~Path to the Peak~ 2: [Ganon's F-air]

[DUB]

Path to the Peak

A Discussion On Dealing With Character's Moves​

This thread is a place to discuss how to deal with certain characters moves (ie. Marth's fair, Falco's lasers, Samus' missiles, etc etc) and develop effective strategies to counter them. I think it would be easiest to do this on a weekly basis, but no longer then that as more time for just one move/tactic is quite a while. I will try to update the OP with all the insight after a discussion is completed. Hopefully, this will bring some life back to the boards. Provide as much information as you can about combating the discussed move. Things such as what to do OoS against it, how to bait it, how to punish it, etc etc.

Fox's Nair:

Dash-dance into grab against an aerial works, but only if they space it kinda bad. You honestly want Fox and Falco to be up above you so you can poke with u-airs. But don't get too aggressive, because when they run around b-airing off the platforms they're REALLY hard to hit.

If you don't FULLY hold down your R or L button, Nana will keep doing a light shield. That forces the other guy to time against TWO shields, which can help you shield grab a lot. They'll miss the fast fall or L-cancel, or at least it messes up their timing on the landing shine; it adds variation into the muscle memory and usually creates an exploitable gap.

I also like forcing Nana to do empty smashes that I know will miss; the opponent sees them, doesn't realize you both haven't smashed, and comes in to punish. Meanwhile, you're dashing away because you can more easily guess their spacing when they attack. Just be careful you don't crash into the lagging hitboxes. That can easily get you hit, or make your attacks clink more often than is good for you.

Shieldgrab if you're confident and they mess up the spacing. Roll if you aren't. Try and stay as much in the center of the stage as possible to keep Nana from getting gimped. Lightshields will also help relieve the pressure, but ultimately you have to make the spacey believe you're going somewhere that you aren't. If they can figure out where you're going, you will NOT outmaneuver them.

Things that beat shffl'd nairs:
-angled-up ftilt
**quick and reasonably safe
-fair
**not fast, but leads to jab reset -> grab a lot of the time
-nair, if done early enough
** not generally that reliable, but does combo into grabs
-CC sometimes
**CC dsmash is good at low percentages, although you can't rely on it too much
-fsmash
** can KO early thanks to people DI'ing down when fastfalling, but is really risky and I don't use it much.
Things that beat the full jump nair approach:
-retreating fsmash/ftilt
**Space yourself such that he lands next to you. Ftilt is easier to time and is less risky.
-utilt/sh uair
** I think uair is generally a better option since A) you can move horizontally while doing it,
B) you don't have to worry about Fox DI'ing out of it, and C) uair provides better protection than utilt does. Also, a lot of Foxes will space the nair such that if you just stand there and utilt, they will hit you with the nair while landing by your side and avoiding the utilt.

But as for more specific stuff, pay attention to how the fox is approaching. If he's spacing it so he lands on top of you or trying to land behind your sheild, just uptilt. If he's approaching at an angle then you can wavedash back and fsmash if you want to be risky, or retreating fair, try to catch him with a backair or whatever. Use your disjointed hitboxes because they all beat nair.

Ganon's F-air:​

 

[mr.fizwidget]

i heard peaches d smash was pretty good @.@

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

The answer to all is down-smash.

but if you get close to falco lasering you could have nana F-smash him he can only hit one climber

 

[Finch]

Fox's nair is a noobcannon. The best answer is to have better spacing than the fox you're playing lol.

But as for more specific stuff, pay attention to how the fox is approaching. If he's spacing it so he lands on top of you or trying to land behind your sheild, just uptilt. If he's approaching at an angle then you can wavedash back and fsmash if you want to be risky, or retreating fair, try to catch him with a backair or whatever. Use your disjointed hitboxes because they all beat nair.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i am hear to discus fox's nair against ic's.

 

[DUB]

OP Updated. Going to use quotes for a more down to earth/easy to understand what to do.

i am hear to discus fox's nair against ic's.

From a Fox's perspective, when do you feel like this move should be used against IC? What do you try to follow your n-air up with? Ways for IC to combat Fox's n-air.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

good thread, dub! you`re on your way to becoming the best ic in north carolina!

 

[TresChikon]

From a Fox's perspective, when do you feel like this move should be used against IC? What do you try to follow your n-air up with? Ways for IC to combat Fox's n-air.

Nair is generally defeated by CC.
I don't feel nair is at all a very good option when you have dair which is unCCable.

However, once the IC's are in the air and NOT grounded, nair is an excellent tool for chaining combos. I usually jab, u-tilt, or if your DI allows, nair again.

To combat the nair while grounded, CC it. To combat it in the air, DI away so Fox can't chain more things together.

However, CC may become unreliable once Fox starts resorting to drillshining. I don't know how to combat that other than have better spacing.

hehe sux for u

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

well if it's CCable then hold the C-stick down and you will get frame perfect CC from nana useing Down-smash and tech chase with popo for a grab. I thought you couldn't CC it due to the shine and amazing L-cancel and you would have to have only like 2 or 3 frames of hit stun for it to work.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm pretty sure Fox's dair loses to retreating fairs and spaced bairs. Also, dair is easier to shieldgrab, with more frames of lag and a harder to time l-cancel. Overall, dair is easier to deal with imo.

