People think GnW is bad...?

[Bedoop]

So according to recent quote-unquote "Tier Lists" and the natural opinions of some people, Mr. Game & Watch is the Second-Worst Character in the game, with the Mii Swordfighter being the only one below him.
I honestly think this is a bit of BS-on-a-Stick, because GnW, in my opinion, is NOWHERE near the bottom.
And if Mii Fighters are (somehow) banned in tourneys (not sure why they would, though) then Game & Watch would be the flat-out (....that was a bad pun) worst character in the game.
Opinions?
...Please no Flame Wars.

 

[X3I]

Nothing more than bull****.
He is in the top half, with no doubts.

 

[L9999]

where did you found this tier list?

 

[Bedoop]

Where did you find this Tier List?

The Tier List is a Japanese Tier List for 1.0.4, you should be able to find that simply by searching around the Competitive Discussion Sub-Forum (shouldn't be that hard to find) and the "Natural Opinions of People" has been found at the "SWF Community Tier List Poll" Thread over in the Wii U General Discussion Sub-Forum (should be really easy to find).

 

[VDZ]

I agree with that assessment. While most of the forum is at least optimistic he isn't all the way at the bottom, most posters here are pessimistic about Game & Watch's competitive capabilities. X3I is the big exception to this, he somehow seems confident about Game & Watch being a good character.

Read the last couple pages of the stickied "Mr. Game & Watch" thread for details.

 

[X3I]

Let's say I just don't understand why people see only the nerfs, while:
- Chief got buffed and is now a great spacing tool
- Ftilt got buffed and is now an amazing tool that outpriorities everything
- Up Smash's change (invincibility) make this move insanely good, even though range and power got lowered
- The D-Throw allows nice setup, especially bucket/judgement ones (being able to steal a stock with a 9 is stupid)
- His edgeguard game is godlike, probably the best in the game
- His aerial game is nerfed but still among the best too
- He can still recover from everywhere

Though :
- He is light and doesn't have the Bucket Cancel anymore
- Can sometimes struggle to finish a stock because he needs to land a smash or to edgeguard well
- High rewards, but high risks (which is maybe, what describe his style the best in this game)...
- ...and therefore, is one of the most difficult character to play.

Except D-Tilt, all nerfed moves are still good, and the buffed moves are now reaaally useful.
The more I play with strong players and the more I improve my game, the more I think he actually got buffed from Brawl.

 

[L9999]

Though :
- He is light and doesn't have the Bucket Cancel anymore
- Can sometimes struggle to finish a stock because he needs to land a smash or to edgeguard well
- High rewards, but high risks (which is maybe, what describe his style the best in this game)...
- ...and therefore, is one of the most difficult character to play.

Except D-Tilt, all nerfed moves are still good, and the buffed moves are now reaaally useful.
The more I play with strong players and the more I improve my game, the more I think he actually got buffed from Brawl.

The high risk you mentioned is why many people say GnW sucks. All of his moves are a little laggy and get easily punished if you whiff them. Why did they have to nerf Down Tilt? I had so much fun using it to gimp in Brawl. Don't forget they nerfed D-air. Now you cannot Slow fall it.

 

[VDZ]

And the 'high reward' he mentions simply doesn't exist. G&W's damage and knockback have both been greatly reduced from Brawl.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Yeah he's bad, but not useless. He has strong edgeguarding.

Too bad everybody in this game can recover though.

Who cares just play, if you wanna prove people wrong/struggle than use GW

But anybody who thinks he's actually good is wrong, the character is obviously a weak character. Not being able to KO reliably in a game where everyone has aura and you're one of the lightest characters in the game is a really bad property to have.

 

[Deleted member]

And the 'high reward' he mentions simply doesn't exist. G&W's damage and knockback have both been greatly reduced from Brawl.

Not to mention that huge 'stick' hitbox he has on his F-smash now that can't kill for crap. Seriously, what were they thinking when they added that? Having strong kill options is what made him (semi) good in Brawl, and they took most of them away. For being the 2nd lightest in the game, you'd think that he'd at least have strong attacks to make up for it.

