personal qeustion: How come people don't approve spacing/footsies in Smash bros?

[Zork]

Zork: Your sarcasm doesn't address what I said at all. Talk to me like an intelligent human being or don't respond to me. simple stuff. Sarcasm doesn't push discussion forward. It just makes you look pompous.

Also a frame trap and a read....does not compute. They are on completely opposite sides of the spectrum.

Don't post blatantly false information if you want me to respond seriously. I just gave you examples of combos in Brawl that work on everyone and you respond with "oh well they only work on some characters or are chaingrabs".

You implied there was no followup potential and everything resets back to neutral. Another point I've already refuted even ignoring true combos by mentioning the importance of stage control, edge guarding and potential followups with reads, tech chases (read and reactionary) and frame traps.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tell me where I said the game had no follow-up potential. I said the game resets back to neutral often. That was it. ZSS does have char specific stuff as does Diddy. ZSS has infinites and both have set-ups that only work vs certain chars.

Also tell me where I didn't acknowledge the other aspects of control. Actually you know what? Read this..then respond to me, since you seem to THINK, I'm clueless.

http://smashboards.com/threads/brickwalls-and-traps-the-keys-to-victory.183816/

 

[ChikoLad]

@OP: I wasn't aware people found footsies boring in Smash. I myself don't.

As a Rosalina and a Sonic main, footsies are one of the most essential and intense parts of their meta game, IMO, and I love both watching and performing it.

 

[Zork]

Then why are you arguing if you aren't disagreeing with what I said? You gave one outlier example of the punish game in Brawl being too polariazing (Ice Climbers) for one side. But if you are aware of all the much more interesting punish options the game has to offer, what's the issue? We both agree Ice Climbers are overpowered in Brawl (I'd actually say they are best in the game on FD) so that's clearly not it.

Imagine if someone pointed out Sheik mirrors in Melee where they can both CG each other and said it proved the punish game in Melee was polarizing, stupid and boring. It'd be an equally unfair assessment.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Because at the highest level that polarization is what killed the game.

There is the game as the whole then the game played in tournaments. The latter became stale and boring due to some chars just being WAY better at punishing and thats a huge part of the Brawl metagame because alot of chars suck at approaching.

We on the same page?

 

[Zork]

Except plenty of characters can beat Ice Climbers. Snake, Diddy Kong, MK, Rob, Peach all have pretty good matchups vs them to name a few. And not every Ice Climbers matchup was a camp fest, it really depends on who's playing. You talk about the highest level, well look at 9b arguably the best Icys player and his matches vs the likes of Nairo and ADHD. And then come back and say you honestly find nothing he or his opponent's do in the matchup interesting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sure skill is always a factor and how good the chars are, but for a majority of the cast beating ice climbers is simply not a reality or not realistically possible to do with consistency.

Watch a stream vs strong IC's vs any character...excitement is not the word viewers will use. It's not IC's fault though. It's the engine's fault as well as other chars being too weak to deal with it.

And as I said, it's not just IC's that hurt the metagame. It's the skewed risk vs reward in general. Also camping and being defensive are not one and the same.

Anyway I can tell you like Brawl. That's fine. But what I'm saying holds weight. The game has it's problems. This is one of them.

 

[Zork]

I like all Smash games. And fighting games in general.

The majority of the cast cannot beat most top tiers, not just Icys. This holds true for all Smash games. So no, this is not a problem exclusive to Brawl. By your logic every Smash game prior to Brawl also sucks.

Once again, watch matches involving the best Ice Climbers, 9b at SKTAR3 (most recent Brawl major). The matches are much more aggressive than you'd think. Just because you watched a slow match once on stream doesn't mean they are all like that especially at the highest level.

Smash in general is horribly balanced historically. It's a problem yes, but not just with Brawl.

 

[RanserSSF4]

@OP: I wasn't aware people found footsies boring in Smash. I myself don't.

As a Rosalina and a Sonic main, footsies are one of the most essential and intense parts of their meta game, IMO, and I love both watching and performing it.

