Pessimism and Brawl

[Nintendude]

Obviously chain grabs blow, and it really angers me that they are in the game at all, but its not like 100% of the chars are broken.

This is a mentality that I don't understand. A chaingrab is just a combo that happens to be a string of grabs and throws. How is a non-infinite chaingrab different from something like DK comboing Fox with 5 uairs?

 

[corhor]

I used to love melee. My friend would sleep over every weekend and we'd play melee throughout the night. But after playing Braw and getting used to it, I can't stand melee.
I love the characters in Brawl and it seems more clean.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is a mentality that I don't understand. A chaingrab is just a combo that happens to be a string of grabs and throws. How is a non-infinite chaingrab different from something like DK comboing Fox with 5 uairs?

Since the latter can be DI'ed from and escaped, chaingrabs are inescapable until a certain percentage (falco) or until the stage ends (DDD)

 

[Yuna]

Since the latter can be DI'ed from and escaped, chaingrabs are inescapable until a certain percentage (falco) or until the stage ends (DDD)

Not in Melee where Donkey Kong could chain uairs into Giant Punch.

 

[choknater]

Well, I've just recently gotten into the whole competitive aspect of Smash Bros recently. I've played each iteration of the game RELIGIOUSLY, me and my brothers have always been the best, but we're still amateurs in the grand scheme of things. I went to Axis Gaming's West Coast Tourney and lost in the 4th round, but it was a blast. I now see way more potential for skill in this game that I thought possible. From someone trying to get into the comp scene, I love the game and will be playing it for years to come, and am very excited for the possibilities.

I love you.

There should be more people like this on smashboards.

Who cares if he's wrong about melee?

He has a positive attitude about Brawl despite the smash community's widespread opinion. I can only hope he doesn't fall into the traps.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not in Melee where Donkey Kong could chain uairs into Giant Punch.

I speak in general Yuna.
yeah there were inescapable comboes like the Uair~Giant Punch (awesome one btw) but in general you could escape through good DI.

 

[Yuna]

I speak in general Yuna.
yeah there were inescapable comboes like the Uair~Giant Punch (awesome one btw) but in general you could escape through good DI.

The question was why so many view chaingrabs as being much worse than Uair-chain into Giant Punch and other similar inescapable combos, though.

 

[ph00tbag]

The question was why so many view chaingrabs as being much worse than Uair-chain into Giant Punch and other similar inescapable combos, though.

I think it follows along the line of reasoning that sees technical play options as a good thing. In Melee, most (not all) inescapable combos and chain grabs required a lot of inputs in a short period of time, as well as a certain degree of DI reading. In Brawl, it's very much the other way around (although some CGs may require some ability to read DI, I'm admittedly fuzzy on those details).

On that note, many people are known to dislike Brawl for its rather untechnical play. Maybe it's just the association. Many chains in Melee were no more or less difficult to begin than in Brawl, but the continuation thereof is generally rather easy.

I think it's a very simplistic approach to the game to say it must be technical or it's horrible, but it's a widely held view.

 

[Makaris]

Kinda sucks that my join date ended up getting discussed rather than the content of my post on page 4, but such is the nature of forums I guess; endless tangents! :D

I'll ask it again since I think it's worth an answer and the discussion that could come from it could only be positive for the community.

Excepting execution, does Brawl have as much competitive value as Melee? If not, why? What makes its mind game so much worse that Melee’s?

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

I think it's just scrub mentality. Doing the same thing over and over is regarded as cheap no matter how much skill it takes, whereas flashy "impressive" combos are commended.

 

[Doyoudigworms]

For all intents and purposes Smash Brothers was never created as a traditional fighting game, it was revolutionary in it's design. But competitive gamers never took the franchise seriously until Melee, and understandably so. Although SSB64 was great, it was always better as a party game.

But because the Smash Brothers series is so dynamic and there are so many variables to the gameplay, it encourages casual wackiness, rather than confined tight playstyles.

We fell in love with the SSB engine, and tried to make it more competitive. We attempted to change the nature of the game to make the game we want to play. Which is pretty extreme to begin with, but as we all agree is much better that way. It started with eliminating items, then certain stages, and character exploits. Which isn't to radical, but we are trying to achieve a conventional fighter using unconventional standards.

