Personal Tier List

[ShadowzVoid]

If I'm not mistaken, tier lists are based on their theoretical best, or best while under human limits. So the "amsa" discussion ceases there. But even if we were to argue with consideration to tournament results, Yoshi would still be higher. Now, I don't know too much about Yoshi, but I'd at least put him above Mario.

Honestly I'd put pikachu above Ganon just for his speed.

Going by your logic Mario should actually stay since DJ Nintendo recently won a Xanadu using only Mario and Bowser. Guess we should move Bowser up too (Not really though). Yoshi being above Mario is fair play but anywhere higher I don't understand.

 

[kingPiano]

Do you actually think Yoshi should be super high just because of aMSa? Seriously there are close to no other Yoshi players that actually place. The Ganon over Pikachu thing is just my preference

Yea Ganon over Pikachu is kind of a joke because just the speed and gimping power alone that Pikachu has on top tiers is enough, and Pikachu is about 1/4 of the size, much harder to combo, has exponentially better recovery, better DD, etc.
As for the 1v1 matchup Ganon would get absolutely wrecked by a Pikachu, just would take a few well placed tail spikes. He's too small and fast for Ganon.

If I'm not mistaken, tier lists are based on their theoretical best, or best while under human limits. So the "amsa" discussion ceases there. But even if we were to argue with consideration to tournament results, Yoshi would still be higher. Now, I don't know too much about Yoshi, but I'd at least put him above Mario.

Honestly I'd put pikachu above Ganon just for his speed.

Yea you are a bit mistaken it's based on proven matchup knowledge, tourney results, and current meta. Maybe the first tier list was more theoretical, but at this point it's really just about consistent results.

Mario above Yoshi will never happen because Mario is a much easier character to learn, very easy combo ability, better recovery, better edge guarding on top tiers, has a throw that doesn't suck and it can CG and set up KOs. Another issue is that Yoshi is sort of gimmick based; meaning that once you figure out his terrible weakness (no special jump, knock out of dbl jump, no OoS options, horrendous roll, crap throw, slow aerial start up mobility, bad ground speed), he's easy to adapt to and dominate. Mario has no real weaknesses or extreme strengths that can be figured out and exploited. The meta will start to put Yoshi back where he currently is once people get more familiar again, Mario won't devolve in the same way since he's already seen steady exposure.

AmSa is a very special case just based on his insane parry timing and egg sniping. VectorMan and Fumi paved the way they have equally intimidating Yoshi's but AmSa is basically like the Mew2King of Yoshi, doubt anyone else will surpass him or equal him ever.

Going by your logic Mario should actually stay since DJ Nintendo recently won a Xanadu using only Mario and Bowser. Guess we should move Bowser up too (Not really though). Yoshi being above Mario is fair play but anywhere higher I don't understand.

That's a S@X, it's not a national or even a large regional. It's a weekly local pretty much, there just happens to be good players that might compete every once and a while. Doesn't really count for anything.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

Yea Ganon over Pikachu is kind of a joke because just the speed and gimping power alone that Pikachu has on top tiers is enough, and Pikachu is about 1/4 of the size, much harder to combo, has exponentially better recovery, better DD, etc.
As for the 1v1 matchup Ganon would get absolutely wrecked by a Pikachu, just would take a few well placed tail spikes. He's too small and fast for Ganon.



Yea you are a bit mistaken it's based on proven matchup knowledge, tourney results, and current meta. Maybe the first tier list was more theoretical, but at this point it's really just about consistent results.

Mario above Yoshi will never happen because Mario is a much easier character to learn, very easy combo ability, better recovery, better edge guarding on top tiers, has a throw that doesn't suck and it can CG and set up KOs. Another issue is that Yoshi is sort of gimmick based; meaning that once you figure out his terrible weakness (no special jump, knock out of dbl jump, no OoS options, horrendous roll, crap throw, slow aerial start up mobility, bad ground speed), he's easy to adapt to and dominate. Mario has no real weaknesses or extreme strengths that can be figured out and exploited. The meta will start to put Yoshi back where he currently is once people get more familiar again, Mario won't devolve in the same way since he's already seen steady exposure.

AmSa is a very special case just based on his insane parry timing and egg sniping. VectorMan and Fumi paved the way they have equally intimidating Yoshi's but AmSa is basically like the Mew2King of Yoshi, doubt anyone else will surpass him or equal him ever.



That's a S@X, it's not a national or even a large regional. It's a weekly local pretty much, there just happens to be good players that might compete every once and a while. Doesn't really count for anything.

Guess you're right about the Pikachu over Ganon thing. And yeah I was just using Xanadu to make a point.
The reason I have Ganon over Pikachu is that I feel he has better matchups, but I guess I'm wrong.

 

[kingPiano]

Guess you're right about the Pikachu over Ganon thing. And yeah I was just using Xanadu to make a point.
The reason I have Ganon over Pikachu is that I feel he has better matchups, but I guess I'm wrong.

I hear you. I personally like Ganon and Mewtwo much better than Pikachu, but the way this game is stacked and knowing the top tiers bag of tricks Pikachu just has an easier time in bracket in my opinion.

A Ganondorf with enough skill can win a national in the future, Mewtwo unfortunately I don't think could ever. He's way too light, way too big, and almost all his moves have the worst hitbox/hurtbox ratios. Kirby actually has an easier time against skilled top tiers in actual practice since he has easier KO potential, can duck attacks and grabs, can be hard to combo, he's small, can space much better, and has great recovery. All this actually makes him more viable IMO.

As far as recent results:
With Kirby; Triple R almost beat Bizzarro Flame (took a match off him, all 3 games were close). And Mooninite; who rarely uses Kirby, beat Crimson Blur - Marth Main (Team OXY founder and ranked higher). Triple R recently made Top 8 in a large Midwest regional with Kirby (Darkrain, Mew2King, Kels, Dart, etc were all there).

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

If I'm not mistaken, tier lists are based on their theoretical best, or best while under human limits. So the "amsa" discussion ceases there. But even if we were to argue with consideration to tournament results, Yoshi would still be higher. Now, I don't know too much about Yoshi, but I'd at least put him above Mario.

Honestly I'd put pikachu above Ganon just for his speed.

Tier lists are not entirely based on potential. A large part of it is tournament placings in the recent meta with at least more than person. So aMSa is not enough to prove Yoshi is a top-tier, just a mid-high tier.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

First off, as a huge advocate for Falcon's viability, he should be switched with ICs. Due to a drastic decrease in notable placings since Shroomed gave him up, I think Doc should be lower. I think there are 4 mid-tiers that are better than the others (Doc, Pika, Samus & Ganon) and the correct order for today's meta is Samus, Pika, Doc, Ganon. Weegee is fine where he is, but I think Yoshi is better than Mario. DK should be beneath the Links imo. I also think the A and B tier split should be moved so YL is A and Link is B. Since Qerb has actually taken sets off of top players, I will make a bold statement and say that G&W and Mewtwo should be switched. Bottom tier is fine. So, basing mine off of yours, my list would be

S: Fox, Falco, Sheik & Marth (tied), Puff, Peach, ICs, Falcon
A: Samus, Pikachu, Doc, Ganon, Luigi, Yoshi, Mario, Young Link
B: Link, DK, Mr. G&W, Roy, Mewtwo, Zelda
F: Ness, Bowser, Pichu, Kirby.

