweigh the drawbacks of a reduction in net variety/breadth for the cast?

Was such a significant design shift the right choice, or was there a better option that would have retained her playstyle with more subtle changes to her kit?

I'll also state that I've put more time and effort into ZSS post update than any other character. You're both off the mark and off base.

 

[Rᴏb]

You're asking questions that don't have answers.
This thread is ridiculous.

 

[NhgrtPlayer]

She got nerfed. Deal with it.

 

[ph00tbag]

Again, if true, it's not the nerf people here have a problem with. It's the fact that ZSS now feels tremendously generic and most of the characteristics that made her feel really unique are completely gone.

 

[Kally Wally]

You all keep saying that but I honestly have no idea what it's supposed to mean. She's basically the same as I remember her being, except I can actually grab competent opponents, and I can't spam my low-commitment projectile during every single approach.

 

[Foo]

You all keep saying that but I honestly have no idea what it's supposed to mean. She's basically the same as I remember her being, except I can actually grab competent opponents, and I can't spam my low-commitment projectile during every single approach.

Throwing out neutral b, rushing at your opponent and either fainting or going for one a few approach options is now replaced by standard dash dancing in neutral.

Her really high risk, really high reward grab that could only be landed on a read or a tech chase is now a standard grab.

Her nair chaining into itself, leading to putting them offstage but NOT into kill moves is now replaced by standard tech chase set up that can lead to down smash for kills.

Her dive kick leading into up air if jump canceled frame perfectly is now replaced by a normal dive kick. (don't really disagree with this change, just saying).

Her down-b that could radically alter moment, be used to plat cancel really quickly and many other jank options now is just like another jump.

Her throws that lead into combos are now replaced by the standard "you either get one hit, or a tech chase."

Across the board, all her changes normalized her, and forced ZSS players into a "standard" playstyle. While there is nothing wrong with the standard playstyle, it's good to have characters outside that playstyle. ZSS wasn't nerfed into the ground or anything, she's just lost her uniqueness. She still has slow but long ranged tools like fsmash and side-b too separate her, but that's just not enough imo. While her combo potential looked OP on paper, it wasn't that great because she didn't kill out of it, like most characters could. They gave her a combo game similar to sheik or falcon. Sheik and Falcon's combo games are good, but they can kill out of it easily and quickly, so it can't be too good. ZSS combo game was SICK, but it basically only lead to damage, and you had to land a raw kill move for most stocks. Back air, while very quick is relatively easy to avoid because if she's facing away, she's probably fishing for it, and down and f-smash are both frame 20.

I think her 3.02 playstyle would work fine in 3.5 if she had just gotten some nerf/tweaks. Instead, they chose to flat out remove functions of her signature tools.

She got nerfed. Deal with it.

pls read thread. We don't mind nerfs, we just didn't want our character to be so drastically different on a fundamental level .

 

[Yeroc]

I've been trying to follow this thread pretty dispassionately and accept feedback constructively, but I need to lay something down:

Nair KB change was a normalization tweak. Lots of moves in 3.02 had flat KB curves that they inherited from Brawl. Those have been remedied to better fit with the typical design of Melee moves. It's not going back.

The move tumbled every character at 0% (unless they were true CC'ing) and had relatively static KB at every percent (it didn't break CC until 60% at the earliest). This made it a go-to option in neutral because it had guaranteed results at every percent. Now it has more normative KB. It still breaks CC at the same percent as old nair, but it works more like a proper normal move, can be ASDI'd down like a normal move, requires commitment like a normal move. Learn to use it in new ways.

The size adjustment was also a normalization tweak too but the possibility exists that it was overdone. We're looking into it.

 

[Phaiyte]

@ P Phaiyte , ZSS wasn't even close to being an easy character to play like your ignorant post states. You also don't seem to understand the real reason we want ZSS changed, and judging by your attitude in your post, you don't care anyway, so kindly **** off.

