Personal Tier List

[ShadowzVoid]

Hi everyone! I was just messing around in photoshop and decided to make my personal tier list
I just wanted to know your opinions on it. Happy Smashing!

 

[Duplighost]

I really think it's cool you're putting your input on this, but it would be better to share it on another thread.

Try this thread:
SWF Community Tier List Discussion

 

[ShadowzVoid]

I really think it's cool you're putting your input on this, but it would be better to share it on another thread.

Try this thread:
SWF Community Tier List Discussion

Wait isnt that a Wii U/3DS thread?

 

[Duplighost]

Big thanks! Just wanted to know if there is a way to delete threads. I'm kind of a buster when it comes to forums

You're welcome! This thread doesn't have to do with Melee, but it's a community tier list. I can't seem to find a Melee one.

And don't worry, I still have trouble around the forums as well.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

You're welcome! This thread doesn't have to do with Melee, but it's a community tier list. I can't seem to find a Melee one.

I'll definitely look into it. Thanks again.

 

[AirFair]

The last community melee tier list discussion was 2 years ago. We've been trying to start one up, but the topic of discussion is whether or not that's the most effective and accurate way.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

The last community melee tier list discussion was 2 years ago. We've been trying to start one up, but the topic of discussion is whether or not that's the most effective and accurate way.

I honestly think that since Melee has had a recent uprising of players that it's about time for another community tier list. Also a few things could change like in my personal tier list

 

[Squire]

To be real,

This is no longer accurate. So we do need that community melee tier list discussion to come back.

 

[EddyBearr]

I still don't think it's time for a new tier list. I would wait until EVO, either just after or just before. Any tier list made right now would probably be quite reactionary based on Apex results (EX: I've seen a lot of Yoshi is 7th, Marth is 1st, Falco is 4th/5th, and Falcon is like 11th, on peoples' tier lists.)

 

[Squire]

I can agree to waiting until after EVO, just to really pile up some extra data. But seriously, Yoshi is comically low compared to what we've seen people do with him lately. Also, Luigi's recent surge in popularity has helped flesh him out as a viable character. I'm sure there are more issues with that list, but those were the first two to come to mind.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

I'd say wait til EVO is over, but we definitely need one this year

 

[Spak]

(EX: I've seen a lot of Yoshi is 7th, Marth is 1st, Falco is 4th/5th, and Falcon is like 11th, on peoples' tier lists.)

I disagree with those peoples' lists. Marth shouldn't be above Falco and Fox, Yoshi shouldn't be that high (still worse than Gannon IMO), and Falcon should remain S-Tier because he's such a good character. He has far from the best moveset, but his aerials are amazing and his character properties mean he has the best mobility of anyone in the game.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

I disagree with those peoples' lists. Marth shouldn't be above Falco and Fox, Yoshi shouldn't be that high (still worse than Gannon IMO), and Falcon should remain S-Tier because he's such a good character. He has far from the best moveset, but his aerials are amazing and his character properties mean he has the best mobility of anyone in the game.

How do you think of my tier list?

 

[Squire]

Right. Where are my manners? This is a thread asking for opinions on your list. I would rearrange your #9 - #12. I see it as Samus -> Pikachu -> Doc -> Ganondorf, but I could be wrong.

 

[MarthZ]

Marth needs to be higher

 

[Squire]

Marth needs to be higher

Marth is an extremely strong character, and did well at Apex, but looking at your name, picture, and main list, I can't help but think you JUST MIGHT be a little biased.

 

[MarthZ]

Marth is an extremely strong character, and did well at Apex, but looking at your name, picture, and main list, I can't help but think you JUST MIGHT be a little biased.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

I could see Marth possibly being above Sheik, but I think top 8 placings are just fine, the scores just need to be changed. Also you definitely seem biased

 

[Squire]

I don't think a video of M2K's Marth two-stocking a Fox on youtube is a definitive argument for Marth to move a tier spot.

 

[Spak]

How do you think of my tier list?

I think that Peach should be higher than Jiggs, Doc should be just above or just below Pikachu (can't make up my mind), DK should be below Link, Mewtwo should be below G&W, and Bowser should be lower than Pichu.

Keep in mind that I'm also coming at this tier list with my own biases and opinions which should be taken with a grain of salt; I've only been studying the meta consistently for about two or three years.

The power of Falcon.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

The power of Falcon.

Dude Falcon is the best

 

[Squire]

He may not be number one on the tier list, but he's number one in the hearts and minds of the people.

