Personal Tier List

[EddyBearr]

https://youtu.be/WclOwdwxYcI?t=4m18s

Here's one example, a common combo on battlefield even easier to land on FFers and in many variations (incl. only one aerial as I've been talking about on flat). This is Vist; the Luigi main, doesn't even really play Roy. And that's Chudat, not sure if you need a history lesson but he pretty much was the first Young Link ever way back in the day...so go actually watch some good Roys and you will see everything I've talked about and more.

SHFFL aerial > Fsmash is literally one of the staples of any Roy player (I've seen M2K, Sethlon, Pyro, Neo, Vectorman, and Ken all use it) just like Multiple D-tilts > F-smash & D-throw > Fsmash/D-smash & U-throw > F/U Smash & CG > Smash can 0-death most top tier FFers with DI following and tech chasing. The fact that you don't know this and are trying to argue it just shows how little experience and knowledge you have about Roy. Run the imaginary scenarios in your head and run the numbers incorrectly on a spreadsheet all you want. I have little to no motivation to make you "believe" since it's a waste of time and you seem quite biased.

That wasn't a SHFFL aerial, though. That was a juggling sequence started with the final uair being preceded by a full hop. You kind of went off on a tangent with that.
Additionally, Chu didn't seem to TDI any of that, with the exception of the first fair which he smash DI'd in and upwards. If Chu has simply DI'd the first or second uair to the left, then the best thing Vist could have done is wet noodled him.

I'll Roy ditto mm you for $20 if you ever come to MN.

 

[kingPiano]

That wasn't a SHFFL aerial, though. That was a juggling sequence started with the final uair being preceded by a full hop. You kind of went off on a tangent with that.
Additionally, Chu didn't seem to TDI any of that, with the exception of the first fair which he smash DI'd in and upwards. If Chu has simply DI'd the first or second uair to the left, then the best thing Vist could have done is wet noodled him.

I'll Roy ditto mm you for $20 if you ever come to MN.

Here we go again the argument johns and avoiding the point altogether...

Good lord just go watch any vid of a high level Roy. You'll see SHFFL aerials > F-smashes in almost every match

"If you want to make me a believer in high percent aerial -> Fsmash with opponent having proper DI and spacing"

You asked for high percent aerial > F-smash....c'mon kid

And I'll take you up on that MM $20 seems a bit low though, I say we do $100 to make it worth both of our time. I don't make it up to the Midwest very often.
Just from your current knowledge of Roy it shouldn't be much of a match.

 

[Comet7]

Says the guy that to puts Pichu above Roy and Ness, then argued about Ness's match-ups, then admitted to not having any clue about the character...yea par for the course, you two are peas in a pod

Roy has a 100% invincible Ledgestall because of his FF speed and small double jump this already makes his ledge game safer than even Marth's and definitely Pichu's.

Also not that you even care (since you don't seem to care about practical use), but Pichu's puny wavedash distance makes his ledge dash pretty much insignificant. By the time you land and can act, the invincibility is over and you just get the lag of the WD ending and you've barely covered any distance. That's why you don't see it used at all like you do with a character who actually have good ledge-dashes like Fox/Sheik.

TAS frame perfect ledge dash for Pichu is only 15 frames of invincibility, but you will never achieve that consistently just like people can't really hax dash consistently. There are much wiser options for him such as invincible nair and fair (4% self DAMAGE) onto stage.

you're still annoying. you should really try not attacking the arguer more. i could talk about how most of what you say was garbage and bring up the fact that you generally get disagreed with a lot, but i don't see much of a point in it, and neither should you.

yeah and generally people are smart enough to get back on stage even without invincible ledge stalls (and i already knew about the stall btw). also don't diss marth's fair and up air from the ledge, those > invincible ledge stalls any day for overall ledge play.

15 frames > can't act. mmk lol. it's an OPTION, and a legit one, and i never said it was good. roy's isn't good either, hence the "neither are particularly good." about haxdashing: people have been doing it for a while now, lol. i don't know if your scene doesn't have many people that use it or even use characters that really benefit from it, but there have been some samus, falcon, and even marth mains doing it (i don't remember too much on marth, but i'm pretty sure his just isn't that useful).

and sometimes there are things other than nair that can and should be used. have a nice day and enjoy your PHIR3.