3.0 ZSS was literally the most braindead character in the game, and nothing you say can refute that. Every single supporter in this thread are literally all saying "I don't want to learn how to play the game to actually be good at my character" lmao.

 

[Foo]

Oh no! He declared himself correct with any evidence! No one has ever tried such a bold move before! WHAT DO WE DO NOW?!?!

WHAT DO WE DO NOW?!

Seriously, this debate technique is SO advanced and incredible, that you should go take it the top schools in the world. Don't waste your incredible genius and superiority on this thread when it would be so much more valuable elsewhere. So, go! Go, literally anywhere else and enlighten the world!

 

[Phaiyte]

How the **** are you gonna claim to main this character and not realize why she was so stupidly designed? Using neutral B to force your opponents to make commitment actions? They shield, you get a free grab. They jump, you can fire another laser, force them to double jump to dodge it, and kill them for free because they don't have a double jump.

If they don't do those things, they get hit. They get paralyzed for 10 years, and if you can't get a kill off of that then you deserve to lose.

Do you really believe I just grabbed those quotes in my first post out of thin air? I literally quoted people in just this thread, while adding a hint of emotion that fits what they were feeling at the time they posted it. You're clearly keeping up with this thread more than everyone else. You should already see the evidence of that without me having to waste time and effort on a child on the internet using pseudo intellectual comebacks to make himself look smart so that he doesn't have to realize how actually ****ing stupid his thread is.

 

[Foo]

How the **** are you gonna claim to main this character and not realize why she was so stupidly designed? Using neutral B to force your opponents to make commitment actions? They shield, you get a free grab. They jump, you can fire another laser, force them to double jump to dodge it, and kill them for free because they don't have a double jump.

Shielding laser was nowhere near a free grab. Even if you dash cancelled perfectly, laser only shield stunned for one frame so you could easily roll to either side. If she grabbed, you'd get a free anything. Also, all it did was put you "airborne" for a couple frames if it hit, and did almost no damage. Basically, it's only purpose was to interrupt any ground setting up your opponent was doing. Her shield pressure was poor overall, but this compensated. If she predicted your option against blaster, she could punish you, but you predicted her, you could punish her. It was strong, maybe the dash cancel needed to be made later, but removing it was silly. With her new grab, it'd be really really really super dumb, but I don't want her new grab anyway.

Also, if they jump to avoid blaster, another blaster forces them to double jump? Have you only played on FD? Have you heard of not falling directly in front of the laser? It came out on frame 21, not exactly speedy. The best thing to do was to read their jump and nair/upair them.

Basically, blaster forced you to do something about blaster. Kind of like every projectile to ever be in a smash game. Ganon had a really bad matchup against ZSS because he DIDN'T have a way to deal with blaster very well, and he was also a perfect combo weight for her. I imagine that is what makes you feel this way. The only better matchup ZSS had was Bowser.

(Also, blaster was a slow projectile and she could only get one out at a time, so power shielding was both easy and super effective.)

 

[Phaiyte]

Shielding laser was nowhere near a free grab. Even if you dash cancelled perfectly, laser only shield stunned for one frame so you could easily roll to either side. If she grabbed, you'd get a free anything. Also, all it did was put you "airborne" for a couple frames if it hit, and did almost no damage. Basically, it's only purpose was to interrupt any ground setting up your opponent was doing. Her shield pressure was poor overall, but this compensated. If she predicted your option against blaster, she could punish you, but you predicted her, you could punish her. It was strong, maybe the dash cancel needed to be made later, but removing it was silly. With her new grab, it'd be really really really super dumb, but I don't want her new grab anyway.

Also, if they jump to avoid blaster, another blaster forces them to double jump? Have you only played on FD? Have you heard of not falling directly in front of the laser? It came out on frame 21, not exactly speedy. The best thing to do was to read their jump and nair/upair them.

Basically, blaster forced you to do something about blaster. Kind of like every projectile to ever be in a smash game. Ganon had a really bad matchup against ZSS because he DIDN'T have a way to deal with blaster very well, and he was also a perfect combo weight for her. I imagine that is what makes you feel this way. The only better matchup ZSS had was Bowser.

