People think GnW is bad...?

[Folie]

stop necro'ing this dumb thread you nerds

 

[Shyguymask]

Bucket doesn't count. Seriously. If your opponents fill your bucket, they are not playing you wisely. Go to one tournament and see how often you get a chance to bucket projectiles, if they're even using a character that allows it. Especially when you consider talk of 2 stock prevailing, there is no way you're filling it.

Judge is good in certain scenarios, all still involve luck, but none of these scenarios fall under "killing move." The move is literally designed as high risk, medium reward.

Funny you mention up smash, something about "spamming" them too much? The move really isn't that much better. It's kill power has hardly changed at all, and the invincibility only provides protection from what otherwise would have been colliding hit boxes that still would have landed the move. Up smash in brawl was far easier to hit, and provided just as much kill power. The move did not get buffed in my opinion, simply rebalanced.

G&W has literally zero reliable kill options until over 140-150, where f-tilt becomes the one semi-safe option

You know that 50% win ratio in online mode is quite bad right?
I haven't played G&W often but I see that this character is really bad. His arials are just bad, his moves have long lag and he does not have a good finisher besides is FSmash. I consider G&W to be the worst.

If you're going to be one of the lightest and easiest-to-KO characters in the game, you better either be quick or be strong... and G&W is neither.
Compare with Mewtwo, who is nearly the same weight, and is even bigger, making it easier to hit, but actually has a variety of high damage and high knockback moves.
In Smash, speed is priceless and laggy animations are a death sentence. Game & Watch has the worst of both worlds.
I love the character, but would never lie to myself and say he's better than he is. I'd rather admit the character's flaws openly so that maybe they gain attention for any future balance changes.

Okay. I'm not trying to deny the fact that Game & Watch might not be that good in the competitive tournament scene, but don't say pure lies like this.

First of all, Up-Smash is quicker than in Brawl and still kill early, not to mention the very useful invicibility. He actually has a couple of kill options. Well, honestly I think there is no characters in the game that has "Zero kill options". Excluding his fast and actually quite-safe smash attack that kill at around 90-120%, Up-Air can kill (Although connecting the 2 hits can be a bit tricky), Double B-Air can kill foes with weak/Medium-at-best recoveries at low-damage, Side B 9, or like I mentioned you can use your quick smash attacks that are quite safe (ALMOST, at least). While his kill options aren't as amazing as like ZSS's Up B or Ganondorf overall, it doesn't mean that his kill options is at zero. Bucket could be considered, but mostly bad players let him fill it.

On another but similar subject, the only laggy Aerial I can think off with this character is his Down & Foward Aerial at landing lag. Otherwise they are fast, and his B-air is probably one of the most spammable & safe close-range move in the whole game, I'm legitly serious about this. It's because it's fast, reliable, decent multi-hit hitbox and its an amazing Edgeguarding tool. On the ground side, his only laggy attack I can think of is Side B and maybe/almost Down Smash.

It's also false to say that Game & Watch is not quick. Infact he can be very quick. I already mentioned a lot of his low-lag moves, but he has a few other one like his Dash attack and Grab (The range is pretty bad though).

So, again, I'm not trying to say G&W is a top tier character in competitive, but I'd like people to not say false things like this.

 

[Furret24]

Okay. I'm not trying to deny the fact that Game & Watch might not be that good in the competitive tournament scene, but don't say pure lies like this.

First of all, Up-Smash is quicker than in Brawl and still kill early, not to mention the very useful invicibility. He actually has a couple of kill options. Well, honestly I think there is no characters in the game that has "Zero kill options". Excluding his fast and actually quite-safe smash attack that kill at around 90-120%, Up-Air can kill (Although connecting the 2 hits can be a bit tricky), Double B-Air can kill foes with weak/Medium-at-best recoveries at low-damage, Side B 9, or like I mentioned you can use your quick smash attacks that are quite safe (ALMOST, at least). While his kill options aren't as amazing as like ZSS's Up B or Ganondorf overall, it doesn't mean that his kill options is at zero. Bucket could be considered, but mostly bad players let him fill it.

On another but similar subject, the only laggy Aerial I can think off with this character is his Down & Foward Aerial at landing lag. Otherwise they are fast, and his B-air is probably one of the most spammable & safe close-range move in the whole game, I'm legitly serious about this. It's because it's fast, reliable, decent multi-hit hitbox and its an amazing Edgeguarding tool. On the ground side, his only laggy attack I can think of is Side B and maybe/almost Down Smash.

It's also false to say that Game & Watch is not quick. Infact he can be very quick. I already mentioned a lot of his low-lag moves, but he has a few other one like his Dash attack and Grab (The range is pretty bad though).

So, again, I'm not trying to say G&W is a top tier character in competitive, but I'd like people to not say false things like this.

Up Smash is Frame 24 and has always been Frame 24. it just feels faster since this game is 60fps while previous one aren't.

Up Smash is our only smash that reliably kills before 120%. Our others have giant sourspots that are very weak, considering that our smashes are easily punished with a grab and we're tied with a few characters for having the 3rd slowest smash attack speed in the game.