 

[ShadowzVoid]

First off, as a huge advocate for Falcon's viability, he should be switched with ICs. Due to a drastic decrease in notable placings since Shroomed gave him up, I think Doc should be lower. I think there are 4 mid-tiers that are better than the others (Doc, Pika, Samus & Ganon) and the correct order for today's meta is Samus, Pika, Doc, Ganon. Weegee is fine where he is, but I think Yoshi is better than Mario. DK should be beneath the Links imo. I also think the A and B tier split should be moved so YL is A and Link is B. Since Qerb has actually taken sets off of top players, I will make a bold statement and say that G&W and Mewtwo should be switched. Bottom tier is fine. So, basing mine off of yours, my list would be

S: Fox, Falco, Sheik & Marth (tied), Puff, Peach, ICs, Falcon
A: Samus, Pikachu, Doc, Ganon, Luigi, Yoshi, Mario, Young Link
B: Link, DK, Mr. G&W, Roy, Mewtwo, Zelda
F: Ness, Bowser, Pichu, Kirby.

Nice list! Probably more accurate and better than mine, haha

 

[Comet7]

High
SS / PAL PLEASE: Fox
S / Shattered but not as broken as Fox: Falco, Marth
A / Nobody likes us tier: Sheik, Puff
B / Epsilon has the best Peach: Peach, Ice Climbers
Mid:
C / Falcon is inconsistent: Samus, Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu, Luigi
D / People won't like me for this one: Doc, Ganon, Mario, Young Link (what was I thinking with YL>Mario...)
Low-Mid:
E / ITT: How to make a bad character: Donkey Kong, Link, G&W
Low:
F / Low tier users have swag and Roy is overated: Pichu, Ness, Mewtwo, Kirby, Zelda, Bowser, Roy

B was really close since I judge it by MU's and I don't know much about Peach and Ice Climbers aside from basic matchups. I felt that Young Link also wasn't as bad as to deserve Low-Mid Tier since he has usable neutral (much better than Link) and more tools than Low-Mid. I don't feel like Low tier should be divided since all those guys have weird tools that are good but are awful everywhere else. Pichu I feel is different since he has a lot of moves that are good and can do a bit of everything, but whenever he gets hit "LOL." Kirby > the others since I don't see what tools they have that outclass his neutral, matchup spread, and gimping in comparison. Roy just has f smash and spacie CGs on FD which is still a pretty bad MU on that stage.

 

[Spak]

Roy should be higher on your list, Comet. D-Tilt combos into almost anything, he can combo B-Throw into a smash, he has the best rest punish in the game (reverse Blazer is a OHKO on Jiggs on some stages), his counter can be used to read a hard read by the other person and has some edgeguarding potential, his tilts are decent, and D-Smash (and U-Throw if they're at a high percent and you have trouble closing the stock at the high one hundreds) can kill as well as F-Smash. Falling Uair combos into F-Smash and although he isn't viable because his hitstun is absolutely horrendous, he doesn't have nearly as many problems as any of the F-tiers. I think he belongs at least above G&W.

 

[Comet7]

Spoiler

down tilt doesn't really combo into much on non fast fallers... just use appropriate combo DI. i'm pretty sure back throw can be DI'd or jumped out of. reverse blazer isn't guaranteed and if you miss is like saying "hit me now i'm dead" if he has damage through whatever is appropriate for a lighter fastfalling marth with worse recovery. counter only has 12 counter frames and doesn't even reward that much while leaving you vulnerable if you don't get the read. it has some edgeguarding potential but it's nothing gamebreaking (biggest that comes to mind is against a firefox directly below). his tilts are meh since his reach doesn't do much if you get the tip and they don't have much hitstun at all (like most of his moves in general). down smash is actually decent with crouch canceling and a read so there's that but it doesn't have a ton of range and is otherwise limited in use. for f smash just imagine a worse marth f smash with less range because nobody cares about the tip. up air to f smash is also unreliable. he has fire though. :> also having to kill with up throw at around 150 % (i think this is where puff dies) or whatever is kinda sad...

hm let's see. awful recovery, bad aerials, awful combo weight, low combo ability, bad OoS options, not a good gimper, possibly the worst matchup spread in the game... that's a lot of problems. he pretty much just has his ground game which he can't get much off of from hits which will mainly be dd down tilt or grab, but he's at least okay in neutral. generally speaking, though, the other low tiers also have more tools than he does. i guess he might be better than bowser but he has fortress OoS and some weird tools that i at least personally consider more valuable than roy's.

mewtwo is good at edgeguarding and has some double jump/teleport tricks that are cool and better up throw and recovery, wavedash makes his mobility okay-ish, and he combos fastfallers just as hard as roy does, and shadow ball is good, and killing up throw. his moves are generally really clunky though and his floatyness works against him as well.

kirby has a decent ground game (and duck goes with this), good aerials (up air kills :D), good gimping, and semi-okay recovery (if he's really careful, but i don't know the specifics). however, he just doesn't have anything that's "really good" unlike a lot of other characters who have something. he pretty much has the same things as roy in general but with other benefits.

ness has good aerials with killing bair, autocanceling dair, ranged fair, decent nair, and comboing up air. he combos fastallers, has the killing back throw, and double jump tricks. i think his lack of recovery hurts him along with being kinda bad at everythign not mentioned as his strengths but i'm not really sure tbh.

zelda's kicks are just really good (like a better falcon knee) as an OoS option, safe on shield, and has a few other attacks that are weird but useful including a bit of combos on fastfallers. camp her and she can't really do much about it though. her mobility also sucks.

pichu has good gimping, good OoS with nair, good ground game, good aerials (nair better than fox's, bair is a worse nair but still good, up air has dumb disjoint, dair is good against cc), a few good vertical disjoints, combos fastfallers, and has a projectile. he suffers from some range problems and easy combo weight at low % and dies really fast but i think his abundance of tools over weighs his weaknesses compared to other low tiers.

i didn't talk about bowser since he's pretty unknown to me...

Edit: Also i've seen this debate around 5 months in the past month or two so i'm not going to bother replying. Also SDI reverse blszer into the other hits to escape.

tldr: i think the other low tiers' strengths outweigh roy's even with their weaknesses kept in mind. i knew i'd get yelled at about this.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

I think there is a definite rearrangement necessary of the top tier especially, and high/mid tier could do with a bit of shuffling. I think it'll probably look something like this.