(Also, blaster was a slow projectile and she could only get one out at a time, so power shielding was both easy and super effective.)

I don't even understand why you're centralizing your thoughts on my Ganon when:
1. I didn't have any issues with ZSS with my Ganon because my Ganon is godlike as ****.
2. I have over 20+ other characters to choose from if I /really/ felt like it.

Get rid of your ******** assumptions before you make yourself look even more dumb.

Please, don't even bother responding if you can't even understand the idea of option selects and the actual concept of neutral.

 

[Foo]

I don't even understand why you're centralizing your thoughts on my Ganon when:
1. I didn't have any issues with ZSS with my Ganon because my Ganon is godlike as ****.
2. I have over 20+ other characters to choose from if I /really/ felt like it.

Get rid of your ******** assumptions before you make yourself look even more dumb.

Centralizing my thoughts on that? It was like 15% of one of many posts I've made on this thread.

 

[Stryker]

I've been trying to follow this thread pretty dispassionately and accept feedback constructively, but I need to lay something down:

Nair KB change was a normalization tweak. Lots of moves in 3.02 had flat KB curves that they inherited from Brawl. Those have been remedied to better fit with the typical design of Melee moves. It's not going back.

I will put this bluntly, because others have said it until they are blue in the face
ZSS players don't give a **** about the numbers nerfs that the character was given.

ZSS players are upset and leaving the character, because she no longer has the same playstyle as 3.02
That doesn't mean the number tweaks you made were wrong, it means the changes you made that weren't number based were wrong.
Nerf our character to the ground. People will still player her if she has a fun playstyle.
If she plays like this, even if she was better overall then before (Which, she is CLEARLY isn't) people would still drop her because she isn't delivering the play experience they enjoyed.
You didn't **** up her numbers, you ****ed up her concept.

 

[Phaiyte]

Centralizing my thoughts on that? It was like 15% of one of many posts I've made on this thread.

You have a post onthis page claiming that I only believed this thread was ******** (which it is) because I "mained Ganon", which is unbelievably ignorant and short sighted of you.

 

[Legit]

I don't even understand why you're centralizing your thoughts on my Ganon when:
1. I didn't have any issues with ZSS with my Ganon because my Ganon is godlike as ****.
2. I have over 20+ other characters to choose from if I /really/ felt like it.

Get rid of your ******** assumptions before you make yourself look even more dumb.

Please, don't even bother responding if you can't even understand the idea of option selects and the actual concept of neutral.

Why are you even here, dude?

 

[Phaiyte]

Why are you even here, dude?

Why is this thread still not locked lmao

 

[Foo]

You have a post onthis page claiming that I only believed this thread was ******** (which it is) because I "mained Ganon", which is unbelievably ignorant and short sighted of you.

Yep, that's TOTALLY what I said, word for word. Just like how I totally said these things, which you conveniently quoted for us.

"OMG MY CHARACTER'S NOT THE MOST BRAINDEAD PICK IN THE GAME ANYMORE OHHH NOOOOO"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY NEUTRAL LIKE EVERYONE ELSE NOW"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO TECH CHASE NOW WHHAAAAAAA"

Thank you for so expertly refuting things we are absolutely saying. I mean, they aren't verbatim, but everyone knows what a person says has a VERY loose bearing on what they said. Now please,

 

[ph00tbag]

3.0 ZSS was literally the most braindead character in the game, and nothing you say can refute that. Every single supporter in this thread are literally all saying "I don't want to learn how to play the game to actually be good at my character" lmao.

If you can't support your claim with rational balance theory and frame data analysis, I don't understand how you get to use language as bloated as "nothing you say can refute that." Until you present a rational argument for me to refute, you're just a bad troll.

 

[Yeroc]

I will put this bluntly, because others have said it until they are blue in the face
ZSS players don't give a **** about the numbers nerfs that the character was given.

