Official Patch Notes for 1.1.1

[ShinnyMetal]

Nope, sorry

Well that's ok. It might just be the different between a human di as opposed to a cpu.

 

[GOGOlink]

I only play link .. his arrow damage has been reduced and the arrow knockback also reduced.. and his spin attack seem to come out faster ?

 

[Dumbfire]

I only play link .. his arrow damage has been reduced and the arrow knockback also reduced.. and his spin attack seem to come out faster ?

You know I never actually bothered to check out arrows... I think you're right about them, slight damage and knockback decrease might be. Spin attack is the same, speed was buffed in 1.06.

@Edit: Yes, full charge is now 12 percent instead of 13-14, no charge is always 4 it seems and no longer 4-5. You used to get 12 with medium charge. Aerial knockback might be decreased. Zelkam says it's the same.

 

[GOGOlink]

You know I never actually bothered to check out arrows... I think you're right about them, slight damage and knockback decrease might be. Spin attack is the same, speed was buffed in 1.06.

about the damage im not sure .but the knockback has been reduced pretty hard i used to zone people with arrows (ledge guard)

 

[DUKEL]

Why change our arrows? I guess at intermediate play people don't know how to press the airdodge or shield buttons.

Anyway our grab buff is significant. That extra distance makes it so that it's further than our fsmash, i believe. Also - grab -> downthrow -> utilt combos is a thing

Speaking of utilt, i feel like it chains into itself better now, but that might just be placebo.

 

[Serac]

Why change our arrows? I guess at intermediate play people don't know how to press the airdodge or shield buttons.

Anyway our grab buff is significant. That extra distance makes it so that it's further than our fsmash, i believe. Also - grab -> downthrow -> utilt combos is a thing

Speaking of utilt, i feel like it chains into itself better now, but that might just be placebo.

If you have someone to check with, try to utilt sonic or luigi, their nairs seemed to go trough strings of our utilts.

 

[ama99]

I'm almost certain arrows have always been 12%

 

[Rizen]

Arrows have done 12% damage for a long time.

Why change our arrows?

Snipe recoveries, punish landing/dodge lag, make people stay in their shield for a second and try to time the arrow to hit the shield drop lag.

 

[Dumbfire]

I'm almost certain arrows have always been 12%

I checked here but it has long been dated might have been earlier patch:
http://smashboards.com/threads/its-freakin-link-a-look-at-link-in-smash-4.368190/

Arrows have done 12% damage for a long time.

Snipe recoveries, punish landing/dodge lag, make people stay in their shield for a second and try to time the arrow to hit the shield drop lag.

Lol arrows are ****ing awful if they nerfed them it was for FG type Links who charge them all the time.

Zerker noted our normal grab range seems bigger than our pivot grab range now.

 

[Rizen]

Lol arrows are ****ing awful if they nerfed them it was for FG type Links who charge them all the time.

They weren't nerfed. Of course we shouldn't charge them often but charged/semi charged arrows do have uses.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I checked here but it has long been dated might have been earlier patch:
http://smashboards.com/threads/its-freakin-link-a-look-at-link-in-smash-4.368190/


Lol arrows are ****ing awful if they nerfed them it was for FG type Links who charge them all the time.

Zerker noted our normal grab range seems bigger than our pivot grab range now.

Arrows are literally one of the big reasons to play Link. They're a rare projectile that beat reaction time at LONG RANGE. Meaning your opponent HAS to be proactive to avoid them (plus they cover landings extremely well).

But oh well, the other buffs matter a lot more. Especially the grab related ones, given Link depends massively on that. If Link actually has a low% grab combo game on the entire cast, he's viable. Supposedly now it's a lot easier to trap people with D-throw now with the improved angle I'm hearing? Sounding like D-throw U-air is mad legit. Link's biggest problem was having terrible options out of grab.

 

[link7]

I don't know if it's me but... Did Link become less heavy? I feel like he's dying faster, even with proper survival DI.
Oh, and I don't think the buffs we got are all that spectacular so far.

 

[KenMeister]

I don't know if it's me but... Did Link become less heavy? I feel like he's dying faster, even with proper survival DI.
Oh, and I don't think the buffs we got are all that spectacular so far.

