Patient Players

[EnhaloTricks]

What is the best way to deal with players paying really patiently? I can usually do pretty good when someone is rushing down or being aggressive in general but as soon as someone starts taking their time I find I have a hard time finding openings. Bair on shield is only so safe, so then I'll grab but they'll read that and punish.

I got two stocked by a patient Bowser the other day at a tourney and it mainly happened because his spacing was amazing and he let me come to him. I just don't quite understand the options available to me to force gameplay.

 

[DeleteThisAcct]

More importantly, you need to learn how to Ness then if you're losing to Bowser, that's pretty much inexcusable given how one-sided the matchup is in Ness' favor. Bowser is a huge target that's ridiculously slow. Being two stocked by him should NEVER be a thing.

You, as Ness, have this wonderful little thing that Bowser doesn't have, called range through projectiles. Shield pressure him, make him come to you, then wreck him.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

More importantly, you need to learn how to Ness then if you're losing to Bowser, that's pretty much inexcusable given how one-sided the matchup is in Ness' favor. Bowser is a huge target that's ridiculously slow. Being two stocked by him should NEVER be a thing.

You, as Ness, have this wonderful little thing that Bowser doesn't have, called range through projectiles. Shield pressure him, make him come to you, then wreck him.

Yeah, I tried that. He just knew the game better than I did overall (he ended up placing very high with Bowser at this tourney, I think top 10 out of 94? Or very close to that). I just couldn't get through his shield and his spot dodge lasted SO LONG it messed me up. None of my usual strategies worked cause he was just reading me. I though about using PKT to pressure him into doing something, but that's never been a safe option while grounded.

Having said that, it's more a general question about patient players. I just used the Bowser example because it was the most recent instance that I've dealt with.

 

[yoshi8984]

Actually Bowser isn't a slow target (I know he's within top 15 for dash speed, which ain't bad) and his air speed is slightly better than Ness (he has 30th best, Ness is 33rd).

I don't know the Bowser MU too well but I know it's NOT heavily in Ness' favor like many people think it is. Fair does work wonders against him but you can't trade with him constantly using that since Bowser hits pretty damn hard.

Honestly I don't really have a particular method to deal with patient players, I've usually gone all aggro too and tend to spot openings as well and somehow win lol.

 

[DeleteThisAcct]

Yeah, I tried that. He just knew the game better than I did overall (he ended up placing very high with Bowser at this tourney, I think top 10 out of 94? Or very close to that). I just couldn't get through his shield and his spot dodge lasted SO LONG it messed me up. None of my usual strategies worked cause he was just reading me. I though about using PKT to pressure him into doing something, but that's never been a safe option while grounded.

Having said that, it's more a general question about patient players. I just used the Bowser example because it was the most recent instance that I've dealt with.

PKT doesn't do enough shield damage for one (however I heard of people shield stabbing with the tail if you wanna get creative), second, if you miss, you can't missile cancel which makes you a sitting duck. I usually go to the opposite edge and use PK Flash. If he shields it, he just lost a considerable portion of his shield (making so he can't shield against another use of it or PKT2), if he comes after me, I can end the move immediately and react. Bowser's size makes it so he's easy to catch in PK Fire spam or dTilt spam.

Likewise, you don't HAVE to approach him. If he wants a stare down, give it to him, he can't win by not fighitng.

I'm not sure what to say really, I've 2-stocked every last Bowser I encountered.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

PKT doesn't do enough shield damage for one, second, if you miss, you can't missile cancel which makes you a sitting duck. I usually go to the opposite edge and use PK Flash. If he shields it, he just lost a considerable portion of his shield (making so he can't shield against another use of it or PKT2), if he comes after me, I can end the move immediately and react. Bowser's size makes it so he's easy to catch in PK Fire spam or dTilt spam.

Likewise, you don't HAVE to approach him. If he wants a stare down, give it to him, he can't win by not fighitng.

I'm not sure what to say really, I've 2-stocked every last Bowser I encountered.

I can't imagine they just walk into PK Flash. It's so telegraphed and slow. That is something to try next time I go against a slow heavy.

PK Fire just gets power shielded through if I use it for spacing.when it did catch I punished well, but it wasn't a game changer or anything. He was the best heavy I've played against, so it might just be I need more experience.

 

[DeleteThisAcct]

I can't imagine they just walk into PK Flash. It's so telegraphed and slow. That is something to try next time I go against a slow heavy.

They don't walk into it, it's just a warning shot to apply pressure and force them into shield, or to approach you - and also to edge guard once they're offstage.

 

[Noa.]

Ok the Bowser matchup is harder than one would initially presume. We do win the matchup, but it's not like we super destroy and dominate bowser. Ness definitely beats Bowser quite solidly, but Bowser has a couple tools that help him out in the matchup.