ZSS players are upset and leaving the character, because she no longer has the same playstyle as 3.02
That doesn't mean the number tweaks you made were wrong, it means the changes you made that weren't number based were wrong.
Nerf our character to the ground. People will still player her if she has a fun playstyle.
If she plays like this, even if she was better overall then before (Which, she is CLEARLY isn't) people would still drop her because she isn't delivering the play experience they enjoyed.
You didn't **** up her numbers, you ****ed up her concept.

I got that message loud and clear. I have, however, seen a large number of requests that nair be reverted because players were unhappy that it no longer behaved a certain way that was supposedly crucial to her playstyle and flavor. I am simply informing that this specific request will not be entertained.

There's not much I can say about gameplay. The character design was very polarized, and the PMDT feels that having characters that are very lopsided in matchup spread isn't something we should just leave be. So we went with a design shift. I'm sorry you don't like more traditional Smash mechanics, but we felt this route was better for the character and better for the game as a whole.

 

[Shokio]

I got that message loud and clear. I have, however, seen a large number of requests that nair be reverted because players were unhappy that it no longer behaved a certain way that was supposedly crucial to her playstyle and flavor. I am simply informing that this specific request will not be entertained.

There's not much I can say about gameplay. The character design was very polarized, and the PMDT feels that having characters that are very lopsided in matchup spread isn't something we should just leave be. So we went with a design shift. I'm sorry you don't like more traditional Smash mechanics, but we felt this route was better for the character and better for the game as a whole.

But yet, the route you guys took with ZSS, you didn't take with other characters. That's my main gripe here. For some reason, your rules, standards, goals, etc, completely changed once you guys got to ZSS.

For example, you're like the 4th Back Room/Dev Team member to talk about a character being to polarizing. So since the Dash Cancel was "polarizing", you guys removed it. BUT:

1) Diddy's bananas were hella polarizing, but you guys didn't remove the banana mechanic altogether, you just toned it down.

2) Mewtwo's ability to act out of teleport was polarizing, but ya'll didn't remove it, you just toned it down.

3) Lucas's PK Freeze was polarizing, but it was kept in-tact and just toned down.

4) Pit's down throw was polarizing and OP as f***, but ya'll didn't kill that grab out of all the grabs that needed to be killed, if any. You decided to kill ZSS's for some reason.

5) Combing, chain-grabbing, or killing off of throws is a GENERAL Smash mechanic, that's literally been around since day one on the N64. Preventing ZSS from combo-ing off of grabs or chain-grabbing is literally making her incapable of accessing a critical part in Smash's core gameplay. 64, Melee, even some chars in Brawl.....this whole time chars have been able to get the most out of grabs. But for some reason, ZSS and ZSS alone is not allowed to do this anymore despite the fact that the rest of the roster can, because _________________.

As I've said before in the 3.5 discussion thread:

Then apply the proper changes to balance it out instead of removing it altogether. ZSS #1 strength is her mobility, it's part of the core of her character. The removal of the lasers killed part of the character. Nerfs and tweaks should tone down a character, not damage who they are.

Like I said in the post above, why not just have made them clankable while keeping the DC? If that wasn't enough, then how about clank-ability with a speed up (pretty much how it is now), meaning she'd have a smaller window to try to grab since the paralyzer is traveling much quicker in front of her.

There were many different ways to go about tweaking that. Seems like you guys just chose the easy route of just scrapping it altogether instead of trying to find a middle ground.

Btw, the ZSS-spacie MU is STILL one of the most lopsided MU's in Smash history. So seems like you guys didn't accomplish your goal of evening up MU's with ZSS.

Also, I have a challenge for everyone saying ZSS was polarized in 3.0:

Show me footage of a competent ZSS player (vs. another competent player) who's gameplay consisted solely around the paralyzer, and show me how OP, unbalanced, or unfair it was. Show me the DC laser shutting down another character's neutral game. I will wait.