So when Melee came around and competitive gamers got a hold of it, they realized it's potential. It became the most unique game around and was played for six years relentlessly.Pessimism is validated for legions of fans. Because no casual gamer lasts, the creators ignored the hardcore community to pacify the casual gamers, this is essentially Nintendo's marketing campaign. Your mom doesn't care about L-Canceling and wavedashing, but she sure does love Wii Sports.

So our efforts go unnoticed, we get swept under the rug. We are partially to blame because we try and make the game something it's not. But the creators are worse for blatantly ignoring the importance of a balanced fighter. They were too busy making a boring 1 player run and a failed WFC, that they ignored the most important aspects of any fighting game. Removing hit stun to rely solely on perfect shielding is absurd but we try and make it work. Compensating for larger then normal hitboxes is frustrating to say the least, I don't ever recall a fighting game that has a standing light punch(standing A) beat out a roundhouse(Smash move). But maybe that's just me.

Brawl as a game is not as competitive due to it's intended nature in creation, but the community is more competitive then ever, go figure.

I really just wanted something new, as did most fans. What we ended up getting wasn't what we expected.

 

[Nintendude]

Since the latter can be DI'ed from and escaped, chaingrabs are inescapable until a certain percentage (falco) or until the stage ends (DDD)

Um...no? Chaingrabs can be DI'd just like any other combo. The only exception I can think of offhand is D3's cg (and Brawl ICs cgs), but I'm using Melee for my argument anyway (since it has been implied that chaingrabs in general are bad). In Melee you can DI combos, but often times DIing a combo leads into another combo instead. The idea of DI in many cases was to confuse your opponent and hope that he reacts incorrectly to your DI.

There are a bunch of Melee chaingrabs that can be situationally escaped through DI as well. Off the top of my head there's IC down-throw/Dair, Marth/Roy f-throw, and Sheik d-throw. The characters that really sucked at getting out of chaingrabs were Fox/Falco, but they just so happened to be top tiers so who gives a crap that they can't DI out of the chaingrabs.

 

[tha_carter]

THIS IS NOT A MELEE VS. BRAWL DEBATE

Less than a year after the release of Brawl, we are already questioning if the game has hit it's peak. We constantly berate the game, people winning tourneys are often the ones who call the game terrible, pretty much everyone hates Sakurai by now, etc. It just seems like even people who genuinely like Brawl seem to berate it often, and its faults are being discussed as often as it's Meta Game is. It's about as bad as the disconnect with America's government and it's citizens, with people saying their lives are headed in the right direction but the government is ****ing up. Just like that example, we've seemed to have lost our optimism, we dont get excited when new things are discovered because very little seems to ever be discovered. We just dont have the spirit of "Hey our game is awesome, and it can only get better" anymore.

What I want to know is how many people here still really believe Brawl should exist as a competitive game, and even more importantly, would there have ever been a large competitive scene for Brawl if Melee didn't exist.

Discuss away, I really don't know what to say besides the fact that I do like Brawl, but if we have seriously reached its peak, I'm out.


(BTW, Just a side note, but people with some serious Melee experience commenting here would be great, but I swear to God if this turns into a Brawl vs Melee debate I will rip your nuts off.)

Ofcourse there would be a competitive scene. I doubt it would have started off so large, but the game is flat out FUN to play; thats always a good start.

As far as the "better person winning" as a competitive scene usually defines itself. Brawl has that potential; i dont think its quite there yet though. I can name numerous fighters that started out as flat-out button mashers, until YEARS later; when the game was finally mastered.

Right now, things are largely based on spacing, camping, and character matchups (which is sad to see). But given time; im sure that will change; as well as the Pessimism.

 

[Someone7]

I like going back to play Melee after playing Brawl for so long and I'm all like "Everything is moving so fast". It gives me a headache.

I think, since the Wii runs SSB64 (99.9% perfectly), Melee, and Brawl, all tournaments should involve all three games.

 

[Skler]

Uhhh...you can escape/shorten the uair -> giant punch combo by DIing off the stage. You still eat the punch, but you do so at a percent where you can survive. Combos are better than CGs because you can influence the combo while you're getting hit. It sucks to get hit and have no control (which is why Wobbling pissed everyone off so much).

 

[GofG]

Uh...


Why can't you influence the chain grab while you're getting CGed? Have you... you know... ever tried?

 

[Yuna]

Uhhh...you can escape/shorten the uair -> giant punch combo by DIing off the stage. You still eat the punch, but you do so at a percent where you can survive. Combos are better than CGs because you can influence the combo while you're getting hit. It sucks to get hit and have no control (which is why Wobbling pissed everyone off so much).