 

[Rachman]

I'm a Falcon secondary and I can can haxdash with 1-3 frames of vulnerability and I'm certainly not very good. Don't care too much about all this petty bickering (especially when we are arguing about how bad a bad character is....c'mon) but just wanted to say that people CAN do all sorts of things that seem really hard when they are just muscle memory. Also, if Pichu has 15 actionable frames from his/her ledge dash that's really good regardless of the actual distance of the ledge dash.

Err, I suppose I should contribute to the thread and post my own tier list
SS: Fox Marth Falco Sheik
S: Falcon Puff Peach ICs
A: Yoshi Pika Samus Luigi
B: Doc Ganon Mario
C: Ylink Link DK maaaaaaybe G&W
I legitimately think Falcon will separate himself from Puff/Peach in time but that's yet to be proven so I'm hesitant to state that as fact.
Anyways, after my C tier I either don't really know much about them or I just don't think they're worth using as a serious main that makes it out of pools at a major. I think A tiers and above are capable of placing extremely well (top 8) at majors without much surprise and B tiers could do it but it'd definitely turn some heads if they did it as a solo main. C tiers have match ups which are extremely difficult or have glaring flaws which are difficult, but not impossible, to overcome.

 

[kingPiano]

you're still annoying. you should really try not attacking the arguer more. i could talk about how most of what you say was garbage and bring up the fact that you generally get disagreed with a lot, but i don't see much of a point in it, and neither should you.

yeah and generally people are smart enough to get back on stage even without invincible ledge stalls (and i already knew about the stall btw). also don't diss marth's fair and up air from the ledge, those > invincible ledge stalls any day for overall ledge play.

15 frames > can't act. mmk lol. it's an OPTION, and a legit one, and i never said it was good. roy's isn't good either, hence the "neither are particularly good." about haxdashing: people have been doing it for a while now, lol. i don't know if your scene doesn't have many people that use it or even use characters that really benefit from it, but there have been some samus, falcon, and even marth mains doing it (i don't remember too much on marth, but i'm pretty sure his just isn't that useful).

and sometimes there are things other than nair that can and should be used. have a nice day and enjoy your PHIR3.

Yes people who disagree with me seem to be just like you and Muted, they argue about characters and subjects they really don't know much about. Those opinions pretty much mean nothing, because they are informed by nothing solid or practical.

I'd rather have people like Vectorman or Pyro agree with me than 80 people that look at data only and maybe place low in their local scene (if at all) agree with me. Also if you go back to the Pichu thread you'lll see that some people agreed and replied to my post about Ness, same with the Roy discussion at the other thread (we've beat this horse dead).

I'm a Falcon secondary and I can can haxdash with 1-3 frames of vulnerability and I'm certainly not very good. Don't care too much about all this petty bickering (especially when we are arguing about how bad a bad character is....c'mon) but just wanted to say that people CAN do all sorts of things that seem really hard when they are just muscle memory. Also, if Pichu has 15 actionable frames from his/her ledge dash that's really good regardless of the actual distance of the ledge dash.

Err, I suppose I should contribute to the thread and post my own tier list
SS: Fox Marth Falco Sheik
S: Falcon Puff Peach
A: Yoshi Pika Samus Luigi
B: Doc Ganon Mario
C: Ylink Link DK maaaaaaybe G&W
I legitimately think Falcon will separate himself from Puff/Peach in time but that's yet to be proven so I'm hesitant to state that as fact.
Anyways, after my C tier I either don't really know much about them or I just don't think they're worth using as a serious main that makes it out of pools at a major. I think A tiers and above are capable of placing extremely well (top 8) at majors without much surprise and B tiers could do it but it'd definitely turn some heads if they did it as a solo main. C tiers have match ups which are extremely difficult or have glaring flaws which are difficult, but not impossible, to overcome.

There's a reason you don't see Hax dashing at really high level now, it's not worth it and Marth actually has to FF to stay 100% inv. there's a high chance to SD and it's a waste of inputs for the most part. And when I say Hax Dash I'm talking 100% inv. that's kind of the whole point and makes it worth the risk...otherwise you get bopped out of it easily and it could be when you've used your DJ. Then you're screwed.