Up Air is too unreliable to be considered a reliable kill move. Up Smash is our only reliable kill option before 140%.

Bair has more landing lag than Fair silly. Either way all of our aerials are punishable with a grab. It has too much landing lag to be spammed. On the ground, ftilt, dtilt, smashes, chef, judge, bucket, and dash attack are all punishable and laggy. In fact, dash attack whiffs at point blank, making it punishable with smash attacks.

Game and Watch is not very fast. Average ground speed, bad aerial acceleration, bottom 5 in fall speed, and most of his attacks are easy to punish. He does have good air speed, so there's that.

I'm not against defending Game and Watch, but don't spread obvious misinformation, especially when you criticize others for doing the same. It's extremely hypocritical.

 

[Shyguymask]

Up Smash is Frame 24 and has always been Frame 24. it just feels faster since this game is 60fps while previous one aren't.

Up Smash is our only smash that reliably kills before 120%. Our others have giant sourspots that are very weak, considering that our smashes are easily punished with a grab and we're tied with a few characters for having the 3rd slowest smash attack speed in the game.

Up Air is too unreliable to be considered a reliable kill move. Up Smash is our only reliable kill option before 140%.

Bair has more landing lag than Fair silly. Either way all of our aerials are punishable with a grab. It has too much landing lag to be spammed. On the ground, ftilt, dtilt, smashes, chef, judge, bucket, and dash attack are all punishable and laggy. In fact, dash attack whiffs at point blank, making it punishable with smash attacks.

Game and Watch is not very fast. Average ground speed, bad aerial acceleration, bottom 5 in fall speed, and most of his attacks are easy to punish. He does have good air speed, so there's that.

I'm not against defending Game and Watch, but don't spread obvious misinformation, especially when you criticize others for doing the same. It's extremely hypocritical.

I'm pretty sure that Brawl was at 60 FPS too, although G&W's up Smash was slower in Brawl.

From the middle of an omega stage with a Mega Man CPU in Training mode, I'm seeing my sweetspot F-Smash KO at around 113-120. While the Sourspot is meh, It really doesn't look that hard landing the Sweet spot. My sweetspot Down-Smash kill at around 110-115. The sourspot has horrible Knock-back but the sweetspot is pretty good. With Up-Smash I kill starting at 107.

3rd slowest smash attack? On what aspect? I really fail to see how are G&W's Smashes are one of the slowest when Bowser, Donkey Kong, Villager (F-smash), Charizard, Bowser Jr, Ike and a couple of other exist.

I said in my post that Up-Air was unreliable, but I think F-Smash is good too, assuming you land the sweespot.


And oh yeah, I was wrong about Aerial lag, I'll just swap Forward air with Back air for my point, though I still don't think the landing lag on Back air is THAT bad but not really fast either.


On the "Fast" part I was rather talking about his attacks. I think his move set overall is fairly fast with notable exception of attack like Down B (When filling bucket) and Side B. Fast but not Shiek-level of fast though.


I'll admit I was mad when I made that post.

 

[Furret24]

I'm pretty sure that Brawl was at 60 FPS too, although G&W's up Smash was slower in Brawl.

From the middle of an omega stage with a Mega Man CPU in Training mode, I'm seeing my sweetspot F-Smash KO at around 113-120. While the Sourspot is meh, It really doesn't look that hard landing the Sweet spot. My sweetspot Down-Smash kill at around 110-115. The sourspot has horrible Knock-back but the sweetspot is pretty good. With Up-Smash I kill starting at 107.

3rd slowest smash attack? On what aspect? I really fail to see how are G&W's Smashes are one of the slowest when Bowser, Donkey Kong, Villager (F-smash), Charizard, Bowser Jr, Ike and a couple of other exist.

I said in my post that Up-Air was unreliable, but I think F-Smash is good too, assuming you land the sweespot.


And oh yeah, I was wrong about Aerial lag, I'll just swap Forward air with Back air for my point, though I still don't think the landing lag on Back air is THAT bad but not really fast either.


On the "Fast" part I was rather talking about his attacks. I think his move set overall is fairly fast with notable exception of attack like Down B (When filling bucket) and Side B. Fast but not Shiek-level of fast though.


I'll admit I was mad when I made that post.

No. Usmash is Frame 24. It has always been Frame 24. Frame data doesn't lie.

If Fsmash is going to be so slow, it should be like it is in Brawl, especially if it they're going to take away it's lingering hitbox. Dsmash is okay, but nothing to write home about. It's sweetspot may be strong, but it's frame 15 (among the worst) and it's hitbox is strict. The sourspot is worthless.

Game and Watch's fastest smash is Frame 15. Only two characters in the whole game can't beat that.

Fsmash is only reliable for punishes due to it's slow speed. Most characters can hit you before the hitbox comes out.

Our landing lag isn't terrible, but they're unsafe due to their meh range. They are all punishable with a grab.

Dtilt, fsmash, ftilt, dair, and usmash all suffer badly from either starting or ending lag. While most characters can't beat our FAF speed, most characters also have safety in their moveset, which we don't. What does speed matter if we get punished for doing almost anything either way?