Doesn't quite make up for the jab nerfs, but at least we have a significantly better grab game (which is what link needed the most), and a dtilt setup, which somewhat alleviates Link's problems KOing.

 

[link7]

Doesn't quite make up for the jab nerfs, but at least we have a significantly better grab game (which is what link needed the most), and a dtilt setup, which somewhat alleviates Link's problems KOing.

The dthrow combo setup really isn't all that great though, same with dtilt. Again, Link is just too slow to really act out of any of his moves. Someone said something about a mini hoo-hah, and I answer that with "no", because the opponent can just DI out of just about anything we can do. Until they nerf airdodges, our meta game is still going to be around camping.
The longer grab range is nice I guess.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doesn't quite make up for the jab nerfs, but at least we have a significantly better grab game (which is what link needed the most), and a dtilt setup, which somewhat alleviates Link's problems KOing.

Link still has KO traps and setups from Jab 2 that only can be escaped by jumping but still can be read and punished, I honestly think the Jab 1 nerf is the most overblown nerf generally speaking. Didn't really change who crapped on Link in neutral, made some of his setups based slightly more on reading jumps. If Link now can do D-throw and legitimately force an airdodge bait situation at KO percents (which I would assume be possible by simply raising the angle and reducing the damage on D-throw), he's viable because this was literally THE big thing that held him back: lacking even rudimentary followups on throws.

 

[Huggles828]

Losing jab 1 killed the little CQC game he had. Before you could throw out a long range jab; if it whiffed, you could shield, run away, try another attack to mindgame your opponent, whatever. If it hit, it was basically a guaranteed utilt (so jab>easy kill option at 100%+) or you could dsmash or usmash or fsmash or whatever. Now you basically HAVE to jab 2, which gives the opponent another hit to DI away from utilt or smash or whatever, on top of making jab 1 very unsafe because it has tons of lag now (no IASA frames at all except into jab2). So yes, it was a huge nerf because it meant we did have to run away and spam now.

The increased grab range and dthrow mindgame followups are indeed very nice as is the buff to the usmash hitboxes. Honestly if you've got the time to stand on the ground and charge your arrows you've got better things you could be doing (I'll give you it's an option to punish landings and hitting the ground, as well as off the edge). They're not bad firing from out of a jump or SH off the edge either and definitely have their uses, but I could name like 10 moves Link has that are better than his arrows, they're definitely not THE reason to play as Link (the correct answer, btw, to why to play as Link is because HE'S FREAKING LINK!).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Losing jab 1 killed the little CQC game he had. Before you could throw out a long range jab; if it whiffed, you could shield, run away, try another attack to mindgame your opponent, whatever. If it hit, it was basically a guaranteed utilt (so jab>easy kill option at 100%+) or you could dsmash or usmash or fsmash or whatever. Now you basically HAVE to jab 2, which gives the opponent another hit to DI away from utilt or smash or whatever, on top of making jab 1 very unsafe because it has tons of lag now (no IASA frames at all except into jab2). So yes, it was a huge nerf because it meant we did have to run away and spam now.

The increased grab range and dthrow mindgame followups are indeed very nice as is the buff to the usmash hitboxes. Honestly if you've got the time to stand on the ground and charge your arrows you've got better things you could be doing (I'll give you it's an option to punish landings and hitting the ground, as well as off the edge). They're not bad firing from out of a jump or SH off the edge either and definitely have their uses, but I could name like 10 moves Link has that are better than his arrows, they're definitely not THE reason to play as Link (the correct answer, btw, to why to play as Link is because HE'S FREAKING LINK!).

Link's Jab didn't save him from Fox or any legitimately good midrange game given nobody in the right mind would ever bother walking into Link's Jab range unless they also had horrible midrange options. Hylian Shield buff >>> Jab nerf when it actually makes the Fox matchup way less horrible, while the Jab nerf basically affects no matchups outside of the gimmick 0-death potential if you caught someone at the right place at the right time (which was situational enough that it barely mattered anyway). People shouldn't DI out of your setups given D-smash has good range, and Dash -> U-smash generally catches floaties or jumps. It only sorta sucks that you don't have the hitstun to combo counter Jab cancel -> stuff which means you sometimes have to read jumps, but given it still leads to KOs it's really not much to cry about. Link was never safe against good midrange games pre-Jab nerf and if I can still get KO setups from Jab, that's all that matters for that one move.