Top Tier -characters I believe can win major tournaments; have no flaws glaring enough to REQUIRE a secondary to cover.
1)Fox
2)Marth
3)Falco
4)Sheik (although I believe Sheik could jump to 2-3 with development)
5)Puff
6)Peach (tough call between peach/puff, and my decision is partly based on Armada's switch)
7)ICs
8)Falcon

High Tier -characters I believe could possibly win a major, or that have good potential to place decently. Usually have a weakness.
9)Yoshi
10)Pikachu
11)Samus
12)Dr Mario
13)Luigi
14)Mario
15)Ganondorf
16)Young Link (my unorthodox pick)

Mid Tier - characters suited for situational use, effective counters or secondary use, but too weak to win consistently at high level.
17)DK
18)Mewtwo
19)Link
20)Roy
21)Zelda
22)Game n Watch

Trash tier -characters that are so bad that in the case of two similar players, the character will lose the game.
23)Ness
24)Pichu
25)Bowser
26)Kirby

 

[Spak]

Spoiler

down tilt doesn't really combo into much on non fast fallers... just use appropriate combo DI I'm pretty sure back throw can be DI'd or jumped out of. reverse blazer isn't guaranteed and if you miss is like saying "hit me now i'm dead" if he has damage through whatever is appropriate for a lighter fastfalling marth with worse recovery. counter only has 12 counter frames and doesn't even reward that much while leaving you vulnerable if you don't get the read. it has some edgeguarding potential but it's nothing gamebreaking (biggest that comes to mind is against a firefox directly below). his tilts are meh since his reach doesn't do much if you get the tip and they don't have much hitstun at all (like most of his moves in general). down smash is actually decent with crouch canceling and a read so there's that but it doesn't have a ton of range and is otherwise limited in use. for f smash just imagine a worse marth f smash with less range because nobody cares about the tip. up air to f smash is also unreliable. he has fire though. :> also having to kill with up throw at around 150 % (i think this is where puff dies) or whatever is kinda sad...

hm let's see. awful recovery, bad aerials, awful combo weight, low combo ability, bad OoS options, not a good gimper, possibly the worst matchup spread in the game... that's a lot of problems. he pretty much just has his ground game which he can't get much off of from hits which will mainly be dd down tilt or grab, but he's at least okay in neutral. generally speaking, though, the other low tiers also have more tools than he does. i guess he might be better than bowser but he has fortress OoS and some weird tools that i at least personally consider more valuable than roy's.

mewtwo is good at edgeguarding and has some double jump/teleport tricks that are cool and better up throw and recovery, wavedash makes his mobility okay-ish, and he combos fastfallers just as hard as roy does, and shadow ball is good, and killing up throw. his moves are generally really clunky though and his floatyness works against him as well.

kirby has a decent ground game (and duck goes with this), good aerials (up air kills :D), good gimping, and semi-okay recovery (if he's really careful, but i don't know the specifics). however, he just doesn't have anything that's "really good" unlike a lot of other characters who have something. he pretty much has the same things as roy in general but with other benefits.

ness has good aerials with killing bair, autocanceling dair, ranged fair, decent nair, and comboing up air. he combos fastallers, has the killing back throw, and double jump tricks. i think his lack of recovery hurts him along with being kinda bad at everythign not mentioned as his strengths but i'm not really sure tbh.

zelda's kicks are just really good (like a better falcon knee) as an OoS option, safe on shield, and has a few other attacks that are weird but useful including a bit of combos on fastfallers. camp her and she can't really do much about it though. her mobility also sucks.

pichu has good gimping, good OoS with nair, good ground game, good aerials (nair better than fox's, bair is a worse nair but still good, up air has dumb disjoint, dair is good against cc), a few good vertical disjoints, combos fastfallers, and has a projectile. he suffers from some range problems and easy combo weight at low % and dies really fast but i think his abundance of tools over weighs his weaknesses compared to other low tiers.

i didn't talk about bowser since he's pretty unknown to me...

tldr: i think the other low tiers' strengths outweigh roy's even with their weaknesses kept in mind. i knew i'd get yelled at about this.

D-Tilt combos into U-Tilt or U-Smash if they try survival DI and F-Smash or F-Tilt with combo DI. B-Throw can be DI'd so that they are out of baser range, but a lot of the time people think you're going for a different throw or don't know what to think, so you can get decent kills or percent off of B-Throw if you mix up throws. Reverse blazer is ensured if you time it correctly (like anything else that isn't RNG-based) and note that I listed it as a rest punish so that there is no chance of the opponent avoiding it. His counter has lots of reward for punishing a hard-read Falcon Punch and is very rewarding (enough knock back to kill if they have at least a decently small percent), but other than that I agree that it's not the best at dealing with moves that don't have an absurd amount of lag (8 frames startup isn't very good for a reaction-based counter).

His sweetspotted hitboxes are severely underrated because while Marth's sourspotted hitboxes take priority over tipper, Roy's baser hitboxes take priority over the sourspots. Roy's F-Smash is actually close to the tipper in power and since sweetspot hitboxes have priority (also making it good for edgeguarding a failed sweetspot), it has a bigger sweetspot than people give it credit. Still doesn't have the range of the tipper, though. I kill a lot before I reach 150 (all it takes is either good spacing while baiting an attack or a roll/tech read), but U-Throw is there just in case I can't finish off the stock.

His recovery is bad, but better than some would think. He can do first hit of DED while off-stage, then Up-B sweetspot the stage. Since his sword extends above him, this can be hard to edgeguard (other than the roll-on-stage in the same way Marth is vulnerable to). Then when he gets back to the stage, he can ledgestall like Marth. He does have a pretty horrible combo game, but he has far from the worst MUs in the game. Roy's whole game is CC-ing and he has pretty good smashes, decent grabs, good tilts, and is good at punishing.

The main thing with Roy is that you should avoid taking him into the air. I don't care how much Falco personally prefers it, don't let him go up there. The only aerial that's worth your time is falling Uair to combo into a tilt or a smash and very occasionally a sweetspotted Bair when they are positioned correctly. Nair is also decent, but I usually only use the first hit and go autocancel->grab. A lot of your time will be spent on the ground trying to either get a read to start a combo (if they DI incorrectly) or CC into D-Tilt (starts a combo; start to rack up damage) or try to kill (with D-Smash). He also has all of Marth's movement benefits, meaning if you learn how to use him and his movwment well, comboing actually becomes feasavle. It won't be top-tier comboing, but you start to link together at least a few huts. I'm not saying Roy is good, I'm just saying he's better than you are giving him credit for.

 

[EddyBearr]

Young Link is not better than Mario.

 

[MitoRequiem]

Does anyone else see Young Link's potential? I feel like that character can go places, most people I talk to argue that Link is better but I strongly disagree.

I also feel Shiek and Marth are better than Falco but I have no hard proof to back it up just feelzzzzzzzzjaioahdouahuoahdoad

P.S. I'm also one of the few that think YL is better than Mario don't bully me pls :>

 

[BBOY15]

Everyone who says Yoshi shouldn't be a lot higher because only AMSA is a notable player needs to remember something: The tier list is about the highest level of play, so anything except that highest level of play is irrelevant, meaning you should base Yoshi's placement on how well the best Yoshi player can do with him.