I've seen lots say that, which is fine if they don't like it at all, but I agree with your comment.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As I said it wouldnt be a problem if EVERYONE had huge returns. risk vs reward is one of the easier things to balance imo and an infinite CG is NOT hard to spot.

Sorry its just frustrating how little Nintendo cared to test Brawl and well..all their games really.

 

[Zork]

As I said it wouldnt be a problem if EVERYONE had huge returns. risk vs reward is one of the easier things to balance imo and an infinite CG is NOT hard to spot.

Sorry its just frustrating how little Nintendo cared to test Brawl and well..all their games really.

I doubt Nintendo knew about any infinites due to said lack of testing but yes, even if they did they probably wouldn't have cared enough to take them out.

At any rate a Peach infinite that works on everyone has been discovered in Smash 4 already. I wonder if it will be Ice Climbers all over again. Not that relevant for the first few years but once people start becoming very consistent at it, it starts to over centralize the metagame.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How does it start? If its from a grab then im scared. If its out of hit im not worried.

 

[Shaya]

Seeing as Ice Climbers are being brought up a little bit, as a Brawl lover, I've dealt with "all the ****" and still continued to love and enjoy the game, but optimal Ice Climbers came along (pioneered by NAKAT) and for me, and many others, it killed the game. Ice Climbers' natural counter play was gutted in Brawl from Melee, with so many things given to them to make them more consistent, it resulted in a completely binary strategy from them that no opposing character could do anything about.

In short, dash forward with Ice Climbers
either: Dash grab, which has a massive upwards above their head disjoint (for no reason at all), allowing them to grab most character's aerials above their heads.
back roll. Reset the situation

You could not afford to attempt to read the back roll for the punish although I do try, if i'm 100% that's what's going to happen, but if I guess wrong I get grabbed and die, so for most players, they ... do not take that opportunity, because it won't work out for them unless they can guarantee hitting both climbers.

The game mechanics made this binary situation infallible. Natural desynching ensured that there was no way to hit both ICs at the same time in the dash forward, and if you hit Nana without hitting Popo while Popo back rolls, you're actually just set yourself up for getting dash grabbed guaranteed due to hit lag/etc. how dumb is this? Extremely dumb. This binary situation actually ends up being a 90:10 advantage in ICs favour in both scenarios, against every character in the cast.

This wouldn't be too bad except that Popo can solo chain grab most of the cast, which is how their binary game plan turns into more like 99:1 unless you're personally at a high enough percent which popo cannot solo chain grab you (for most characters, this was like 0-80% being in this danger zone, lol). Popo will be able to stall long enough for nana to come along to finish off the 0-death.

Everything in Brawl turned ICs into uncounterable monsters.

I know this doesn't have much to do with footsies, as much as them really denying every character in the cast a neutral game/ability to play footsies. But yeah, if it wasn't for ICs I'd still love playing Brawl and would've been keen for the game's future even post-new game. I don't see any reason to go back now though, no matter how much depth that game actually had even with most character's dumb free jank, none of it compared to ICs. They solely are responsible for killing Brawl for the rest of those who continued to enjoy the game during the entirety of it's rise/decline.

 

[Cosmo!]

At any rate a Peach infinite that works on everyone has been discovered in Smash 4 already. I wonder if it will be Ice Climbers all over again. Not that relevant for the first few years but once people start becoming very consistent at it, it starts to over centralize the metagame.

I'm assuming you're referring to this, which isn't an infinite, nor does it work on the entire cast, nor is it trivial to set up. So I doubt it will lead to Brawl IC levels of metagame over-centralization.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I doubt Nintendo knew about any infinites due to said lack of testing but yes, even if they did they probably wouldn't have cared enough to take them out.

At any rate a Peach infinite that works on everyone has been discovered in Smash 4 already. I wonder if it will be Ice Climbers all over again. Not that relevant for the first few years but once people start becoming very consistent at it, it starts to over centralize the metagame.

It's extremely situation and she can't force it without a large mistake and large preplaning.

It's also easier to screw up than Diddy's infinite in Brawl. It's not as easy as it sounds to make it start.