Given Link's ONE option to actually stop turtling in midrange is Dashgrab, yeah. Any grab buffs are hugely more important than whatever happened to Link's Jab.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That means that Fox needs to revise the At thread.

I'll get on to this once exams are over. Hopefully by then we'll have everything figured out so I can do it all in one hit.

 

[Nimious]

Link's Jab didn't save him from Fox or any legitimately good midrange game given nobody in the right mind would ever bother walking into Link's Jab range unless they also had horrible midrange options. Hylian Shield buff >>> Jab nerf when it actually makes the Fox matchup way less horrible, while the Jab nerf basically affects no matchups outside of the gimmick 0-death potential if you caught someone at the right place at the right time (which was situational enough that it barely mattered anyway). People shouldn't DI out of your setups given D-smash has good range, and Dash -> U-smash generally catches floaties or jumps. It only sorta sucks that you don't have the hitstun to combo counter Jab cancel -> stuff which means you sometimes have to read jumps, but given it still leads to KOs it's really not much to cry about. Link was never safe against good midrange games pre-Jab nerf and if I can still get KO setups from Jab, that's all that matters for that one move.

Given Link's ONE option to actually stop turtling in midrange is Dashgrab, yeah. Any grab buffs are hugely more important than whatever happened to Link's Jab.

The loss of Jab one cancels ruined match-ups. You have no idea what you're talking about.

If Link's jab hit shield back then he was still generally safe because he had the choice of either Jab -> Grab or Jab -> Up-tilt which is only one frame slower than jab itself and can push your opponent far enough that they can't grab you. You could protect yourself well back then but now if you find yourself jabbing on shield you really have no options, you get grabbed at least. Against Fox that means welcome to that BS jab lock.

Jab one cancels allowed you to get your opponent off of you. Against rush-down types this was very important.

It's more than that as Link had a true combo off jab as well. Jab -> Up-tilt was a true combo at high percentages and was a very reliable kill option, not to mention Jab -> Down Smash or F-tilt. Obviously this affected match-ups...

Against Shieks and Foxes there's really no point in fighting up close, it's terrible as you can't combo them and even if you shield their attacks you generally couldn't grab them due to the slower ranged grab. Even if you had grabbed them you got nothing off of it.

Having played against great Shieks and Foxes I don't think Link stands a chance anymore after the nerf. I'll reconsider now that grab is a real option but back then Link might as well be free against those characters.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I was trying to get things working... I get true combo on a specific % on Megaman (D-throw -> Uair)...

I turned off my console to see TV with my wife... but i was thinking with the faster dtilt... Can 1st hit Fair into Dtilt combo? If this is true, we can do some good strings.

 

[Nimious]

I was trying to get things working... I get true combo on a specific % on Megaman (D-throw -> Uair)...

I turned off my console to see TV with my wife... but i was thinking with the faster dtilt... Can 1st hit Fair into Dtilt combo? If this is true, we can do some good strings.

I've been thinking the same thing and I think it should work.

I do not think it will be a true combo but should always work at low percentages if you fast fall the first hit of Fair into D-tilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The loss of Jab one cancels ruined match-ups. You have no idea what you're talking about.

If Link's jab hit shield back then he was still generally safe because he had the choice of either Jab -> Grab or Jab -> Up-tilt which is only one frame slower than jab itself and can push your opponent far enough that they can't grab you. You could protect yourself well back then but now if you find yourself jabbing on shield you really have no options, you get grabbed at least. Against Fox that means welcome to that BS jab lock.

Jab one cancels allowed you to get your opponent off of you. Against rush-down types this was very important.

It's more than that as Link had a true combo off jab as well. Jab -> Up-tilt was a true combo at high percentages and was a very reliable kill option, not to mention Jab -> Down Smash or F-tilt. Obviously this affected match-ups...