And as i was saying Pichu does not benefit from the full 15 frames of inv. unless you WD on ledge the first possible frame. His jump and movement is so fast that it's not really possible consistently and more likely you get 5-7 frames of usable inv. and a teeny tiny dash on that is pretty much a waste. Again can't recall a time I've ever seen a Pichu use or capitilize on this "amazing ledge dash inv. length" Try it out even at 1/4 speed it's very difficult and very disappointing IMO.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

Once again incorrect, you misinterpret the data.

Roy still has the 6th longest pretty much tied with Yoshi and under Marth, the 10th spot is actually 7th since supposedly a "perfect computer TAS max angle wave-dash" has 4 people tied for 6th (which are only 0.29 longer trollolol). In practical use and testing you will find that Roy has a Wavedash that actually seems longer than Yoshi's, and the minute differences are lost. It's substantially longer than Pichu's very tiny and near unusable WD. Go and actually test this yourself it's pretty easy, but you will need a copy of Melee first and something to play it on. Looking at data and not actually playing the game really isn't a good way to discuss practical usage and gameplay mechanics.

For instance you were even wrong just looking at the data about DD, Roy's is categorically better even on paper. But a DD is rated on many factors you can't just tell by looking at numbers such as: grab range out of it, WD distance out of it, Fox-trot, Pivot Area (Roy's is substantially wider since his frame is much larger), other attack and defense options out of it, and the amount of effective space the character can cover (Roy's body extends out about 2-3 times longer horizontally). Pichu only has a little bit faster dash speed, but everything else starting with the DD distance is inferior to Roy's.

And it's not cynicism, when people try and attack the facts I present and then just start making stuff up or trashing on a character without having any real experience with them I'm going to call them out on their naivety and ignorance. Otherwise this site is useless and you just get a bunch of trolls and BS'ers.

Obviously Roy can do more out of a DD, he is better than Pichu for crying out loud. Pichu has better movement with his DD, Roy has more options. I don't understand how I could just be "wrong" about the data by looking at it.

 

[Comet7]

king is still like a tsund without being nice on the inside. xD

if you're going to say that then roy's ledge game is ^&*( since you have to have some technical proficiency to do his at all and he wouldn't even have an invincible ledge dash and no fox mains should be able to waveshine consistently... if you actually have technical skill and practice this stuff, then it's not a problem.

pichu and roy's goals are generally the same except roy grabs better (also pichu's throws>roy's throws) and pichu's nair is better than roy's down tilt and has slightly more combo ability.

the horse has been beaten dead because a certain someone here gets pissy whenever somebody presents facts and then pulls whatever out of his ass to support his own argument.

 

[kingPiano]

king is still like a tsund without being nice on the inside. xD

if you're going to say that then roy's ledge game is ^&*( since you have to have some technical proficiency to do his at all and he wouldn't even have an invincible ledge dash and no fox mains should be able to waveshine consistently... if you actually have technical skill and practice this stuff, then it's not a problem.

pichu and roy's goals are generally the same except roy grabs better (also pichu's throws>roy's throws) and pichu's nair is better than roy's down tilt and has slightly more combo ability.

the horse has been beaten dead because a certain someone here gets pissy whenever somebody presents facts and then pulls whatever out of his *** to support his own argument.

Can tell you've never done one single ledge dash with Roy...not going to bother anymore. You are starting to reach new heights in ridiculous man. It was Spak that started talking about Roy and a few others that said he's not in the bottom tier I just actually gave more actual reasoning to clear up the ignorance. So far the 3 people that have argued with me have already been proven wrong multiple times; Bismo especially on this thread, and you yourself have a history of arguing on topics that you admit later to having no actual experience or knowledge about. You just look stuff up as you start an argument and make it up as you go to back up your initial bias and try to sound more experienced than you actually are (a re-occurring theme on this site). Funny thing is that Bismo and Eddy pretty much have the same tier list as me, but for some reason they just love arguing about Roy - a character they don't have very much experience with.

So Comet7 you blocked me a while back because you felt like being a drama queen (blocking as you can see really does nothing), then you cry about it, then you tell me you will not be responding to any of my posts, now you try and talk crap behind my back, and now you've come full circle and are responding to all my posts and reading them.