Please do not use Pk flash as any way to force approaches. Pk flash is a pretty bad move and is only useful in incredibly niche situations, and this is not one of them.

Bowser has a mechanic that allows him to ignore the knockback of moves that do 1% or less until Bowser is like at 50% or so. The name of it escapes me right now. I'm not sure on the exact percent it stops working, and how much percent he can ignore, but you can ask someone on the Bowser boards if you want something more specific.

However because of this armor, Bowser ignores the knockback of pk Fire at low percents. After about 50% or 60% he will start being affected by pk Fire. Before then don't use pk Fire at all. He'll ignore it completely and can just walk out of it.

Bowser's upB out of shield is a pretty good option. Because of it you can't hit his shield with a landing aerial safely. If you want to hit his shield safely with an aerial, you have to do a rising aerial, or Double jump away. It is hard to hit his shield safely but it's possible. Make sure to you space your rising aerials very well so you don't get punished.

In this matchup you have to have the mentality that every time you out Bowser in the air, he's gonna land with 40% more. You can juggle him for a long time with pk Thunder, or challenge him in the air directly with fair since he doesn't have any disjointed hitboxes. Don't let bowser land or recover for free. You can be incredibly aggressive to Bowser with Pk Thunder when he's recovering offstage. If he's recovering low you can also gimp him with the tail.

Patient players are common and it's important to learn how to play against them. Also make note that just because a player is patient doesn't necessarily mean that they're only on the defensive. You can approach your opponent and still be playing patiently. Patient players just like to take a while before making a commitment. They wait for the right opportunity or right read before going in. To beat a patient player you can go two ways; you can go super aggressive yourself or become just as patient as them. Going for a balanced or medium approach is the worst route to take I think. If you're always in their face and confronting them with situations and attacks, you won't give them time to think. Don't try to go for hard reads really. Just threaten them and approach them with the safest moves and options you have, with the highest frequency. To perform this option well though your tech skill has to be on point. Everything has to be perfectly spaces, and the timing of your aerials and fast falls has to be remarkable. It's technically demanding and if your tech skill is not great you will fail with this option.

If you decide to reply by being just as patient as them, then it becomes a game of reads and outplays. You both have plenty of time to think and predict each other's moves. If you think you can outsmart the other player, then it would be best to maybe slow down the pace and just outthink them yourself.

 

[FireBullet]

Bair on shield? You really shouldn't be poking and zoning with Ness' Bair, you're not DK. Rising Fair, Nair or even Up-air are all much safer options to throw out.

You need to learn to pick up people's habits. What does he do when you run up to him? Does he immediately sidestep, or does he throw up his shield? A sidestep read yields whatever you want, a shield read is a grab. No defense can be perfect.

You can literally just zone with Fairs all day and eventually the Bowser has to commit to some kind of offense to answer you.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Bair on shield? You really shouldn't be poking and zoning with Ness' Bair, you're not DK. Rising Fair, Nair or even Up-air are all much safer options to throw out.

You need to learn to pick up people's habits. What does he do when you run up to him? Does he immediately sidestep, or does he throw up his shield? A sidestep read yields whatever you want, a shield read is a grab. No defense can be perfect.

You can literally just zone with Fairs all day and eventually the Bowser has to commit to some kind of offense to answer you.

Bowser definitely outranges fair. It's fast and disjointed, but it's not the best in my opinion. Rising, retreating fair might be a good option to keep in mind!

That's what I was trying to do. Normally I'm good at it, but I was on the defensive most of the time.

@ Noa. Thanks for all the tips man! That was perfect and I'm sure it'll help a lot of people. Bowser isn't a match up I'm too familiar with, but I know we win by a decent margin. Just gotta get more experience

 

[Kodystri]

More importantly, you need to learn how to Ness then if you're losing to Bowser, that's pretty much inexcusable given how one-sided the matchup is in Ness' favor. Bowser is a huge target that's ridiculously slow. Being two stocked by him should NEVER be a thing.

You, as Ness, have this wonderful little thing that Bowser doesn't have, called range through projectiles. Shield pressure him, make him come to you, then wreck him.

Um you have clearly not fought a good Bowser yet. That MU is definitely not one-sided. Its like a +1 or +2 in our favor.

 

[Noa.]

Bair on shield? You really shouldn't be poking and zoning with Ness' Bair, you're not DK. Rising Fair, Nair or even Up-air are all much safer options to throw out.

You need to learn to pick up people's habits. What does he do when you run up to him? Does he immediately sidestep, or does he throw up his shield? A sidestep read yields whatever you want, a shield read is a grab. No defense can be perfect.

You can literally just zone with Fairs all day and eventually the Bowser has to commit to some kind of offense to answer you.