Against Shieks and Foxes there's really no point in fighting up close, it's terrible as you can't combo them and even if you shield their attacks you generally couldn't grab them due to the slower ranged grab. Even if you had grabbed them you got nothing off of it.

Having played against great Shieks and Foxes I don't think Link stands a chance anymore after the nerf. I'll reconsider now that grab is a real option but back then Link might as well be free against those characters.

Link's real mixup on block after Jab always hinged on interrupting things with Jab 2 anyway. Sure there's shenanigans, but the difference between getting someone off you with Jab 1 cancels and Jab 2 cancels is really not that big especially since as you said yourself, Jab 1 really only properly comboed into stuff at higher percents anyway. You still get ****ed over in midrange by Sheik and Fox either way if they don't ever choose to walk in your Jab range.

Link is ****ing high tier now. D-throw is SO GOOD like LEGIT COMBOS INTO U-AIR AT KO % GOOD. Against Fox you can do D-throw -> U-smash starting around like idk 20% or so JESUS. Even in matchups like Luigi where D-throw U-air doesn't combo the position advantage is so good it might as well.

I swear man, ALL LINK EVER NEEDED WAS GOOD THROWS AND NOW HE HAS THEM! Also confirming that the grab range buff is real.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Link's real mixup on block after Jab always hinged on interrupting things with Jab 2 anyway. Sure there's shenanigans, but the difference between getting someone off you with Jab 1 cancels and Jab 2 cancels is really not that big especially since as you said yourself, Jab 1 really only properly comboed into stuff at higher percents anyway. You still get ****ed over in midrange by Sheik and Fox either way if they don't ever choose to walk in your Jab range.

Link is ****ing high tier now. D-throw is SO GOOD like LEGIT COMBOS INTO U-AIR AT KO % GOOD. Against Fox you can do D-throw -> U-smash starting around like idk 20% or so JESUS. Even in matchups like Luigi where D-throw U-air doesn't combo the position advantage is so good it might as well.

I swear man, ALL LINK EVER NEEDED WAS GOOD THROWS AND NOW HE HAS THEM! Also confirming that the grab range buff is real.

I agree Link needed a better grab game before (and it seems better now), but isn't there still the problem that it's a lot slower than other character's grabs? This still is counting on getting the grabs in the first place right? I think you're overreacting on the high tier for exactly that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I agree Link needed a better grab game before (and it seems better now), but isn't there still the problem that it's a lot slower than other character's grabs? This still is counting on getting the grabs in the first place right? I think you're overreacting on the high tier for exactly that.

Link's biggest problem is his ONLY tool to stop turtling in midrange is his grab.

Now that his grab is rewarding, his gameplan actually works. Link does fine in close and long range. In close range, he still has Jab, U-tilt, and Up-smash which are strong and threatening moves. Long range both Bombs and Arrows have to be respected as both of them can be used in ways that beat reaction time. Link's dead zone is midrange where his F-tilt, DA, and Z-air are all slow, and previously he only had a terrible reward Dashgrab to fill in the gap against people who simply waited there.

 

[Lawz.]

Link's real mixup on block after Jab always hinged on interrupting things with Jab 2 anyway. Sure there's shenanigans, but the difference between getting someone off you with Jab 1 cancels and Jab 2 cancels is really not that big especially since as you said yourself, Jab 1 really only properly comboed into stuff at higher percents anyway. You still get ****ed over in midrange by Sheik and Fox either way if they don't ever choose to walk in your Jab range.

Link is ****ing high tier now. D-throw is SO GOOD like LEGIT COMBOS INTO U-AIR AT KO % GOOD. Against Fox you can do D-throw -> U-smash starting around like idk 20% or so JESUS. Even in matchups like Luigi where D-throw U-air doesn't combo the position advantage is so good it might as well.

I swear man, ALL LINK EVER NEEDED WAS GOOD THROWS AND NOW HE HAS THEM! Also confirming that the grab range buff is real.

Dthrow does not combo into uair at kill percents. Fox can just DI and airdodge

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dthrow does not combo into uair at kill percents. Fox can just DI and airdodge

I'm registering consecutive hits in training mode at KO percents, and given the angle on the throw, DIing would more likely help Link combo into the U-air given Fox would be positioning himself lower by DIing sideways. And more importantly the positioning basically forces an airdodge even if you're not in combo range.