 

[Comet7]

Can tell you've never done one single ledge dash with Roy...not going to bother anymore. You are starting to reach new heights in ridiculous man. It was Spak that started talking about Roy and a few others that said he's not in the bottom tier I just actually gave more actual reasoning to clear up the ignorance. So far the 3 people that have argued with me have already been proven wrong multiple times; Bismo especially on this thread, and you yourself have a history of arguing on topics that you admit later to having no actual experience or knowledge about. You just look stuff up as you start an argument and make it up as you go to back up your initial bias and try to sound more experienced than you actually are (a re-occurring theme on this site). Funny thing is that Bismo and Eddy pretty much have the same tier list as me, but for some reason they just love arguing about Roy - a character they don't have very much experience with.

So Comet7 you blocked me a while back because you felt like being a drama queen (blocking as you can see really does nothing), then you cry about it, then you tell me you will not be responding to any of my posts, now you try and talk crap behind my back, and now you've come full circle and are responding to all my posts and reading them.

*looks at kadano's spreadsheet* *roy has 5 actionable frames if done perfectly* okay, pichu can get wherever roy would be with invincibility and throw out more invincible stuff, so that's out of the way. what bias? all i see is numbers, which i've never explained the extent of. i put them all in garbage tier, fyi. deciding where they were wasn't just an "oh i think pichu is underrated." i just took all the knowledge about the characters and made a tier list on the personal tier list thread. and hell this is all just an opinion thread since what makes a character good is different in everyone's eyes since we all weigh how valuable options are differently. i'm just of the opinion that roy is second last (i'll actually give last to bowser now since he also has awful MUs). think what you want, just don't harass me and others about their opinions.

your history is 20XX worse than mine lol. if you look at what you say, nothing really makes sense and people just don't bother with you, probably because of not wanting to argue with "where is your experience you're a scrub" while you post misinformation. when people eventually post FACTS like the up air/fair not true comboing to f smash you just go and whine. i also look my stuff up well and don't open my mouth up to talk about wrong stuff unless i say "this is just something to consider" or "oh i was wrong about x thing", which is DEFINITELY a sign of pretending to know a character.

i just saw low tier discussion and thought "well who could this be" and just said some FACTS. you're also fun to troll since you act like facts are wrong. xD man i wonder when i'll be warned. i only replied to you for the fun and to prevent some misinformation. discussing low tiers also helps me learn more about them (knowledge is power).

 

[kingPiano]

*looks at kadano's spreadsheet* *roy has 5 actionable frames if done perfectly* okay, pichu can get wherever roy would be with invincibility and throw out more invincible stuff, so that's out of the way. what bias? all i see is numbers, which i've never explained the extent of. i put them all in garbage tier, fyi. deciding where they were wasn't just an "oh i think pichu is underrated." i just took all the knowledge about the characters and made a tier list on the personal tier list thread. and hell this is all just an opinion thread since what makes a character good is different in everyone's eyes since we all weigh how valuable options are differently. i'm just of the opinion that roy is second last (i'll actually give last to bowser now since he also has awful MUs). think what you want, just don't harass me and others about their opinions.

your history is 20XX worse than mine lol. if you look at what you say, nothing really makes sense and people just don't bother with you, probably because of not wanting to argue with "where is your experience you're a scrub" while you post misinformation. when people eventually post FACTS like the up air/fair not true comboing to f smash you just go and whine. i also look my stuff up well and don't open my mouth up to talk about wrong stuff unless i say "this is just something to consider" or "oh i was wrong about x thing", which is DEFINITELY a sign of pretending to know a character.

i just saw low tier discussion and thought "well who could this be" and just said some FACTS. you're also fun to troll since you act like facts are wrong. xD man i wonder when i'll be warned. i only replied to you for the fun and to prevent some misinformation. discussing low tiers also helps me learn more about them (knowledge is power).

Well at least you keep admitting to trolling (this is like the second time), I don't think you started out that way but since you've said so many inconsistent things you had no other choice than to exclaim you were "trolling all along". Just waiting for Bismo to come out with it now, not sure if he realizes it yet.