 

[GMan1255]

I have recently picked up playing melee because I got into competitive sm4sh. I completely suck at it. But I find it odd that the "official" tier list hasn't changed in a long while. Personal bias makes me want to say G&W should be a little higher, but I know how easy he is to kill, but he seems to be able to combo well.

 

[Squire]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. I like G&W too, but he's not very good in Melee.

But yes, the official tier list is quickly becoming an archaic document from a time long past. Idk much about Sm4sh. I play it sometimes with friends who aren't competitive at all. Their current tier list can't be too accurate either though, right? If you look at the first Melee tier list it's laughably inaccurate. I feel like in a few years that's how the sm4sh players will feel about theirs as well.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

Yeah G&W is not as good as he is fun

 

[EPsilon933]

Shine tier
Fox
Falco

Boring tier
Sheik
Jigglypuff

Princess tier
Marth
Peach

Wobble tier
Ice Climbers

Awesome tier
Captain Falcon

Doesn't exist tier
Other characters

 

[MarthZ]

I don't think a video of M2K's Marth two-stocking a Fox on youtube is a definitive argument for Marth to move a tier spot.

I thought it didn't need words but m2k always moves a character up atleast 10 spots XD thats why I chose that vid cuz its awesome

 

[Lorenzo The Comic]

That's Mew2King you're talking about. He is a Smash God, after all.

 

[Squire]

Generally speaking, the skill of the player is going to far outweigh the character's abilities. M2K is just a very, very good player. Marth is a solid character, but that's not all that goes into it. A friend of mine described a tier list in a way I really liked. He said "it's not that a high tier character is better than other characters, it's that you can do more with a high tier character."

Any character can do well in the hands of a master, up to a certain level of competitive play. DjNintendo's Bowser just won grand finals at Xanadu last week against a very competent Falco. At a bi-weekly I used to go to, there was a Roy who could take out a lot of good players simply because he had a strong grasp of his character and solid fundamentals. Would he place better if he had that kind of knowledge of Fox or Sheik? Probably. But his choice of main wasn't really working as a handicap for him because he knew exactly what he was doing with his Roy.

 

[MarthZ]

meh you can do way more with Marth ken combo and ****

 

[Squire]

Right. But why is that necessarily better than Falco's pillar combo? His recovery is worse than Fox's. He can't gimp the ledge as well as Sheik. See what I'm saying? There's a lot more to think about than a ken combo and a long grab range.

I get that you're a big Marth fan, and that's great. I love seeing people who have what my friends and I jokingly refer to as "a spirit bond" with their mains. It's really cool to see someone who sticks with their character through good times and bad.

At the same time, and I hope you don't mind me saying this, you seem to be kind of new to melee? I don't mean it as an insult, and I don't want to sound like I'm being condescending. It just seems to me like you're using things like M2K's performance against a lesser player, and a combo that everyone knows about when they go into the match-up, to justify Marth being higher on the tier list than his already high #4 spot, without really looking for weaknesses with the character or comparing him to the others.

I honestly think Marth is right where he belongs at #4 from my personal experience, which admittedly isn't anything awe-inspiring, but I've been to my fair share of fests and tournaments.

 

[EddyBearr]

I think Marth is a definite #3. Even with spacies, barely loses to Sheik, even or beats everyone else (only even with a few.)
Sheik, by contrast, can be argued as losing to both spacies, then also Puff and IC's.

Marth has more potential to win a major than Sheik.

 

[EthereaL]

I think an interesting analysis would be to score characters on a proportional system (i.e. results scaled proportionately to number of entrants with a given character), and to discount all of the Melee Gods, to see how characters would scale. You would use the smash majors from 2012 onward for your data.

It seems counter-intuitive ("character matchups should account for only the highest possible competitive play"); however, at the truly "optimal" (TAS) level play, virtually all characters are equal, due to perfect power-shields / move startup lag.

Using tournament data scaled for the proportional number of entrants would be more likely to show the current progress / abilities of the given character in relation to the others.

Note: Not that I agree with that school of thought. I, personally, think that the tier list should reflect the utmost humanly possible level. However, I do think it's interesting that Puff is rated so highly on the backs of two players, each who are considered one of the best six to ever play the game. I also think it's interesting to rate Fox as #1 when only one player (Mango) has ever won a major with him.


Edit:

For those interested, in the Genesis event, the next 4 players who placed outside of the Melee gods were Zhu (Fox / Falco), Scar, Darkrain, and Hax. Top 8 was rounded out by 3 Falcon players.