Bair is a solid approach. It doesn't have that much endlag and has an incredible amount of shield pushback. It's only unsafe on power shield usually. However Bowser's UpB does counter it cause you have to do a rising aerial on his shield, and Bair is too slow to do rising.

 

[FireBullet]

Bowser definitely outranges fair. It's fast and disjointed, but it's not the best in my opinion. Rising, retreating fair might be a good option to keep in mind!

That's what I was trying to do. Normally I'm good at it, but I was on the defensive most of the time.

@ Noa. Thanks for all the tips man! That was perfect and I'm sure it'll help a lot of people. Bowser isn't a match up I'm too familiar with, but I know we win by a decent margin. Just gotta get more experience

I obviously meant "rising/retreating". In fact I was referring to that for all his aerials. If you're not using Ness' double jump to make your aerial approaches safe on shields then you definitely need to learn how to Ness.

Approaching Fairs are pretty safe but will eventually start getting stuffed if that's all you do in the neutral to approach, and SH Fairing into a shield can be punished by a lot of characters.

 

[PK Get Rekt]

Nairs are good if you're going to try and get in, rising nairs specifically. That way you can get away if it gets blocked, you can jump away and you're in the clear for another attack.

 

[Asa]

I can't imagine they just walk into PK Flash. It's so telegraphed and slow. That is something to try next time I go against a slow heavy.

PK Fire just gets power shielded through if I use it for spacing.when it did catch I punished well, but it wasn't a game changer or anything. He was the best heavy I've played against, so it might just be I need more experience.

did you play jumbo?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

did you play jumbo?

Nah this was at a Dallas weekly.

Were you at TGC4 yesterday?

 

[DeleteThisAcct]

Um you have clearly not fought a good Bowser yet. That MU is definitely not one-sided. Its like a +1 or +2 in our favor.

That's not what EventHubs says but ok

 

[Jerodak]

Hi, I main Bowser, hopefully I can be of help.

@ Noa. Tough guy actually armors based on knockback, not percent. In Ness's case pk fire (the pillar) and dtilt are weak enough to get armored. Dtilt is armored pretty late as well, so you probably should never use it, I believe it gets armored into the mid-late 100s actually. Rage affects this, but generally by the time it works you should probably be trying to pummel -> back throw instead. I'll edit in the actual percent ranges a bit later.

As for the neutral, neither side is really pressured to approach unless the other sidre has a lead. Pk thunder is slow, lacks priority, and easily perfect shielded. Pk fire lacks range for a projectile, lags significantly, is very small, thus easier to avoid, and is woefully telegraphed. It's very possible to punish on reaction if the opponent is ready.

On the other hand, Bowser's furthest reaching attack is neutral b which lags somewhat and can be absorbed. So the neutral between both characters can be really tricky and, in my experience, usually boils down more to a mental game than anything else. Both sides can get blown up if they go aggro.

@ EnhaloTricks Since you may not be used to playing that kind of neutral, while your opponent was, it's entirely reasonable that you'd lose in that scenario. Doesn't mean you're bad, just means the other guy played the match-up better.

I'd offer to play you, but I lack the means to play online at the moment. However, the folks over at the Bowser boards are good people, so if you ask for some pointers in the match up thread I'm sure someone will help you out.

Hope this helps, good luck!

EDIT: Tough guy percentages.

(Regular Armor)
PK Fire (Pillar): 0-44% Basically every hit after the initial one.
Dtilt: 0-164%
Lasting PK Thunder - Up B 2 (Tail): 0-104%

(Armor + Crouch)
Jab1 14-41%
Jab2 14-41%
Dtilt 164-209%
Lasting PK Thunder – UP B 2 (tail): 105-150%

Unfortunately none of this data factors rage or move staling. It was all tested in training mode. However, these percentages should be largely accurate.

 

[Kodystri]

That's not what EventHubs says but ok

For future references, do not listen to anything about EventHubs. Lucina was number 1 a few times and she is clearly bottom tier. So you didn't fight a good Bowser. FIght a good Bowser before you make suggestions on how to beat a Bowser or any character in fact.

 

[Noa.]

Hi, I main Bowser, hopefully I can be of help.

@ Noa. Tough guy actually armors based on knockback, not percent. In Ness's case pk fire (the pillar) and dtilt are weak enough to get armored. Dtilt is armored pretty late as well, so you probably should never use it, I believe it gets armored into the mid-late 100s actually. Rage affects this, but generally by the time it works you should probably be trying to pummel -> back throw instead. I'll edit in the actual percent ranges a bit later.

As for the neutral, neither side is really pressured to approach unless the other sidre has a lead. Pk thunder is slow, lacks priority, and easily perfect shielded. Pk fire lacks range for a projectile, lags significantly, is very small, thus easier to avoid, and is woefully telegraphed. It's very possible to punish on reaction if the opponent is ready.