 

[Stryker]

I got that message loud and clear. I have, however, seen a large number of requests that nair be reverted because players were unhappy that it no longer behaved a certain way that was supposedly crucial to her playstyle and flavor. I am simply informing that this specific request will not be entertained.

There's not much I can say about gameplay. The character design was very polarized, and the PMDT feels that having characters that are very lopsided in matchup spread isn't something we should just leave be. So we went with a design shift. I'm sorry you don't like more traditional Smash mechanics, but we felt this route was better for the character and better for the game as a whole.

Thank you for the reply. I totally get the want to expand on specific changes. So long as you are aware of the actually issues being had, and not just focusing on changes that most players are okay with while ignoring the larger problem

I like the "Traditional" smash mechanics. I play those characters focused on those as well.

HOWEVER, The reason I like 3.02 ZSS was that she did not play like a traditional smash fighter. That was her niche. That is what made me play her. If wanted to play a character that used "More traditional smash mechanics" in 3.02, I would have played another character. She was a character who main appeal was that her playstyle was different and interesting.

Now, she is a traditional smash fight that is fast and combo oriented. Now she is just one of the crowd. And now, you are going to lose people playing this character, because if someone wants the kind of character she is now, other characters are better designed for it. If someone wants to play the kind of character she used to be they can't.

Personally, I believe that it is well within the realm of possibility to have a character with ZSS's old playstyle while finding a line to keep it balanced. I truly believe that the tuning knobs and levels exist that would allow you guys to balance her instead of homogonizing her playstyle.
While I know the PMDT are not slackers, it comes off as lazy game design.

"This unique aspect of our game is causing issues."
The correct answer is "Well, let us balance and tweak a bit more so that we can keep this interesting mechanic while still providing a balanced experience."
The incorrect answer is "Well, lets just make it more like the rest of the game so that it doesn't throw everything off so much."

Again, I know the PMDT aren't slack, and they have to take the game as a whole into account, but this instance, it really comes off as settling for the easy way out.

 

[indyrenegade]

"Let's take her grab and make it better for her" - > "Let's change everything else to suit our change" = whytho

 

[ph00tbag]

1) Diddy's bananas were hella polarizing, but you guys didn't remove the banana mechanic altogether, you just toned it down.

2) Mewtwo's ability to act out of teleport was polarizing, but ya'll didn't remove it, you just toned it down.

3) Lucas's PK Freeze was polarizing, but it was kept in-tact and just toned down.

4) Pit's down throw was polarizing and OP as f***, but ya'll didn't kill that grab out of all the grabs that needed to be killed, if any. You decided to kill ZSS's for some reason.

5) Combing, chain-grabbing, or killing off of throws is a GENERAL Smash mechanic, that's literally been around since day one on the N64. Preventing ZSS from combo-ing off of grabs or chain-grabbing is literally making her incapable of accessing a critical part in Smash's core gameplay. 64, Melee, even some chars in Brawl.....this whole time chars have been able to get the most out of grabs. But for some reason, ZSS and ZSS alone is not allowed to do this anymore despite the fact that the rest of the roster can, because _________________.

For my part, I'd say these, among other things are reason the "normalization" talk seems misleading to me. ZSS was pretty damn normal in 3.02. Her fundamentals were centered around bair spam for crying out loud. The most not-normal thing she had was really just Paralyzer, and it really wasn't even particularly dominant; it just needed some trimming to make it look better, and have a bit more risk. Other than that, it was really just good ol' frames and distance. Even her explosive punish game wasn't totally out of the ordinary, when the options other characters have are taken into account.

So why is it that the Mother Kids are still Space Animals? Why can Mewtwo still act out of aerial Teleport? Why is Lucario still UMvC3 when the popular stipulation is that he should be ST? Ganondorf was given fly, for crying out loud, when his moveset doesn't complement the ability in any way, shape, or form!