Do you even know what a chaingrab is? A chaingrab/combo you have no control over and where you're kept in the same position, thus prolonging it indefinitely is called an Infinite. If you can DI it, it's called a Chaingrab.

Wobbling is in no way a Chaingrab. For one thing, you don't regrab even once.

 

[Skler]

Do you even know what a chaingrab is? A chaingrab/combo you have no control over and where you're kept in the same position, thus prolonging it indefinitely is called an Infinite. If you can DI it, it's called a Chaingrab.

Wobbling is in no way a Chaingrab. For one thing, you don't regrab even once.

I didn't call wobbling a CG, I said it makes you stop controlling your character.

The CGs i was talking about were the Brawl ones, aka the IC's and DDD's infinite CGs, the Bowser (sort of) and Marth grab release CGs and all that other stupid ****. Those are chaingrabs and also infinites. Wobbles is the only Melee example of something that retardedly broken, and it's acceptable because it at least requires decent timing and certain conditions (nana being alive and close)

Yes you can influence a normal CG but they're frowned upon because it limits the control you have over your character a lot more than getting comboed (you can't smash DI throws except for puff's fthrow). You'll never smash DI out of a CG, it will last until you DI to the edge, the CGer messes up or the CG becomes impossible. People hate CGs because they're boring. It isn't just doing the same thing over and over again, it's doing the same thing over and over again while the other player can hardly influence what's going on. You can smash DI DK's uair combo off the edge so it lasts for a very short amount of time, you can't smash DI sheik's CG on FD to make it only last three grabs.

 

[Yuna]

The CGs i was talking about were the Brawl ones, aka the IC's and DDD's infinite CGs, the Bowser (sort of) and Marth grab release CGs and all that other stupid ****. Those are chaingrabs and also infinites. Wobbles is the only Melee example of something that retardedly broken, and it's acceptable because it at least requires decent timing and certain conditions (nana being alive and close)

I'm sorry, what part of "If a CG is infinite, it's classified as an Infinite" was too Catalan for you to understand?

When we say "chaingrabs", we mean chaingrabs which aren't infinite because those are, you know, infinites.

Yes you can influence a normal CG but they're frowned upon because it limits the control you have over your character a lot more than getting comboed (you can't smash DI throws except for puff's fthrow). You'll never smash DI out of a CG, it will last until you DI to the edge, the CGer messes up or the CG becomes impossible. People hate CGs because they're boring. It isn't just doing the same thing over and over again, it's doing the same thing over and over again while the other player can hardly influence what's going on. You can smash DI DK's uair combo off the edge so it lasts for a very short amount of time, you can't smash DI sheik's CG on FD to make it only last three grabs.

In Melee, there were plenty of combos you couldn't Smash DI out of either. You just DI:ed them best you could to limit how long they could go on, like with most chaingrabs.

 

[Vampirekain]

The whole thing just turned into a big nice debate over people understanding what a CG is and people who don't but speak like they do anyways!

 

[Nintendude]

You'll never smash DI out of a CG, it will last until you DI to the edge, the CGer messes up or the CG becomes impossible.

You can smash-DI ICs down-throw dair >_>

Also, it's really rare that a cg lasts until the edge unless it starts there. Even at the highest levels of play it tends to quickly evolve into a non-chaingrab combo (since cg's tend to lose effectiveness at mid damage) or the person cg'ing just screws up.

 

[unwelc0med]

i think that if melee never existed, brawl wouldn't have as big a competitive scene and not be as popular


i like both though.

 

[Skler]

I'm sorry, what part of "If a CG is infinite, it's classified as an Infinite" was too Catalan for you to understand?

I've heard DDDs infinite CG called both an infinite and a CG, it doesn't really matter which one you use, does it? Was my sentence so hard for you to understand that you absolutely had to point out that I should call it an infinite?

When we say "chaingrabs", we mean chaingrabs which aren't infinite because those are, you know, infinites.

It's a chaingrab and it's an infinite. You can call a poodle a dog or a poodle, it's both.

In Melee, there were plenty of combos you couldn't Smash DI out of either. You just DI:ed them best you could to limit how long they could go on, like with most chaingrabs.