Keep in mind guys to be careful when saying someone should switch between A tier and B tier. A tier is the viable tier, and B tier is a non-viable tier. There is a HUGE difference between viable and not viable. You are making a big statement if you switch a character between them.

At the page 1 discussion: Marth better and I mean BETTER not be the best character in the game. Do you realize how lame it would be if the easiest character to learn in the game was also be the best character at the highest level? That would go against everything Melee stands for.

 

[spy_]

I'm pretty crappy, but I watch a lot and follow the scene so i'll just put my two cents in:

It's a surprise if one of these doesn't win a major
1) Fox
2) Falco
3) Marth
4) Sheik

Can see winning a major/consistent top8
5) Puff
6) Peach
7) Falcon
8) ICs

In the right hands, these characters can place respectably-- occasionally reaching top8 at majors
9) Samus
10) Pika
11) Luigi
12) Yoshi
13) Doc
14) Ganon

Serious limitations and not too many upsides-- overall super meh
15) Young Link
16) Mario
17) DK
18) Link

The tier everyone wishes was better:
19) G&W
20) Mewtwo
21) Ness
22) Zelda

I am personally offended that anyone plays these characters:
23) Kirby
24) Roy
25) Pichu
26) Bowser

I think 9-14 is the most interesting area. I think Samus has serious viability; i'm surprised to hear that Plup is maining Sheik(?) now. Pretty saddening. I think Pika and yoshi are one man shows (Axe, aMSa), but they've shown that you need to take their respective characters seriously, posting better recent results than the other characters in this list. The recent influx of good Luigi's made me rank him higher than Doc and Ganon. I wanted to put Doc higher, but since Shroomed switched it seems (unfortunately) inaccurate in the current meta. Ganon has serious firepower but he's painfully slow that I ranked him last in the "don't sleep on this character" tier.

I also hate Roy and considered putting him dead last. His colors are pretty d0pe though. Let me know what you think!

 

[Spak]

Everyone who says Yoshi shouldn't be a lot higher because only AMSA is a notable player needs to remember something: The tier list is about the highest level of play, so anything except that highest level of play is irrelevant, meaning you should base Yoshi's placement on how well the best Yoshi player can do with him.

No, tier lists are about the character's potential. If everyone who played Marth was a scrub, he would stay where he is (based on his potential) instead of instantly joining Kirby just (because his top players are bad).

At the page 1 discussion: Marth better and I mean BETTER not be the best character in the game. Do you realize how lame it would be if the easiest character to learn in the game was also be the best character at the highest level? That would go against everything Melee stands for.

I agree that he is most definitely not the best and Marth is the 2nd easiest; Sheik is the easiest (that no-skill piece of chaingrabbing, Fair-It-'Till-It's-Dead garbage).
...
You can tell I'm a Falcon main and a Roy secondary by my opinions on Sheik.

In the right hands, these characters can place respectably-- occasionally reaching top8 at majors
9) Samus
10) Pika
11) Luigi
12) Yoshi
13) Doc
14) Ganon

Serious limitations and not too many upsides-- overall super meh
15) Young Link
16) Mario
17) DK
18) Link

The tier everyone wishes was better:
19) G&W
20) Mewtwo
21) Ness
22) Zelda

I am personally offended that anyone plays these characters:
23) Kirby
24) Roy
25) Pichu
26) Bowser

I think 9-14 is the most interesting area. I think Samus has serious viability; i'm surprised to hear that Plup is maining Sheik(?) now. Pretty saddening. I think Pika and yoshi are one man shows (Axe, aMSa), but they've shown that you need to take their respective characters seriously, posting better recent results than the other characters in this list. The recent influx of good Luigi's made me rank him higher than Doc and Ganon. I wanted to put Doc higher, but since Shroomed switched it seems (unfortunately) inaccurate in the current meta.

Just because people switch mains doesn't mean that the character is worse. Armada switched from Peach to Fox because he thought that Peach was limited, but I've seen very few tier lists that put Peach lower than she was previously. Also, even if you were making the tier list based off of the best players, Boss still has a great Doc when he plays Melee. Anyways, I agreed with everything up to your 8, so I'll make my own lost based on my opinions:

S (1-8):
1) Fox
2) Falco
3) Marth
4) Sheik
5) Jiggs
6) Peach
7) Falcon
8) ICs

A (9-14):
9) Pika
10) Samus
11) Doc
12) Ganon
13) Luigi
14) Yoshi

B (15-22):
15) Mario
16) Young Link
17) Link
18) DK
19) Roy
20) G&W
21) Mewtwo
22) Zelda

F (23-26):
23) Pichu
24) Ness
25) Bowser
26) Kirby

I also hate Roy and considered putting him dead last.

Why is everyone on the hating Roy bandwagon?

P.S. Sorry for personally offending you by playing Roy.

 

[kingPiano]

No, tier lists are about the character's potential. If everyone who played Marth was a scrub, he would stay where he is (based on his potential) instead of instantly joining Kirby just (because his top players are bad).


I agree that he is most definitely not the best and Marth is the 2nd easiest; Sheik is the easiest (that no-skill piece of chaingrabbing, Fair-It-'Till-It's-Dead garbage).
...
You can tell I'm a Falcon main and a Roy secondary by my opinions on Sheik.


Just because people switch mains doesn't mean that the character is worse. Armada switched from Peach to Fox because he thought that Peach was limited, but I've seen very few tier lists that put Peach lower than she was previously. Also, even if you were making the tier list based off of the best players, Boss still has a great Doc when he plays Melee. Anyways, I agreed with everything up to your 8, so I'll make my own lost based on my opinions:

S (1-8):
1) Fox
2) Falco
3) Marth
4) Sheik
5) Jiggs
6) Peach
7) Falcon
8) ICs

A (9-14):
9) Pika
10) Samus
11) Doc
12) Ganon
13) Luigi
14) Yoshi

B (15-22):
15) Mario
16) Young Link
17) Link
18) DK
19) Roy
20) G&W
21) Mewtwo
22) Zelda

F (23-26):
23) Pichu
24) Ness
25) Bowser
26) Kirby


Why is everyone on the hating Roy bandwagon?

P.S. Sorry for personally offending you by playing Roy.

People bash on Roy because they have no actual experience playing as him or against him. You ask most of the Top pros and semi-pros and they will tell you that Roy could never be last or even bottom tier based solely on the fact that he has huge disjointed hitboxes, insane grab range and a great SHFFL, DD, and WD (not to mention one of the few with a 100% invincible ledgestall and long Inv. ledge dash).

It's mostly only noobs and inexperienced people who will say silly things like "Roy is trash" or "Roy is garbage, last on tier list", yes his aerial game is nowhere near as good as Marth's but his Fair, Nair, Uair are still better than a lot of characters. They also fail to realize that he's ground based and all his tools there are usuable, high damage, mid-top tier moves. Roy's D-tilt alone is guaranteed combos on FFers (combos into almost anything) and Floaties (yes that's right D-tilt > Nairs/Uairs/etc) and it's fast at 20 frames total with high hitstun. His recovery is also still better than Falco/Fox/Ganon/Falcon, you will see a Roy make it back to the stage more often than those usually do and his edge-guarding ability is very good.