 

[MagmarFire]

Link is ****ing high tier now. D-throw is SO GOOD like LEGIT COMBOS INTO U-AIR AT KO % GOOD.

I wouldn't go that far; by the time kill % rolls around, people can DI to the side pretty easily.

EDIT: Argh, ninja'd. But it's worth repeating, I guess.

 

[Lawz.]

I'm registering consecutive hits in training mode at KO percents, and given the angle on the throw, DIing would more likely help Link combo into the U-air given Fox would be positioning himself lower by DIing sideways.

But I'm labbing it right now with someone who is mixing up DI with left and right and he is able to airdodge.

If they don't DI it is registered as a true combo. But you need to take DI into account otherwise it means nothing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But I'm labbing it right now with someone who is mixing up DI with left and right and he is able to airdodge.

If they don't DI it is registered as a true combo. But you need to take DI into account otherwise it means nothing.

More importantly you can follow DI and stay under them right? The key thing is you can actually get followups from D-throw. Hardly matters if it doesn't combo at that point because Link is ludicrously good if he's able to stay directly under his opponent. Half the reason ZSS and Falcon are good characters is because even if you try to DI away from D-throw and they're outside the true combo range, they can still follow your movement and trap you. The angle change on Link's D-throw means even if your opponent DIs, you can still stay under them which keeps you at a huge advantage.

This alone makes Link like TIERS better.

 

[Lawz.]

More importantly you can follow DI and stay under them right? The key thing is you can actually get followups from D-throw. Hardly matters if it doesn't combo at that point because Link is ludicrously good if he's able to stay directly under his opponent.

In order to have it register as a true combo, Link has to do uair immediately. In this case Fox can hold the stick to either side and simply airdodge. Thus rendering it untrue.

But yes, he can actually do stuff out of dthrow now and can possibly wait for a reaction and bait something.

Make sure when you test something, that you also test with DI in every direction. Otherwise you are simply going to spread misinformation. And we don't like when you spread misinformation here at the Link boards. Just keep this in mind.

EDIT: The difference between Link and Falcon/ZSS are substantial. He cannot rival their speed (both ground and aerial) as well as their clearly superior frame data. Link getting some range on his grab and a semi useful dthrow does not warrant any type of comparison between these two characters.

They are nice buffs, but he needs a lot more than this to be "moving up the tiers"

 

[A2ZOMG]

And you would honestly be a fool to downplay the value of an 85 degree angle throw that actually leaves Link at a noticeable frame advantage when he has some of the most damaging lingering hitboxes in the game for punishing things that are directly above him. I know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's pretty clear to me that Link is now a good character now that you can't turtle in midrange against him.

Previously you would have to use U-throw for similar shenanigans, but the frame advantage on that is way worse and you also don't want to stale it at high percents in emergencies, now that you don't have to stale U-throw to be put in even better win positions from grabs, Link is amazing.

 

[Lawz.]

And you would honestly be a fool to downplay the value of an 85 degree angle throw that actually leaves Link at a noticeable frame advantage when he has some of the most damaging lingering hitboxes in the game for punishing things that are directly above him. I know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's pretty clear to me that Link is now a good character now that you can't turtle in midrange against him.

Previously you would have to use U-throw for similar shenanigans, but the frame advantage on that is way worse and you also don't want to stale it at high percents in emergencies, now that you don't have to stale U-throw to be put in even better win positions from grabs, Link is amazing.

Don't throw around the term "frame advantage" if you don't have an understanding of the term.

Link isn't a fast enough character to wait for correct DI long enough to get a move out before his opponent. Go play a Sheik who DIs the dthrow in the correct direction and watch yourself get hit by forward air.

 

[Elessar]

How about you leave the theory crafting and gameplay/combo discussions to another thread and only discuss patch changes in this one. That also means, stop talking about the jab cancel unless it is directly related to this patch.

 

[Huggles828]

Link's biggest problem is his ONLY tool to stop turtling in midrange is his grab.