And don't even get me started on his aerials...

 

[L9999]

Not to mention that huge 'stick' hitbox he has on his F-smash now that can't kill for crap. Seriously, what were they thinking when they added that? Having strong kill options is what made him (semi) good in Brawl, and they took most of them away. For being the 2nd lightest in the game, you'd think that he'd at least have strong attacks to make up for it.

And don't even get me started on his aerials...

Yeah, his aerials are all laggy as hell and can't kill unless you are really far away from the stage. And having no good kill options really sucks in a game where almost all of the characters have good kill options. ( , just to name a few.)

He has strong edgeguarding.

Too bad everybody in this game can recover though.

So do

Not everyone

 

[X3I]

And the 'high reward' he mentions simply doesn't exist. G&W's damage and knockback have both been greatly reduced from Brawl.

You can still kill below 100% and you build damage quickly. +USmash, Bucket, or even Judge, risky edgeguard...
It exists.

I don't even understand why you say his aerials are laggy, because they are not really.
Even the Bair, fast-falled with the OTG hit, it's actually safe in guard.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Bucket doesn't count. Seriously. If your opponents fill your bucket, they are not playing you wisely. Go to one tournament and see how often you get a chance to bucket projectiles, if they're even using a character that allows it. Especially when you consider talk of 2 stock prevailing, there is no way you're filling it.

Judge is good in certain scenarios, all still involve luck, but none of these scenarios fall under "killing move." The move is literally designed as high risk, medium reward.

Funny you mention up smash, something about "spamming" them too much? The move really isn't that much better. It's kill power has hardly changed at all, and the invincibility only provides protection from what otherwise would have been colliding hit boxes that still would have landed the move. Up smash in brawl was far easier to hit, and provided just as much kill power. The move did not get buffed in my opinion, simply rebalanced.

G&W has literally zero reliable kill options until over 140-150, where f-tilt becomes the one semi-safe option

 

[X3I]

Bucket does count, it add pressure. Against a Samus for exemple, is it worth it to bucket a Down B ?
It's risky. But you can one-shot her if you got 3 of it (same for the Neutral B).
Obviously, because of these come-back strategies, 3 stocks are better than 2.
Oh, and if she doesn't use her bucket-able moves... Well, you win, since you cut her some options.

I disagree about what you say for Judge. It can't be "medium reward" by definition, because there is the 9.
The 8 has kill follow-ups too, 6 and 7 make you in an edgeguard position...

Basically, his USmash is now a Shoryuken.
Guess time will prove I'm right.

And DSmash is still do-able after a Nair, by the way.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

...
Averages are something you learn in like, first grade. 1-9 Averages to 5. It is literally a medium reward by definition. Literally. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. If by your logic it can't be medium because of 9, it literally becomes medium again because of 1.

No opponent will lose because you shut down one or two of their moves. If you use your own logic, than G&W would lose when the other character doesn't have something to bucket, because bucket wouldn't do anything.

Also, no it doesn't. Not reliably.

 

[X3I]

1 is high risk. 9 is high reward.

And when I said "you win", I didn't mean "you win the match" -___-

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

1 is not high-risk. Judgement is medium risk. 1 is low reward. 9 is high reward.

The warlock punch is high risk high reward. It is high risk because everyone on the board knows exactly what is coming and can react and punish accordingly. I wouldn't say judgement is high risk because it doesn't have that much start up lag, but it definitely becomes medium risk in 1 on 1 because there exists a significant time frame for punishment.

 

[X3I]

According to your logic, Judgement is "low-risk" then.
But it's not, you can't say this move isn't risky.

 

[DriveSober]

I could completely understand G&W being rated as the worst character in the game. If anyone wants to say that G&W is top half or even average then I'd like to see some competitive footage of it.

 

[K-45]

I find him a very fun character to use up to the point to almost maining him but he dose have a ton of weaknesses and he's very easy to punish. But I still say he's decent at best I can see him being top D teir to low C teir

 

[Born in 1839...]

He's my favorite character ever. Is he good? Well, I think he's kinda bad.