As for CC'ing Fox's nair - well, that works, but only if he nairs early (in a SHFFL) or FJ nairs. A late nair will be hard to CC grab at low percents. At higher percents, it might be possible, since you slide away enough for the shine to possibly whiff.

Personally, I find Falcon's spaced knees and dairs very hard to get around.

 

[TresChikon]

You can CC SG the nair even if it's late till about 70 or 80.

Drills aren't SGable if Fox knows the timing of hitting two shields.

If he doesn't...well...a sloppy Fox is a sh*tty Fox.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Things that beat shffl'd nairs:

-angled-up ftilt
**quick and reasonably safe

-fair
**not fast, but leads to jab reset -> grab a lot of the time

-nair, if done early enough
** not generally that reliable, but does combo into grabs

-CC sometimes
**CC dsmash is good at low percentages, although you can't rely on it too much

-fsmash
** can KO early thanks to people DI'ing down when fastfalling, but is really risky and I don't use it much.


Things that beat the full jump nair approach:

-retreating fsmash/ftilt
**Space yourself such that he lands next to you. Ftilt is easier to time and is less risky.

-utilt/sh uair
** I think uair is generally a better option since A) you can move horizontally while doing it,
B) you don't have to worry about Fox DI'ing out of it, and C) uair provides better protection than utilt does. Also, a lot of Foxes will space the nair such that if you just stand there and utilt, they will hit you with the nair while landing by your side and avoiding the utilt.

 

[Kyu Puff]

TresChikon, have you tested this or are you saying it just because it works for other characters? ICs have no traction and they can rarely cc anything (cc d-smash works occasionally, grab never); even their full shield slides a lot. They're also light and it probably knocks them over before 70 or 80.

D-air has a 5 frame disadvantage on shield, and ICs grab comes out on frame 7. If the Fox is frame perfect, he won't get shield grabbed, but imo it's easier to be frame perfect with grab than it is with shine. It's possible that he messes up, especially if the shield is angled upwards and there are two of them.

I think generally the same things -- movement, spacing, shield -- answer most moves, although there are exceptions. Usually I use sh b-air, u-air and running around to beat most of Fox's moveset.

 

[TresChikon]

I'll take back those numbers since they are most likely false about IC's.

Since CC isn't that great to combat nair, I'll retract everything I had said in my previous posts since CC is the basis of my argument.

I did not realize drillshine is that vulnerable, so I'm wrong about it being unbeatable by SG's since I know we aren't playing Theory Bros and a frame perfect drillshine isn't a viable argument.

I apologize for the misinformation I have given.

 

[DUB]

I'll take back those numbers since they are most likely false about IC's.

Since CC isn't that great to combat nair, I'll retract everything I had said in my previous posts since CC is the basis of my argument.

I did not realize drillshine is that vulnerable, so I'm wrong about it being unbeatable by SG's since I know we aren't playing Theory Bros and a frame perfect drillshine isn't a viable argument.

I apologize for the misinformation I have given.

It's fine. Maybe you learned something. As long as it generates discussion.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Bair is good against Fox in that it's a safe response to his near-ground game and does good damage, but it often doesn't lead to much, so I usually only bair if I'm facing backwards and don't want to dsmash or if I want to cover myself while retreating a bit.

Drillshine is still very good if spaced well. I think it's a bigger threat than nair -> shine, but it can be punished in similar ways.

 

[choknater]

drills are much harder to deal with than nairs imo, but its harder to space for fox so its all good

nairs can get shield grabbed unless u hit only one shield, then its too ****

spamming fox nairs when both climbers are separated is also excellent ****

 

[Kyu Puff]

B-air sets up tech-chases, but at low % you can combo it into dash attack (or d-smash if you do an approaching b-air). Most importantly though, it can discourage an aggressive Fox from approaching you directly too much and give you way more opportunities to look for u-airs and other things.

 

[`DNS`]

well if you can't shieldgrab it you can probably wd oos->dsmash or something

i'd expect ICs to have great traction though.. they have freaking cleats

 

[DUB]

I think I may wrap it up soon on Fox's nair. Theres been quite a few good posts that pretty much cover everything from what moves beat it, how to bait it, and how to punish it.

Today will be the end of the discussion on Fox's n-air most likely. If you still think you have some good points, post them! Also, taking suggestions for next move. Ganon's f-air/Jiggz b-air/lazorz/needles etc etc

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

lasers can be beaten if you sheild and wavedash out of sheild. against laser spamming falcos, i jump out of sheild after the laser hits and ice block, the sheild stun usually creates a desynch. it`s weird. ice blocks typically do 5 percent per block and lasers usually only do like 3 percent. falco can`t afford to trade in the camping game against us.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

well if you can't shieldgrab it you can probably wd oos->dsmash or something

i'd expect ICs to have great traction though.. they have freaking cleats

our traction is really good on slippery surfaces. lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

our traction is really good on slippery surfaces. lol

In conjunction with them having no traction on rough surfaces, that makes no sense whatsoever lmao.