Honestly none of this is worth arguing about, the only thing that matters is viable and non-viable. Ranking most of them above or below each other can be impossible for some groups of characters and it's becoming silly to even listen to since most aren't even qualified to speak about these characters.

 

[spy_]

People bash on Roy because they have no actual experience playing as him or against him. You ask most of the Top pros and semi-pros and they will tell you that Roy could never be last or even bottom tier based solely on the fact that he has huge disjointed hitboxes, insane grab range and a great SHFFL, DD, and WD (not to mention one of the few with a 100% invincible ledgestall and long Inv. ledge dash).

It's mostly only noobs and inexperienced people who will say silly things like "Roy is trash" or "Roy is garbage, last on tier list", yes his aerial game is nowhere near as good as Marth's but his Fair, Nair, Uair are still better than a lot of characters. They also fail to realize that he's ground based and all his tools there are usuable, high damage, mid-top tier moves. Roy's D-tilt alone is guaranteed combos on FFers (combos into almost anything) and Floaties (yes that's right D-tilt > Nairs/Uairs/etc) and it's fast at 20 frames total with high hitstun. His recovery is also still better than Falco/Fox/Ganon/Falcon, you will see a Roy make it back to the stage more often than those usually do and his edge-guarding ability is very good.

Honestly none of this is worth arguing about, the only thing that matters is viable and non-viable. Ranking most of them above or below each other can be impossible for some groups of characters and it's becoming silly to even listen to since most aren't even qualified to speak about these characters.

I guess you're right. I mainly dislike Roy just because of how inferior he is to Marth, so that jades my perspective. I state in the first sentence of my post that i'm scrubby and was just posting what I thought to be the case. I'm more than willing to listen to arguments for/against any tier list-- mine included. I just think it's a fun activity that anyone can do (although some are obviously more qualified and worth listening to than others.)

 

[Comet7]

No, tier lists are about the character's potential. If everyone who played Marth was a scrub, he would stay where he is (based on his potential) instead of instantly joining Kirby just (because his top players are bad).

if a tier list was about a character's potential and marth had the most potential as a character then he would be the best since the players would be irrelevant.

 

[zero sum]

these don't mean anything but

fox > falco > marth > sheik > peach > puff > ics > falcon > yoshi > pika > samus > luigi > doc

rest barely matter imo but mario > ylink > ganon > dk then the other characters are totally irrelevant
top three, maybe top four can win nationals at this point

before 2015 i think with some luck anyone above and including falcon could have won a national while facing a top fox in tournament but now i think it's mostly top 4 with peach and puff being big gray areas. i think they can still win nationals but not if they get one of the top 3 foxes (i.e. mango, armada, leffen) playing on point and avoiding that seems super unlikely.

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

This is my personal tier list from my experience. Keep in mind I'm from Australia so this is based off the PAL version of the game.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

Notes.
1). I strongly believe that Falcon has the potential to at least move up to A tier, but as of right now, there are no placings to support this so unfortunately I have to leave him at the top of B.
2). I've put Pichu above Ness on the tier list, but I dont really know enough about Ness to justify this, so for now consider them equal. I am positive however that Pichu should be above Bowser and Kirby. Pichu is underrated af.
3). Don't cry about Sheik. Remember this is PAL.
4). Roy is getting an unjustified amount of hate. He is our boy. He is pretty bad though.

 

[Spak]

if a tier list was about a character's potential and marth had the most potential as a character then he would be the best since the players would be irrelevant.

But Marth doesn't have the most potential, so Fox is first on the tier list.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

People bash on Roy because they have no actual experience playing as him or against him. You ask most of the Top pros and semi-pros and they will tell you that Roy could never be last or even bottom tier based solely on the fact that he has huge disjointed hitboxes, insane grab range and a great SHFFL, DD, and WD (not to mention one of the few with a 100% invincible ledgestall and long Inv. ledge dash).

It's mostly only noobs and inexperienced people who will say silly things like "Roy is trash" or "Roy is garbage, last on tier list", yes his aerial game is nowhere near as good as Marth's but his Fair, Nair, Uair are still better than a lot of characters. They also fail to realize that he's ground based and all his tools there are usuable, high damage, mid-top tier moves. Roy's D-tilt alone is guaranteed combos on FFers (combos into almost anything) and Floaties (yes that's right D-tilt > Nairs/Uairs/etc) and it's fast at 20 frames total with high hitstun. His recovery is also still better than Falco/Fox/Ganon/Falcon, you will see a Roy make it back to the stage more often than those usually do and his edge-guarding ability is very good.

lol Roy's fair is actually a wet noodle. Also, its not that Roy's d-tilt is good, but he has like 2 true combos and they both start with d-tilt. Roy's recovery is exponentially worse than Fox's, don't know what you were smoking. And at least on Dreamland Falcon and Ganon can extend their recoveries with down-b. Also, why the **** do you think you're qualified to talk about Roy but no one else is, especially seeing that almost everything you say is wrong. Is Roy at the bottom? No. Is he close to it? Yes. You claim Roy has high damage, usuable tools when only f-smash and flare blade (and sweetspotted blazer on floaties lol) are even reasonably strong and practical. Of his aerials, only nair can even do more than 10% and that is when sweetspotted. Roy also gets comboed to hell and back. Roy's sourspots are also all pitifully weak. So what if he has long disjoints if most of them are wasted space. Roy's few options compared to almost every character above him make him awfully predictable. And btw, I have plenty of experience against Roy, I've been playing my cousins all the time for years and, while not super competitive, are pretty good and play Roy from time to time.

 

[kingPiano]

lol Roy's fair is actually a wet noodle. Also, its not that Roy's d-tilt is good, but he has like 2 true combos and they both start with d-tilt. Roy's recovery is exponentially worse than Fox's, don't know what you were smoking. And at least on Dreamland Falcon and Ganon can extend their recoveries with down-b. Also, why the **** do you think you're qualified to talk about Roy but no one else is, especially seeing that almost everything you say is wrong. Is Roy at the bottom? No. Is he close to it? Yes. You claim Roy has high damage, usuable tools when only f-smash and flare blade (and sweetspotted blazer on floaties lol) are even reasonably strong and practical. Of his aerials, only nair can even do more than 10% and that is when sweetspotted. Roy also gets comboed to hell and back. Roy's sourspots are also all pitifully weak. So what if he has long disjoints if most of them are wasted space. Roy's few options compared to almost every character above him make him awfully predictable. And btw, I have plenty of experience against Roy, I've been playing my cousins all the time for years and, while not super competitive, are pretty good and play Roy from time to time.

I like how you are getting angry and trying to argue with me, but you completely agree with me that he's not last or even in the bottom tier (that's what I was addressing).