"i also look my stuff up well and don't open my mouth up to talk about wrong stuff unless i say "this is just something to consider" or "oh i was wrong about x thing", which is DEFINITELY a sign of pretending to know a character."

yep totally agree with your own words there, you definitely pretend to know a character....A LOT. Look it up all you want, watch like 1 video and read some wiki entries....I prefer to play the character in actual matches and have the data to compliment my knowledge.

You blocked me and bothered to tell me about it because you wanted a reaction. What's the point when you still respond, talk crap about me, and try to instigate? Pretty much the definition of a troll.

 

[EddyBearr]

@ kingPiano It really doesn't work out well to baselessly assume everyone who disagrees with you is inexperienced, be it with Roy or with the game in general. I'd be more willing to have meaningful discussions with you if you bettered your approach to discussion.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

@ kingPiano It really doesn't work out well to baselessly assume everyone who disagrees with you is inexperienced, be it with Roy or with the game in general. I'd be more willing to have meaningful discussions with you if you bettered your approach to discussion.

ikr

 

[ShadowzVoid]

I'm surprised this thread got so popular
It became more of a Roy argument than a tier list discussion though

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

I made a personal tier list on another board here: http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=86143 (also, how do you hyperlink?)

inb4rageaboutkirbyandfalcon

 

[kingPiano]

I made a personal tier list on another board here: http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=86143 (also, how do you hyperlink?)

inb4rageaboutkirbyandfalcon

Some odd choices that I feel could be objectively argued:
Such as your sky high G&W placement, Peach way too low, and Pika/Ganon should definitely not be above Ice Climbers. But it's a personal tier list, someone else can do the arguing if they like.

I pretty much have Kirby in the same surprising spot. I've always thought he wasn't as bad as people constantly regurgitate about, and I've been playing him seriously at locals and doing work as of late. Kirby has a surprisingly easy time with all the top tiers except Fox - his shine can obliterate you. Falco is the same difficult match-up as Fox until you steal his lasers, then Kirby jumps up like 15 spots on the tier list, and own him since Kirby with Falco's laser is so OP. As long as you don't get multi-dair'ed off the stage you can beat a good Falco. Sheik's attacks and grab can be ducked under (get her needles and own her), Marth - Roll to tilts = ownage (hard for him to punish), Falcon is cheesecake. Can also duck under both their grabs and some of Falcon's moves (such as his jabs, Dsmash, F smash, Ftilt, Falcon Punch, his Dair can miss you easily, often the the Falcon Kick can go right over you).

Yes Kirby has bad movement and can't combo easily, but the two cons can be offset by the fact that he's hard to combo, has a long recovery, and a great gimp/edgegaurd game. If you are patient and you approach with a wall of fairs and bair, roll u-tilt/d-tilt, grab jab resets, edgeguard with Bair and Dair, and Swallowcide smartly it's possible to beat good players consistently even when then learn the matchup.

 

[TheCandyman]

I made a personal tier list on another board here: http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=86143 (also, how do you hyperlink?)

inb4rageaboutkirbyandfalcon

I agree with KingPiano about G&W in high tier. For a character with an almost non existence shield and actually can't L-cancel with 3 aerials, slow ass moves, lack of dedicate mains and placings AND it's clear that 9 does mean 9/10

And Peach is way to low for turnips and down smash shenanigans almost alone.

 

[Comet7]

I made a personal tier list on another board here: http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=86143 (also, how do you hyperlink?)

inb4rageaboutkirbyandfalcon

armada is a guy.

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

armada is a guy.

notice the lack of as
"no one else is good as her"
no "as good as her"

I was referring to no one else being amazing(ish) as Peach.

 

[Spak]

notice the lack of as
"no one else is good as her"
no "as good as her"

I was referring to no one else being amazing(ish) as Peach.

Mac D is a good peach, Stingers is good, and there are a number of other good Peaches out there.

 

[kingPiano]

Yes and there's Vwins too. Actually Peach gets really good representation at nationals, but even if no one mained her at all she'd still be top tier, actually she'd be Peach Tier.

Seriously I don't know what kind of situation she's got going on under that dress, but Dsmash 50-70 damage if she catches you slipping? Her undercarriage is OP, Mario letting her run wild.