Now that his grab is rewarding, his gameplan actually works. Link does fine in close and long range. In close range, he still has Jab, U-tilt, and Up-smash which are strong and threatening moves. Long range both Bombs and Arrows have to be respected as both of them can be used in ways that beat reaction time. Link's dead zone is midrange where his F-tilt, DA, and Z-air are all slow, and previously he only had a terrible reward Dashgrab to fill in the gap against people who simply waited there.

Pretty sure midrange is Link's STRONGEST area. That's kinda where I tend to space people and I tend to be pretty successful as Link. Link honestly is not that great long range. And if you can't react to a bomb "long range" then I'd have to say you need to work on your own reaction time. You're never going to run into a situation in a tourney match where you're going to be given the time to just sit there and fully charge an arrow. They're good angling them off the edge (and I'll give you the one time I sit there and fully charge them is occasionally when I've thrown the opponent far off the edge), they're good punishing landings and getups, they're good to scare your opponent, they're good b-reversed in the air, they're not good for running away and charging as a damage dealer.

And yes, the jab loss was huge. It was fast and had OPTIONS. Now it has exactly 1 option: jab 2. The only mixup is the timing of when you're throwing out jab 2. Opponent guesses that right, they get a punish. Before, they had to read if you were gonna jab 2, tilt/smash, grab, run away, shield, etc. You lose all those options, and you needed them against rush down characters because guess what? They rush you down and force you into CQC, so the loss of all those options was crippling to our MUs against characters like Fox or Sonic.

And yes, the grab buff is awesome, and helps tremendously, as does the usmash buff. These will tremendously help Link and bump up his placement. I think he's potentially midtier material again. But he's definitely not high tier material. Frankly, Sheik alone guarantees he will never be high tier material (unless she gets the Diddy treatment and gets nerfed to oblivion). Link's grab now has legit range, but it's still slow and still hella laggy (although admittedly better). Let's not go treating it like it's going to singlehandedly revolutionize his MUs though; it's still risky and always has been.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't throw around the term "frame advantage" if you don't have an understanding of the term.

Link isn't a fast enough character to wait for correct DI long enough to get a move out before his opponent. Go play a Sheik who DIs the dthrow in the correct direction and watch yourself get hit by forward air.

Your opponent has less time to react to what you do from D-throw compared to U-throw. Jumping out of D-throw setups is way worse than jumping out of U-throw setups for instance, because the frame advantage on D-throw is better and thus keeps you in a better position as you try to follow up. This means your opponent either has to airdodge or attack to more viably contest the followup, as you've been pretty much confirming.

Pretty sure midrange is Link's STRONGEST area. That's kinda where I tend to space people and I tend to be pretty successful as Link. Link honestly is not that great long range. And if you can't react to a bomb "long range" then I'd have to say you need to work on your own reaction time. You're never going to run into a situation in a tourney match where you're going to be given the time to just sit there and fully charge an arrow. They're good angling them off the edge (and I'll give you the one time I sit there and fully charge them is occasionally when I've thrown the opponent far off the edge), they're good punishing landings and getups, they're good to scare your opponent, they're good b-reversed in the air, they're not good for running away and charging as a damage dealer.

And yes, the jab loss was huge. It was fast and had OPTIONS. Now it has exactly 1 option: jab 2. The only mixup is the timing of when you're throwing out jab 2. Opponent guesses that right, they get a punish. Before, they had to read if you were gonna jab 2, tilt/smash, grab, run away, shield, etc. You lose all those options, and you needed them against rush down characters because guess what? They rush you down and force you into CQC, so the loss of all those options was crippling to our MUs against characters like Fox or Sonic.

And yes, the grab buff is awesome, and helps tremendously, as does the usmash buff. These will tremendously help Link and bump up his placement. I think he's potentially midtier material again. But he's definitely not high tier material. Frankly, Sheik alone guarantees he will never be high tier material (unless she gets the Diddy treatment and gets nerfed to oblivion). Link's grab now has legit range, but it's still slow and still hella laggy (although admittedly better). Let's not go treating it like it's going to singlehandedly revolutionize his MUs though; it's still risky and always has been.