And you seem like such a troll, that's why you had your idiotic thread closed by a mod. Some kids on these forums I swear...drama drama and noob trolling galore.

Roy's SHFFL Fair/Uair into F-smash works just fine on most all character's (perhaps your "cousins" don't know what a SHFFL is?) and his recovery is harder to guard then Fox's since it comes from so low and has a much larger disjointed hit-boxes preceding it. Once Fox's Up-B is started a good player can pretty much gimp the crap out of him (Has Illusion but this is offset by his terrible fall speed which is 31% higher than Roy plus it's normal 20 frame land lag and terrible horizontal distance on his double jump). A Roy and Fox of the same skill level you will see them able to come back to the stage the same amount, I'd say the Roy would have a higher rate of recovery (he also has a 100% invicible ledgestall as I've already said and his Ledge dash is better).

Roy's D-smash and Up smash are high damage and come out fast so they are usuable. DED is great, U-air/U-tilt juggling, do I have to mention his superb DD, WD, and grab range again...so on. His sweet spot isn't actually that bad either, on the F-smash, DED finishers, and F-tilt they're pretty generous and the Flare Blade sweetspots anywhere on the blade. Nair also will sweetspot most of the time when the first his lands then the second (first hit draws them in and 95% of the time you are moving forward in the air so the sweetspot on the 2nd is pretty much guaranteed). Roy is not good but he's obviously not bottom of the list, most vets will undoubtedly agree with that.

 

[JeoProZ]

My Personal Tier List:

SS: (Expected to win a major)

Fox
Falco (practically even with Fox)
Marth
Sheik
Jigglypuff

S: (Can win a major in the right hands, expected to at least reach top 8)

Peach
Ice Climbers (ahead of Cpt. Falcon because of wobbling)
Captain Falcon

A: (Still viable, but not expected to get past top 8 at a major)

Pikachu
Samus
Yoshi
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Luigi
Mario

B: (Unviable)

Young Link
Link
Donkey Kong
Mewtwo
Mr. Game and Watch
Roy

F: (Practically useless in tournaments)

Zelda
Pichu
Kirby
Ness
Bowser

Thoughts?

 

[EddyBearr]

On-Topic:
. My Tier List:

(A+) Top Tier: These characters define the meta and should win most majors.
>

(A) High Tier: These characters don't define the meta, but are definitely part of it and can win a major.
> > >

(A-) Borderline Tier: These characters are part of the meta, but something stops them from winning majors. Can easily top 8.
>

(B) Viable Tier: These characters are rogue; they can compete in the meta but it's very unlikely they'd get top 8 at a major.
> >

(C) Niche Tier: These characters are rogue; they usually can not compete in the meta without specific matchups or skillsets.
> > > >

(D) Low Tier: These characters are bad, but have seen a bit of success, especially on local scales, from many players.
> >

(F) Bottom Tier: These characters are bad and haven't seen much success. They should not even be winning on the local level.
> > > > > >

.

Off-Topic:

Roy's SHFFL Fair/Uair into F-smash works just fine on most all character's (perhaps your "cousins" don't know what a SHFFL is?)

In order for Roy to combo a perfect fair into an f-smash, the opponent needs to be in something like 20 or 21 frames of hitstun (10 frames fair l-cancel lag, useful f-smash hitbox on frame 13 since it starts higher up, opponent can powershield or spot-dodge.)

Roy's sweetspot, completely fresh, forward air has 46.52 KB at 0% on a neutral state/generic opponent, and 95.52 with the same conditions on a 100% opponent (based on Kadano's knockback spreadsheet). With the calculation of 0.4(knockback) to get hitstun, this means Roy puts his opponents into 18/19 frames of hitstun at 0% with 38 frames of hitstun at 100%.

This means it's impossible to combo fair into f-smash at lower percents, and possible at higher percents if the opponent does absolutely nothing. I don't know the exact data on crouch-canceling, but it lowers knockback by somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 (let's say 3/7 as a middle ground for the purposes of this post).

If the opponent crouch cancels, the fair will do 21/22 frames of hitstun on a crouch-canceling opponent at 100%, which will -maybe- true combo into an f-smash if you're frame perfect and perfectly unstaled. However, the opponent always has the option to DI and/or SDI the fair away, not crouch cancel and get knocked further back alongside DI/SDI, or simply shield the fair, in which case, Roy either wet-noodles the opponent or gets punished by SHFFLing on shield.

Long story short, no, fair into f-smash does not work on pretty much any character in pretty much any practical application. Uair ends up being worse for combos at lower percents while comparable at higher percents in terms of frame windows while also having a way worse hitbox and better trajectory. Uair should not work either.

 

[kingPiano]

On-Topic:


In order for Roy to combo a perfect fair into an f-smash, the opponent needs to be in something like 20 or 21 frames of hitstun (10 frames fair l-cancel lag, useful f-smash hitbox on frame 13 since it starts higher up, opponent can powershield or spot-dodge.)

Roy's sweetspot, completely fresh, forward air has 46.52 KB at 0% on a neutral state/generic opponent, and 95.52 with the same conditions on a 100% opponent (based on Kadano's knockback spreadsheet). With the calculation of 0.4(knockback) to get hitstun, this means Roy puts his opponents into 18/19 frames of hitstun at 0% with 38 frames of hitstun at 100%.

This means it's impossible to combo fair into f-smash at lower percents, and possible at higher percents if the opponent does absolutely nothing. I don't know the exact data on crouch-canceling, but it lowers knockback by somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 (let's say 3/7 as a middle ground for the purposes of this post).

If the opponent crouch cancels, the fair will do 21/22 frames of hitstun on a crouch-canceling opponent at 100%, which will -maybe- true combo into an f-smash if you're frame perfect and perfectly unstaled. However, the opponent always has the option to DI and/or SDI the fair away, not crouch cancel and get knocked further back alongside DI/SDI, or simply shield the fair, in which case, Roy either wet-noodles the opponent or gets punished by SHFFLing on shield.

Long story short, no, fair into f-smash does not work on pretty much any character in pretty much any practical application. Uair ends up being worse for combos at lower percents while comparable at higher percents in terms of frame windows while also having a way worse hitbox and better trajectory. Uair should not work either.

How dense can you be?...You only attempt the F-air/U-air > Fsmash when they are in kill percent or mid high percents (it works even on a HEAVY character like DK starting as early as 65% with no CC). So it's pretty much guaranteed on almost all characters above 70% (even floaties); that's the beauty of Roy's bad Aerials, at KO percents they can chain into finishers still. So, your rant was basically pointless and you just proved exactly what I said. It's especially useful for platform KOs - D-tilt > pops them up to platform > F-air/U-air > Fsmash. Like a lot of moves and combos it can be affected by CC/SDI but reaction time and CCing is never perfect (they aren't always holding down and c-sticking), at higher percents it gets more guaranteed. And I don't care if you are just another lab-rat/video-watcher, just stop and answer the question: How much actual experience do you have with Roy? If you have none or very little experience....then why talk crap on the character or even argue about his practical combos and strategies?