 

[_hunt]

I don't care if he sucks - I use him anyway. But I have noticed that it is difficult to use him against good players online. So I can't imagine how difficult it would be to use him against competitive players in the same scenarios.

 

[Shyguymask]

He's maybe "bad", but he's still my main since Brawl. (I never played Melee.)

But to be honest, from my experience G&W seems to depend a bit of the character he's facing in 1v1. I found myself having trouble with good Marth/Lucina and (Toon) Link players, but often had a fun/easy time with Mega Man and sometime Ganondorf.

One time I got lucky because I was facing a nooby Zelda player and she use Side+B to me when I had a ton of time to bring up my Bucket, then beats her with the Oil.

His smash attack are fasts, and don't really seems to lack of power compared to other characters.

His (probably) only Meteor Smash option is his Down Aerial, and is very unreliable when used to edgeguarding.

Spamming Dash attack is effective on heavy character at low percentage, I can land 2-5 Dash attack if they don't react fast enough.

You should not use Down aerial on your enemy too often, especially if they know how to dodge it, or worse, shield it then grab you. I try to play the Mind game, waiting for I get closer to the ground after using Up+B, then using either Side aerial or Down aerial attack, depending of the situation.

On Smash 3ds I also have 50% win percentage on For Glory mode 1v1, with about 85% of the match using G&W. I had like 57% win percentage but I started losing so much for no reasons, eventually dropping to 50% win.

Overall I don't think he's that bad of a character, and he quite rely on luck.

 

[Portanix]

You know that 50% win ratio in online mode is quite bad right?
I haven't played G&W often but I see that this character is really bad. His arials are just bad, his moves have long lag and he does not have a good finisher besides is FSmash. I consider G&W to be the worst.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I've resisted the idea that GaW is the worst in the game for awhile now, but I've started to draw the conclusion that he is most likely the worst character in the game on my own now. That isn't to say that he is an absolutely horrible character by any means like Brawl Ganon or Melee Kirby. GaW just suffers from having weaknesses that outweigh his strengths. If GaW had a more viable selection of kill options, he'd be a lot better for sure.

Edit: For the record, I'm not really including any of the Miis when I'm considering which character might be the "worst" in the game.

 

[SFA Smiley]

He's not the worst.

He's not THAT bad.

He's just not good.

 

[Portanix]

Then who is the worst?

 

[meleebrawler]

Why are we trying to find a worst character?

 

[Neb]

His KO options are fine, and will likely improve upon better consideration of G&W's moveset, frame data, and game mechanics... Two things hinder his growth. First, the consequence of lingering hitboxes and end lag on his tools create great commitment in the neutral. He cannot effectively hold ground with our traditional thoughts for zoning. If we're spacing and playing safe, as you should with a light character, he will naturally be forced to the ledge or into crossups -- even successful attacks do not flow into others like most characters. However, chef helps in some regard by maintaining the advantage. Second is our board. I noticed we've been having an ongoing discussion about how good or bad G&W is since the 3DS version was released (it's January), and we know this is considerably unproductive as the other boards progress their individual metagame. Also half the reason most consider him trash.

 

[SFA Smiley]

The problem is that people care too much about how good he is.

I'm saying he's bad because he is bad.

But so what, if you don't want to use a bad character then don't use GW. I'm not going to say he's good when he actually isn't that's dumb and is more unproductive

If you like the character use him. I know he's bad, I still use him (second to sheik)

Use who you want to use, just don't trick yourself into thinking he's something he's not, you're just going to have to work for those wins, you don't have a killing throw like ness, or shiek's fair, or a Luma or whatever the top tiers have.

I agree we are fascinated with how good he is for some reason.

Who cares, let's just figure out how to use this character

 

[Neb]

Yes. If we can agree on anything, it should be developing the character. Everything else is better left unsaid.

 

[earthman888]

I main mr.game and watch and the first thing you need to learn about him is proper timing. You need to know what attacks to use and when to use them at the right time. For me attack lag is his biggest problem. Playing smart and knowing what to do at the right time is the best way to play as him. Although I don't care if he is terrible, maybe a kill throw would have been nice for him to have since I have to admit it is kind of hard to get a KO for him. Overall you just have to be smart with him and not just randomly rush in like other characters ( I am looking at you Little Mack).