Okay, midrange for Link works like this. Your opponent literally just waits and SHIELDS REACTIVELY outside of your Jab range. Link can do nothing to force them to budge or even be afraid because literally every single thing you do at this range that isn't Bomb toss takes longer than 15 frames.

Except Grab, that is. Link has extremely limited options in midrange, and he depends heavily on grab to simply get his opponent to stop shielding in neutral. Sucks a lot when your ONE options for your dead zone is both super risky and low reward.

Link is BEST in CLOSE and LONG range, where he actually has options that beat reaction time that also happen to be quite rewarding. Once you're between the range where he can pull a Bomb safely and the range where Link can reach you with his Jab, he sucks at hitting you with anything that isn't Grab. This is exactly why the Fox and Sheik matchups are bloody terrible for Link, because you just get owned in your dead zone repeatedly when your punishes in midrange just suck and they camp you just outside of where you can feasibly hurt them.

And now Link actually has amazing damage building combos on them from D-throw and KO setups (D-throw U-smash is at least 20 damage and works on both of them). That's a HUGE change for those matchups.

 

[Lawz.]

Your opponent has less time to react to what you do from D-throw compared to U-throw. Jumping out of D-throw setups is way worse than jumping out of U-throw setups for instance, because the frame advantage on D-throw is better and thus keeps you in a better position as you try to follow up. This means your opponent either has to airdodge or attack to more viably contest the followup, as you've been pretty much confirming.

Okay, midrange for Link works like this. Your opponent literally just waits and SHIELDS REACTIVELY outside of your Jab range. Link can do nothing to force them to budge or even be afraid because literally every single thing you do at this range that isn't Bomb toss takes longer than 15 frames.

Except Grab, that is. Link has extremely limited options in midrange, and he depends heavily on grab to simply get his opponent to stop shielding in neutral.

Link is BEST in CLOSE and LONG range, where he actually has options that beat reaction time that also happen to be quite rewarding. Once you're between the range where he can pull a Bomb safely and the range where Link can reach you with his Jab, he sucks at hitting you with anything that isn't Grab. This is exactly why the Fox and Sheik matchups are bloody terrible for Link, because you just get owned in your dead zone repeatedly when your punishes in midrange just suck and they camp you just outside of where you can feasibly hurt them.

And now Link actually has amazing damage building combos on them from D-throw and KO setups. That's a HUGE change for those matchups.

Technically only the fastest fallers have to commit. Anyone else can jump away.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Technically only the fastest fallers have to commit. Anyone else can jump away.

If they're floaty though, that gives you more time to get back to the ground either way to maintain pressure. Probably D-throw makes a little less of a difference against someone like Yoshi, but I don't recall that matchup being notably terrible for Link. Having big damage building combos out of throws against Fox and Sheik who are undeniably some of Link's worst matchups is a really huge deal in contrast especially since grab is one of few things they sorta have to think twice to space around in midrange.

 

[DUKEL]

I'm finding it easer to sweetspot our dair - which doesn't spike, but deals 18% and can kill at around 125% without DI.

I actually don't remember our dair being able to deal 18% ever, but I'm probably wrong on that point.

Also I'm seeing some differences in Link's Spin Attack. More wobble when grounded, and it possibly comes out quicker, too.

 

[8MAN]

If they're floaty though, that gives you more time to get back to the ground either way to maintain pressure. Probably D-throw makes a little less of a difference against someone like Yoshi, but I don't recall that matchup being notably terrible for Link. Having big damage building combos out of throws against Fox and Sheik who are undeniably some of Link's worst matchups is a really huge deal in contrast especially since grab is one of few things they sorta have to think twice to space around in midrange.

Yoshi actually has a pretty significant adavantage over Link :/
@ DUKEL As soon as dair no longer spikes, it will do 18%, it's always been like that.

 

[Drigo Toes]

I'm finding it easer to sweetspot our dair - which doesn't spike, but deals 18% and can kill at around 125% without DI.

I actually don't remember our dair being able to deal 18% ever, but I'm probably wrong on that point.

It was possible before patch... I do it in a regular basis. It is just placebo effect I think