At low percents anyone who has actually played Roy at a competitive level will know that you go for D-tilt > F-smash or D-tilt > Nairs (for Floaties) or into grab combos and tech chases. You don't go for SHFFL Aerials > F-Smashes until higher percents.

 

[EddyBearr]

You don't go for SHFFL Aerials > F-Smashes until higher percents.

The thing is, a SHFFL fair or uair into F-Smash still should not work consistently against anyone expecting it who has good enough DI and spacing at higher percents either. By the time the fair or uair has enough knockback to break most characters' crouch cancels, they then should have the option to not crouch cancel and instead DI and SDI appropriately.

 

[kingPiano]

The thing is, a SHFFL fair or uair into F-Smash still should not work consistently against anyone expecting it who has good enough DI and spacing at higher percents either. By the time the fair or uair has enough knockback to break most characters' crouch cancels, they then should have the option to not crouch cancel and instead DI and SDI appropriately.

By that logic then no Fox/Falco player would NEVER EVER be able to land the 2nd hit of Upair, or Peach would never land more than 1 hit of D-smash since they can just SDI out of it every single time like a robot. And no one should ever get hit by Falcon's gentlemen and no one should ever miss a meteor cancel or ledge tech.

EddyBearr TAS logic: Where nothing is possible unless it's in the favor of your ignorant bias and every opponent has perfect SDI/CC and power shields everything.

 

[EddyBearr]

By that logic then no Fox/Falco player would NEVER EVER be able to land the 2nd hit of Upair since they can just SDI out of it every single time like a robot. And no one should ever get hit by all three jabs of Falcon's gentlemen. Or no one should ever miss a meteor cancel or ledge tech.

EddyBearr TAS logic: Where nothing is possible unless it's in the favor of your ignorant bias and every opponent has perfect SDI/CC and power shields everything.

Not quite, but okay.

If you want to make me a believer in high percent aerial -> Fsmash with opponent having proper DI and spacing, then produce it in a gif that shows things like hitstun. If you can show it to be a true combo with a few frames of leniency (so you don't have to be frame perfect) then that settles it.

 

[kingPiano]

Not quite, but okay.

If you want to make me a believer in high percent aerial -> Fsmash with opponent having proper DI and spacing, then produce it in a gif that shows things like hitstun. If you can show it to be a true combo with a few frames of leniency (so you don't have to be frame perfect) then that settles it.

https://youtu.be/WclOwdwxYcI?t=4m18s

Here's one example, a common combo on battlefield even easier to land on FFers and in many variations (incl. only one aerial as I've been talking about on flat). This is Vist; the Luigi main, doesn't even really play Roy. And that's Chudat, not sure if you need a history lesson but he pretty much was the first Young Link ever way back in the day...so go actually watch some good Roys and you will see everything I've talked about and more.

SHFFL aerial > Fsmash is literally one of the staples of any Roy player (I've seen M2K, Sethlon, Pyro, Neo, Vectorman, and Ken all use it) just like Multiple D-tilts > F-smash & D-throw > Fsmash/D-smash & U-throw > F/U Smash & CG > Smash can 0-death most top tier FFers with DI following and tech chasing. The fact that you don't know this and are trying to argue it just shows how little experience and knowledge you have about Roy. Run the imaginary scenarios in your head and run the numbers incorrectly on a spreadsheet all you want. I have little to no motivation to make you "believe" since it's a waste of time and you seem quite biased.

 

[BnW Lock]

lol fox is the best of the best so what does it even matter

 

[KillerGum]

I guess I'll throw mine up here:
(Note: I am basing this off of top level play. Certain characters can move up or down depending on level of play Ex: Ganon)

S: Most able to win major tournaments
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik

A: Viable to win major tournaments
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Ice Climbers
8. Captain Falcon

B: Viable to get top 8 at major tournaments
9. Samus
10. Doctor Mario
11. Pikachu
12. Luigi
13. Yoshi
14. Mario

C: Top tiers wreck them so they suck but they're still kinda okay
15. Young Link
16. Ganondorf

D: Bad, shouldn't get far in tournament
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Game & Watch
20. Mewtwo

F: Stinky Garbage
21. Roy
22. Pichu
23. Ness
24. Zelda
25: Kirby
26. Bowser

(Edit: Accidentally put Yoshi over Luigi)

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

I like how you are getting angry and trying to argue with me, but you completely agree with me that he's not last or even in the bottom tier (that's what I was addressing).

And you seem like such a troll, that's why you had your idiotic thread closed by a mod. Some kids on these forums I swear...drama drama and noob trolling galore.

Roy's SHFFL Fair/Uair into F-smash works just fine on most all character's (perhaps your "cousins" don't know what a SHFFL is?) and his recovery is harder to guard then Fox's since it comes from so low and has a much larger disjointed hit-boxes preceding it. Once Fox's Up-B is started a good player can pretty much gimp the crap out of him (Has Illusion but this is offset by his terrible fall speed which is 31% higher than Roy plus it's normal 20 frame land lag and terrible horizontal distance on his double jump). A Roy and Fox of the same skill level you will see them able to come back to the stage the same amount, I'd say the Roy would have a higher rate of recovery (he also has a 100% invicible ledgestall as I've already said and his Ledge dash is better).

Roy's D-smash and Up smash are high damage and come out fast so they are usuable. DED is great, U-air/U-tilt juggling, do I have to mention his superb DD, WD, and grab range again...so on. His sweet spot isn't actually that bad either, on the F-smash, DED finishers, and F-tilt they're pretty generous and the Flare Blade sweetspots anywhere on the blade. Nair also will sweetspot most of the time when the first his lands then the second (first hit draws them in and 95% of the time you are moving forward in the air so the sweetspot on the 2nd is pretty much guaranteed). Roy is not good but he's obviously not bottom of the list, most vets will undoubtedly agree with that.

You contradict yourself far more than you think I do. "Roy is not good" and "all his tools [on ground] are usable, high-damage, mid-top tier moves" are clearly contradictory because any character that is loaded with top-tier caliber moves is far from not good. So what if up-smash comes out fast, it has immense ending lag and limited horizontal range (love the completely useless tipper spike tho). So what if Roy has a longer ledge dash than Fox? What can he do immediately out of a ledge dash for easy KOs? Fox gets soooo many kills from ledge dash upsmash. Roy also has one of those strange oddities where his waveland is significantly better on a list of distances than his actually average waveDASH, so Roy really doesn't have the amazing WD you speak of. Roy does have a great grab range and chaingrabs. The chaingrabs are nothing special: almost everyone can do that to fastfallers. The grab range is great. The SHFFL is pretty fast, wish he had more powerful aerials, but it is good nonetheless. Neither of these are enough to completely save Roy from being trash. And the DD, Pichu's is better. Now Pichu's is amazing, but that just strengthens my previous point. And also you haven't used any numerical or objective analyses and comparisons, making you the wrong person to say everyone who bashes on Roy is an inexperienced noob while you yourself have no authority to say Roy is good. You insult anyone who actually proves you wrong with statistics and then throw out a very innacurate statistic to prove how "dense" someone is. You are the immature troll, not me. (For the record, every argument I've made that uses mathematical comparisons is based on frame data)