On the other hand, Bowser's furthest reaching attack is neutral b which lags somewhat and can be absorbed. So the neutral between both characters can be really tricky and, in my experience, usually boils down more to a mental game than anything else. Both sides can get blown up if they go aggro.

@ EnhaloTricks Since you may not be used to playing that kind of neutral, while your opponent was, it's entirely reasonable that you'd lose in that scenario. Doesn't mean you're bad, just means the other guy played the match-up better.

I'd offer to play you, but I lack the means to play online at the moment. However, the folks over at the Bowser boards are good people, so if you ask for some pointers in the match up thread I'm sure someone will help you out.

Hope this helps, good luck!

EDIT: Tough guy percentages.

(Regular Armor)
PK Fire (Pillar): 0-44% Basically every hit after the initial one.
Dtilt: 0-164%
Lasting PK Thunder - Up B 2 (Tail): 0-104%

(Armor + Crouch)
Jab1 14-41%
Jab2 14-41%
Dtilt 164-209%
Lasting PK Thunder – UP B 2 (tail): 105-150%

Unfortunately none of this data factors rage or move staling. It was all tested in training mode. However, these percentages should be largely accurate.

Thanks for providing information on how tough guy works! I had an idea of tough guy but I learned a lot from your post. I had no idea tough guy was based on knockback and not percent! That's cool. And I didn't think it would work until such high percents on weak moves like dtilt. Does it ever block knockback from sheik's needles?

That's not what EventHubs says but ok

Eventhubs is an awful website for information. Total scrubs vote on those tier lists and matchup charts. There is nothing of value to gain from event hubs.

 

[Jerodak]

Does it ever block knockback from sheik's needles?

Unfortunately, no. However, it helps a ton vs Mega Man (Pellets and most of the hits on Crash Bomb) and it's fairly important in the duck hunt match up (First two light gun shots from the clay pidgeon). It's also helpful vs Luigi up till about 50~% because Luigi can't fireball camp safely till then.

In most instances it's largely a gimmick that doesn't affect much though. I'm grateful it makes a difference in some of the few places it does though. Mega Man would have been a nightmare other wise.

 

[Uffe]

Take Noa.'s advice. He is absolutely right. At least from the experiences I've had against good Bowser's. As for patient players, play patient back. I remember playing up against a very patient Marth and I ended up getting two stocked the first match because of it. I got wise real fast, asking myself why I was the one approaching when he was the one without any sort of projectile. I ended up two stocking him the second match and taking the set after the third match. If you slow down, you'll see how your opponent plays. Often times they do things on reaction.

 

[Asa]

Nah this was at a Dallas weekly.

Were you at TGC4 yesterday?

Yes, you?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

@ J Jerodak that post was amazing and gave me so much knowledge! Thank you very much, man!

@ Asa yeah I went and got knocked out early. Went up against Aerolink second round (never been able to beat him, so I'm interested in what you were doing) then lost to SS Ekko due to an SD in round 3. Should've won, but shiz happens.

 

[Asa]

Damn ***** why didn't youhit me up?

Against airolunk, gotta play pretty patient.. Funny that's what this thread is about. gotta read the rolls, capitalize on his recovery, and DI proper to not get hit by uair or Usmash.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Damn ***** why didn't youhit me up?

Against airolunk, gotta play pretty patient.. Funny that's what this thread is about. gotta read the rolls, capitalize on his recovery, and DI proper to not get hit by uair or Usmash.

Hahaha I didn't think about it! Next time I'm in Houston and I go to an sfc (that's what the weekly is, right?) I'll let you know. We need to Ness ditto as well.

That makes sense. I was doing pretty good, but he is just a better player than i. Almost took game two off of him, but hes just really good at walling me out with bair.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Protip, when playing against patient (or stalling) players with no real ranged options or maneuverability, just stand on the far ledge and taunt, okay? :D

PKT can be perfect shielded, this is true, but because it can be sent a very long distance and steered, it can actually force shield and waste it, and even feign approaches, curl around and hit.
If they're not engaging you, just throw these out over and over and patiently wait for them to mess up. The cost of their screw up is far greater than yours, because if they drop shield to go after your body you just curl and hit, and in case you whiff the hit, you just keep PKT close to the ground to be ended at your discretion. You shouldn't feel too vulnerable when using grounded PKT because it can be a wall between you and your opponent, if you use it properly.

 

[Asa]

Then you get punished for using pkt in neutral. Should throw out safe spaced aerials while observing patterns to get in to advantageous position

 

[Lochy]

Eventhubs... *shivers*

Anyway if the opponent is patient try to do retreating fairs, bairs and nairs. They are both safe on shield provided that you retreat with them.
Against Bowser he doesn't have any projectiles to fight from long range so he has to approach you. Use your disjointed aerials to keep him away.

That's all I can give. Good luck!