I don't get the normalization talk when options that aren't, by any stretch of even the most creative imagination, normal in Smash, and with little real design theory justification, are retained for reasons that are utterly opaque to me, when one of the most normal characters has just about every even remotely unique option stripped from her tool kit. ZSS wasn't the only character inexplicably and drastically deprived of uniqueness like this, and in almost every case where it did happen, I cannot fathom why it happened to that character, and not some character with a tool that is obviously ridiculous.

 

[InfinityCollision]

There's not much I can say about gameplay. The character design was very polarized, and the PMDT feels that having characters that are very lopsided in matchup spread isn't something we should just leave be. So we went with a design shift. I'm sorry you don't like more traditional Smash mechanics, but we felt this route was better for the character and better for the game as a whole.

I'm really tired of this PR nonsense.

The playstyle changes utterly fail to address her polarized matchups and only clumsily address the lone "polarization" in her moveset that actually falls under the disputed changes - something that would have been better described as overtuned at best, rather than polarizing. That word has been thrown around far too much lately. Completely neutering it was not your only or even best option.

The grab change straight up does not do any of the things you've claimed it was intended to do in any way that actually improves the character on any meaningful level. All it does is simplify her gameplay in a non-productive manner, which as I've stated previously runs contrary to the stated goals of the PMDT. It should be reverted. Furthermore, this would pave the way for broader options in regards to handling paralyzer and potentially her design as a whole.

Justifying the mechanics changes as "because Smash" is incredibly transparent. This is the same series that gives us frame 1 attacks that you can JC on frame 4, autocancelable projectiles, the ability to float, 2-in-1 characters, a character with a unique shield, attacks with invincibility on startup, attacks that kill from 30% on frame 1, attacks that can spawn items, attacks that refresh your double jump, etc... Oh, and we're playing a mod that introduces a highly useful airdodge cancelable projectile, attacks out of teleport, items as an aerial movement tool, a character that cancels attacks in various unique ways, the ability to self-heal with and without interaction with your opponent, jump cancelable burst movement, etc and you're telling me this isn't "Smash"? That's arbitrary at best and smacks of rationalization.

Implying a broad dislike for "traditional" Smash mechanics is deliberately misleading. Liking ZSS because she fills a niche implies only that we appreciate her unique elements, not that we dislike what other characters bring to the table. You might as well say that Ness or Yoshi players hate "traditional" recoveries, it'd be just as nonsensical. What happens when you start considering usage of multiple characters?

The arguments presented in favor of these particular changes have been very underwhelming (responses regarding dair, dsmash, nair, etc have been far more productive and engaging, for what it's worth), as have the responses to efforts to explore alternatives. I suspect you made the change at least in part because normalization simplifies balancing (though this was not well addressed either, at least not by changes to ZSS herself), and quite possibly due to internal factors that clash with the goal of maintaining ZSS's core design. These changes were not made because it was in the best interests of her design or of the game as a whole, and the end result shows it.

I will reiterate my earliest thoughts on the matter: Zero Suit Samus' unique traits are integral to her character identity and contribute favorably to the game as a whole by promoting a unique, elegant, and non-degenerate playstyle. Subtle changes would have adequately served all parties as well or better than completely rewriting the book on the character as a whole.

 

[Player-3]

Why is this thread still not locked lmao

I love this guy


@ Shokio watch me vs gahtzu/fatality all i do is blaster spam haha!!!!

 

[Phaiyte]

Yep, that's TOTALLY what I said, word for word.

Ganon had a really bad matchup against ZSS because he DIDN'T have a way to deal with blaster very well, and he was also a perfect combo weight for her. I imagine that is what makes you feel this way. The only better matchup ZSS had was Bowser.

sit down

 

[JANKX]

I've been playing ZSS ever since she got introduced to PM, and my vote goes for 3.5, contrary to popular opinion. Despite losing her quirks, she plays a lot more consistently now, and I feel that her redesign promotes balance in context to the entire cast. I find it pretty unbelievable that people think she's so drastically changed that they're willing to abandon her, she's roughly 80% the same character. It's like knowing how to ride a bike all your life and then switching to a fixie: awkward at first, until you get experienced and realize the benefits.