 

[Ultimastrike]

So, I took a read through this thread.

G&W's main problem is killing, and doesn't have the safest kill options even with a mix-up.

Judge Hammer in general is a good move, but saying it's high risk medium reward is nonsense. I can agree that it has some lag, but it in fact can become any reward, and is also safe on certain percents from DThrow. 9 is the largest reward possible, granting an KO at 60%(heavies survive mid-stage if at very low percents). 7 has moderate KB and gives G&W 4% of his health after eating the apple. 8 I've been working on aerial combos, but I've yet to try it in a online setting. 6 kills at 140% against heavies. I'll type more later.

 

[Ultimastrike]

k, continuing off my last post.

5 is a multi-hit electrical attack, which can do 10% if all of them connect(not the best number, though). 4 is just straight 8%. 3 CAN BREAK SHIELDS; it can be used as a mindgame to make people fear the 3 when it comes to their shielding habits, even if it's just up to luck. 2 has the possibility to trip, and give G&W a free hit. 1 is the worst reward, and does a 10% health swing in your opponent's favor(G&W takes 12%, enemy takes 2%).

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

If you're going to be one of the lightest and easiest-to-KO characters in the game, you better either be quick or be strong... and G&W is neither.
Compare with Mewtwo, who is nearly the same weight, and is even bigger, making it easier to hit, but actually has a variety of high damage and high knockback moves.
In Smash, speed is priceless and laggy animations are a death sentence. Game & Watch has the worst of both worlds.
I love the character, but would never lie to myself and say he's better than he is. I'd rather admit the character's flaws openly so that maybe they gain attention for any future balance changes.

 

[Denzill7]

I wouldn't say he's the worst character in the game. While his negative attributes certainly hurt him, his positive attributes can still be used to the fullest. You'll obviously have a way harder time fishing for kills, but you can rack up percent like a madman on a fresh stock. Also, why are so many people obsessing over dthrow judge 9 when dthrow nair/uair is way safer? Regardless, G&W is in the bottom half of the roster.

 

[meleebrawler]

Also, why are so many people obsessing over dthrow judge 9 when dthrow nair/uair is way safer?

Because when you play a low stamina character, you ask, nay, BEG for some kind of borderline broken offence.

 

[Denzill7]

Because when you play a low stamina character, you ask, nay, BEG for some kind of borderline broken offence.

Yeah, but Judge is balanced pretty well considering it's a 1/9 chance of a OHKO, and a 1/3 chance of getting a somewhat good number (6,8,9). Since it's inconsistent, punishable on a bad number, and doesn't work all the time with down throw on lighter characters, it's ultimately way better to just nair, as it leads into a lot more options. Judge is definitely a good mix up out of down throw, but I rarely use it unless I'm at the correct percent range. All in all, Judge isn't reliable by any means, but every G&W main can tell you that it feels amazing to land a 9. So to me it's more of a surprise move to use, not a move to just spam after down throw.

 

[Danny of AD 1]

Saying game and watch is the worst character brings me to the terrible 12 because of low priority
All non starters in the Wii u version should be horrible then by your logic
The terrible 12 are falco wario lucina dark pit dr mario rob mr game and watch duck hunt m2 lucas roy and ryu
Mr game and watch is on the same level as the others resulting in a twelve way tie on the worst character
But that was last year in 2014
To be honest after playing all 52 characters at all levels of play the worst character might be lucario
Lucario may be worse than game and watch but we may never know because no one else besides myself wants to play as game and watch
This is also true in brawl that meta knight is a bottom tier at least when I play as him
Jigglypuff may be worse than ganondorf but we may never know because no one wants to play as ganondorf
Browser may be worse than pichu in melee but we may never know because no one wants to play as pichu
Yoshi may be worse than link and luigi in n64 but we may never know because no one wants to play as link or luigi

 

[CaikLazer]

As a G&W main, I admit he is bad. But he is nowhere near the second worst. He is atleast mid.