Of course you can't smash DI out of everything (shine combos and short combos out of grabs), but most combos are less damaging than a CG. Since the best way to end a CG is to get to the edge and the edge usually leads to death.

As you said "The question was why so many view chaingrabs as being much worse than Uair-chain into Giant Punch and other similar inescapable combos, though."

I was giving you an answer (although you decided to dodge my point and go grammar nazi on me), it's because combos let the other player have a chance of escaping through good DI (or at least making it difficult). CGs are notoriously easy to do, combos aren't and let the player getting hit make landing each move a pain. It lets both sides show how good they are instead of letting one side show they can follow simple DI.

Basically, combos take more skill then CGs in addition to looking way cooler.

Edit: Nintendude, I know CGs from the pros tend to end a little before their max % because good payers know what leads to kill moves at what %s. Cging isn't less effective at medium %s, it's just that other combos (out of the grab) can deal more damage/combo into a kill move better. If I'm sheik and know my CG is about to end instead of getting a last grab I'll opt for a ftilt -> fair just to get a little more damage.

 

[Yuna]

I've heard DDDs infinite CG called both an infinite and a CG, it doesn't really matter which one you use, does it? Was my sentence so hard for you to understand that you absolutely had to point out that I should call it an infinite?

No, but you immediately assumed I was talking about infinites when I mentioned Chaingrabs.

And people can call it what they want. To prevent confusion, it should be called the Infinite or Infinite Chaingrab.

It's a chaingrab and it's an infinite. You can call a poodle a dog or a poodle, it's both.

I'll use your own analogy against you. If someone says "Dog!" in a discussion, it'll prompt the question "What race?" if it's relevant. Why do it the hard way and force the question when you can specify from the very start; "Poodle".

The same goes for Infinite Chaingrabs vs. normal ones. Just add "Infinite" if it's infinite.

Of course you can't smash DI out of everything (shine combos and short combos out of grabs), but most combos are less damaging than a CG. Since the best way to end a CG is to get to the edge and the edge usually leads to death.

1) Not all chaingrabs lead to death.
2) Most chaingrabs in Melee (and some in Brawl) don't inflict that much damage because of how much you can DI them/slide and because the throws themselves do not inflict that much damage. Also, Stale Move Negation.

I was giving you an answer (although you decided to dodge my point and go grammar nazi on me), it's because combos let the other player have a chance of escaping through good DI (or at least making it difficult). CGs are notoriously easy to do, combos aren't and let the player getting hit make landing each move a pain. It lets both sides show how good they are instead of letting one side show they can follow simple DI.

How easy something is to do technically is inconsequential. Calling something more broken because it's easier to pull off technically is nothing but scrubby.

I didn't dodge anything at all, you made a faulty assumption. And chaingrabs do not work like you claim they do.

Basically, combos take more skill then CGs in addition to looking way cooler.

1) "They take more skill" - Depends on the combo and depends on the chaingrab. And it doesn't really matter if the chaingrab is only as good as the combo or worse, now does it? Uair chains into Giant Punch is way better than Peach's 40-50% chaingrab on fastfallers (Melee).
2) "They look cooler" is irrelevant.

 

[Skler]

Usually in Brawl threads where chaingrabs are mentioned the CG is an infinite, those are the only ones people ***** about. Nobody really complains about Falco's CG because it isn't broken, although getting 40% or so in Brawl is a pretty big deal (this isn't a shot at Brawl).

The CGs that are used in Melee tend to be very powerful, or at least more powerful than an inescapable combo. Marth grabbing a Fox or Falco usually takes away a stock, sheik grabbing a low tier usually results in loss of stock. Some chain grabs are pretty weak (Peach's CG) but the ones most people talk about do plenty of damage and lead to powerful moves. Marth's CG alone isn't anything special, but he can combo out of it into a kill move. That's pretty **** strong. There aren't many inescapable combos that deal damage near the level of a CG in Melee except for Fox shine combos on certain characters (and those are infinites for the most part). Even in the inescapable combos it is difficult to do the combo perfectly while reacting to your opponents DI. CGs are very simple versions of an inescapable combo that require less tech skill (I think tech skill is a skill, so CGs require less [tech] skill than combos). Harder to do = more skill required for the most part.

tl;dr, if tech skill is really a skill then comboing is more skilled than chaingrabbing (unless you're doing a really technical chaingrab).

 

[MarKO X]

word. because running up to your opponent and pressing teh grab button isn't skill. It's just inputs.