Genesis 2, the next 4 ourside of the Gods were: Taj (Marth), Shroomed (Dr. Mario), S2J (Falcon), and a 3-way tie between SFAT (Fox), MacD (Peach), and Hax (Falcon).

Apex 2010, the 4 were Axe (Pikachu), Wobbles (IC), Jman (Fox), and Zhu (Falco).

Apex 2012, the 4 were Javi (Fox), KirbyKaze (Sheik), Hax (Falcon), and Shroomed (Dr. Mario).

Apex 2013, the 4 were Shroomed (Dr. Mario), Hax (Falcon), KirbyKaze (Sheik), and a 4-way tie between Vwins (Peach), Axe (Pikachu), Overtriforce (Sheik), and Silent Wolf (Fox).

Apex 2014, the 4 were Colbol (Fox), s0ft (Puff), Fiction (Fox), and a 4-way tie between Ice (Sheik), MacD (Peach), aMSa (Yoshi), and Axe (Pikachu).

Apex 2015, the 4 were aMSa (Yoshi) ALSO OH MY GOD FIFTH PLACE WITH YOSHI, KirbyKaze (Sheik), Shroomed (Sheik), and a 2-way tie between Nintendude (Ice Climbers) and PewPewU (Marth).

Evo2013, the 4 were Wobbles (Ice Climbers), Ice (Sheik), Shroomed (Dr. Mario), and a 3-way tie between Silent Wolf (Fox), SFAT (Fox), and Hax (Falcon).

Evo2014, the 4 were Axe (Pikachu) ALSO OH MY GOD FIFTH PLACE WITH PIKACHU, Fly Amanita (Ice Climbers), Silent Wolf (Fox), and a 3-way tie between Chillin (Fox), PewPewU (Marth), and Plup (Samus).

 

[EthereaL]

For those who are wondering, the character breakdown is as follows:

Falco 2
Fox 11
Puff 1
Peach 3
Yoshi 2
Falcon 8
Marth 3
Samus 1
Dr. Mario 4
Pikachu 4
Sheik 7
Ice Climbers 4

In terms of number of times they placed top 4 (discounting the Melee Gods).

I'd be interested in seeing the % breakdowns of those, relative to the number of entrants (and their character choices) per event. I have not analyzed the data, but I would wager you would see that the data supports these claims:


Jigglypuff is vastly overrated, due to the few amount of high-level placements in spite of a large number of entrants with the given character.

Falco is vastly overrated, due to the few amount of high-level placements in spite of a large number of entrants with the given character.


As well as other trends emerging that I don't have the motivation to articulate.

 

[GMan1255]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. I like G&W too, but he's not very good in Melee.

But yes, the official tier list is quickly becoming an archaic document from a time long past. Idk much about Sm4sh. I play it sometimes with friends who aren't competitive at all. Their current tier list can't be too accurate either though, right? If you look at the first Melee tier list it's laughably inaccurate. I feel like in a few years that's how the sm4sh players will feel about theirs as well.

The Sm4sh list right now is completely inaccurate. I can actually play that one decently, and people are still figuring out more and more everyday about characters. I really just want two years to pass so people stop arguing so much about it. It is really annoying to hear people go off about "its too early for a tier list" and "it only reflects the current meta, it will change when we know better". People just need to chill out about it right now. Speaking of "Spirit Bonds", that's me with Game and Watch xp I love that monochromatic 2-Dimensional spaz machine!

 

[kingPiano]

Credits: MS Paint
Shoutouts to Comic Sans - Top Tier Font

 

[r.f.m]

it isn't the character you're playing it's the player behind it

 

[IC-Rambler]

Yoshi still that low?

Pika worse then Ganon?

I dunno...

 

[ShadowzVoid]

Yoshi still that low?

Pika worse then Ganon?

I dunno...

Do you actually think Yoshi should be super high just because of aMSa? Seriously there are close to no other Yoshi players that actually place. The Ganon over Pikachu thing is just my preference

 

[IC-Rambler]

Do you actually think Yoshi should be super high just because of aMSa? Seriously there are close to no other Yoshi players that actually place. The Ganon over Pikachu thing is just my preference

If I'm not mistaken, tier lists are based on their theoretical best, or best while under human limits. So the "amsa" discussion ceases there. But even if we were to argue with consideration to tournament results, Yoshi would still be higher. Now, I don't know too much about Yoshi, but I'd at least put him above Mario.

Honestly I'd put pikachu above Ganon just for his speed.