 

[Folie]

im not going to write a huge paragraph trying to argue bc smashboards arguments are a lost cause but here's some corrections

1. retreating bair/fair, crossup bair and some random others are safe on shield depending on the character. Spacing is key.
2. Our fsmash and usmash (more heavily upsmash), while heavy on startup, are actually among some of the fastest in the game in terms of endlag. The main issue with fsmash is that the sourspot does a pitiful amount of shield stun/shield pushback. Usmash>jab is a great ledge bait/trap.
3. sweetspot dsmash is great, and actually not the hard to land when you know your spacing.
4. Slow fall speed isn't necessarily good or bad, it has its benefits and its weaknesses.

"zero kill options" is a blatant lie, the truth is more so along the lines of "zero easy, reliable kill confirms"

 

[Shyguymask]

No. Usmash is Frame 24. It has always been Frame 24. Frame data doesn't lie.

If Fsmash is going to be so slow, it should be like it is in Brawl, especially if it they're going to take away it's lingering hitbox. Dsmash is okay, but nothing to write home about. It's sweetspot may be strong, but it's frame 15 (among the worst) and it's hitbox is strict. The sourspot is worthless.

Game and Watch's fastest smash is Frame 15. Only two characters in the whole game can't beat that.

Fsmash is only reliable for punishes due to it's slow speed. Most characters can hit you before the hitbox comes out.

Our landing lag isn't terrible, but they're unsafe due to their meh range. They are all punishable with a grab.

Dtilt, fsmash, ftilt, dair, and usmash all suffer badly from either starting or ending lag. While most characters can't beat our FAF speed, most characters also have safety in their moveset, which we don't. What does speed matter if we get punished for doing almost anything either way?

After watching, Brawl's Up Smash is faster that I thought but I still think that Sm4sh Up smash is a TINY BIT faster if not the same speed.

When talking about Smash attacks's speed I also talk about Endlag. Judging from what I've seen, his Smash has pretty low endlag.

F-Smash is really not slow though. It's nothing special but it's not slow.

D-tilt anf Dair are the only attacks that really slow compared to the rest of his moveset. At least they buffed D-air but it really need to be somewhat faster to make it a worthwhile attack to use as one your main ones.

 

[Furret24]

After watching, Brawl's Up Smash is faster that I thought but I still think that Sm4sh Up smash is a TINY BIT faster if not the same speed.

When talking about Smash attacks's speed I also talk about Endlag. Judging from what I've seen, his Smash has pretty low endlag.

F-Smash is really not slow though. It's nothing special but it's not slow.

D-tilt anf Dair are the only attacks that really slow compared to the rest of his moveset. At least they buffed D-air but it really need to be somewhat faster to make it a worthwhile attack to use as one your main ones.

No. They are equally fast. Please stop saying they're different.

True, they are low in endlag, but that is nullified by their very slow start-up. Even characters like Bowser have atleast one fast smash attack.

Dair was nerfed. It kills 20% later, does considerably less damage, can no longer be slow-falled, and had it's landing lag nearly doubled.

 

[Shyguymask]

No. They are equally fast. Please stop saying they're different.

True, they are low in endlag, but that is nullified by their very slow start-up. Even characters like Bowser have atleast one fast smash attack.

Dair was nerfed. It kills 20% later, does considerably less damage, can no longer be slow-falled, and had it's landing lag nearly doubled.

It's exaggerating to say that his Smash attacks's startup are "Very slow". They look average/normal speed to me.

And my bad I didn't mean to say D-air I wanted to say D-Tilt. The windbox doesn't help that much unless you do it on Little Mac's Side B near the ledge which is extremely hilarious.

 

[Furret24]

It's exaggerating to say that his Smash attacks's startup are "Very slow". They look average/normal speed to me.

And my bad I didn't mean to say D-air I wanted to say D-Tilt. The windbox doesn't help that much unless you do it on Little Mac's Side B near the ledge which is extremely hilarious.

What part of third slowest in Smash Attack start-up do you not get?

D-tilt is rebalanced in my eyes. It has kill power now, but it's new endlag makes it more risky to use. The windbox isn't all that useful in most match-ups.

 

[Shyguymask]

What part of third slowest in Smash Attack start-up do you not get?

D-tilt is rebalanced in my eyes. It has kill power now, but it's new endlag makes it more risky to use. The windbox isn't all that useful in most match-ups.

It's very hard to believe that Game & Watch's Smash attacks are one of the slowest whenever it's on startup or endlag.

 

[Folie]

the startups are p average, just bad compared to characters with amazingly fast startup smash moves

you guys are both in the wrong mentality of comparing brawl g&w to S4 g&w, they should be treated as entirely different characters and are played entirely differently at top level. I swear we're the only board that still talks about the brawl version of our characters like it actually matters

 

[Furret24]

the startups are p average, just bad compared to characters with amazingly fast startup smash moves

you guys are both in the wrong mentality of comparing brawl g&w to S4 g&w, they should be treated as entirely different characters and are played entirely differently at top level. I swear we're the only board that still talks about the brawl version of our characters like it actually matters

You're right on that. I really should move on from this.

I should probably stop being so pessimistic in general about him. Even if he isn't a very good character, complaining won't get me anywhere.