 

[TresChikon]

Maybe I'll get it right this time...

Umm...Sometimes to counter lasers, IC's could WD forward into Falco and charge a smash. If he lasers, only one IC will be stopped while the other can still land the hit.

 

[Finch]

I think we all know how to deal with lasers. Let's discuss things that we haven't talked about 20 times already. Ganon's fair would be an excellent topic. Right now my method of dealing with it is sheild and get pushed back and hope nana doesn't die

 

[Kyu Puff]

Right now my method of dealing with it is sheild and get pushed back and hope nana doesn't die

lol, that's pretty much what I do too. It seems like you should be able to get under him when he jumps but it never works out that way.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ganon's fair is ********. I'm of the opinion that shielding it is not ideal. I'd rather pressure him.

His retreating fair is virtually unpunishable. If you assume he's going to retreat with the fair, you have a good chance of catching him with a dash attack. But if you guess wrong you could get caught by an alternatively placed fair or ftilt. Dash attack has pretty good pay-off, though, as you'll usually be rewarded with some kind of uair damage. But Ganon has no reason to keep you away if you don't approach.

If you sit back and spam iceblocks, you force him into the air eventually. But he's going to close distance on you eventually and corner you with a fair. One thing that I think should be used more in this match-up is roll back -> nana ice block / blizzard -> popo grab or dsmash. If you're absolutely cornered, SH blizzard might beat his fair. But I honestly have no idea, as I've never resorted to that.

 

[DUB]

Tomorrow I will have all of the Fox's Nair stuff updated in OP. Tomorrow we start [ Ganon's F-air] I'll let the Ganon board know we are discussing and everything should be ready to go fairly early tomorrow.

We will save lasers for another time. Ganon's f-air seems like it would be a popular topic atm so thats what we will do.

 

[PB&J]

i went in this thread and was going to post alot of things but then i read fly's post..do everything he said..f tilt can beat his nair..i use that alot.
plus everything what fly said. u can also cc grab him and nana will grab if popo takes the hit..tricky timing though

 

[DUB]

2nd discussion begins. Ganon f-air is great against icies. Lets find some solutions.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

dancing just outside of the fair`s range works. once the fair whizzes past your face immediately go in with a dash attack. i don`t think the jab can cover a quick dash attack at close range

 

[Wobbles]

I think that the best option is simply to call the Ganon's movement (you know, easier said than done and all). It's basically reading when he's going to jump, and then intercepting with an aerial. Time the wavedash to cut through with whatever aerial you feel is most appropriate, and attack right as the Ganon is attacking. Most players have a very predictable rhythm to their attacks. Figuring that out is the basis of personal matchups; I started noticing that people were doing smashes right as I was wavedashing and I was thinking, "why are they attacking here? There's a clear opening here and their attacks weren't safe at all." But against IC's (and Luigi) you have to call the rhythm of their wavedashes because once you've committed to that movement, you're stuck sliding across the level. Make an effort to switch up those movement, and the opponent will look like they're throwing out random attacks and openings will just kind of make themselves apparent. It looks like people are attacking blindly, but they're trying to base themselves on your rhythm.

Maybe that's useful? I'm not totally sure.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

the way i look at this matchup as ic's is to focus on when the ganon is in the air.

if he's doing retreating sh fairs, he'll always either jab, jump again or dash to start over the process.

IMO if you watch any ganon player, you can predict when they'll fair. fair is a great move for so many reasons, but speed and spontaneity are not among them.
see if you can't get in with wd utilt, uair, or dash attack. ic's can get in quicker than they get credit for.

p.s. i don't play ic's therefore my advice is null and void.

 

[Turazrok]

the way i look at this matchup as ic's is to focus on when the ganon is in the air.

if he's doing retreating sh fairs, he'll always either jab, jump again or dash to start over the process.

IMO if you watch any ganon player, you can predict when they'll fair. fair is a great move for so many reasons, but speed and spontaneity are not among them.
see if you can't get in with wd utilt, uair, or dash attack. ic's can get in quicker than they get credit for.

p.s. i don't play ic's therefore my advice is null and void.

You're that guy who uploaded the wombo combo video lololololol!!!

 

[Meme]

For F-air I go for an WDed Up Smash or U-air, and start juggling from there...

As the previous posts said, it's up to get the timing of their next jump, and approach with a lengthy Wavedash and intercept the jump... Since most Ganons would avoid being grabbed, and go for F-air or D-air.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

You're that guy who uploaded the wombo combo video lololololol!!!

call me the wombo master... everyone esle does.

 

[Turazrok]

call me the wombo master... everyone esle does.

I favorited it :D. Make a nother.