 

[kingPiano]

You contradict yourself far more than you think I do. "Roy is not good" and "all his tools [on ground] are usable, high-damage, mid-top tier moves" are clearly contradictory because any character that is loaded with top-tier caliber moves is far from not good. So what if up-smash comes out fast, it has immense ending lag and limited horizontal range (love the completely useless tipper spike tho). So what if Roy has a longer ledge dash than Fox? What can he do immediately out of a ledge dash for easy KOs? Fox gets soooo many kills from ledge dash upsmash. Roy also has one of those strange oddities where his waveland is significantly better on a list of distances than his actually average waveDASH, so Roy really doesn't have the amazing WD you speak of. Roy does have a great grab range and chaingrabs. The chaingrabs are nothing special: almost everyone can do that to fastfallers. The grab range is great. The SHFFL is pretty fast, wish he had more powerful aerials, but it is good nonetheless. Neither of these are enough to completely save Roy from being trash. And the DD, Pichu's is better. Now Pichu's is amazing, but that just strengthens my previous point. And also you haven't used any numerical or objective analyses and comparisons, making you the wrong person to say everyone who bashes on Roy is an inexperienced noob while you yourself have no authority to say Roy is good. You insult anyone who actually proves you wrong with statistics and then throw out a very innacurate statistic to prove how "dense" someone is. You are the immature troll, not me. (For the record, every argument I've made that uses mathematical comparisons is based on frame data)

- Pichu better DD than Roy? What in the ever loving...no, just no. It's clear you don't understand what makes a DD good.
- Roy's Ledge Dash is longer and has longer invincibility per distance (seems like you didn't even know about invincibility, yikes)
- His Wave-dash is great it's 6th longest out of 26 (right behind Marth), what drugs are you smoking?
- Immense ending lag on U-smash? you mean average 46 frame length? Fox's is 42 frames total and it actually has more end lag than Roy's does from the time it's hit-boxes stop.

You know what...there is so much wrong in your post I'm not even going to bother. Holy Moly this site, sometimes it's like 70% the people don't even play Melee or have just started playing. I have numerical data, it's even proven in Eddy's post the hitstun and in like 100s of matches recorded showing Roy using SHFFL aerials > F-Smash as finishers (incl. the one I posted) I actually play these characters in tourneys instead of just crunching numbers incorrectly and making up facts (Roy is my secondary).

I don't contradict myself either a character can be "not good" but still have some high-mid tier moves and abilities. This is quite a common pattern in low-mid tiers...guess you really have no clue what you're talking about after all :/

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

- Pichu better DD than Roy? What in the ever loving...no, just no. It's clear you don't understand what makes a DD good.
- Roy's Ledge Dash is longer and has longer invincibility per distance (seems like you didn't even know about invincibility, yikes)
- His Wave-dash is great it's 6th longest out of 26 (right behind Marth), what drugs are you smoking?
- Immense ending lag on U-smash? you mean average 46 frame length? Fox's is 42 frames total and it actually has more end lag than Roy's does from the time it's hit-boxes stop.

You know what...there is so much wrong in your post I'm not even going to bother. Holy Moly this site, sometimes it's like 70% the people don't even play Melee or have just started playing. I have numerical data, it's even proven in Eddy's post the hitstun and in like 100s of matches recorded showing Roy using SHFFL aerials > F-Smash as finishers (incl. the one I posted) I actually play these characters in tourneys instead of just crunching numbers incorrectly and making up facts (Roy is my secondary).

I don't contradict myself either a character can be "not good" but still have some high-mid tier moves and abilities. This is quite a common pattern in low-mid tiers...guess you really have no clue what you're talking about after all :/

http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/#post-18783771 recheck data Roy's 10th for WDs
lol thinking i didn't know ledge dash was invincible
someone is cynical and lives to insult people

 

[kingPiano]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/#post-18783771 recheck data Roy's 10th for WDs
lol thinking i didn't know ledge dash was invincible
someone is cynical and lives to insult people

Once again incorrect, you misinterpret the data.

Roy still has the 6th longest pretty much tied with Yoshi and under Marth, the 10th spot is actually 7th since supposedly a "perfect computer TAS max angle wave-dash" has 4 people tied for 6th (which are only 0.29 longer trollolol). In practical use and testing you will find that Roy has a Wavedash that actually seems longer than Yoshi's, and the minute differences are lost. It's substantially longer than Pichu's very tiny and near unusable WD. Go and actually test this yourself it's pretty easy, but you will need a copy of Melee first and something to play it on. Looking at data and not actually playing the game really isn't a good way to discuss practical usage and gameplay mechanics.

For instance you were even wrong just looking at the data about DD, Roy's is categorically better even on paper. But a DD is rated on many factors you can't just tell by looking at numbers such as: grab range out of it, WD distance out of it, Fox-trot, Pivot Area (Roy's is substantially wider since his frame is much larger), other attack and defense options out of it, and the amount of effective space the character can cover (Roy's body extends out about 2-3 times longer horizontally). Pichu only has a little bit faster dash speed, but everything else starting with the DD distance is inferior to Roy's.

And it's not cynicism, when people try and attack the facts I present and then just start making stuff up or trashing on a character without having any real experience with them I'm going to call them out on their naivety and ignorance. Otherwise this site is useless and you just get a bunch of trolls and BS'ers.

 

[Comet7]

for those whom it concerns pichu's ledge dash gives 17 frames of invincibility while roy's (if it's the same as marth) has either 3 or 4. neither are particularly good though.

dismo don't worry about him.

spak I was just using your logic. I never stated that Marth is the best; I firmly believe that is Fox.

 

[kingPiano]

for those whom it concerns pichu's ledge dash gives 17 frames of invincibility while roy's (if it's the same as marth) has either 3 or 4. neither are particularly good though.

dismo don't worry about him.

spak I was just using your logic. I never stated that Marth is the best; I firmly believe that is Fox.

Says the guy that to puts Pichu above Roy and Ness, then argued about Ness's match-ups, then admitted to not having any clue about the character...yea par for the course, you two are peas in a pod

Roy has a 100% invincible Ledgestall because of his FF speed and small double jump this already makes his ledge game safer than even Marth's and definitely Pichu's.

Also not that you even care (since you don't seem to care about practical use), but Pichu's puny wavedash distance makes his ledge dash pretty much insignificant. By the time you land and can act, the invincibility is over and you just get the lag of the WD ending and you've barely covered any distance. That's why you don't see it used at all like you do with a character who actually have good ledge-dashes like Fox/Sheik.

TAS frame perfect ledge dash for Pichu is only 15 frames of invincibility, but you will never achieve that consistently just like people can't really hax dash consistently. There are much wiser options for him such as invincible nair and fair (4% self DAMAGE) onto stage.