 

[Sliq]

Grabbing someone to set up a CG, I would argue, is harder to do in Melee since if you spaced properly and/or l-canceled, you could keep your opponent from grabbing you.

In Brawl, there is no l-canceling, so all you can really do is space.

Furthermore, there is less shieldstun, so people can grab you before you are even able to weave away from them in order to space.

Seriously, you can pick Dedede and just mash grab out of shield and win since the CG to f throw does 30-40% almost everytime and sets up for an edge guard (against certain characters).

Also, Melee was a lot faster, so you could trick your opponent, and keep them from being able to "catch" you in a grab by overwhelming him with speed. Unless he was also good, in which case he could do the same in order to achieve this grab.

In Brawl, Dedede can just literally run around and just spam grab against certain characters and obliterate them with almost 0 thought.

Personally, I would prefer getting Melee chain grabbed over Brawl chain grabbed, since Melee chain grabs involve a little DI reading ability, and some tech skill, where as in Brawl you have 0 control over your character after grabbed, and the throw is going to happen the same over and over.

It is these attributes, the notion of Melee: Training Wheels Edition, that I feel a majority of the pessimism comes from. It's like Sakurai saw us playing Melee and was like, "Awww, isn't that cute....BUT IT'S WRONG!", and then plopped Brawl down in front of us, patted our heads, and said, "Now pway nice you cutiepies."

Sakurai, pretending to be a cowboy.

I don't think anyone likes being talked down to, but I guess Nintendo seems to think we do.

Basically, they made the broken even more broken, but easier to do. So it's Melee minus the cool. I mean, for god sake, they made CAPTAIN FALCON LOW TIER. I rest my case (Jigglypuff pun).

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

brawl has reached its peak. im trying to sell my wii because of it

 

[Zoro]

Brawl sucks except ganon samus and captain falcon

 

[i.E.]

This website is for the DISCUSSION OF COMPETITIVE SMASH. This subforum, Brawl Tactical, is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE DISCUSSION OF COMPETITIVE TACTICS IN COMPETITIVE SMASH. Get the **** out.

lol....Gofg, you're an ***.
......
.....
.......
but you're right, and i love you.
sincerely,

-old jokebattles friend


.....on topic though, I really DO think brawl has reached it's peak; the game engine only allows so much. There are character specific techs, but nothing along the lines of wavedashing (except for yoshi, which...i don't care lol). In a nutshell, I think the reason we're all so "negative" about brawl is because melee did everything brawl does, and then it did way more on a technical level....so we were expecting that kind of game.

But is brawl a good fighting game and competitively viable? Yea, sure it is...it's just not a "great" competitive game. It's a great "game", hell, it's an outstanding game...but competitively speaking it isn't as good as what a lot of people thought it should be, including myself.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The question was why so many view chaingrabs as being much worse than Uair-chain into Giant Punch and other similar inescapable combos, though.

I guess because they feel... helpless.
Least in a combo you know you can DI and try to limit it.
Or that there may be more room for error nit he combo.

 

[falcova15]

well at least you guys aren't arguing over the same thing a day later, though how you got talking about CG i dunno.

 

[Yuna]

I guess because they feel... helpless.
Least in a combo you know you can DI and try to limit it.
Or that there may be more room for error nit he combo.

Most CGs (in Melee) can be DI:ed. CGs in Brawl can be DI:ed as well. DI:ing limits them (well, most of them).

Yet people whined and still whine about CGs as being "cheaper" than combos.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*shrug* As I said I don't know why people consider CG's worst.

Maybe its also because they are the only true combos in brawl that can actually cause some damage and hence its viewed as unfair.
Since only a few characters can CG and the great majority can't it would make sense.
only theory I can think up of though.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's because Chaingrabs are spammable at most percentages.

And I don't think Brawl has reached it's peak. Sure, we may have reached it as far as technical moves go, but how we use them is a whole different story. Wavedashing was found out very early in melee's life but it wasn't used effectively until a few years later. That's the state Brawl is in right now.

Melee was much more competitive, yes, but I think Brawl has a much better chance at being more popular competitively than Melee was (hear me out before you start up the flames). Melee had a lot of ATs and skills, and it is a lot more faster. Brawl however is slower and less technical.

Long story short, Sliq said it right.

Melee: Training Wheels Edition

Which also means that it's a lot more accessible to the entire fanbase, and it's more strategy-based than skill-based. It's an easy-pick-up-and-play, but it'll take months, maybe a year or two to master a character against all other characters.

With that said, I'm quite optimistic about Brawl. I never got on the competitive side of Melee (I only used some of the ATs, like L-Cancel and short-hop), and seeing how things are now, I'm pretty glad I never did. Otherwise I'd probably be just as bitter about Brawl as all the other melee vets are.

 

[OrlanduEX]

We are only giving Brawl attention because it has "Super Smash Bros" in the title. It isn't really comparable to the very deep, complex and well developed game that Melee is. We are unenthusiastic mainly because we don't see Brawl becoming much more than it is now. We hoped for (and we are still hoping for) a true successor to Melee, but Brawl is more of an imitation. It's all glitz and glamor, new (boring) subspace emissary, new (crappy) online play, new (useless) stickers, but lacking in new interesting gameplay mechanics to get us excited.
We're unenthusiastic because Brawl is pretty much Melee when it first came out, devoid of complexity, and it doesn't seem like it will change anytime soon.

 

[MarKO X]

It's not all CGs I hate. Just IceClimbers. It's auto-win once you get grabbed.

But really, their CG is like Alpha3 V-ism infinites...

 

[Yuna]

It's because Chaingrabs are spammable at most percentages.

Or not. Most chaingrabs in Melee were damage-dependent. Some chaingrabs in Brawl still are.

Which also means that it's a lot more accessible to the entire fanbase, and it's more strategy-based than skill-based. It's an easy-pick-up-and-play, but it'll take months, maybe a year or two to master a character against all other characters.

More accessible to anyone =/= Good (it's doesn't mean it's bad, either. It means bupkis when it comes to Competitive viability)

Strategy is a huge part of skill. You need mindgames (i.e. strategy) to win. I cannot recall how many people I've beaten in Melee who were obviously better than me tech-wise, yet lost to me when it came to mindgames.

It does not take a year or two to master one single character in Brawl. The game isn't deep enough to require that much practice... unless you only practice an hour a week.

With that said, I'm quite optimistic about Brawl. I never got on the competitive side of Melee (I only used some of the ATs, like L-Cancel and short-hop), and seeing how things are now, I'm pretty glad I never did. Otherwise I'd probably be just as bitter about Brawl as all the other melee vets are.

Or you would still hate Brawl for the suckfest that it is. Seriously, if I had never played Melee Competitively, I would never even consider picking up Brawl. If Brawl was my first Competitive Smash game, I'd declare the entire series bad and go back to Gekitou Ninja Taisen, Soul Calibur and Guilty Gear.

Anyone who has insight into Competitive gaming would be disappointed with Brawl's glaring flaws. Just because we played Melee Competitively doesn't mean we're somehow more prone to hating Brawl, it just means we're more educated than, say, Random Newbie who's never played a fighting game before and picks up Brawl.

Knowledge = Cynism

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Or you would still hate Brawl for the suckfest that it is. Seriously, if I had never played Melee Competitively, I would never even consider picking up Brawl. If Brawl was my first Competitive Smash game, I'd declare the entire series bad and go back to Gekitou Ninja Taisen, Soul Calibur and Guilty Gear.

Anyone who has insight into Competitive gaming would be disappointed with Brawl's glaring flaws. Just because we played Melee Competitively doesn't mean we're somehow more prone to hating Brawl, it just means we're more educated than, say, Random Newbie who's never played a fighting game before and picks up Brawl.

Knowledge = Cynism

Keep in mind, many of us don't generally like fighting games. I wouldn't play Brawl if it were anything like Soul Calibur or Guilty Gear. Heck, I play Brawl because it's the only fighting game I'm willing to devote the time necesary to get good at it, and origonally I only did this because I liked free-for-all item fests. I've gotten past that now, but Brawl is for people who like a different style than what is typical among competitive video games.

 

[Yuna]

Keep in mind, many of us don't generally like fighting games. I wouldn't play Brawl if it were anything like Soul Calibur or Guilty Gear. Heck, I play Brawl because it's the only fighting game I'm willing to devote the time necesary to get good at it, and origonally I only did this because I liked free-for-all item fests. I've gotten past that now, but Brawl is for people who like a different style than what is typical among competitive video games.

There are all kinds of people. I'm merely saying "Bla, bla, people only hate Brawl because they loved Melee" is one of the most BS arguments there are.